Sonic Frontiers Leaks & Spoilers Thread - PLEASE READ OP

[McGroose]

Can anyone think of an original level theme in a 3D game from the past 10 years that's ever been memorable? Like a single one?

1. Generations - All older levels from games before it, besides the purple void with the final boss.

2. Lost World - Very typical level themes, not necessarily bad but not memorable in the slightest. Dare I even use the G word: generic. The only levels that stood to me were those two underwater rail grinding stages. But as for the rest, you could have just dropped Sonic in any other random video game and could've fooled me. The first level is just Green Hill in the sky, nothing is unique about the rest. 

3. Sonic Boom - uhhhh

4. Sonic Forces - Sunset Heights, I guess? The rest were reused older level themes: Green (lookin a lot more like Sand) Hill, Death Egg, Chemical Plant. What were the other level themes? A cardboard Jungle level and a completely forgettable final base.

Did I miss anything?

We're probably not going to see anything rehashed from the newer content over the past 10 years because all of it consisted already of reused stage themes or were level concepts that felt completely uninspired anyway and would be waste of game space to include. Everything that's been referenced so far from the Cyberspace stages, from the visuals and the level design, has come from titles over a decade old or are clearly a mix of levels from titles over a decade old. I will be amazed if we see the return of anything original from the past decade that isn't maybe Sunset Heights.

This is at least partially why Sega is taking their approach with the Cyberspace stages. As far as creating new memorable level themes, stage design and capturing the overall charm that many of the levels from older games so good in the first place, they've done a rather poor job for a decade. They're aware of this. The main islands of Frontiers do not contain many memorable set pieces outside of maybe those giant floating temples, and critics were quick to point that out in the first gameplay reveal, but I don't even think Sega was trying to go for that approach at this point anyway. That's half the reason why people thought (or currently still think) that Sonic stood out so bad in it.

In my opinion, while the quality of games from the 2010s has been at least slightly better than what we consider the Dark Age of Sonic with games like Shadow and 06, at least those older games are far more memorable to me. Excluding Mania, the vast majority of Sonic games from this past decade have been so boring.

I think Sega is more than aware of what their weaknesses are, probably more than we give them credit for. That's why they're doing what they're doing right now, because the problem isn't their lack of self-awareness about what makes their games less memorable, but not knowing what the solution is.

So it seems like our new Sonic cycle is waiting every 4-5 years for a new anniversary period as the release date of a major 3D game, giving them the excuse to constantly keep rehashing the first decade of Sonic's content over and over again.

Like, am I missing something here? Sonic games are beyond boring nowadays. At this point, I don't even know what I'd prefer. Brand new boring level themes with crappy level design or rehashing the same stuff over and over again. What a strange limbo we've found ourselves in.

[azoo]

Just now, Wraith said:

They probably wanted to emulate Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild's 'microdose of dopamine' style of gameplay loop where you get a lot of bite sized challenges as you explore a larger map, rather than a longer challenge that pays off later. I prefer the latter style of game and think that makes more sense for Sonic but I think this will play well with most people.

No for sure, you're right and I think this will pay off far better for the normie crowd. After all, most reception I've seen/heard outside of the fanbase seems to like this game a whole lot more than anyone in the fanbase (besides the hyper-defensive). 

I sure wish it wasn't designed like this, though. Maybe they would've taken the spread out approach if they were more confident in the open areas they designed being fun enough on their own to navigate. Haha. Ha. ha....

[ZinogreVolt]

Yeah, something just... happened after Colors that made them give up on original and creative level theming. I think the open zone is at least something that makes up for that in Frontiers' case, and I think the highway level has a cool inception-like aesthetic, but it's very frustrating that Sonic games have almost universally been devoid of original and fun level theming for the past decade.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

7 minutes ago, McGroose said:

Can anyone think of an original level theme in a 3D game from the past 10 years that's ever been memorable? Like a single one?

I mean, I could, but in the eyes of many personnel, it probably wouldn't fly. People just have different takes like that.

6 minutes ago, azoo said:

I sure wish it wasn't designed like this, though. Maybe they would've taken the spread out approach if they were more confident in the open areas they designed being fun enough on their own to navigate. Haha. Ha. ha....

Honestly, it feels like they are confident with the open zone areas, it's just that the cyber space levels were added as some extra flourish. Which don't seem bad either.

[Razule]

The recent stuff about Cyber Space gives me the vibe that they've given up on trying to design typical Sonic levels for something more standard to modern games (the open world). It sucks to think that after all time instead of bringing in people who'd be better at designing them, they're moving on to something else.

[castell-neath]

20 minutes ago, Starnik said:

We have several boost games already. The boost levels are not usually that long.

We’re collecting the emeralds over and over again? Are you suggesting seven cyberspace levels? I’m confused.

I get we have a few boost games...4?? (Unleashed, Gens, Colours, Forces). Of those,  Unleashed's boost levels were pretty long and at times tricky to master. I was hoping the cyberspace stages would be more akin to them as opposed to forces' rather short and uninspred ones

 

In my post I was thinking that the the shorter cyberspace stages would unlock sonething like keys / tokens etc for the open zone, with the "main" long one unlocking the emerald

[Starnik]

7 minutes ago, castell-neath said:

I get we have a few boost games...4?? (Unleashed, Gens, Colours, Forces). Of those,  Unleashed's boost levels were pretty long and at times tricky to master. I was hoping the cyberspace stages would be more akin to them as opposed to forces' rather short and uninspred ones

In my post I was thinking that the the shorter cyberspace stages would unlock sonething like keys / tokens etc for the open zone, with the "main" long one unlocking the emerald

Oh, that’s an interesting idea. Hmm. 

[castell-neath]

11 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Yeah, something just... happened after Colors that made them give up on original and creative level theming. I think the open zone is at least something that makes up for that in Frontiers' case, and I think the highway level has a cool inception-like aesthetic, but it's very frustrating that Sonic games have almost universally been devoid of original and fun level theming for the past decade.

I think that something was Lost World. They tried something different there but didnt have the guts to refine and develop the concept further...and then they failed to maximuse this new format by not exporting it to pc/ps/xbox. Even now they should. That exclusive deal with nintendo must have ended...which would explain colours ultimate. 

After that "failiure", they tried again with a ltd create your own player format and mixed it in with a "safe" but half botheref / half ar**d redo of Gens, which again failed as it was too brief and too rehash. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 minutes ago, castell-neath said:

They tried something different there but didnt have the guts to refine and develop the concept further

That would explain the return of some concepts from Lost World, most notably, some of the parkour being back, merged with aspects from other games in Frontiers for an optimum control scheme for the Blue Blur.

[Starnik]

17 minutes ago, Razule said:

The recent stuff about Cyber Space gives me the vibe that they've given up on trying to design typical Sonic levels for something more standard to modern games (the open world). It sucks to think that after all time instead of bringing in people who'd be better at designing them, they're moving on to something else.

By typical Sonic levels, you mean boost levels? The Boost is probably getting old by now. I’m not surprised they are trying to innovate. Boost is sorta limiting anyway.

[ZinogreVolt]

Yeah for what it's worth I think the setup that Frontiers has is gonna be a pretty big hit among non-fans or more casual fans. Assuming that there's roughly 10 levels per island, that's 50 Cyberspace levels on top of the open zones, which is a big chunk of game right there. The setup Frontiers has is also a lot more consistent than other games, meaning there's never any weird or undesired playstyles getting in the way of enjoying it.

It's definitely gonna be more mixed among more hardcore fans, but I think as far as public reception goes it will likely be a net positive?

[Soniman]

55 minutes ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

It sucked back in colors, and it sucks now.

Hm, I'm starting to think Kishimoto isn't a good director

Honestly Game Land didn’t suck BECAUSE it used old layouts, they sucked because taking classic levels built around curves and momenteum, sucking all visual flare from them and pasting them in a gameplay style thats comparatively stiffer and automated doesn’t translate well at all 

[Razule]

4 minutes ago, Starnik said:

By typical Sonic levels, you mean boost levels? The Boost is probably getting old by now. I’m not surprised they are trying to innovate. Boost is sorta limiting anyway.

More like the general linear platforming style that's consistent between Classic, Adventure, and Boost.

[McGroose]

7 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Assuming that there's roughly 10 levels per island, that's 50 Cyberspace levels on top of the open zones

I would assume there will be be 35 cyberspace stages

5 islands, 7 emeralds, so probably 1 stage out of a total of 7 different stage settings for each emerald (we've already seen 4 of them to varying degrees) that will be reused for each island. So that could mean we'd have green hill act 5 by the last island lol 

[Diogenes]

31 minutes ago, McGroose said:

Can anyone think of an original level theme in a 3D game from the past 10 years that's ever been memorable? Like a single one?

...

2. Lost World - Very typical level themes, not necessarily bad but not memorable in the slightest. Dare I even use the G word: generic. The only levels that stood to me were those two underwater rail grinding stages. But as for the rest, you could have just dropped Sonic in any other random video game and could've fooled me. The first level is just Green Hill in the sky, nothing is unique about the rest. 

I'd disagree on this one. They're not the most stunning nor original themes in the series, but it had a decent number of standouts. The mentioned Sea Bottom Segue levels, Honeycomb Highway, Dessert Ruins (hate it all you want, it was new for Sonic and you sure as hell remember it), the fruit juicing level of Tropical Coast, Frozen Factory mixing billiards into the winter theme, plus those postgame levels that went full Special Stage weird.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'd disagree on this one. They're not the most stunning nor original themes in the series, but it had a decent number of standouts. The mentioned Sea Bottom Segue levels, Honeycomb Highway, Dessert Ruins (hate it all you want, it was new for Sonic and you sure as hell remember it), the fruit juicing level of Tropical Coast, Frozen Factory mixing billiards into the winter theme, plus those postgame levels that went full Special Stage weird.

Ah, a fellow Lost World aficionado. But yes, Lost World did maintain a bout of originality, and let's be honest, they were all still new levels. Familiar tropes? Absolutely, but new zones all the same.

[ZinogreVolt]

2 minutes ago, McGroose said:

I would assume there will be be 35 cyberspace stages

5 islands, 7 emeralds, so probably 7 stage themes for each emerald (we've already seen 4 of them to varying degrees) that will be reused for each island. So that could mean we'd have green hill act 5 by the last island lol 

We know there's at least nine stages on the first island, so assuming we lowball it, I think 35-40ish is also a good estimate (and still plenty of content). I think the number will probably depend on somewhat on how much the devs want to facilitate the whole "play however you want" angle, but there's definitely gonna be a lot to go around.

[Iko]

So, every level shown so far is taken from a past game. The only one that was not recognized so far is the 2D city stage, along with the other 3D city stage that was shown in the trailers. One of the cutscenes also shows a part of a level (maybe), still the city zone, with a weird tunnel that resembles what you would find in Radical Highway, but it's not even confirmed that it's a level, it can be a generic place for a cutscene too.

After the reveal of City Escape (recreated into the city environment), I think that it's unlikely for any cyberspace level to be original. It seems that ALL the levels, regardless of the environment, are based on a level from an older game. We have too little informations about the city levels shown in the trailers and that cutscene, so it's impossible for now to recognize them, but the 2D one was fully showcased, and still people can't find the original level it's based off.

I've watched many gameplay videos, of Colors (both), Lost World (both), Rush and Rush Adventure, even a bit of Sonic Rivals and Sonic 4, but nothing so far... there are very similar pieces of level here and there, but no level which perfectly fits with every part of the cyberspace one.

What do you think? Can we eventually find out what the original level is? (because I'm sure that there is one at this point).

[McGroose]

48 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'd disagree on this one. They're not the most stunning nor original themes in the series, but it had a decent number of standouts. The mentioned Sea Bottom Segue levels, Honeycomb Highway, Dessert Ruins (hate it all you want, it was new for Sonic and you sure as hell remember it), the fruit juicing level of Tropical Coast, Frozen Factory mixing billiards into the winter theme, plus those postgame levels that went full Special Stage weird.

Wall of text incoming, sorry. This was fun to ponder tho

They stand out in sense that they're different from what the main theme of the stage was (ice, desert, jungle, etc), but I hardly care about them anymore because of that alone. Maybe if Sega decided to make full zones out of them and flesh them out more to bring out their potential instead of only including one act of it? It also doesn't help that Lost World has very boring or just flat out bad level design quite often and I found this to be the case for many of the moments intended to stand out. I liked the rail grinding levels in Lost World cause I thought both were fun to play, had good music and had a lot of interesting twists on the level theme in the background happening all at once. The Honeycomb level had the visual elements to make it fun, but I found it not fun to play at all. 

You'll have to forgive me for violating the rule of show and don't tell with my lackluster explanations here, but I just don't think standing out is enough to constitute being memorable. I think of great levels and I think of Chemical Plant, Hydrocity, Emerald Coast, Radical Highway,  Egg Fleet and many more. Lost World offers nothing to put it on par with the big dogs that came before, but there's a wide variety of factors I think that go into making a level memorable. Again my explanations of why suck, but I guess I'll just say that even when Lost World hits a few right notes, it's still not enough in the end. 

I remembered the candy level, I just thought it was a more pink version of Sweet Mountain without any of what made Sweet Mountain fun in the first place. Sweet Mountain had a lot going for it, a mechanical refinery/factory with a type of paved pathway or road network on a planet that was either already made of sugary delights or given its diabetes by Eggman, so this left me pondering, at least for a second, the implications of how Eggman handled this planet. It also had some banging music. The way the geometry of the level was setup, from the lolipop trees to the buildings in the background, there was a method to its madness, one of the best stage themes in the series, IMO and I thought the level design was at least good enough.

Dessert ruins on the otherhand was just bland madness. The level in Lost World was nothing but candy, and more floating candy with forgettable music and level design that would make the 2D parts of Colors look like goty material. I seriously hate the 2D in Lost World.

I would feel hypocritical however if I didn't bring up the ice level, since it was also a level that had tried to do a lot all at once. It felt like a mixture of oil ocean and Ice Cap, so why did I not remember it until just now? I think it was because I suppressed that memory, because that level fucking sucks and its a pain to play because of how Sonic handled on the ice. And just because it mixed two stages doesn't mean that it feels like Sega put any more creative thought into it then if they just rehashed one instead.

I'll give you the billiard one though, that was a genuinely neat gimmick, but the level itself was so ass to control that I think I intentionally didn't  want to remember it. As for the fruit juicer, I guess that was neat? But that's the thing, these were stage gimmicks that were just one small part of the larger level, levels that hardly tried to be creative with their overall stage aesthetic. 

I did however completely forget about the bonus levels at the end of the game but no wonder I forgot about them, they managed to be both uninspired and a clusterfuck. I'm guessing this was just a scrapped level for another stage that they slapped some random textures on and called it a day. I remembered the level being a mess, I forgot what mix of paint they slapped on the wall to make it. 

I think Lost World is so weird as far as games go in that it's the biggest example of a game having no idea wtf it wants to look like. 

I'll admit that I might just be a grumpy fart when it comes to what I want from a Sonic game, but Lost World from the visual department definetly was not it.

[Sonicka]

Lost World is certainly a real marmite game in the series (which I always found quite odd as this felt the most Sonic-y of titles to me personally - but everyone has different opinions on what makes Sonic... Sonic, and regretfully even Sonic Team don't really know either).

In terms of that games artstyle, whilst I enjoyed what they achieved in Unleashed and Generations... Sonic Lost World is essentially how I would have pictured the original trilogy/quadrilogy of classics, but in 3D. And apart from those bizarre blocky tree stylings in the cutscenes, it was a rather beautiful looking piece of art on the Wii U, and certainly Sonic Team at their most creative (which is why I'm always sad there was never a sequel to expand on the solid work they setup here). 

To me the experimental madness was all part of the design. Was it cohesive? ...no, not that all. But that was part of the fun. I quite enjoyed not knowing what kind of level or platform scenario was coming next with each Zone. It was certainly very Mario in inspiration in that sense, and this is not necessarily a bad thing.

I do think that the idea of the Lost Hex world itself was not really very well explained other than visually showing us that it was random chunks of blocks and platforms that just floated above those Hex shaped continents (most of the time)... which itself floated above the main world. I often liked to think of this place as being something akin to the Special Stages that Sonic ends up in due to it's bizarre and random makeup. But that's more of my own head-canon firing off ideas when trying to process the world on offer.

In comparison, when I look at Frontiers (especially the Open Zone segments) my mind sort of glazes over on the realism choice of design as it personally not what I'm looking for. However... all the weird digital crap and glitches that are going on everywhere do lead me to believe that even these Islands are some sort of Digital Paradise by design (especially with all the oddities that appears in the air - this feels out of place in a naturalistic environment, but less so in hyper stylised worlds). So I'm willing to give it the benefit for now to see where this idea ultimately goes in the narrative, especially when the art style shifts so radically back to the trippy retro-inspired Cyberspace levels. 

Apologies if this is comes across as just a random wall of musing. TLDR; I feel Lost World has excellent world design overall, it's very creative and memorable (to me). Frontiers is presently debatable until release, but the more footage I see of this game the more I am honestly intrigued. 

[The Deleter]

By now 7 cyberspace stages have been found from the demo, but with a twist: they're all located in the areas that we have seen already. Apparently in the demo you can't progress past the "big hill", which I would assume means the mountain itself. Dreed also mentions a giant throne/cyberspace portal being visible.

A bigger landmark for a cyberspace stage might mean some "main" acts might be on the table? Maybe?

He also posted the full list, which is notably missing any mentions of Rooftop Run that Game Informer mentioned from their extended time with the game.

 

[LegoFedora]

2 hours ago, McGroose said:

Can anyone think of an original level theme in a 3D game from the past 10 years that's ever been memorable? Like a single one?

1. Generations - All older levels from games before it, besides the purple void with the final boss.

2. Lost World - Very typical level themes, not necessarily bad but not memorable in the slightest. Dare I even use the G word: generic. The only levels that stood to me were those two underwater rail grinding stages. But as for the rest, you could have just dropped Sonic in any other random video game and could've fooled me. The first level is just Green Hill in the sky, nothing is unique about the rest. 

3. Sonic Boom - uhhhh

4. Sonic Forces - Sunset Heights, I guess? The rest were reused older level themes: Green (lookin a lot more like Sand) Hill, Death Egg, Chemical Plant. What were the other level themes? A cardboard Jungle level and a completely forgettable final base.

Generations was entirely old levels, but the hub world could be interesting. A level based around filling in the color by running around could be neat (think like how some of the nverse stages worked from crash 4)

Lost World has already had examples stated here, the dessert level, and the caves are standouts for me. I wish we got more cave locations in modern sonic.

Boom, idk. Never played one

Forces had quite a few. When we learned cyberspace levels were possibly reused themes, I hoped Forces would be part of it. I'd love to see the casino forest or metropolis redone with more competent and fun level designs to them. Toss sand Hill in there too, why not.

[light-gaia]

2 hours ago, McGroose said:

Can anyone think of an original level theme in a 3D game from the past 10 years that's ever been memorable? Like a single one?

1. Generations - All older levels from games before it, besides the purple void with the final boss.

2. Lost World - Very typical level themes, not necessarily bad but not memorable in the slightest. Dare I even use the G word: generic. The only levels that stood to me were those two underwater rail grinding stages. But as for the rest, you could have just dropped Sonic in any other random video game and could've fooled me. The first level is just Green Hill in the sky, nothing is unique about the rest. 

3. Sonic Boom - uhhhh

4. Sonic Forces - Sunset Heights, I guess? The rest were reused older level themes: Green (lookin a lot more like Sand) Hill, Death Egg, Chemical Plant. What were the other level themes? A cardboard Jungle level and a completely forgettable final base.

Did I miss anything?

We're probably not going to see anything rehashed from the newer content over the past 10 years because all of it consisted already of reused stage themes or were level concepts that felt completely uninspired anyway and would be waste of game space to include. Everything that's been referenced so far from the Cyberspace stages, from the visuals and the level design, has come from titles over a decade old or are clearly a mix of levels from titles over a decade old. I will be amazed if we see the return of anything original from the past decade that isn't maybe Sunset Heights.

This is at least partially why Sega is taking their approach with the Cyberspace stages. As far as creating new memorable level themes, stage design and capturing the overall charm that many of the levels from older games so good in the first place, they've done a rather poor job for a decade. They're aware of this. The main islands of Frontiers do not contain many memorable set pieces outside of maybe those giant floating temples, and critics were quick to point that out in the first gameplay reveal, but I don't even think Sega was trying to go for that approach at this point anyway. That's half the reason why people thought (or currently still think) that Sonic stood out so bad in it.

In my opinion, while the quality of games from the 2010s has been at least slightly better than what we consider the Dark Age of Sonic with games like Shadow and 06, at least those older games are far more memorable to me. Excluding Mania, the vast majority of Sonic games from this past decade have been so boring.

I think Sega is more than aware of what their weaknesses are, probably more than we give them credit for. That's why they're doing what they're doing right now, because the problem isn't their lack of self-awareness about what makes their games less memorable, but not knowing what the solution is.

So it seems like our new Sonic cycle is waiting every 4-5 years for a new anniversary period as the release date of a major 3D game, giving them the excuse to constantly keep rehashing the first decade of Sonic's content over and over again.

Like, am I missing something here? Sonic games are beyond boring nowadays. At this point, I don't even know what I'd prefer. Brand new boring level themes with crappy level design or rehashing the same stuff over and over again. What a strange limbo we've found ourselves in.

I love Silent Forest from Sonic Lost World.

From Forces, I think Luminous Forest, Sunset Heights and Metropolis are all cool (the aesthetics, not the level design)

[StellarBlur]

18 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

By now 7 cyberspace stages have been found from the demo, but with a twist: they're all located in the areas that we have seen already. Apparently in the demo you can't progress past the "big hill", which I would assume means the mountain itself. Dreed also mentions a giant throne/cyberspace portal being visible.

A bigger landmark for a cyberspace stage might mean some "main" acts might be on the table? Maybe?

He also posted the full list, which is notably missing any mentions of Rooftop Run that Game Informer mentioned from their extended time with the game.

If there's at least one main act per island with new theming (in this case I'm guessing the city would be the original theming for the first island), I'll accept the reuse for regular cyberspace levels. Man, I really hope this is the case. I'm loving the copium hahaha. 

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

So I had this theory. Hear me out for a sec. So we got green hill, chem plant, sky sanctuary, and city escape city on the first island right? What do two of these levels have in common? Green hill and city escape are 1st stages. 

First, yeah yeah, asset reuse sucks blah blah, Sega is not competent to do it right there should be new levels, and I agree Let's get that out of the way. 

The desert area is the next world right? What if we, either get seaside hill or crisis city in the next area, or they're just pulling levels from games that came after generations but with level design from older games but the aesthetic fits in with the area. For example: a cyberspace stage that looks like desert ruins from lost world, or that pyramid stage from forces?

If the next island is a snow area, what if we get: Cool edge or frozen factory? 

I don't know how to explain chemical plant or sky sanctuary though. 

Just a theory I thought about.