Unleashed Daytime Gameplay: Good or Bad?

[jeremycarrier]

Tough how else should you do it in a 3d Sonic game?

Not even Sega has managed to answer that question correctly!

[Diogenes]

I think the point being made is that the Unleashed formula is very much capable of having platforming exist alongside the speed sections (if you want to make the argument that the speed sections aren't platforming, but that's a conversation for another day), and that its reputation as being nothing but "X = win" is a bit undeserved in that regard.

But that's always been hyperbole, and really obvious hyperbole. No one with any sense is going to say there is literally no platforming in Unleashed; the point is that there isn't enough, and/or what there is isn't good enough. Showing that Unleashed has platforms that you need to jump on isn't going to convince anyone of anything, because no one thinks it doesn't.

[Scar]

But that's always been hyperbole, and really obvious hyperbole. No one with any sense is going to say there is literally no platforming in Unleashed; the point is that there isn't enough, and/or what there is isn't good enough. Showing that Unleashed has platforms that you need to jump on isn't going to convince anyone of anything, because no one thinks it doesn't.

I'm sure there are ways you can improve the platforming challenges and puzzles, but I don't really see how you can improve "jumping from one platform to another"

That example in Dragon Road is the most basic of the platforming in Unleashed. There is a bit more involving platforming later in that stage, and the platforming in Eggmanland is up there with the best.

[jeremycarrier]

Not all "jumping from one platform to another" is created equal. I think a platformer has really succeeded when the simple act of jumping from platform to platform is an engaging act(see: various Mario games, most of the recent Prince of Persia games except 2008, Donkey Kong Country Returns).

[Ferno]

*sigh* Ya hear that Sonic Team? We've been asking for burgers for years only for you to keep giving us chicken sandwiches, and ya finally give us what we want, and whadaya do? You forgot the ketchup. You lazy bums, GO BACK AND FIX IT AGAIN! >

*mumblegrumble*

Edited May 15, 2011 by Inferno

[Sami]

*sigh* Ya hear that Sonic Team? We've been asking for burgers for years only for you to keep giving us chicken sandwiches, and ya finally give us what we want, and whadaya do? You forgot the ketchup. You lazy bums, GO BACK AND FIX IT AGAIN! >

*mumblegrumble*

I will never cease to be amazed by the compatibility of gaming and food analogies. Seriously. They're made for each other. :'D

[lounge]

Tough Final Rush is not really plattforming.It's more like momentum based grinding and doing tricks. I don't see which type of plattforming you would like in Sonic, in Adventure when you jump from plattform to plattform you don't carry any momentum despite at which speed he's running at, in Unleashed he does carry momentum more realisticilly.

You know the parts in Final Rush where you're jumping and constantly grinding upward on these rail columns, well if you home attack the rails with the right speed and press A at the right moment you could gain some serious height and skip some platforms, and so on. This is fun platforming because of how much an effect your height can have based on your speed and timing.

Also, I'd just like to point out that Sonic's physics have never ever been realistic. Even in the Classic games. You know those half-pipes from Spring Yard Zone? Yeah well, if Sonic had realistic physics, then you would ot be able to gain height by rolling up and down the sides. You'd only ever go as high as the height you fell in from. In fact, if they had realistic drag and friction, then you would actually lose height from rolling.

You know when you make video games you have to sometimes go beyond the rules of physics in order to have fun. They still feel realistic in the sense with momentum and depending on how hard you hit something when you fall down you'll be bounced up at different speeds.

SA2 has even less logical physics. Firstly, you can turn 90 degrees on a dime, whilst travelling at maximum speed. Inertia doesn't work that way. If SA2 had any realism in the physics, then Sonic would arc from side to side, with shallow turning angles. Additionally, the whole concept of the homing attack defies physics anyway. The jumping in SA2 actually competely cancels any and all inertia Sonic has and he floats in the air, as if he's on the moon.

It's not like it's a sharp 90 degree turn (like in Sonic 06), but still being able to turn sharply like that in SA 1 & 2 adds more precision to the controls because he actually slows down while doing it which makes it easier to avoid hitting something or fall off a cliff. Also it's easier to collect rings or explore an area like that.

Can you imagine how hard it would be to explore the treasure hunting levels if Knux and Rouge turned in wide arcs when moving at fast speeds?

[Scar]

You know when you make video games you have to sometimes go beyond the rules of physics in order to have fun. They still feel realistic in the sense with momentum and depending on how hard you hit something when you fall down you'll be bounced up at different speeds.

Well, that's not realistic then is it? Also, I cannot stress enough how Sonic Unleashed has MUCH better physics than the SA1 and SA2.

Also the last part makes no sense....

It's not like it's a sharp 90 degree turn (like in Sonic 06), but still being able to turn sharply like that in SA 1 & 2 adds more precision to the controls because he actually slows down while doing it which makes it easier to avoid hitting something or fall off a cliff. Also it's easier to collect rings or explore an area like that.

Can you imagine how hard it would be to explore the treasure hunting levels if Knux and Rouge turned in wide arcs when moving at fast speeds?

He does the same thing in Unleashed. If you turn a really tight corner without drifting, Sonic slows down considerably.

Also, I get frustrated by SA2's controls because Sonic keeps twitching, there is no smoothness, no fluidity in his movement. Unleashed has much more heavier controls, that feel much smoother to me. Still needs refinement, but so does everything really.

Best compormise is combining the two.

Also, I disliked the idea for treasure hunting in the first place. I'd rather have Knuckles playing in Sonic-esque stages, but with different routes that are linked in with Knuckles' extra strength and gliding abilities. Emerald hunting can go fuck itself. That kind of stuff is better suited to much slower platformers like Mario, and I don't want to see Knuckles reduced to being that slow.

The only problem with Unleashed was the Air-boost that kept fucking you over (that looks to be resolved in Generations), and the slipperly low-speed controls and questionable deceleration.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Scar

[Kuzu]

YA know I'm convinced we're complaining to complaining at this point. People say Unleashed has no platforming? We show them platforming. Then people complain its not "Real" platforming, what the fuck is real platforming? Its jumping from one platform to another, how complicated does it have to be?

[lounge]

Well, that's not realistic then is it?

You can say the same thing about any video game. (mario's jumping heights, the characters in super smash bros flying away when you hit them) Those games wouldn't have been fun if you couldn't do those things.

Sonic Unleashed wasn't designed to be a fun platformer was what I was trying to say about Chun Nan Act 3. The game was made for speed.

[Kuzu]

You can say the same thing about any video game. (mario's jumping heights, the characters in super smash bros flying away when you hit them) Those games wouldn't have been fun if you couldn't do those things.

Sonic Unleashed wasn't designed to be a fun platformer was what I was trying to say about Chun Nan Act 3. The game was made for speed.

.....So Sega made a game with the intention of us NOT having fun? good Night everybody.

[lounge]

.....So Sega made a game with the intention of us NOT having fun? good Night everybody.

No no. I didn't mean the genre. I meant litterally jumping from one platform to another.

[Diogenes]

Well, that's not realistic then is it?

True, but perfect realism is no good for Sonic. The key, I think, is to take something from actual physics (like "things go fast when they roll downhill") and tweak and exaggerate them, even if it goes against actual physics, to make them more fun (like "you can gain speed by rolling back and forth in a halfpipe").

YA know I'm convinced we're complaining to complaining at this point. People say Unleashed has no platforming? We show them platforming. Then people complain its not "Real" platforming, what the fuck is real platforming? Its jumping from one platform to another, how complicated does it have to be?

Come on, man. You can understand that not all platformers are equal, right? That some are good and some are bad? That simply having platforms to jump on does not make a platformer a good platformer?

[Kuzu]

No no. I didn't mean the genre. I meant litterally jumping from one platform to another.

If that was the case they wouldn't have put the platforms there to begin with.

[Scar]

You can say the same thing about any video game. (mario's jumping heights, the characters in super smash bros flying away when you hit them) Those games wouldn't have been fun if you couldn't do those things.

That's not my point. You said "realistic" at first, which was wrong. I merely pointed that out.

Sonic Unleashed wasn't designed to be a fun platformer was what I was trying to say about Chun Nan Act 3. The game was made for speed.

Huh?

Sonic Unleashed wasn't designed to be a fun platformer, it was made for speed? That makes no sense.

Sonic Unleashed most certainly was designed to be a fun platformer. In fact it contains a lot of "fun" platforming in it. More than it is usually given credit for. All games are designed to be fun as well, so I don't know where you're going with this?

True, but perfect realism is no good for Sonic. The key, I think, is to take something from actual physics (like "things go fast when they roll downhill") and tweak and exaggerate them, even if it goes against actual physics, to make them more fun (like "you can gain speed by rolling back and forth in a halfpipe").

Going for perfect realism wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was just picking a flaw in his statement. He said he enjoyed the realistic momentum (or something to that effect) in SA2's Final Rush. The momentum is obviously not realistic, so I was just pointing out how they weren't.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Scar

[lounge]

If that was the case they wouldn't have put the platforms there to begin with.

Well I meant they didn't design the speed stages so that it was 50% boost and 50% platforming. When they made sonic's movements and controls in Unleashed, they didn't really have in mind an equal amount of precise platforming with an equal amount of speed. That's why I said the platforming in Chun Nan act 3 didn't look all that special to me.

Going for perfect realism wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was just picking a flaw in his statement. He said he enjoyed the realistic momentum (or something to that effect) in SA2's Final Rush. The momentum is obviously not realistic, so I was just pointing out how they weren't.

I never said realistic momentum. I was saying how depending on how fast your going and your timing when doing tricks, you'll go farther and higher.

[Nepenthe]

But that's always been hyperbole, and really obvious hyperbole. No one with any sense is going to say there is literally no platforming in Unleashed; the point is that there isn't enough, and/or what there is isn't good enough. Showing that Unleashed has platforms that you need to jump on isn't going to convince anyone of anything, because no one thinks it doesn't.

You've misconstrued the point. The statement the video was posted as a rebuttal against wasn't "Unleashed has no platforming", but "The formula cannot support platforming." There are entire levels in Unleashed composed of nothing but traditional platforming as demonstrated by the video, and again, it's arguable that the daytime gameplay is technically platforming anyways. Whether it's good or not or enough for you in Unleashed is irrelevant; the above means that any such grievances can be addressed by messing with and improving the formula, not that the formula is inherently incompatible with the type of platforming you desire and that it, as you said elsewhere, needs to have its head put on a pike to serve as a reminder.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Nepenthe

[ChikaBoing]

You know the parts in Final Rush where you're jumping and constantly grinding upward on these rail columns, well if you home attack the rails with the right speed and press A at the right moment you could gain some serious height and skip some platforms, and so on. This is fun platforming because of how much an effect your height can have based on your speed and timing.

Yeh I know, and that's why I said it's not really plattforming but momentum based grinding. Unleashed has physics(imagine air-boosting on a rail) that would be capable of something like that if there would be a level with those rail columns.