Unleashed Daytime Gameplay: Good or Bad?

[ChikaBoing]

Move the other way? Okay, it's too bad I don't see the thing collapsing in time to turn enough to avoid it. And is that thing going to collapse towards the left or the right? I don't have a clue, and I'm expected to memorize the patterns of all of those things? Not to mention there's so many other things going on in that stage you're probably going to be dying for. You don't get to stop on water because if you do, you're dead. You can't drift, because your thumb is smack dab on the X button to boost in areas that require you to really turn to avoid the obstacles. When you're boosting, it's hard to turn because physics won't aloud that kind of turning at such high speeds. Nothing wrong with the physics, but this is the level design. Adabat is an insane level. There's way too many things to focus on at once in the ocean. You have possibly bombs exploding inside the ocean causing water spouts. And also, it's not linear, so you actually have to try and find your way on where to go next, WHILE BOOSTING AT THE SAME TIME. And you expect me to notice a building collapsing while doing all of this? I'm sorry, I don't like linearity, but I don't want level design like that either where there's just way too much going on.

You can drift with the trigger buttons. Also it's easier to move Sonic on the water, if you control him like a car, meaning pressing X as an accelerator and move Sonic left and right.

[Nepenthe]

Move the other way? Okay, it's too bad I don't see the thing collapsing in time to turn enough to avoid it.

Anticipatory action: The structures fatally crack and throw dust and water into the air before falling. This happens well before you're even under the things. And no, this isn't some Sonic Team-exclusive what-the-hellery either. Anticipation is a gaming standard.

And is that thing going to collapse towards the left or the right? I don't have a clue, and I'm expected to memorize the patterns of all of those things?

This isn't some Da Vinci Code level of pattern observation we're talking about. When you encounter the structures, they're on the opposite side of where they'll fall, otherwise there'd be no point. Really, did you need this pointed out to you?

Not to mention there's so many other things going on in that stage you're probably going to be dying for. You don't get to stop on water because if you do, you're dead.

The only other thing going on at that particular moment in time are the water spouts which also happen before you're right under them.

You can't drift, because your thumb is smack dab on the X button to boost in areas that require you to really turn to avoid the obstacles.

Uh, yes, you can drift on water. Assuming you played the 360 version, the drift is relegated to the triggers and not any of the face buttons, so that raises two pertinent questions: Who the hell uses their thumb to drift and not their index finger, and how in the world are you holding the controller?

When you're boosting, it's hard to turn because physics won't aloud that kind of turning at such high speeds.

You don't have to turn like a cheetah to be able to gently guide Sonic out of the way of appropriate obstacles. I can go through the water spouts just with the control stick's help.

Nothing wrong with the physics, but this is the level design. Adabat is an insane level. There's way too many things to focus on at once in the ocean. You have possibly bombs exploding inside the ocean causing water spouts. And also, it's not linear, so you actually have to try and find your way on where to go next, WHILE BOOSTING AT THE SAME TIME. And you expect me to notice a building collapsing while doing all of this? I'm sorry, I don't like linearity, but I don't want level design like that either where there's just way too much going on.

A group of water spouts and a few collapsing buildings? Yes indeed, that's certainly a clusterfuck of activity that is impossible for the human mind to discern. And yes, I expect you to notice one of the tallest structures around about to fall on your head. I don't claim to be some hardcore gamer, but for Pete's sake, even I got around those my first try without luck because I saw it coming and reacted to the situation accordingly. I've died more times boosting on the docks in the beginning than I did in all of the game's water segments combined.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Nepenthe

[RidersDX]

Anticipatory action: The structures fatally crack and throw dust and water into the air before falling. This happens well before you're even under the things. And no, this isn't some Sonic Team-exclusive what-the-hellery either. Anticipation is a gaming standard.

I don't think the dust is that noticeable. Everytime I play that stage, there's this one building that starts falling right when it's too late to slow down and turn enough to avoid it. It's situations like those that make me really wish I had Colors' double jump.

This isn't some Da Vinci Code level of pattern observation we're talking about. When you encounter the structures, they're on the opposite side of where they'll fall, otherwise there'd be no point. Really, did you need this pointed out to you?

So what if they fall, and there's no where to turn because the thing is covering the entire path? Jump? When I try to jump, it's usually not high enough.

The only other thing going on at that particular moment in time are the water spouts which also happen before you're right under them.

What if they happen right in front of you and you're boosting too fast to notice in time and turn? I could try Chikia's suggestion and just keep pressing the X button I suppose.

Uh, yes, you can drift on water. Assuming you played the 360 version, the drift is relegated to the triggers and not any of the face buttons, so that raises two pertinent questions: Who the hell uses their thumb to drift and not their index finger, and how in the world are you holding the controller?

I forgot about the triggers, you can call me an idiot on that one. But if I were to try to drift, I'd hit one of those conveniently placed pink balls on the side, get pushed back, and while I try to figure out how to get back on track, Sonic drowns.

You don't have to turn like a cheetah to be able to gently guide Sonic out of the way of appropriate obstacles. I can go through the water spouts just with the control stick's help.

Water spouts are usually not a big problem for me. It's just overwhelming to see the amount of things going on that yes, I do tend to lose focus, which leads to death over and over again. Hot dog missions were when I really noticed this.

A group of water spouts and a few collapsing buildings? Yes indeed, that's certainly a clusterfuck of activity that is impossible for the human mind to discern. And yes, I expect you to notice one of the tallest structures around about to fall on your head. I'm don't claim to be some hardcore gamer, but for Pete's sake, even I got around those my first try without luck, because I saw it coming and reacted to the situation accordingly. I've died more times boosting on the docks in the beginning than I did in any of the game's ocean segments.

You forget to mention that you have to find your own way to get to the next part, which is not as easy to do while boosting as you may think. There's also buildings, beaches, enemies, docks, pink balls (whatever they're called), and of course you can't forget the sometimes loathsome framerate. I just think there's too much going on here, and taking in all of this while boosting to try not to die in the water is a bit challenging.

[Scar]

Watch this. Surely it can't be that hard. I mean there is barely anything there and there is plenty of notice before anything actually happens. Not to mention there are arrows that appear on-screen to tell you where to go.

In fact Jungle Joyride Day is one of the best, if not the best Unleashed stages. If it weren't for the terrible framerate, it would be one of my favorite 3D Sonic stages because its simply gorgeous and is well designed to boot.

[Nepenthe]

I don't think the dust is that noticeable. Everytime I play that stage, there's this one building that starts falling right when it's too late to slow down and turn enough to avoid it. It's situations like those that make me really wish I had Colors' double jump.

Then you stay out of the way or drift. If you know where it's falling, how are you repeatedly getting killed by it?

So what if they fall, and there's no where to turn because the thing is covering the entire path? Jump? When I try to jump, it's usually not high enough.

That means you ran so far into the danger zone that you're going to die regardless of what you do, which is your fault. Again, you have the ocean to run in.

What if they happen right in front of you and you're boosting too fast to notice in time and turn? I could try Chikia's suggestion and just keep pressing the X button I suppose.

They don't happen right in front of you. They start falling well before you even reach them.

I forgot about the triggers, you can call me an idiot on that one. But if I were to try to drift, I'd hit one of those conveniently placed pink balls on the side, get pushed back, and while I try to figure out how to get back on track, Sonic drowns.

You forgot about the triggers? What button where you using to drift then???

And the pink balls (buoys) are pretty much so far out of the way in the areas where these obstacles in question occur that I don't know where you're even going. Seriously, at this point, I can't even picture how in the world you are playing this stage and I S-Rank that sucker in my sleep all the time.

Water spouts are usually not a big problem for me. It's just overwhelming to see the amount of things going on that yes, I do tend to lose focus, which leads to death over and over again. Hot dog missions were when I really noticed this.

Then we can conclude that this part of Adabat isn't really cheap design, but your inability to focus on the primary obstacles throughout the game.

You forget to mention that you have to find your own way to get to the next part, which is not as easy to do while boosting as you may think. There's also buildings, beaches, enemies, docks, pink balls (whatever they're called), and of course you can't forget the sometimes loathsome framerate. I just think there's too much going on here, and taking in all of this while boosting to try not to die in the water is a bit challenging.

There are arrows that occur at the top of the screen that guide your way towards the next major bit of land, so you don't have to find your way so much as follow the directions.

The beaches with enemies on them are so small and insignificant that most people tend to boost through them in less than a second before they're back on water. The docks are... well, I mean, I don't know how such static imagery is a full-blown distraction, and again, the buoys seem so removed from the obstacle-laden areas that they shouldn't even be called into question. In fact, what I said about the docks rings true for most of what you said: I can't recall a time where the small enemy-laden islands distracted my eyes away from the center of the screen where there were explosions and collapses going on right in front of me.

[JezMM]

That player in the video up there was at full speed and the first pillar had long sunk into the water before they reached it. It was a warning with regards to the next one coming rather than a true obstacle - and that one even if it did get you, you can avoid by either going to the very right or slowing down on your next attempt.

Your claim that you have to replay the stage "100 times" before you hope of finishing it was a ridiculous exaggeration, honestly.

Edited May 1, 2011 by JezMM

[BlazingTales]

To be honest, I had plenty of trouble with Jungle Joyride's water sections as well. I have little trouble with Arid Sands' collapsing architecture or Dragon Road's water sections, but Jungle Joyride is the death of me. On several occasions I would get hit by a water spout or falling pillar due to me focusing so much on one hazard I wouldn't see the next one coming, or I would jump or boost at the wrong time, causing me to loose/gain too much speed and die, or occasionally I would be killed because of a dreadful drop of framerate. Additionally, on many playthroughs I would literally loose track of where I was supposed to go, run out of boost and subsequently drown. In Sonic games, open level plans tend to lead to my death. XP

Edited May 1, 2011 by BlazingTales

[Sami]

To be honest, I had plenty of trouble with Jungle Joyride's water sections as well. I have little trouble with Arid Sands' collapsing architecture or Dragon Road's water sections, but Jungle Joyride is the death of me. On several occasions I would get hit by a water spout or falling pillar due to me focusing so much on one hazard I wouldn't see the next one coming, or I would jump or boost at the wrong time, causing me to loose/gain too much speed and die, or occasionally I would be killed because of a dreadful drop of framerate. Additionally, on many playthroughs I would literally loose track of where I was supposed to go, run out of boost and subsequently drown. In Sonic games, open level plans tend to lead to my death. XP

Funny, I can blaze through the water section without a second thought, but those falling pillars are the bane of my existence. XD

[Nepenthe]

I think it's safe to say everyone here has died on a water section. I've drowned millions of times on Cool Edge act 2, (Man, what a night that was trying to beat that level <3), I've run into the large rocks on Dragon Road because I sucked at drifting, and I've missed the little path you're supposed to take at the end of the second water-running section in Jungle Joyride more times than should be allowed by a braggart. I don't mean to argue that they're easy but that they're fair.

As for the very last pillar in Jungle Joyride, the one right before you hit land and have to stomp the switch, I actually have to drift around the back end of it so it falls to my left side because of how I enter that stretch of water. It's probably an extreme solution to the problem, but it gets the job done.

[Sami]

I think it's safe to say everyone here has died on a water section. I've drowned millions of times on Cool Edge act 2, (Man, what a night that was trying to beat that level <3), I've run into the large rocks on Dragon Road because I sucked at drifting, and I've missed the little path you're supposed to take at the end of the second water-running section in Jungle Joyride more times than should be allowed by a braggart. I don't mean to argue that they're easy but that they're fair.

As for the very last pillar in Jungle Joyride, the one right before you hit land and have to stomp the switch, I actually have to drift around the back end of it so it falls to my left side because of how I enter that stretch of water. It's probably an extreme solution to the problem, but it gets the job done.

I just jump over the debris and air dash so that I don't drown when I land back on the water.

[Djawed]

Why I liked sonic colors over sonic unleashed was basicaly because of that fake difficulty argument. Apart from a few pieces, they did away with the bad straightforward boost encouraging level design. Slowed down the boost making the boost gauge drain faster and filling it up wasn't done by picking up the many rings scattered throughout the stages.

Basically sonic colors did right what everyone was arguing about a few pages back about it being normal and "fun" for sonic game to be built around trial and error.

[Voyant]

Why I liked sonic colors over sonic unleashed was basicaly because of that fake difficulty argument. Apart from a few pieces, they did away with the bad straightforward boost encouraging level design. Slowed down the boost making the boost gauge drain faster and filling it up wasn't done by picking up the many rings scattered throughout the stages.

Basically sonic colors did right what everyone was arguing about a few pages back about it being normal and "fun" for sonic game to be built around trial and error.

I can't believe that I saying this, but I actually agree with you. I did like the fact that the boost was more of a thing you had to earn in Colors, I was hoping to see that style return, but its not SO bad that I'd call generations a de-evloution. Not by the long shot.

Perhaps the boost will have different meaning in the way its played to go around who knows, and if its not then its no biggie either. I enjoy Sonic Unleashed more because even though it was less complicated than Colors it provides a thrill ride like no other...which I like. I can see how colors can get a bit forgettable after a while...much like Sonic CD.

Won't know till we get more footage.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Voyant

[Nepenthe]

It's fine making the boost more difficult to spam, but in a game where it's pretty much useless in lieu of the title's platforming and exploration-centric goals, it didn't really matter how they did the boost, now did it?

[Voyant]

It's fine making the boost more difficult to spam, but in a game where it's pretty much useless in lieu of the title's platforming and exploration-centric goals, it didn't really matter how they did the boost, now did it?

that's true as well...I think people would be happier if when Sonic was boosting he was doing a spin dash. In today's world its all about how something looks instead about how something plays.

That's why Classic Sonic is being thrown around in the end it really shouldn't MATTER, but it sadly it does to some people to EXTREME proportions.

[The Weeb with No Name]

It doesn't make me feel very involved in the action.

[Sonowske]

While the use of the Hedgehog Engine in Sonic Unleashed's daytime levels gives the feeling that they are something that is exhilarating and something that gets you very involved, it is not very in-depth for the overall gameplay, however. The main incentive for the levels is just to run at top speed through linear type of levels that are just filled with pitfalls and traps. It offers no in-depth experiences, such as platforming, fighting between enemies, exploration of different locations in the stage to perhaps find items, upgrades, etc. It is too fast for any platforming, for the shear fact that we do not have the necessary reflexes to be able to keep up with the speed and be able to jumps through the platforms. The enemies in the daytime stages only exist to be killed by being blasted through, or to be jumped at; they are nothing more than pins in Sonic's way that just takes one boost to destroy them all. Though these problems existed, the Unleashed daytimes stages are really fun, very exhilarating, and they give a great sense of accomplishment. However, it wouldn't hurt to try something new, such as a gameplay that doesn't necessarily play so fast, but gives the feeling that you are playing fast.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Sonowske

[Phos]

I feel as though the Unleashed paradigm has become so ingrained that a lot of people have a hard time visualizing anything in a way that isn't relative to or dependent on it. A level doesn't have to be made up of extremely discrete routes that exist solely as alternatives to one another. A level can be defined by areas, not just by lines.

I have beaten Demon's Souls. Five times. Doesn't deserve any less, considering it's the best game I've ever played.

right on.

I didn't go through the whole game without boosting, but I did try to play it like SA2 once or twice on a few levels. I didn't see any problem with it.

Then let's use Demon's Souls, since you wanted to bring that up. In Demon's Souls, you need to be cautious, read every warning sign, and take things slow if you want to live. Sprint into every new room and there's a sure chance of dying, whether by pit, enemy, or another trap. For example, when you're fighting the boss of the Valley of Defilement (that priestess), it looks like you can go into the lake and avoid the knight guarding her. Just stay in the shallow part, and you should be fine, right? Wrong. Not only does the liquid lower your HP every second, but it's also littered with the most disgusting little abominations I've ever seen: The plague babies.

Case in point, Demon's Souls had plenty of trial and error as well, but you seem fine with that game. Reason?

Demon's Souls was still deep enough that moving slowly is exciting. Also, it is one of the few times in any media a really dark but not horror themed atmosphere has really worked and had some of the best political symbolism I've ever seen in a game, and had a backstory so well realized that it's practically its own mythology.

I know, I did an X-button rationing run of the whole game just to try it out.

To water run without boost, hold one of the triggers and wiggle the analog stick and snake your way to victory. The problem I ran into a lot was that when you aren't boosting the enemies can hit you from surprisingly far away.

@Tornado or anyone else who feels the same way about cheapness/difficulty.

How exactly do you make a Sonic game, which is centred on speed (don't even try to say its not, because it is, being able to go fast has been Sonic's gimmick from the start) difficult without it being cheap. See going fast has many risks associated with it. Doesn't matter how you build up that speed, its still dangerous. Why? Because you can hit something due to not being able to react fast enough (the risk of things like Formula 1 racing). Well you could say fast segments should not have any obstacles in it, but that's not really good design, because a Sonic game should be able to blend speed seamlessly into the whole level, rather than just having certain parts be fast and other parts be slow.

I'm not being a smartass here, I seriously want to know, because I certainly can't think of anything.

A lot the the danger inherit to speed in the real world doesn't apply to Sonic. Collision with an inanimate surface doesn't hurt him. The only risks to speed are those that are put there by the designer.

1. Stop and go - End a high speed section safely with the start of another near by with some sort of hazard in between. This sort is common in Flying Battery Zone. It's somewhat intellectually cheap (not to be confused with cheap difficulty), though it is still an upgrade.

2. "Bullet Hell" - Hazards that move along with you to some capacity, see the Egg Devil Ray before you realize you can just boost and make this boss a joke.

3. Encourage more rolling - This was really only present in Sonic 1 where the speed cap encouraged the player to roll more, though its applications are limited without the aforementioned cap.

4. and the most important, integrating forms of speed other than running in a straight line. Whether it be a literal straight line or an effective straight line, you can bet that any new Sonic game is going to include a lot of them. But that's not the only way to go fast. Before Springs became scripted (and thus no longer really count for speed), the spring upwards gives the same sensation. The sections in Hydrocity and Labyrinth Zones where Sonic is bulled through the pipe and needs to grab on to stuff to avoid spikes is fast. Even maneuvering with the assistance of the fans in the same level is kinda fast, though that isn't really the focus.

You also have to keep in mind that perception of speed is very much relative and that maintaining the same massive velocity will quickly nullify its effectiveness on its own BUT at the same time making a level slow and fast in strategic ways you can give the sensation regardless.

C'mon Diogenes, we've actually seen alternate routes/multiple acts at this point, based on some new footage with the Modern Corkscrew that isn't in the complete act. They probably aren't aiming at mediocre here.

Green Hill Zone Act 2. Or maybe it's just a 3 second branch that the other video didn't hit.

Out of all the examples of cheapness you probably could have used, you state the Adabat water running sections? Not only do these obstacles enact in plain sight well before you even reach them, giving you plenty of time to react, but all you have to do is drift around or, at least, move away to give the collapses enough of a berth. Even more ironically, in a topic and environment where hallway level design has been condemned, you cite one of the few occasions where Sonic Team gives you the ocean to move around in as bad design. That is one of the obstacles in the game that relies the least on luck.

You see them coming from farther away but the reduced friction evens it out.

You have a lot of room to maneuver, but it all has the potential to kill you. Stray off course and you'll run out of sea and die. That's punishing the player for exploration. I do enjoy exploiting the crap out of the controls in these areas because they're the only ones not paved with boost pads and hidden funnels.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Phos

[Voyant]

While the use of the Hedgehog Engine in Sonic Unleashed's daytime levels gives the feeling that they are something that is exhilarating and something that gets you very involved, it is not very in-depth for the overall gameplay, however. The main incentive for the levels is just to run at top speed through linear type of levels that are just filled with pitfalls and traps. It offers no in-depth experiences, such as platforming, fighting between enemies, exploration of different locations in the stage to perhaps find items, upgrades, etc. It is too fast for any platforming, for the shear fact that we do not have the necessary reflexes to be able to keep up with the speed and be able to jumps through the platforms. The enemies in the daytime stages only exist to be killed by being blasted through, or to be jumped at; they are nothing more than pins in Sonic's way that just takes one boost to destroy them all. Though these problems existed, the Unleashed daytimes stages are really fun, very exhilarating, and they give a great sense of accomplishment However, it wouldn't hurt to try something new, such as a gameplay that doesn't necessarily play so fast, but gives the feeling that you are playing fast.

But see enemies in Sonic where never a PROBLEM to begin with and there have been may times in Unleashed where I have manipulated enemy placement to make my life easier...so I don't think there there just to boost through if you know what your doing. Regardless, most of the times I died in a Sonic game was not do to enemies, but do to obstacles. People say they wanted more interactivity with enemies Sega gave us in Heroes and look how "jarring" that was.

I was never "scarred" or at all viewed enemies as a threat except that Star thing in Metropolis Zone lol. Speeding running stages made it even easier once I memorized enemy placement. regardless bad guys have ALWAYS been just spindash aka (Get-the-fuck-out-of-my-way Bowling Ball Pins) fodder or ways to slightly manipulate your momentum and landing placement. Sonic has always been an Over Powered little fucker XD

Everytime Sega adds enemies that take multiple its to defeat, people complain about it so now Sega rewards you with clearing spindash fodder from your way as long as you maintain momentum (like its always been) and people complain.

(Not directly talking to you speaking in general....you seem like a cool dude XD)

Edited May 2, 2011 by Voyant

[Scar]

I feel as though the Unleashed paradigm has become so ingrained that a lot of people have a hard time visualizing anything in a way that isn't relative to or dependent on it. A level doesn't have to be made up of extremely discrete routes that exist solely as alternatives to one another. A level can be defined by areas, not just by lines.

Its difficult to do this. The problem with having an area, as opposed to discrete routes, is that the level design would be stretched pretty thin. It would reach a point where the level would be an area, not a series of routes, but it would be boring. There would be easy ways of simply skipping challenge, unless you put a massive set of platforms in the way.

See Adabat almost had this "Area" thing going on, but the framerate was completely fucked over as a result. Whilst you could say "Sacrifice visuals for the sake of gameplay", but realistically, Sonic games are also being judged on visuals, just as much as any other game.

Another part of Unleashed that did the whole area business rather well was Crimson Carnival (Eggmanland) in the HD version. The whole first Sonic segment, after the appauling QTE, was just a massive area (hovering over lava) that had a shitload of "routes" tied together almost seamlessly. Again, the framerate suffered as a result.

There is a clear patter of framerate issues this generation, so I guess the only way Eggmanland style platforming levels will only really start coming into their own next generation, when console horsepower is upgraded significantly.

Untill then, we'll have to put up with the best compromise. So I hope at the very least, the levels have as many "Paths" as Skyscraper Scamper.

To water run without boost, hold one of the triggers and wiggle the analog stick and snake your way to victory. The problem I ran into a lot was that when you aren't boosting the enemies can hit you from surprisingly far away.

Well it means that enemies aren't completely useless any more.

A lot the the danger inherit to speed in the real world doesn't apply to Sonic. Collision with an inanimate surface doesn't hurt him. The only risks to speed are those that are put there by the designer.

1. Stop and go - End a high speed section safely with the start of another near by with some sort of hazard in between. This sort is common in Flying Battery Zone. It's somewhat intellectually cheap (not to be confused with cheap difficulty), though it is still an upgrade.

2. "Bullet Hell" - Hazards that move along with you to some capacity, see the Egg Devil Ray before you realize you can just boost and make this boss a joke.

3. Encourage more rolling - This was really only present in Sonic 1 where the speed cap encouraged the player to roll more, though its applications are limited without the aforementioned cap.

4. and the most important, integrating forms of speed other than running in a straight line. Whether it be a literal straight line or an effective straight line, you can bet that any new Sonic game is going to include a lot of them. But that's not the only way to go fast. Before Springs became scripted (and thus no longer really count for speed), the spring upwards gives the same sensation. The sections in Hydrocity and Labyrinth Zones where Sonic is bulled through the pipe and needs to grab on to stuff to avoid spikes is fast. Even maneuvering with the assistance of the fans in the same level is kinda fast, though that isn't really the focus.

You also have to keep in mind that perception of speed is very much relative and that maintaining the same massive velocity will quickly nullify its effectiveness on its own BUT at the same time making a level slow and fast in strategic ways you can give the sensation regardless.

Well, this is difficult in 3D. Primarily because regardless of how good you design the stage, the camera will find ways of fucking you over. If it can happen in Mario Galaxy, it can happen anywhere. I still think the best way forward is to design stages which allow you to be fast through the whole thing if you're good enough, by taking advantage of the level design and gimmicks to essentially cheese your way past obstacles in a skillful way (I don't mean glitching).

Fast segments shouldn't be seperated (Sonic 06) because it really just irritates a game into thinking "Why the fuck wasn't I going this fast the whole time". So it should be said that some areas are easier to go fast in, while others are not. It should be possible to go fast through the entire level, but it shouldn't be easy.

Which is why I think the boost shouldn't be terminated, rather relegated to a powerup, which is a combination of Invincibility and Speed Shoes.

Green Hill Zone Act 2. Or maybe it's just a 3 second branch that the other video didn't hit.

Oh I dunno about 3 second branch, that looked like a pretty massive deviation to me... but we'll see. I'm still not expecting much from the Green Hill, simply because the original 2D level was hardly an abundance of branching paths and outstanding level design. It was a simple entry to the game (and franchise as a whole).

You have a lot of room to maneuver, but it all has the potential to kill you. Stray off course and you'll run out of sea and die. That's punishing the player for exploration. I do enjoy exploiting the crap out of the controls in these areas because they're the only ones not paved with boost pads and hidden funnels.

Well I doubt the game can keep rendering sea and rings in the eventual hope that you'll find your way back. It would actually kill the game. For a series where getting from point A to point B, there has to be a direction. Consoles aren't powerful enough to render massive areas that can be explored and high speeds, where the player can determine his or her own route to the end. People also do not like doing this in patformers, it can get confusing and could result in levels with dense jungle to get really long and arduous.

[Sonowske]

But see enemies in Sonic where never a PROBLEM to begin with and there have been may times in Unleashed where I have manipulated enemy placement to make my life easier...so I don't think there there just to boost through if you know what your doing. Regardless, most of the times I died in a Sonic game was not do to enemies, but do to obstacles. People say they wanted more interactivity with enemies Sega gave us in Heroes and look how "jarring" that was.

I was never "scarred" or at all viewed enemies as a threat except that Star thing in Metropolis Zone lol. Speeding running stages made it even easier once I memorized enemy placement. regardless bad guys have ALWAYS been just spindash aka (Get-the-fuck-out-of-my-way Bowling Ball Pins) fodder or ways to slightly manipulate your momentum and landing placement. Sonic has always been an Over Powered little fucker XD

Everytime Sega adds enemies that take multiple its to defeat, people complain about it so now Sega rewards you with clearing spindash fodder from your way as long as you maintain momentum (like its always been) and people complain.

(Not directly talking to you speaking in general....you seem like a cool dude XD)

lol Heh, thanks.

But yeah, you were right about the enemies never being a problem to begin with in Sonic history. The idea of putting life gauges for enemies was a step in the right direction, in my opinion. But there also needs to be different moves. Give Sonic some cool moves that could totally work to his advantage with enemies that take more time to defeat; make the fighting more intuitive. I don't mind blasting through enemies, but it shouldn't be the cornerstone for defeating enemies. Neither should jumping on them. Add a little more variety and make harder enemies; enemies that actually go out of their way to try and kill Sonic. Be more innovative and give Sonic and the enemies movesets that would provide more interactivity between him the enemies instead of them just being mindless walking trash cans that Eggman builds for no goddamn reason.

[Voyant]

Its difficult to do this. The problem with having an area, as opposed to discrete routes, is that the level design would be stretched pretty thin. It would reach a point where the level would be an area, not a series of routes, but it would be boring. There would be easy ways of simply skipping challenge, unless you put a massive set of platforms in the way.

See Adabat almost had this "Area" thing going on, but the framerate was completely fucked over as a result. Whilst you could say "Sacrifice visuals for the sake of gameplay", but realistically, Sonic games are also being judged on visuals, just as much as any other game.

Another part of Unleashed that did the whole area business rather well was Crimson Carnival (Eggmanland) in the HD version. The whole first Sonic segment, after the appauling QTE, was just a massive area (hovering over lava) that had a shitload of "routes" tied together almost seamlessly. Again, the framerate suffered as a result.

There is a clear patter of framerate issues this generation, so I guess the only way Eggmanland style platforming levels will only really start coming into their own next generation, when console horsepower is upgraded significantly.

Untill then, we'll have to put up with the best compromise. So I hope at the very least, the levels have as many "Paths" as Skyscraper Scamper.

Well it means that enemies aren't completely useless any more.

Well, this is difficult in 3D. Primarily because regardless of how good you design the stage, the camera will find ways of fucking you over. If it can happen in Mario Galaxy, it can happen anywhere. I still think the best way forward is to design stages which allow you to be fast through the whole thing if you're good enough, by taking advantage of the level design and gimmicks to essentially cheese your way past obstacles in a skillful way (I don't mean glitching).

Fast segments shouldn't be seperated (Sonic 06) because it really just irritates a game into thinking "Why the fuck wasn't I going this fast the whole time". So it should be said that some areas are easier to go fast in, while others are not. It should be possible to go fast through the entire level, but it shouldn't be easy.

Which is why I think the boost shouldn't be terminated, rather relegated to a powerup, which is a combination of Invincibility and Speed Shoes.

Oh I dunno about 3 second branch, that looked like a pretty massive deviation to me... but we'll see. I'm still not expecting much from the Green Hill, simply because the original 2D level was hardly an abundance of branching paths and outstanding level design. It was a simple entry to the game (and franchise as a whole).

Well I doubt the game can keep rendering sea and rings in the eventual hope that you'll find your way back. It would actually kill the game. For a series where getting from point A to point B, there has to be a direction. Consoles aren't powerful enough to render massive areas that can be explored and high speeds, where the player can determine his or her own route to the end. People also do not like doing this in patformers, it can get confusing and could result in levels with dense jungle to get really long and arduous.

Adding to Scar's argument with a Visual

A lot of people would love to have this. I would too as a layout, but Imagine allll that land that you can run on. Now fill that land with level design, traps, platforms, details, obstacles that are Sonic Like.

Are you having a hard time doing it?

Cause I sure am and I'm a pretty imaginative person. How do you lay out obstacles and traps in a land this big where it becomes relative to what to what your doing? And how do you fill in this space while still giving a sense of Point A to Point B? How do you create levels?

But lets say you DO figure such things out, how many of these same landscapes with slightly different level design that stretch for MILES would it take for Sonic to go through while still giving people a sense of speed and length, while making things look pretty enough for people to not go "Pshh dem ghrphix suck dude".. How bland would environments need to be so it doesn't fry the system? Old Sonic never GAVE you this much elbow room..,sure you could go left gotcha, but still.

I wish I could run Sonic in surreal setting of the size of New York with Sonic like obstacles and looks, I dream of that, but the only way that's happen if the entire game was just based off my dream level and no one going to be satisfied with 1 level. Consoles don't have the POWER to do such feats to provide such a WIDE terrain to be explored at high speeds and then make 6-8 of them again. Let alone how to keep the game feeling Sonic like...or at all even a platformer.

Unleashed could use some wider terrain sure...but if level like Eggmanland with its hugeness starts making the frame rate drop rendering ALL that terrain...what makes you think that having a game like I mentioned is going to be AT ALL stable enough to be playable.

Even if ST gets better with their tech (like I hope they did with Generations) were not going to see any large level design like that. Not for a "speedy" platfromer like Sonic...at least not this gen.

Its all easier said than done...seriously people need to do some research in gaming and level design.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Voyant

[JezMM]

Funnily enough I think Eggmanland Area 1 in Unleashed HD is probably one of the best examples where they really had a number of alternate routes comparable to the classic 2D games (or Unleashed SD, which I still maintain had GREAT branching paths, even if all of them were just endless highways).

Also relevant example of ALMOST what Voyant is talking about: Sonic's White Acropolis Act 2 on Sonic 2006. After the Tails' sections with the searchlights, you enter that huge open space, and left to your own devices to navigate to the exit. Aside from the awful snowboarding section, I really dig White Acropolis as a level and it's one of the ones I go back to when I do get that odd craving for a blast on 2006. But I remember on my first play it was confusing as hell. They populated it nicely - albeit mostly with enemies rather than platforming - and it's basically a giant navigation puzzle first time you play. Once you know the route it pretty much functions like a linear level with many pointless side routes to explore (or is there multiple ways to the exit? I found one and stuck to it - making my way up one of the snowy cliff plateaus, hitting a spring up onto a grind rail that leads me to the U-bend slope to the exit).

But opinions on this section and whether it was enjoyable and/or well-designed (as far as 2006's standards go anyway) might be a plausible starting point as to whether large open levels can work and be fun.

[Sonowske]

But opinions on this section and whether it was enjoyable and/or well-designed (as far as 2006's standards go anyway) might be a plausible starting point as to whether large open levels can work and be fun.

Something with a Zelda feel might be feasible. Large open environments to venture through and complete many side quests. And then when you're done with the fields, It's time to get to work on the actual levels, and the layout could be linear, but wouldn't necessarily have the feeling as if you had to adapt in such a tedious way, like Unleashed had. Like in the Zelda games, you wouldn't feel as if your closed in when completing the dungeons. The areas were still very much open, but still had a designated path for you to follow.

Something along those lines....

[ChikaBoing]

Wide space where you can run around freely with no restrictive feeling was never a part of Sonic. In the old games every step of the way was filled with varriying terrain, objects and hazards that you need to overcome, Unleashed translates that so far the best from all the 3d games.

[Kuzu]

Wide space where you can run around freely with no restrictive feeling was never a part of Sonic. In the old games every step of the way was filled with varriying terrain, objects and hazards that you need to overcome, Unleashed translates that so far the best from all the 3d games.

But I do understand where the want for more alternate paths comes from however.