Sonic the real Ultimate Life Form?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Funny we mention dimensions and such, because aside from teleportation and freezing/slowing time, Shadow hasn't done anything more. Outside of what he has of Sonic's moves, he can only unleash Chaos Energy as a bolt of lightning or a energy blast, teleport from one place to another, and freeze/slow time*. Mastering time and space, he could travel back and forth in time, ON HIS OWN I should add, and completely fuck dimensions to his own will.

Being a master of spacetime is really that akin to being a god, and Shadow, while powerful, is much less than a god. Any true Ultimate Lifeform as Shadow would distinguish himself as would've already been at Solaris' caliber when it comes to time and space, and controling those two factors alone is control over the entire universe...and any other universes that could be out there. That, and he wouldn't have needed two other super hedgies to help kill said god of time and space.

Boy it's just fun to put so much thought into this kind of stuff, ain't it?

*All of this is that from what is mainly considered canon. Folks will argue like hell of the canoncity of anything outside the mainstream games.

Edited September 29, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Carbo]

Ignoring everything else regarding this rant, technically he is right on Sonic being more of a Gary Stu. Being immortal and a manipulator of Chaos doesn't automactically equal a Gary Stu, and it's still arguable on how immortal Shadow is. We don't know the full extent of that trait.

Even though Shadow has Sonic's speed, an added ability to use Chaos Control, and him being nigh-unkillable, it's still always Sonic on top of things even when it's outside of his natural abilities.

Though that's rather expected of the principal hero of a series. He's supposed to do and overcome just everything when you throw things at him.

The main reason is because he's not a lifeform. Despite his abilities, he's an artificial, electronic being. Not an organic one.

I find it hard to see how a fragile speedster who in this case is overpowered by a Chaos manipulating "immortal" with the same exact speed is less of a Gary Stu than Sonic, especially considering the Air Shoes are built onto him.

Organic or not, it doesn't matter. Metal Sonic is still full of life. He imprisoned Eggman, copied data from everyone, turned into a Metallic Overlord and ready to destroy and dominate. Seriously, look at how he acted as the Overlord, I was awestruck on how much of a self-consciousness he had.

Funny we mention dimensions and such, because aside from teleportation and freezing/slowing time, Shadow hasn't done anything more. Outside of what he has of Sonic's moves, he can only unleash Chaos Energy as a bolt of lightning or a energy blast, teleport from one place to another, and freeze/slow time*. Mastering time and space, he could travel back and forth in time, ON HIS OWN I should add, and completely fuck dimensions to his own will.

Being a master of spacetime is really that akin to being a god, and Shadow, while powerful, is much less than a god. Any true Ultimate Lifeform as Shadow would distinguish himself as would've already been at Solaris' caliber when it comes to time and space, and controling those two factors alone is control over the entire universe...and any other universes that could be out there. That, and he wouldn't have needed two other super hedgies to help kill said god of time and space.

Boy it's just fun to put so much thought into this kind of stuff, ain't it?

*All of this is that from what is mainly considered canon. Folks will argue like hell of the canoncity of anything outside the mainstream games.

Actually, Shadow said himself that using one Chaos Emerald and by himself is insufficient in Sonic 06, so both Sonic and Shadow had to use it. Similarly, so did Sonic and Silver.

One can also argue that; slowing down time is the same as warping by means. I say this because for the human eye people would barely notice how fast someone zipped through, hence why Shadow's Chaos Control goes so fast in action stages cause what fun would there be in with running through slow motion? But then again Sonic warped out of the capsule in SA2 so yeah.

Sonic Battle, it's ironically called Chaos Heal.

Everyone else had a heal which depending on characters didn't have to make sense. Like what exactly does Sonic, Amy and Cream heal from?

Besides Sonic Battle isn't canonwhoops.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Frog-Tan

[Daimao]

I don't feel the matter of being the Ultimate Life Form matters on who is more capable in combat. And i have no way to support this statement except for speculation. I stated this earlier on page 1 but it seemed to be ignored so I'll re-state my idea:

I think that when Gerald was studying the ruins of the Echidna civilization he came across either the mural depicting the fight of Super Sonic and Perfect Chaos or the fight between Super Sonic and Eggman in the Doomsday Zone. And that after witnessing either image he decided to design Shadow in the same form as Super Sonic.

If the above is true then it might be that Gerald had shown Shadow the creature his design is based off of before GUN raided the Ark. (that creature being Super Sonic). And thus it is during the battle between Super Sonic and the Bio-lizard, Shadow recognizes Super Sonic as the creature his own build is based off of and decides to tell Sonic the truth about who is the true Ultimate Life Form. After that battle Shadow loses his memory and thus begins referring to himself as the Ultimate Life Form once again.

As for who that Ultimate Life Form truly is, I believe it is Super Sonic (not Sonic's regular state).

Edited September 29, 2009 by Kienzan

[Carbo]

I don't feel the matter of being the Ultimate Life Form matters on who is more capable in combat. And i have no way to support this statement except for speculation. I stated this earlier on page 1 but it seemed to be ignored so I'll re-state my idea:

I think that when Gerald was studying the ruins of the Echidna civilization he came across either the mural depicting the fight of Super Sonic and Perfect Chaos or the fight between Super Sonic and Eggman in the Doomsday Zone. And that after witnessing either image he decided to design Shadow in the same form as Super Sonic.

If the above is true then it might be that Gerald had shown Shadow the creature his design is based off of before GUN raided the Ark. (that creature being Super Sonic). And thus it is during the battle between Super Sonic and the Bio-lizard, Shadow recognizes Super Sonic as the creature his own build is based off of and decides to tell Sonic the truth about who is the true Ultimate Life Form. After that battle Shadow loses his memory and thus begins referring to himself as the Ultimate Life Form once again.

As for who that Ultimate Life Form truly is, I believe it is Super Sonic (not Sonic's regular state).

... Eh? Gerald is Eggman's Granddad. Shadow was created before Sonic was born. Eggman was young at that point. Shadow's approximately 50 years of age.

As for the general line itself that Shadow said, I'm starting to think it's just another spat out "loltruth" thing that's overlooked unless you're really failing the boss. Like in Shadow the Hedgehog and Eggman confessing. I never actually knew about that until the forumists here told me.

Both of the lines feel like confidence boosters though. Shadow who's leaving his past behind him gets the truth of his finding and discovering as a bonus cause of it possibly being Eggman's final words. Get all of the questions answered and Shadow has nothing left to angst on about his past. Mishiuhn Compwrete.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Frog-Tan

[JaidynReiman]

I'd have to say that Ezra nailed it. Its not so much relating to power (though in my opinion, I think Shadow does sometimes seek to prove his title, starting in the [possibly] non-canon Expert Mode in Shadow the Hedgehog), but its all about him intended to be "perfect," and that was Gerald's goal all along. He wasn't trying to make Shadow powerful. He was trying to experiment and create a "perfect" being that would not age, or more importantly, that was immune to all forms of disease. By doing this, he knew that he could save Maria because the technology was possible. He just didn't get to finish his goal of saving Maria because she was killed before that happened.

Everything else related to Shadow is irrelevant, and I have to disagree with people both defending and bashing Shadow.

I'd get into more detail, but I have to go.

Edited September 29, 2009 by UltimaHedgie

[Daimao]

... Eh? Gerald is Eggman's Granddad. Shadow was created before Sonic was born. Eggman was young at that point. Shadow's approximately 50 years of age.

Yeah I know that. But those prophecies of Super Sonic defeating Perfect Chaos were inscribed in murals of the Echidna Civilization long before Gerald began Project: Shadow. So i think it might be possible that Gerald decided to base Shadow off of Super Sonic. And I jsut realized that it is proven that Gerald came across this mural since in Shadow the Hedgehog game Maria states that the Artificial Chaos were based off of a god of an ancient civilization.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Kienzan

[Carbo]

Yeah I know that. But those prophecies of Super Sonic defeating Perfect Chaos were inscribed in murals of the Echidna Civilization long before Gerald began Project: Shadow. So i think it might be possible that Gerald decided to base Shadow off of Super Sonic. And I jsut realized that it is proven that Gerald came across this mural since in Shadow the Hedgehog game Maria states that the Artificial Chaos were based off of a god of an ancient civilization.

I don't recall anything of a prophecy. Back then Chaos was defeated cause Tikal sacrificed herself in order to seal Chaos. The murals were just there to write in history, just like ancient artifacts do in our world.

Was a while ago since I played Sonic Adventure.

Artificial Chaos is proven though so yeah.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Frog-Tan

[Daimao]

I don't recall anything of a prophecy. Back then Chaos was defeated cause Tikal sacrificed herself in order to seal Chaos. The murals were just there to write in history, just like ancient artifacts do in our world.

Was a while ago since I played Sonic Adventure.

My msitake, I should have mentioned where the mural is exactly.

Play the Lost World stage in Sonic Adventure. Its a stage Tikal leads Sonic into and it takes place inside a ruined temple of the Echidna civilization. At the end of the stage in story mode Tikal shows Sonic the mural to let him know that he will eventually battle Perfect Chaos as Super Sonic.I think Gerald saw it and decided to base Shadow off of Super Sonic and the Artificial Chaos off of Perfect Chaos

And thats not all, take the mural prophesying the battle between Super Sonic and Dr. Robotnik in Sonic 3 & Knuckles' Hidden Palace Zone. The mural can be seen clearly in the background during the fight versus Knuckles despicably the epic battle for the Master Emerald in the Doomsday Zone. This could be a mural Gerald came across as well but it seems unlikely compared to the previous one since there has to be some source of inspiration for the Artificial Chaos.

Here's a link to a screenshot of the mural in-game:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/sonic/images/c/c7/Super_Tails_-_Sonic_3_%26_Knuckles_-_Hidden_Palace_Zone.JPG

Edited September 29, 2009 by Kienzan

[Diogenes]

Do people even check their facts anymore?

There is no mural of Super Sonic fighting Perfect Chaos. There is a mural of Perfect Chaos, yes, but Sonic is not in it in any way, shape, or form. There's no reason to assume that the mural is depicting the end of SA rather than Chaos destroying the echidna civilization.

The Hidden Palace mural is fine, tho', as is the artificial Chaos bit. So the basic theory still works.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I find it hard to see how a fragile speedster who in this case is overpowered by a Chaos manipulating "immortal" with the same exact speed is less of a Gary Stu than Sonic, especially considering the Air Shoes are built onto him.

The bold is where you're exaggerating. Sonic is far from a "fragile speedster", otherwise he wouldn't jump at excitement at taking on mechs that are 20 times his size, or singlehandedly destroy space-stations and airships, etc. Sonic is just as destructive as Shadow, if not more so because he's destroyed a lot more than him. That and he's survived many feats that others probably wouldn't make it alive; who falls face first from the Egg Carrier and lands on his feet like nothing happened?

Organic or not, it doesn't matter. Metal Sonic is still full of life.

There's a difference between being full of life and being life. He can be full of life than any other character, but he'll never be a lifeform. A lifeform is biological, a being is just something sentient. Metal Sonic is the latter.

Actually, Shadow said himself that using one Chaos Emerald and by himself is insufficient in Sonic 06, so both Sonic and Shadow had to use it. Similarly, so did Sonic and Silver.

Well so much for being a master of time and space then. Tho he was made to use the emeralds to achieve this so I guess I can let that slide.

One can also argue that; slowing down time is the same as warping by means. I say this because for the human eye people would barely notice how fast someone zipped through, hence why Shadow's Chaos Control goes so fast in action stages cause what fun would there be in with running through slow motion? But then again Sonic warped out of the capsule in SA2 so yeah.

Time is one thing, space is another. The only ability involving spatial traits is him teleporting from one place or another. He hasn't exactly done anything involving other spatial powers in titles people consider canon.

...tho I may be putting too much thought into this. XD

Edited September 29, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Auther]

Wait... what if being the ULF is more than physical.

Maybe Sonic is the ULF be because has a very strong mind and wouldn't lose himself.

I mean he resisted Dark Gaia's control in Sonic Unleashed, didn't submit to the Overmind's mind control in Chronicles, and didn't go insane by the emotions within the 7 World Rings in Secret Rings.

[Indigo Rush]

Sonic's the ultamite lifeform because he's not only a blue hedgehog, but he's based of off a mixture of Bill Clinton and Santa Claus, and was more recognizable than Mickey Mouse, in effect, making him more recognizable than any other cartoon character out there.

Take THAT Shadow.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Cap'n Crunch

[Omochao]

I've heard this a BILLION times lol. I thought Shadow was a robot created by Dr. Eggman/Robotnik and he was invincible. Yet, Sonic can turn into Super Sonic form with the 7 chaos emeralds, so err idk about that lol. With Shadow with the chaos emeralds he's probably stronger than Sonic is by a little tiny bit. Kinda confusing if ya ask me

[Chaos Member]

It matters not, game universe or not they're still the same Sonic!

[jutgf]

The only reason Shadow can do it is because of Black Doom. I believe it was stated that it was that very reason Professor Gerald used his blood. Stop making it sound like Shadow invented or originated the move, because he didnt.

Fallacy much, Shadow did originate the move because he is the move, because he is a genetic offspring of Black Doom. SA2 was the game Shadow made Chaos Control his own abilty. Shadow is a creation also, stop saying Shadow can't do Chaos Control without his fathers blood, that makes no sense, because Black Doom made him as well he is a part or is him.

Not fair to compare Shadow to Solaris? Really? That is a lame duck argument if I ever have seen one dude. If we are debating Shadows Ultimate status, I should be able to compare him to whatever I want. Ultimate is a universal term. It is quite clear that Solaris is by and far the most able user of Chaos Control bar none.

Dude, Solaris didn't even use Chaos Control, he used his own abilties to warp time and space. It's like how the Shingami and Arrancars are different from each other in Bleach but they use the same methods to level up and flash step but the methods are different in language.

Mephiles, body-double or not, proved that Shadows chaos prowess could be surpassed. The Ultimate anything is not supposed to be able to be surpassed in the first place. So thats another nail in that coffin.

How does that make any sense, Mehpiles was Shadow with the powers of a god. He was two beings into one and he ripoffed Shadow's powers. He didn't surpass Shadow in anything because Shadow still beat him. If Shadow had all 7 emeralds, he'd surpass and overpower Mephiles's abilty to warp through passages of time. The Ulitmate Lifeform is still Shadow because a copy of the Ultimate Lifefrom is still the true power.

I see your attributing gimped abilities to his need for another character to jump through time? Well lets use that argument and say Sonic cant use Chaos Blast because it would break the game and make things too easy.

Sonic can't use Chaos Blast, he's incapable of learning internal methods of skill and composing combustion.

yeah, mull that over a bit.

Not really.

Its a hollow title. If Usain Bolt broke his legs, and someone else started calling themselves the Worlds Fastest Man, than that name wont hold much water till Bolts records fall. Same goes for Shadow. Show me Mephilies level prowess or get out. (Shadow can get out, not you. On second thought, I do love me some angsty Hedgehog. He can stay )

Until I see Sonic make a black hole from Chaos Energy or burst magical combustion at the enemy by snaping his fingers, then Shadow is indeed the ultimate. He's like the Itachi of Sonic, he's the best of what he is. And Sonic can barely do his stuff.

Till such a time comes, excuse me if I fail to bow to the new King.

This coming from a Sonic retro fan.

Not X, but rather Sonic Heroes and Sonic 06. Sonic can grant super states to characters around him. Completely cannon.

A shield around Knux and Tails is nothing impressive, Shadow has a shield attack as well.

How come I knew youd fall for that?

So Battle is good enough for you to quote fringe abilities like healing but not good enough when I want to point out Shadow losing to Emrel/Sonic? Pick one or the other dude, Sheesh.

Plot defeated Shadow against Emel, even though he curbstomped Sonic in 3 games and was beating a guy who killed Sonic. Wow, plot always makes the main character be stronger then everyone, but consistency is what counts, and consistancy shows Shadow wining bouts against Sonic more than Shadow without plot reasons.

Shadow has never jumped Dimensions in the games. Blaze, Tails and Eggman/Nega have accomplished that feat though.

He has in the cartoon and the comics, I'm sure him jumping through time with silver was dimension jumping.

It matters plenty. Sonic Rush (1&2) showcase the effect Sonic has on the Chaos Emeralds. Entire dimensions can remain stable just because he holds them in his hands. It is never said that Shadow can balance Chaos. In fact, the inherit destiny of the Chaos Emeralds spoke of in Rush, seem quite geared to Sonic (and to Blaze).

Rush isn't cannon idiot, see 06 and Blaze and Silver. Shadow actually used chaos control on a comet the size of the arc and can travel back in forth through places without an emerald. He has perfect control of chaos control.

If Shadow had such Unlimited Potential, than the Eclipse Cannon would have obliterated the Earth already and Shadow wouldnt have such a rough go at taking on other characters in the franchise. If you want another example of Shadow getting the floor wiped with his skull, than look over at Chronicles. Sonic took him down single handedly (and the Voxai later control his mind). I am sure you dont consider that cannon either.

LOL you bring this up, it took a team of Sonic's friends to ware him down and for Sonic to beat him.

Powers that are on loan from Black Doom.....

Black doom never created Chaos Rift, it's like saying FRS is something Naruto never invented himself, it was from the 4th Hokage.

and whos to say Hyper Sonics screen clearing Mega Ion Burst isnt just a Chaos Blast on steroids?

Because it's not a canon abilty. Or a canon power up.

[Sega DogTagz]

Fallacy much, Shadow did originate the move because he is the move, because he is a genetic offspring of Black Doom. SA2 was the game Shadow made Chaos Control his own abilty. Shadow is a creation also, stop saying Shadow can't do Chaos Control without his fathers blood, that makes no sense, because Black Doom made him as well he is a part or is him.

Prof. Gerald used Black Dooms blood so Shadow could use Chaos Control. Basic fact is, no Black Doom, no Chaos Control for Shadow. Shadow did not invent CC, he can only do it cause he inherited it from Daddy.

Dude, Solaris didn't even use Chaos Control, he used his own abilties to warp time and space.

Solaris is a Chaos Emerald induced fusion of a character that could use Chaos Control.

Solaris is a Chaos Emerald induced Transformation gaining enhanced powers over Time and Space

Solaris could create spatial distortions to impede the progress of the heroes (End of the World)

hmmm.... Sounds like Chaos Control to me.

It's like how the Shingami and Arrancars are different from each other in Bleach but they use the same methods to level up and flash step but the methods are different in language.

Useless info from a show I don't watch. Your grasping at straws if your trying to deny Solaris as a Chaos Control wielder. Seeing as how his power is somewhat derived from Chaos Energy, technically anything Solaris can do will fall into some kind of Chaos _____ category.

How does that make any sense, Mehpiles was Shadow with the powers of a god. He was two beings into one and he ripoffed Shadow's powers. He didn't surpass Shadow in anything because Shadow still beat him. If Shadow had all 7 emeralds, he'd surpass and overpower Mephiles's abilty to warp through passages of time. The Ulitmate Lifeform is still Shadow because a copy of the Ultimate Lifefrom is still the true power.

Mephilies > Shadow

Copy or not, Mephilies broke the fundamental rule of an Ultimate anything.

************************

basic; fundamental; representing a limit beyond which further progress, as in investigation or analysis, is impossible:

************************

There is not supposed to be any level beyond Ultimate. Mephilies, God or not, proved that further mastery of Chaos Control was indeed possible. The only conclusion that can be made is that Shadow is not Ultimate.

Also, Mephilies beat Shadow, lets get that strait.

Shadow+Omega and Shadow+Omega+Rouge beat Mephilies, even though his real motive was simply to distract them anyway. He left those fights prematurely to pursue his master plan.

Sonic can't use Chaos Blast, he's incapable of learning internal methods of skill and composing combustion.

and Shadow is "incapable of learning internal methods of skill" when it comes to warping back in time by himself. The end result is that you cannot attribute Shadows lack of ability to gimping because I could do the same for any character in the franchise.

Sonics chaos abilities are gimped so he cant Chaos Annihilate through enemies and Break the Game

Amys speed is gimped so she cant keep up with Sonic and Break the Game

Eggmans abs are gimped to be flabby so his good looks don't upstage Sonic and BREAK THE GAME

get it? Shadow cant time warp by himself because he simply cant. He even said so. Mephilies on the other hand did it on a whim.

Until I see Sonic make a black hole from Chaos Energy or burst magical combustion at the enemy by snaping his fingers, then Shadow is indeed the ultimate. He's like the Itachi of Sonic, he's the best of what he is. And Sonic can barely do his stuff.

And until I see Shadow go back in time by himself, or collapse the Entirety of the know universe, than I refuse to call him the Ultimate anything. There was someone out there who was vastly better.

This coming from a Sonic retro fan.

I am New School & Old School Thank You. My disposition has nothing to do with anything anyway.

A shield around Knux and Tails is nothing impressive, Shadow has a shield attack as well.

That Sheild granted Super-like abilities to characters that was not himself. That same trick gave both Shadow and Silver their Super Forms in 06. I count that as quite impressive. Other characters can power up, due to their proximity to Super Sonic. No other character in the series has shown off a move that can put out results like that.

Plot defeated Shadow against Emel, even though he curbstomped Sonic in 3 games and was beating a guy who killed Sonic. Wow, plot always makes the main character be stronger then everyone, but consistency is what counts, and consistancy shows Shadow wining bouts against Sonic more than Shadow without plot reasons.

SA2 was a toss up, but it is heavily implied that Sonic was the final victor seeing as how he stopped the Eclipse Cannon and all. Shadow stuck it to Sonic in his own game, but just about all of the rest are up for interpretation. Seeing as how Sonic trashes Shadow in SA2, Battle and Chronicles, He is the far more consistent victor of the two. I have no idea where you are coming from on that.

While Shadow may have stuck it to an anterior motive Mephi, Sonic one ups that by tacking down a 7 Chaos Emerald powered Emerl (who before decked both Sonic and Shadow at the same time). When craps on the line, Sonic always wins.

He has in the cartoon and the comics, I'm sure him jumping through time with silver was dimension jumping.

Since when was time travel the same thing as dimension hopping? Last time I checked, Shadow has never jumped dimensions in the games. Tails and Eggman have done it with machines. Blaze can do it on her own with a foreign emerald. Come to think of it, That would mean Blaze can harness both Chaos and Sol....

Lets crown her the Ultamate Life Form. Hm?

Rush isn't cannon idiot, see 06 and Blaze and Silver. Shadow actually used chaos control on a comet the size of the arc and can travel back in forth through places without an emerald. He has perfect control of chaos control.

Surprise, Surprise, and now he says Rush inst cannon (I am sensing a non-console game bias here).

Let just forget that the game introduced MULTIPLE recurring characters into the series. Also, 06 in no way shape or form negates the possibility of Rush. The connection between the two is unclear not severed. Rush is plenty cannon. Blaze's bio on Sonic Channel is even reflective of her Rush persona.

Moving a comet w/ 7 chaos emeralds hardly makes Shadows abilities perfect. Again Mephilies could Time Travel and show visions with his and Solaris could Tear the Multi-Verse a new one with all 7. That sounds alot closer to perfect to me.

LOL you bring this up, it took a team of Sonic's friends to ware him down and for Sonic to beat him.

You did the same thing. Shadow had his buddies to Fight Mephi. Besides, you made Shadow sound so perfect and Ultimate that he should be able to stand up to any amount of punny mortals.

Black doom never created Chaos Rift, it's like saying FRS is something Naruto never invented himself, it was from the 4th Hokage.

Shadow made an alteration to the usage of Chaos Control. I could put some new bullets into an M-1, but I didn't make a new weapon did I? Original credit still goes back to the creator of the M-1 and to Black Doom.

Shadow just gets a gold star next to his name for being creative.

Because it's not a canon abilty. Or a canon power up.

Nothing with you is cannon is it? It is just your cover-all excuse for everything.

I will point out that it is just as cannon as Chaos Snap or Boost. It a move you could achieve and then pull off at will. Not even some one time only cutscene thing for that matter. I dare say that it is not out on a limb to call it a chaos blast. Hyper Sonic is powered by Chaos Energy and can clear all enemies in a short radius in all directions. If that is not Chaos Blast that I don't know what is.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Since when was time travel the same thing as dimension hopping?

Just jumping in, but time is considered the fourth dimension when it comes to dimensions.

You have a dot that represents no dimension, as it can't move anywhere.

You have a line that represents one dimensions, as you can only go in two directions.

The we have a square that represents two dimensions, as you can only go within the space of the square which is flat.

Then we have a cube that represents three dimensions, as you can only move within the space inside the cube.

That's all the dimensions of space.

Time is represented as the fourth dimension...I'm not sure how to explain that...

Either way it goes, it doesn't help Shadow's case as he needed help in order to move to and fro of time.

[Phos]

Ignoring everything else regarding this rant, technically he is right on Sonic being more of a Gary Stu. Being immortal and a manipulator of Chaos doesn't automactically equal a Gary Stu, and it's still arguable on how immortal Shadow is. We don't know the full extent of that trait.

Unless you're accusing Sonic of displacing Mr. Needlemouse, he can't be a Gary Stu.

Shadow is textbook "God Mode Stu", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jT6zu7roQ. He's the one with the assortment of Chaos powers, often not needing an Emerald to use them, he's the one who tends to gain powers as the story progresses (Black Doom's muscle freezing thing anyone?), And he's also got that "flaw that actually isn't a flaw". He's not as fast as Sonic, but he has his air shoes so it doesn't matter. Oh, and he also has super strength.

Sonic, on the other hand, is all natural, his only innate powers are to spin and to run fast.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Shadow is textbook "God Mode Stu", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jT6zu7roQ.

For one, going super sayain and simply ramming through tissue paper for enemies is not what I would call a god mode stu. Sonic himself is just as easily capable of doing that himself and without any chaos energy I should add, so by that logic he's just as much of stu himself.

Maybe not "god mode" (though with him getting a lot of other powers and abilities in other titles, that could be arguable), but he still comes out on top despite the all powerful characters he's pitted against. And there's nothing stoping him from having his own set of chaos abilities either.

He's the one with the assortment of Chaos powers, often not needing an Emerald to use them, he's the one who tends to gain powers as the story progresses (Black Doom's muscle freezing thing anyone?), And he's also got that "flaw that actually isn't a flaw". He's not as fast as Sonic, but he has his air shoes so it doesn't matter. Oh, and he also has super strength.

And yet with all that power, in the end he's still able to get his ass handed to him if pitted against that same all natural blue hedgehog who's only innate powers are to spin and run fast. Some stu Shadow is, and his abilities haven't grown much either.

As for that "freezing muscle" thing, I have no idea what you're talking about. If it's that nerve gas he used to paralyze all the other characters, Shadow only overcame that due to being the biological "son" of Black Doom, not necessarily a power he gained. Or is it that mind control of his?

Edited September 30, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

He was a better character in Sonic Battle, being both stronger and faster(?) than Sonic. Regardless, Shadow's loss in that situation meant that instead of the cannon firing, the colony fell, which was basically what Shadow was planning in the first place. But wait!, the following scenario also required him to now help the heroes in order for them to succeed.

tissue paper for enemies

If that's the case, Omega would have been able to handle that whole situation on his own. Because this is Shadow's ending, it's reasonable to assume that they're strong enough that that won't cut it. Regardless, he uses that same thing to take down a bunch of enemy space ships in Sonic X, which is presumably where it came from.

[Sega DogTagz]

He was a better character in Sonic Battle, being both stronger and faster(?)

Shadow was practically god mode in Battle. (practically because even he is no match for awakened Emerl - he is so crush) His areal power could 1HKO if you got a completely clean hit. His aerial dash was also supremely better than any other. It still didn't save him from getting his butt handed to him multiple times in the story though.

and Yes, he was faster, but it wasn't a contest because Sonic was given a hop rather than a real dash. I guess the developers were trying to balance out Sonics moveset for the ridiculous coverage he got from the Sonic Wave and Chu 2 traps.

Shadow usually has better stats than Sonic in games that record them. SA2 kart racing comes to mind, where Shadows all A emblem unlockable kart is so fast that no other kart can compete with it period. Whoever picks it basically wins. (its not exactly hard to keep it at top speed).

Edited September 30, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Regardless, Shadow's loss in that situation meant that instead of the cannon firing, the colony fell, which was basically what Shadow was planning in the first place. But wait!, the following scenario also required him to now help the heroes in order for them to succeed.

And that makes him a stu? The only help he provided in SA2 when the colony fell was that he distracted the Biolizard, which was virutally invicible even for Shadow's power, except for the life-support on its back. Then in the end, he helped teleport the Ark back in place and nearly died in the process.

...not sure how we got to his part in SA2, but anyway..

If that's the case, Omega would have been able to handle that whole situation on his own.

He probably could if it was really him who was suppose to succeed in taking down Shadow in the future.

Because this is Shadow's ending, it's reasonable to assume that they're strong enough that that won't cut it.

It still doesn't make him that much of a stu when a character physically inferior to him can still kick his ass in a duel against each other. Or when the same said character can beat a robot powered by all the Chaos Emeralds when the character fights in his regular form. I haven't seen Shadow do that. Edited September 30, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Carbo]

The bold is where you're exaggerating. Sonic is far from a "fragile speedster", otherwise he wouldn't jump at excitement at taking on mechs that are 20 times his size, or singlehandedly destroy space-stations and airships, etc. Sonic is just as destructive as Shadow, if not more so because he's destroyed a lot more than him. That and he's survived many feats that others probably wouldn't make it alive; who falls face first from the Egg Carrier and lands on his feet like nothing happened?

There's a difference between being full of life and being life. He can be full of life than any other character, but he'll never be a lifeform. A lifeform is biological, a being is just something sentient. Metal Sonic is the latter.

Well so much for being a master of time and space then. Tho he was made to use the emeralds to achieve this so I guess I can let that slide.

Time is one thing, space is another. The only ability involving spatial traits is him teleporting from one place or another. He hasn't exactly done anything involving other spatial powers in titles people consider canon.

...tho I may be putting too much thought into this. XD

By that logic, Shadow isn't a lifeform either. He has some Black Doom blood in him, sure, but he's still artificial.

Fragile Speedster is a trope. We use them around here often.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FragileSpeedster

Strength isn't exactly Sonic's upside. His advantage is his speed. He's not an all-rounder.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

By that logic, Shadow isn't a lifeform either. He has some Black Doom blood in him, sure, but he's still artificial.

Point to the word "artificial" in what you quoted, and you win this argument.

But even by that logic, Shadow is still a lifeform. He's biological. Black Doom was biological, and since Shadow came from Black Doom's biological blood, Shadow is therefore biological.

Metal Sonic is electronic and metallic, not biological. Therefore, he's not a lifeform.

Fragile Speedster is a trope. We use them around here often.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FragileSpeedster

I don't remember hearing that trope around here during the five years I've been on this board before the wipeout.

Strength isn't exactly Sonic's upside. His advantage is his speed. He's not an all-rounder.

But he can still beat anyone no matter how strong they are. He can beat Knuckles, Shadow, and destroy Eggman's most powerful airships. He's not good on the physical side, but that speed does more damage than anything anyone else has done.

Edited September 30, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

As far as Shadow's status in the context of the story, he was likely played up as invincible during his debut in SA2. Except that was okay because he dies at the end of that game. When he was brought back there was the problem of how a supporting character could overshadow Sonic, which is why Sonic is allowed to defeat him in combat. In a way they've brought him down to allow him to exist in the series. Still, he's the only supporting character that gets the special "I can do anything" treatment like Sonic, which is why he annoys people. Now we have a hero and anti-hero who can almost always be assured to save the day. It's what they do, and the plot bends to that rule.

About the god-mode comments, I think the super forms are god-mode characters much more than anything else. It's the trump card Ultrazord they pull out every game. The situation escalates, and then the emeralds come out.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik