Unleashed Daytime Gameplay: Good or Bad?

[ChikaBoing]

But I do understand where the want for more alternate paths comes from however.

Edited May 2, 2011 by ChikaBoing

[Kuzu]

Yes that's what essentially missing,implement that and it would feel really closer to the classics.

[ChikaBoing]

Minus the physics and whatnot, but that's a discussion for another time.

[Nepenthe]

You see them coming from farther away but the reduced friction evens it out.

You have a lot of room to maneuver, but it all has the potential to kill you. Stray off course and you'll run out of sea and die. That's punishing the player for exploration. I do enjoy exploiting the crap out of the controls in these areas because they're the only ones not paved with boost pads and hidden funnels.

[Skull Leader]

IMO and despit being a gameplay more dependent on boosting to achieve speed rather than gain it via momentum, I think it's pretty solid. Onlything that can really make or brake it is the level design, especially the ones from Unleashed where memorization and trial and error is the norm. Luckily Colors corrected in part this issue by giving stages where I can actually rely more on my own skill and reflexes, which provides a far more enjoyable experience.

[Kuzu]

IMO and despit being a gameplay more dependent on boosting to achieve speed rather than gain it via momentum, I think it's pretty solid. Onlything that can really make or brake it is the level design, especially the ones from Unleashed where memorization and trial and error is the norm. Luckily Colors corrected in part this issue by giving stages where I can actually rely more on my own skill and reflexes, which provides a far more enjoyable experience.

The thing about Colors is that the platforming is kind of boring and mostly 2D, while thats all good, It kinda didnt feel like a Sonic platformer.

[Phos]

Its difficult to do this. The problem with having an area, as opposed to discrete routes, is that the level design would be stretched pretty thin. It would reach a point where the level would be an area, not a series of routes, but it would be boring. There would be easy ways of simply skipping challenge, unless you put a massive set of platforms in the way.

See Adabat almost had this "Area" thing going on, but the framerate was completely fucked over as a result. Whilst you could say "Sacrifice visuals for the sake of gameplay", but realistically, Sonic games are also being judged on visuals, just as much as any other game.

Another part of Unleashed that did the whole area business rather well was Crimson Carnival (Eggmanland) in the HD version. The whole first Sonic segment, after the appauling QTE, was just a massive area (hovering over lava) that had a shitload of "routes" tied together almost seamlessly. Again, the framerate suffered as a result.

There is a clear patter of framerate issues this generation, so I guess the only way Eggmanland style platforming levels will only really start coming into their own next generation, when console horsepower is upgraded significantly.

Untill then, we'll have to put up with the best compromise. So I hope at the very least, the levels have as many "Paths" as Skyscraper Scamper.

[JesseProper]

Unleashed Daytime Gameplay: Fun, but frustrating at times.

Colors: Perfect.

They hadn't nailed it yet in Unleashed, but they cleaned it up perfectly in Colors.

HOPEFULLY they won't ruin it in Generations...

[Tobbii]

Unleashed Daytime Gameplay: Fun, but frustrating at times.

Colors: Perfect.

They hadn't nailed it yet in Unleashed, but they cleaned it up perfectly in Colors.

HOPEFULLY they won't ruin it in Generations...

I can't agree, Colours added some more 2D platforming, but completely forgot about the 3D parts of the game.

[Preston]

The jumping in Colors also felt rather wonky in 2D. The classic portion of Generations seems to have it right though.

[Indigo Rush]

I'm all for being allowed to explore a little more in Sonic games, but when the object of the game is to get to the goal as fast as you can, why the heck would the designers waste their time on massive wide-spread architecture when half of the players are just going to focus on getting to the end and not mess around with the rest of the level?

Actually, we already have stuff like this. Sonic Unleashed actually did a very good job of this in levels like Jungle Joyride, Rooftop Run, Arid Sands, well... all of them. You could slow down and look at all the little tables, chairs, corridors, hidden rooms and wide-spread flora, without detracting from the main path. Do we really need anything more than this? Maybe add an alternate route, you say? Unleashed has plenty of that as well! Heck, I spent 40 minutes in Windmill Isle reading the menus and going up and down stairways off the beaten path, backtracking and finding at least 4 different paths to clear the level. The first level.

I can't see these arguments that Sonic needs more of this and that when he already has this and that.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Sion-Ta]

Heck, I spent 40 minutes in Windmill Isle reading the menus and going up and down stairways off the beaten path, backtracking and finding at least 4 different paths to clear the level. The first level.

I can't see these arguments that Sonic needs more of this and that when he already has this and that.

Unleashed had multiple routes, but usually they were quite short and they didn't offer much to the experience beyond one route being slightly shorter than the other. Also you rarely had to look far to find the fastest routes... Levels did gain a lot more depth towards the end mind you, but wouldn't it be nice to see these sort of levels throughout the entire game (or at least the main acts)?

Anyway, Unleashed gameplay. I like it, there's a lot of potential here to produce a fantastic gaming experience. Just need to find a way to combine the exploration of Colours, with Unleashed's thrilling sense of speed and the awesome platforming segments from the DLC packs... and tweak the controls, controls really need a good seeing to. XD;

[jeremycarrier]

I can't agree, Colours added some more 2D platforming, but completely forgot about the 3D parts of the game.

Yeah, it was like some kind of bizarre devolution of Unleashed. Instead of the LB/RB dodging, you have it all controlled on the control stick, which is really unintuitive and a poor choice there. Then there's the drift scenes, which controlled like ass. There's the QTE, which was just "Mash the A button time", with no real challenge necessary. Its like you they got one part of the game right with the controllable speed and the exploration and the platforming and such, but then you got a 3d style that managed to be even worse than Unleashed, which is...well then.

[Scar]

They don't have to be as wide as they are long, they don't even need to be all that wide. They just have to have some area to them. Even "At Dawn" is a major improvement over what we get nowadays.

"At Dawn" was OK, but it was mainly designed for Emerald Hunting, and you could tell that. I still think having discrete, but larger, wider routes would be better, because it allows for a better concentration of level design, platforming and gimmicks. Its not perfect, but so far the closest we have had to that was Eggmanland HD, and I thought that it was perfectly fine. In fact I thought that initial 3D platforming section, was one of the best platforming in any 3D Sonic game.

Camera issues are also why I tend to want to put the camera controls on the triggers, to keep them in reach regardless of what's going on. That said, a smart camera + transparency can deal with most cases. Sonic Team's cameras tend to be very "dumb", they tend to have simple reactions at best to what's going on, and tend to be largely predefined. They also have this tendency to zoom in too close (narrow FoV)at too shallow an angle (limited depth information).

Unleashed sorted this problem out, by having the camera basically fixed behind Sonic, so you can always see where you're going. Which is paramount, in a series which has always been about forward momentum.

That's basically an empty corridor, it's not really too different from what's already in Unleashed.

Yes, but any level where you have to go from point A to Point B, will essentially result in a corridor leading to the end. This is invariable.

[The Man On The Inside]

The problem with Daytime Unleashed HD for many was the fact that there were moments where you were holding X for too long a time. The cause of this is not only in the level design (more about that in a bit), but also due to a balance issue inherent to the boost system. Boost is filled by collecting rings, and because there are hundreds if not thousands of rings in every level it's simply too easy to constantly have full boost. This is exacerbated by the fact that they magnetise towards you, and you destroy enemies during boost as well).

It never once felt as though you actually had to manage the meter; you always "had boost" (there were exceptions to this, don't get me wrong), meaning that it was incredibly shallow. It wasn't something you had to conserve and take care of, you were able to just spam it. To rectify this, could it be made so that rings don't fill the meter as much (or at all?), and boost is filled using some other method? In Generations, it's not just rings that fill boost; but tricks and enemies too, so it seems that Sonic Team were at least aware that the boost system was a bit imbalanced.

The next major issue is the level design, but this ties into the previous issue about boost. Because you always have boost, you are always going fast, and since you are going so fast, you have no way of reacting in time to what the level has to throw at you. Not only that, but the level design is far too precarious as it is. This leads to the memorisation issue and the trial/error gameplay. What I think would be nice in the level designs is to have multiple paths that actually are multiple paths, instead of "3-second branches" e.g. in S1 you could go through GHZ along the bottom of the screen, never see the top, and still finish the stage (this is what is meant by non-linear btw).

So, by refining the boost to make it more of a valuable commodity you actually need to manage, as opposed to what has been maybe-more-than-a-little-cruely-dubbed a "win button", and by allowing players a greater margin for error (e.g. instead of bottomless pit here, have a lower path), you enable players, on their first time through a level, to not die so cheaply; move at a manageable pace; and to explore different paths because wanton boosting would be discouraged.

[Tobbii]

you are always going fast, and since you are going so fast, you have no way of reacting in time to what the level has to throw at you.

Am I the only person who never had that problem? I almost always reacted and managed to avoid the obstacles on my first try, my most common deaths are failing at platforming during certain 2D parts.

[The Man On The Inside]

Then you're just better at the game than most people. Not everyone has good reflexes.

[Sega DogTagz]

It never once felt as though you actually had to manage the meter; you always "had boost" (there were exceptions to this, don't get me wrong), meaning that it was incredibly shallow. It wasn't something you had to conserve and take care of, you were able to just spam it. To rectify this, could it be made so that rings don't fill the meter as much (or at all?), and boost is filled using some other method? In Generations, it's not just rings that fill boost; but tricks and enemies too, so it seems that Sonic Team were at least aware that the boost system was a bit imbalanced.

The next major issue is the level design, but this ties into the previous issue about boost. Because you always have boost, you are always going fast, and since you are going so fast, you have no way of reacting in time to what the level has to throw at you. Not only that, but the level design is far too precarious as it is. This leads to the memorisation issue and the trial/error gameplay.

To me, Unleashed only lent itself to trail-and-error gameplay if that’s they way you chose to play it. If you were to take your time, and navigate the courses as you would when you normally encounter something unfamiliar, than all that memorization stuff goes right out the window. If you hug a new turn at mach 1 only to find a platforming section over a death pit, then I have to feel that you must live with the choice you made.

Think about it this way. If you jump a fence, only to find a very angry dog loose on the other side, then I gotta blame you for jumping the fence and whatever consequences that come with it. Blaming the owner for leaving his dog loose in the yard is faulty.

Unleashed is a platformer. You know obstacles and death-pits are around every corner. It is naturally precarious so you should respect each area accordingly. Just having boost isn’t an incentive to use it recklessly or some divine mandate to spam it. Its just there to issue a challenge to your nads and gaming ability.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Sega DogTagz

[The Man On The Inside]

To me, Unleashed only lent itself to trail-and-error gameplay if that’s they way you chose to play it. If you were to take your time, and navigate the courses as you would when you normally encounter something unfamiliar, than all that memorization stuff goes right out the window. If you hug a new turn at mach 1 only to find a platforming section over a death pit, then I have to feel that you must live with the choice you made.

Think about it this way. If you jump a fence, only to find a very angry dog loose on the other side, then I gotta blame you for jumping the fence and whatever consequences that come with it. Blaming the owner for leaving his dog loose in the yard is faulty.

Unleashed is a platformer. You know obstacles and death-pits are around every corner. It is naturally precarious so you should respect each area accordingly. Just having boost isn’t an incentive to use it recklessly or some divine mandate to spam it. Its just there to issue a challenge to your nads and gaming ability.

You are 100% correct and I agree with you. But Gamespot,IGN,etc. saw the whole thing as "cheap deaths that aren't my fault + werehog = waah." The refinements I suggested would allow for more accessibility, and perhaps even a greater level of understanding (as you have) so they don't feel as cheapened.

[pppp]

The Unleashed Gameplay only needs 2 things in my opinion:

1.A better balance between platforming and speed.

2.Better controls.They felt slippery to me.

[Sion-Ta]

Personally I'd like to see a return of the Sonic Advance 2 boost. With the set up we have now, we've been given an instant top speed move that most people can't even be used effectively until multiple playthroughs, and if you tried to be a dare-devil you'd typically find yourself bumping into obstacles or falling into bottomless pits. Where with the SAdv2 boost, you'd never run that risk as the only way you could even see such speed is by memorizing the levels. With this setup, you get the same sensation of speed Unleashed delivers but with the added bonuses of the boost becoming something that you earn, rather than something that's handed to you... and you won't get people raging because they can't learn to let go of the X Button. The sillies. =P

[pppp]

Personally I'd like to see a return of the Sonic Advance 2 boost. With the set up we have now, we've been given an instant top speed move that most people can't even be used effectively until multiple playthroughs, and if you tried to be a dare-devil you'd typically find yourself bumping into obstacles or falling into bottomless pits. Where with the SAdv2 boost, you'd never run that risk as the only way you could even see such speed is by memorizing the levels. With this setup, you get the same sensation of speed Unleashed delivers but with the added bonuses of the boost becoming something that you earn, rather than something that's handed to you... and you won't get people raging because they can't learn to let go of the X Button. The sillies. =P

Great idea

[Nepenthe]

I never understood how Advance's boost is supposed to make the Unleashed formula significantly better. Not only is the problem of increased risk already circumvented with the fact that Unleashed's boost is mostly optional except in wide open areas of water which are the easiest obstacles to navigate, but it only makes the designers just as inclined to include the trial-and-error level design Unleashed's opponents have derided in an effort to stop you from easily achieving the "reward." Assuming it's true that Advance 2's level design relies primarily on memorization to conquer and activate the boost, how is that fundamentally different from merely relying on memorization to simply sustain it?

[Sion-Ta]

I never understood how Advance's boost is supposed to make the Unleashed formula significantly better. Not only is the problem of increased risk already circumvented with the fact that Unleashed's boost is mostly optional except in wide open areas of water which are the easiest obstacles to navigate, but it only makes the designers just as inclined to include the trial-and-error level design Unleashed's opponents have derided in an effort to stop you from easily achieving the "reward." Assuming it's true that Advance 2's level design relies primarily on memorization to conquer and activate the boost, how is that fundamentally different from merely relying on memorization to simply sustain it?

Think of it this way... Imagine you're in the mood for some ice cream (Sonic game); a friend then walks up to you and hands you one (Boost meter). Now that you have some ice cream, you'd obviously like to take a bite of it then and there, but before you're able to, your friend interrupts you, and tells you that before you can eat the ice cream he just gave you, you have to perform a task for him (level memorization), and if you try and sneak a bite, he punches you in the face. This is a very bad food analogy of the Unleashed boost.

Now in a similar situation, only with the Advance boost, I would compare it more to your friend promising you that he'll buy you some ice cream if you do him a favour. Essentially it's the same predicament either way, just in one of them, your friend comes off as less of a dick. That probably made absoultely no sense but eh, I just think it would feel a lot more natural to have a top-speed rather than a top-speed button.

[Nepenthe]

That was indeed a horrible analogy. Rather, let's imagine a scenario where there's ice cream at the end of an obstacle-laiden treadmill, and said obstacles repeat as the track circulates. In Unleashed's case, it's always uncovered, and you can eat as much as you want provided you don't stumble. You may stumble a lot as you focus more on the ice cream than the obstacles, but after awhile, you'll be able to eat ice cream while walking around the obstacles smoothly. In Advance's case, the ice cream is covered by plexiglass that automatically slides away if you don't stumble after two minutes. Then, you can eat as much as you want until you stumble again, after which it's closed off and you have to walk perfectly for another two minutes to get the ice cream again.

And I don't know about you, but I've got a sweet tooth. I'd rather the first treadmill where my appetite for the ice cream is able to be constantly satiated at more opportunities. If anything, it actually feels less punishing. "Oh, you weren't perfect? Well screw you; You can't eat until I tell you to!"

I also disagree in how Sonic's natural abilities should be handled. I've never had to "earn" all of Mario's jumps in the 3D platformers. Figure them out, yes, but all of Mario's jumps and their inherent effects are available from the outset, default abilities the character has at his disposal to address the level design. Frankly, I don't see why Sonic has to be so different in that regard, where the reward in being a good player is in conquering the landscape efficiently instead of an ability being relegated as something that, by the very nature of the character, should be readily available to you in the first place.

This scenario reminds me of all the complaints I heard about SatSR. "Why do I have to earn good controls?!!" Well, why do I have to earn a supersonic character's ability to go at supersonic speeds???

Edited May 12, 2011 by Nepenthe