Sonic the real Ultimate Life Form?

[Blacklightning]

While obviously may sound pushing, I for some reason heavily doubt that what was used right there could be concieved as Chaos Control. Not cause it isn't implied but if he really used it without an emerald, it defeats the purpose of Shadow collecting them throughout the different games and using them, and if he really does have the ability to warp at free will, it completely destroys the purpose of having timed stages or whatever if by logic, Shadow can just warp out of there.

Making perfect sense in every context isn't exactly a requirement, it's more for the sake of having an actual game to play than anything else. If you really could warp straight to the exit of a level, what would even be the point of making a level in between?

[Chaos Member]

No... no no...

Nononononononono!!!

Shadow never admitted that Sonic was the ULF nor did he try to say that in other words.

He clearly said:

So.. There is more to you then just looking like me.

What are you anyway?

Proof:

Yes... yes yes...

yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes!!!

Shadow said, (Parafrasing) Sonic, I think I know who the Ultiment Life Form is, it might be you. Clearly, he found out that he wasn't who he thought he was and discovered that Sonic is truely the ultiment life form.

[slam422]

"Ultimate Lifeform" is not a title easily earned. Shadow may call himself as such, but I personally think that, in his own way, Sonic is more deserving of the title of "Ultimate Life Form" than Shadow is. I mean, think about it: Sonic is kind, helpful & willing to go out of the way to help people. He's defeated mad scientists, robotic nightmares, a negative-energy-empowered liquid lifeform, a bio-engineered dinosaur thing bent on global destruction, a hyper-powered mechanical doppleganger, a creation-energy-mutated genie, a misguided sorceress, a trans-dimensional god, and the very embodiment of all the Earth's darkness & evil (& where, may I ask, was Shadow that whole time?). He never falters or hesitates, even in the face of improbable scenarios & impossible odds. And while Sonic may be a bit cocky at times, he never boast or claims himself to be the greatest thing in the world since the invention of fire!

What has Shadow done, other than defeating the Black Arms, has Shadow done to back up his claims of "Ultimate Lifeform" status? Nothing really comes to mind, does it? I mean sure, Shadow IS powerful, and he can do things that Sonic himself cannot do, but having power doesn't make you an Ultimate Lifeform, and any time that Shadow USED this power, it was usually only to assist Sonic in taking down a common foe.

Bottom line: Sonic has more than earned the title, whereas Shadow has as of yet been able to back up his claims of superiority.

(But don't get me wrong: as a character & a rival to Sonic, I DO like & respect Shadow just as much as the next guy.)

[Sega DogTagz]

What has Shadow done, other than defeating the Black Arms, has Shadow done to back up his claims of "Ultimate Lifeform" status? Nothing really comes to mind, does it? I mean sure, Shadow IS powerful, and he can do things that Sonic himself cannot do, but having power doesn't make you an Ultimate Lifeform, and any time that Shadow USED this power, it was usually only to assist Sonic in taking down a common foe.

Bottom line: Sonic has more than earned the title, whereas Shadow has as of yet been able to back up his claims of superiority.

Heh, heh. Not to be a prick about it, but under that logic (and the basic definition of Machiavellian Power thrown in for good measure) Shadow is more deserving of the title for the simple reasoning that he has indeed done less than Sonic.

Power used is power lost. When you look back at the series, Sonic sure has exerted his will quite alot. His power is a known commodity (even though mentioning said quality seems to evoke a craze in the Hedgehog). There is no argument from a power perspective. The fact that Shadow has done less, makes him more.

Shadow doesnt have to back up his trash talk. The fact that no one else goes off claiming to be the Ultimate Life Form is proof of that alone. In comparison, Sonic can barely hang onto his Fastest Thing Alive tag line. Jet and Shadow both try to infringe on that one. In all seriousness, Shadow is the Ultimate because no one else really challenges him for his throne. Sonic may joke, but has he ever called him out on it? Not really. To him, its just something else to insult.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[Unholy Sonic]

I'm.... gonna ask for help cause i'm still searching that part where Shadow said that:

Hahaha, Sonic! I think I've discovered what the Ultimate Life Form is...it might be you!

Line.... thinggy...

If you could post a link to where he said it thank you.

I'm not doubting that he said that on the final hazard part cause I know that on the Hero & Dark Story he didn't say it. Its just that i'm curious on it and I need proof of it.

[slam422]

Power used is power lost. When you look back at the series, Sonic sure has exerted his will quite alot. His power is a known commodity (even though mentioning said quality seems to evoke a craze in the Hedgehog). There is no argument from a power perspective. The fact that Shadow has done less, makes him more.

Power used may be power lost, but power unused is power wasted. Because he doesn't use that power, he always has it. And because he always has it, he doesn't need to push himself. And without need to push himself to his limits, he cannot grow in strength: he'll always stay at the same level of power & skill, and will never be able to better himself. Sonic, on the other hand, is always pushing himself to his limits & beyond. He strugles, he works hard, and in the end, he becomes the better man for it. By pushing himself to his limits, he's actually conditioning his body to be able to handle more and more abuse. And even when it looks like he's lost, Sonic is STILL able to win in the end.

Shadow doesnt have to back up his trash talk. The fact that no one else goes off claiming to be the Ultimate Life Form is proof of that alone.

So, by that logic, you're saying that I could just as easily call myself the greatest writer in all the universe (even though I'm not) & I would never have to back it up or prove it because no one else claims that they are better than me.

In comparison, Sonic can barely hang onto his Fastest Thing Alive tag line. Jet and Shadow both try to infringe on that one.

Sonic is called the fastest thing alive because he posesses the fastest UNAIDED land speed in his world. Shadow is only as fast as Sonic because of those jet skates that he uses, and Jet isn't even in the same category as Sonic is because he is only fast on his Extreme Gear (and Sonic has even outpreformed Jet on Extreme Gear on a number of different occasions, so that argument is completely null & void)

In all seriousness, Shadow is the Ultimate because no one else really challenges him for his throne. Sonic may joke, but has he ever called him out on it? Not really. To him, its just something else to insult.

Now, here is where I agree with you: Sonic hasn't challenged Shadow for his title of Ultimate Lifeform, and probably never will (unless SEGA decides to have Sonic do just that in a future game release). And to be honest: he doesn't have to. Sonic has proven time & time again that he is just as deserving (if not moreso) of the title of Ultimate Lifeform as Shadow is.

And once again: I just want to point out that I actually LIKE & RESPECT Shadow! I'm just giving my honest & personal opinion on this matter, and nothing more.

I'm.... gonna ask for help cause i'm still searching that part where Shadow said that:

Hahaha, Sonic! I think I've discovered what the Ultimate Life Form is...it might be you!

Line.... thinggy...

If you could post a link to where he said it thank you.

I'm not doubting that he said that on the final hazard part cause I know that on the Hero & Dark Story he didn't say it. Its just that i'm curious on it and I need proof of it.

Here's how you hear the line: when you reach the 4 minute mark of the 5 minute time limit (yes, there IS a time limit to that battle), make sure that you are controlling Sonic. When you reach this point, Shadow will say the line.

I do not have a video of him saying it, though, so you're just gonna have to play it for yourself or wait until someone else gives you a video link to see it. Sorry...

[Sega DogTagz]

Power used may be power lost, but power unused is power wasted.

Good old Machiavelli would take off his glove and challenge you to a duel with talk like that. I on the other-hand will allow it seeing as how I can understand where it comes from.

Because he doesn't use that power, he always has it. And because he always has it, he doesn't need to push himself. And without need to push himself to his limits, he cannot grow in strength: he'll always stay at the same level of power & skill, and will never be able to better himself. Sonic, on the other hand, is always pushing himself to his limits & beyond. He strugles, he works hard, and in the end, he becomes the better man for it. By pushing himself to his limits, he's actually conditioning his body to be able to handle more and more abuse. And even when it looks like he's lost, Sonic is STILL able to win in the end.

I will never question Sonics status as the single most powerful thing in his own universe. I have made it quite clear around these boards that I would never bet against Sonic regardless of any situation he may be facing.

That being said, Shadow is well able to push himself. He toughs it out against Silver and later taps into his OMG Mega Boost at the end of 06. Shadows determination of the ends usually serves as a rather strong ethos. Sonics work ethic is rather questionable in comparison, seeing as his whole fun and games mentality often trumps all else.

Shadow is also quite accustomed to winning and having things his own way as well.

So, by that logic, you're saying that I could just as easily call myself the greatest writer in all the universe (even though I'm not) & I would never have to back it up or prove it because no one else claims that they are better than me.

No, by my logic you are free to call yourself whatever you want and the sheer number of challengers to your throne in the immediate future would prove that it is not so clear cut. If you can think of a title that you would be willing to broadcast to the world and have no one step up to take it from you, then bygosh I think you can have that title. Seeing as how no one else in the Sonic Universe has stepped up to take the name from Shadow, I see no reason why he isn't the Ultimate Life Form.

Sonic is called the fastest thing alive because he posesses the fastest UNAIDED land speed in his world. Shadow is only as fast as Sonic because of those jet skates that he uses, and Jet isn't even in the same category as Sonic is because he is only fast on his Extreme Gear (and Sonic has even outpreformed Jet on Extreme Gear on a number of different occasions, so that argument is completely null & void)

At the end of the day, Sonic still cant silence his critics. Jet will still (and always) complain and others will still be looking over their shoulders at Shadow. Until Sonic gains unanimous support, his title will be contested (forget the technicalities). It is a good comparison to Shadows title, which enjoyed no such conflict.

Now, here is where I agree with you: Sonic hasn't challenged Shadow for his title of Ultimate Lifeform, and probably never will (unless SEGA decides to have Sonic do just that in a future game release). And to be honest: he doesn't have to. Sonic has proven time & time again that he is just as deserving (if not moreso) of the title of Ultimate Lifeform as Shadow is.

And once again: I just want to point out that I actually LIKE & RESPECT Shadow! I'm just giving my honest & personal opinion on this matter, and nothing more.

I don't see Sonic stepping up to that plate either, its just not his thing. Within the game series, Practically every character (Shadow included) has bowed their heads to Sonic at one point or another. The Blue Hedgehog is the character that exerts his will in the end, the rest are just along for the ride. The ending of 06 spoke wonders to this idea, as the entire cast stood in the knowledge that they were doomed without Sonic.

Still, I do not see this as a challenge to the Ultimate Life Form title. Sonic is just a hero. Winning is what he does. Shadow is a culmination of elements that aids him in that unique distinction. It has nothing to do with who is better than who or who can do what. He calls himself it, no objections from anyone, that is good enough for me.

[Carbo]

Making perfect sense in every context isn't exactly a requirement, it's more for the sake of having an actual game to play than anything else. If you really could warp straight to the exit of a level, what would even be the point of making a level in between?

And that comes to prove my point, "Fridge Logic". Besides it's the first time Shadow ever uses it in such a matter so really it breaks free from everything he's done up to now.

This is why I hate fans including myself. Everyone overthinks into minor details and iron out own opinions that developers probably dont give a fuck about, enough to fuck up their own continuity and contradictions to a character.

Now, here is where I agree with you: Sonic hasn't challenged Shadow for his title of Ultimate Lifeform, and probably never will (unless SEGA decides to have Sonic do just that in a future game release). And to be honest: he doesn't have to. Sonic has proven time & time again that he is just as deserving (if not moreso) of the title of Ultimate Lifeform as Shadow is.

And once again: I just want to point out that I actually LIKE & RESPECT Shadow! I'm just giving my honest & personal opinion on this matter, and nothing more.

+1 to that. Sure, Sonic has quite of an ego and attitude, but by no means is it bigger boasting than Shadow's, Jet's, or anyone that likes to challenge him to prove his skill and capability, and just look at Sonic by the way. He picks up a Chaos Emerald and manages to learn Chaos Control in just 5 seconds. In Riders, he just picks up a board and perfectly controls it only to be shot down by Jet's little stunt move. Okay so he boarded earlier throughout the different games but extreme gear is a different story, mainly cause of all the control of Turbulence, the most certain issues of having to control a floaty board etc. When it comes to speed, Sonic's always up for a race, but Sonic's never really gone about boasting over how he's the fastest thing alive.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Frog-Tan

[Unholy Sonic]

Here's how you hear the line: when you reach the 4 minute mark of the 5 minute time limit (yes, there IS a time limit to that battle), make sure that you are controlling Sonic. When you reach this point, Shadow will say the line.

I do not have a video of him saying it, though, so you're just gonna have to play it for yourself or wait until someone else gives you a video link to see it. Sorry...

Okay then, I'll just have to play it until I hear that line.

[jutgf]

Actually, Shadow needs to absorb Chaos Energy if he is to use it, which he gets from the Chaos Emeralds. So what you said all in all in that post is really balls

Someone quoted on me on this. Sonic Battle. Shadow has both a midair ability which warps him a small distance forward, and a slower ground teleport that follows up with a Chaos Blast. Both are still usable even after he surrenders his Chaos Emerald.

Sonic '06. One of his Boost moves, Chaos Snap, allows him to warp quickly between multiple enemies, comboing each of them. It was extremely glitchy, granted, but it was there, and was the result of a buyable upgrade as opposed to Chaos Emerald exposure.

Chaos Emeralds only enhance Shadow's abilities anyway - he can still do the stuff without them, just not as over-the-top. I thought this was common knowledge by now.

Shadow has no need for amps of chaos energy to use chaos control. He uses them if he needs to.

In Shadow the Hedgehog you get your first Chaos Emerald in a matter of a few seconds, and it's cause of it that Shadow manages to unlock the Chaos Powers he uses in that game.

It's proven, you can fill up the chaos gague without getting an emerald though.

When he was introduced that was practically what he did; use a Chaos Emerald to warp and whatever. He managed to save Rogue from the military base and warp them all the way out of space since she had three chaos emeralds at her disposal.

That was at his introduction, he's gotten much more stronger without an emerald at his aid to use chaos control.

I've yet to see, as you state, that Shadow can warp anything without using an emerald since at pretty much every point of the story when he uses any Chaos Power, he has a Chaos Emerald in hand.

I think your confusing gameplay with canon.

And yeah, Shadow has gotten his ass handed to him canonically in both SA2 (twice actually) and Heroes.

Let me guess, you played as Sonic through out the whole games? LOL I by logic, Shadow never lost to Sonic because I owned him 4 times in each consecutive game Shadow was playable.

Shadow has no "specialty". He just uses Chaos Power and conventional weaponry to attest to his trait which is it.

Shadow has control over the power of the chaos emeralds and the powers in it, he's immortal, he's the best jack of the trades fighter, he's been called the Ultimate Lifeform and he's a weapon specialist. How is he not special. SHadow's trademark is Chaos Control, Chaos Control just can't be used by anyone on the professional level like Shadow, the reason he can use it better than anyone else because he's the original source of the technqiue in the form of a creation making him the principle user of the technqiue. The fact is he can make the best of what he's given and still have a abilty that he knows how to wield like breathing, makes him unqiue from the others.

So technically Sonic is the higher of the ultimate life form in such case since everything from him is naturally born.

Sonic is limited and of lower impact on bringing out the true power of other sources of power, he only is good at one thing, speed. His body is as pyiscally peaked as Knuckles for god sake, he can use chaos control and chaos emeralds because he's in shape to do so. He still can't do the things Shadow can do with the chaos emeralds or chaos control itself, because it's beyond his control as a atheletic super fast hero who knows nothing but to use his speed and his speed alone to get shit done. Like I said, Externally, Sonic can do Shadow's Chaos Control, but he can't do them as advance as Shadow because he doesn't have the traits or genetic identity of the ultimate lifeform.

I doubt the creators or whatever of the Chaos Emeralds ever had in their mind that their emeralds would be discovered by some giant space flea from nowhere.

Now your just making up shit.

And I'm honestly indifferent to Shadow ever since Sonic 06 since that was his only canon story appearance that wasn't filled with angsty anti-hero gibberish, which I appreciate since it turned him more into a heroic sociopath.

At least he's no Gary Stu speedster.

[Badnik Zero]

I stand by my definition of ultimate life form to mean "perfect life". When we hear ultimate, we tend to think it means Shadow is the best. I remember someone saying the Japanese term for what they call Shadow translates more directly to "perfect life form", which makes more sense if we're to believe Gerald was looking for some kind of cure through Shadow. Can anyone back me up on that translation? Shadow doesn't have to be the only one.

[Carbo]

Someone quoted on me on this. Sonic Battle. Shadow has both a midair ability which warps him a small distance forward, and a slower ground teleport that follows up with a Chaos Blast. Both are still usable even after he surrenders his Chaos Emerald.

Sonic '06. One of his Boost moves, Chaos Snap, allows him to warp quickly between multiple enemies, comboing each of them. It was extremely glitchy, granted, but it was there, and was the result of a buyable upgrade as opposed to Chaos Emerald exposure.

Chaos Emeralds only enhance Shadow's abilities anyway - he can still do the stuff without them, just not as over-the-top. I thought this was common knowledge by now.

Shadow has no need for amps of chaos energy to use chaos control. He uses them if he needs to.

It's proven, you can fill up the chaos gague without getting an emerald though. That was at his introduction, he's gotten much more stronger without an emerald at his aid to use chaos control. I think your confusing gameplay with canon. Let me guess, you played as Sonic through out the whole games? LOL I by logic, Shadow never lost to Sonic because I owned him 4 times in each consecutive game Shadow was playable.

Shadow has control over the power of the chaos emeralds and the powers in it, he's immortal, he's the best jack of the trades fighter, he's been called the Ultimate Lifeform and he's a weapon specialist. How is he not special. SHadow's trademark is Chaos Control, Chaos Control just can't be used by anyone on the professional level like Shadow, the reason he can use it better than anyone else because he's the original source of the technqiue in the form of a creation making him the principle user of the technqiue. The fact is he can make the best of what he's given and still have a abilty that he knows how to wield like breathing, makes him unqiue from the others.Sonic is limited and of lower impact on bringing out the true power of other sources of power, he only is good at one thing, speed. His body is as pyiscally peaked as Knuckles for god sake, he can use chaos control and chaos emeralds because he's in shape to do so. He still can't do the things Shadow can do with the chaos emeralds or chaos control itself, because it's beyond his control as a atheletic super fast hero who knows nothing but to use his speed and his speed alone to get shit done. Like I said, Externally, Sonic can do Shadow's Chaos Control, but he can't do them as advance as Shadow because he doesn't have the traits or genetic identity of the ultimate lifeform.

Now your just making up shit.

At least he's no Gary Stu speedster.

So first you tell me that Sonic Battle is not to be treated canon, yet you bring that up as an example? Way to break it. Also, Sonic 06 used artificial emeralds. Chaos Snap was a skill you had to buy.

I could attest to possibly him having some slight energy, yet that energy is almost near void. And the Shadow the Hedgehog thing with filling Chaos Energy before his first emerald is pretty obviously a developer overseight since Chaos Blast is so overpowerful that there's no way he can store up all that energy. Thus proving my point. Because if he can, he's still a Gary Stu/Mary Stu. That's a bunch of nitpicking. It's not as if developers think so much into things like your average fanboy.

Call the arsekicking entirely what you want, doesn't mean that isn't one possibility. Which also brings me to prove no ending of Shadow the Hedgehog means "canon". As the promotion said, "it's up to you to decide what happens", bar the exceptions of pure evil endings. I've said it in another topic, it could end with Shadow fucking Amy for what everyone cares. The point is, it's supposed to make Shadow accept his fate, so any of the endings in Shadow could be canon depending on the player. Last Story is just an excuse for Super Shadow, another possibility. Imo the canon ending is "Shadow was created to destroy Black Doom". The pure good ending. It's after that when Shadow quits his emo stages. Sonic 06 was void of that.

And no that's not making up shit. Do you really think the source of the Chaos Emeralds had Black Arms in mind?

Weapon Specialist? Anyone can pick a gun up and use it at will. So could Sonic, but as he said, "he wouldn't want to be caught using those things". Personally I find Sonic grabbing and mastering Extreme Gear far more difficult than press trigger shit dies. Such things doesn't make you "ultimate". He's just powered by Chaos Energy, that's it. If Shadow has a trademark Chaos Control, he should have filed Sonic AND Silver for a copyright infrigment, since atleast Sonic has been using that energy to the almost same extent and for a longer time than Shadow has (Super Sonic) cause of all of that 50 years cryo-sleep whatever, not counting all the offense moves like Chaos Blast/Spear.

Also, you call Shadow the Ultimate Lifeform and Immortal yet say that "atleast he's no Gary Stu" just cause Sonic runs fast? You seriously go on about that big Shadow fanboy rant of how he's an all-immortal life being who is a master manipulater of Chaos is and runs as fast as Sonic with aid is less of a Gary Stu than Sonic?

That is the most bullshit thing I've ever heard in my life. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that contradiction.

I stand by my definition of ultimate life form to mean "perfect life". When we hear ultimate, we tend to think it means Shadow is the best. I remember someone saying the Japanese term for what they call Shadow translates more directly to "perfect life form", which makes more sense if we're to believe Gerald was looking for some kind of cure through Shadow. Can anyone back me up on that translation? Shadow doesn't have to be the only one.

This makes alot more sense.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Frog-Tan

[Vertekins]

I really don't see how Sonic can be the ultimate lifeform, ultimate lifeform-trait wise. I thought that the defining traits of an ULF is the inability to die or catch disease. As if Mephiles murdering Sonic wasn't enough to disprove it, the fact that he clearly isn't around 200 years later in the SONIC '06 timeline in which Iblis has been released surely is. If Sonic was immortal, I doubt Meph would've stated this line when warping Silver and Blaze into the past in one cutscene, something along the lines of "I'll warp you back when the Iblis Trigger was alive". It directly implies that he has died sometime in the past 200 years. Or that 'normal' hedgehog's don't have uber longetivity.

SatSr's intro also proved that Sonic can catch illness.

As for Shadow's line in the FinalHazard battle, I thought of it as Shadow's way of stating how impressed he is of Sonic's ability rather than suggesting any innate ULF traits.

[Carbo]

I really don't see how Sonic can be the ultimate lifeform, ultimate lifeform-trait wise. I thought that the defining traits of an ULF is the inability to die or catch disease. As if Mephiles murdering Sonic wasn't enough to disprove it, the fact that he clearly isn't around 200 years later in the SONIC '06 timeline in which Iblis has been released surely is. If Sonic was immortal, I doubt Meph would've stated this line when warping Silver and Blaze into the past in one cutscene, something along the lines of "I'll warp you back when the Iblis Trigger was alive". It directly implies that he has died sometime in the past 200 years. Or that 'normal' hedgehog's don't have uber longetivity.

SatSr's intro also proved that Sonic can catch illness.

As for Shadow's line in the FinalHazard battle, I thought of it as Shadow's way of stating how impressed he is of Sonic's ability rather than suggesting any innate ULF traits.

Shadow is an android. That's justified.

[Sean]

Besides as Jake said, he's the Iblis Trigger so it's all marbles.

Oh, I was just kidding.

Terms like "ultimate lifeform," "Iblis trigger," and even "extreme gear" make me giggle.

[Sega DogTagz]

I am not agreeing with some things other people have said, but I have to point some stuff out from that post a little while back.

Let me guess, you played as Sonic through out the whole games? LOL I by logic, Shadow never lost to Sonic because I owned him 4 times in each consecutive game Shadow was playable.

Dude, If you are looking for a point in the Cannon where Shadow gets pushed around in combat, than look no further than 06. Mephilies had him on the ropes in their first contest. Silver wore him down pretty good too (and then there is the whole deal of Omega being able to bring him down). If you want another example, Battle is always a good source. Shadow gets defeated several times in that game, both in his weakened state and at full power. Shoot, Emerl even takes down both Sonic and Shadow at one point.

SHadow's trademark is Chaos Control, Chaos Control just can't be used by anyone on the professional level like Shadow, the reason he can use it better than anyone else because he's the original source of the technqiue in the form of a creation making him the principle user of the technqiue.

Technically, Shadow is not the origin of Chaos Control (although technically he is as well).

That being said, Shadow is hardly the most proficient at using the ability, seeing as how Mephiles (and Solaris) could warp circles around anything Shadow has done. Shadow needed Sonic/Silver (and the equipment 2 emeralds) to time warp. Mephiles could do it on his own. Even Eggman has amped up Chaos Powers to levels unseen by Shadow.

Shadow is nothing special when compared to those guys.

The fact is he can make the best of what he's given and still have a abilty that he knows how to wield like breathing, makes him unqiue from the others.Sonic is limited and of lower impact on bringing out the true power of other sources of power, he only is good at one thing, speed. His body is as pyiscally peaked as Knuckles for god sake, he can use chaos control and chaos emeralds because he's in shape to do so. He still can't do the things Shadow can do with the chaos emeralds or chaos control itself, because it's beyond his control as a atheletic super fast hero who knows nothing but to use his speed and his speed alone to get shit done. Like I said, Externally, Sonic can do Shadow's Chaos Control, but he can't do them as advance as Shadow because he doesn't have the traits or genetic identity of the ultimate lifeform.

*cough* whoa there.

You make it sound like Sonic can only do parlor tricks with the emeralds. Sonic may never have done a Chaos Blast, but when was the last time we saw Shadow diffuse Chaos Energies onto other Characters? When was the last time Shadow healed himself with Chaos Power? When was the last time we saw Shadow pull a Tails and harness the powers of the emeralds to jump Dimensional Rifts (in the games). When was it said that the very powers of Chaos were in balance just because they were held by him, rather his blue counterpart?

Shadow has no monopoly on Chaos abilities, he just spams them.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[Chaos Member]

Really guys, you need to open your eyes and see that this is true.

SONIC = Ultiment Life Form

Now, I agree with what Slam422 said, this title is not so easily earned.

Now, here's a stupid reason to believe this, although it's still true.

I know this is not right, but it's close enough

Sonic = Super Sonic, Hyper Sonic, Ultra Sonic (Solar, Polar, and Eco Sonic), Darkspine Sonic, Dark Sonic, Excalibur Sonic, and maybe a couple more.

Shadow = Super & Hyper Shadow (And maybe Dark and Hero Shadow if you want to get technical about it)

So do you guys now see how puny Shadow is to Sonic, and yes Shadow's Chaos Powers are cool but Sonic can do Shadow's Chaos Sphere (As seen in one of the Sonic X episodes)

Edited September 28, 2009 by Chaos Member

[Unholy Sonic]

Sonic = Super Sonic, Hyper Sonic, Ultra Sonic (Solar, Polar, and Eco Sonic), Darkspine Sonic, Dark Sonic, Excalibur Sonic, and maybe a couple more.

Darkspine Sonic was born out of 3 of the 7 Secret RINGS not Chaos emeralds.

Dark Sonic was born out of his rage and hatred not the chaos emeralds.

Excalibur Sonic... *face palms* was born by

awakening Caliburns True power

and using that power for himself too!! not the Chaos emeralds.

Ultra, Solar, Polar and Echo Sonic!? now thats the first time I hear those ones... darn, can't say "not the chaos emeralds" since I got no info about those ones.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Unholy Sonic

[Legendary Emerald]

Ultra, Solar, and Polar Sonic (probably Echo too, but I don't remember it) are all from the same FUCKING RETARDED Archie comics issue. I shit you not, it was the worst issue ever made, bar none. Also, none of those forms are canon, IE: They don't actually exist in the game's universe.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Legendary Emerald

[Badnik Zero]

You know, I like to imagine up some of my own fanon and speculate where the series leaves wiggle room, but counting occasions where who beat who or counting super forms is a little dumb. I mean it's not DBZ with power levels, it's not really about who's better. Basically you can't quantify a character's worth by saying he wins fights.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik

[Unholy Sonic]

For my point of view, Shadow can use the chaos emeralds to use his own chaos powers to a level where Sonic can and use chaos powers wich sonic can't but wierd as I can find it.... Sonic is capable of maintaining his super form rather easily compare to shadow.

I don't know for sure if its because Sonic got into his super form more often then Shadow or because using the super form on shadow cost way too much energy but meh....

Personal opinion: Because I love Sonic way above any other characters , I say he's the ULF for many reasons that many people already cited.

NB: Please don't flame me.

[jutgf]

So first you tell me that Sonic Battle is not to be treated canon, yet you bring that up as an example? Way to break it. Also, Sonic 06 used artificial emeralds. Chaos Snap was a skill you had to buy.

I'm just using Shadow's moveset as a example of his own self improvement with his own unique talent with chaos control.

I could attest to possibly him having some slight energy, yet that energy is almost near void. And the Shadow the Hedgehog thing with filling Chaos Energy before his first emerald is pretty obviously a developer overseight since Chaos Blast is so overpowerful that there's no way he can store up all that energy. Thus proving my point. Because if he can, he's still a Gary Stu/Mary Stu. That's a bunch of nitpicking. It's not as if developers think so much into things like your average fanboy.

Bt your arguement was that Shadow has no priciple control over chaos control compared to others using it like he does, and I refuted back. Shadow has the abilty to hone chaos control without an emerald or external means to gain that power. This is cannon.

Call the arsekicking entirely what you want, doesn't mean that isn't one possibility. Which also brings me to prove no ending of Shadow the Hedgehog means "canon". As the promotion said, "it's up to you to decide what happens", bar the exceptions of pure evil endings. I've said it in another topic, it could end with Shadow fucking Amy for what everyone cares. The point is, it's supposed to make Shadow accept his fate, so any of the endings in Shadow could be canon depending on the player. Last Story is just an excuse for Super Shadow, another possibility. Imo the canon ending is "Shadow was created to destroy Black Doom". The pure good ending. It's after that when Shadow quits his emo stages. Sonic 06 was void of that.

Okay?

And no that's not making up shit. Do you really think the source of the Chaos Emeralds had Black Arms in mind?

Anythings possible.

Weapon Specialist? Anyone can pick a gun up and use it at will. So could Sonic, but as he said, "he wouldn't want to be caught using those things".

And yet Sonic uses a sword. Shadow uses guns because he's a free moral agent and a jack of the trades in combat. It takes more skill to use a AK 47 and shoot with one hand to me.

Personally I find Sonic grabbing and mastering Extreme Gear far more difficult than press trigger shit dies.

Dude everyone can master extreme gear. Not exclusive to Sonic at all.

Such things doesn't make you "ultimate".

Shadow being a guy who's as fast as Sonic half as strong as Knuckles and has combat experience that matches a soilders mindset doesn't make him the ultimate.

He's just powered by Chaos Energy, that's it.

He is chaos energy, he's artifically created from chaos energy, your just point out the obvious on how Shadow is more special than any other character after Sonic.

If Shadow has a trademark Chaos Control, he should have filed Sonic AND Silver for a copyright infrigment, since atleast Sonic has been using that energy to the almost same extent and for a longer time than Shadow has (Super Sonic) cause of all of that 50 years cryo-sleep whatever, not counting all the offense moves like Chaos Blast/Spear.

Sonic didn't even know what Chaos Control was untol he saw Shadow do it and Tails explain to him what it does which Tails prepared and made a fake emerald for him. If Sonic is the true master of chaos power, why didn't he discover Chaos Control before Shadow did and made him do it? And stop putting words in my mouth, I never said Chaos Emeralds power where exclusive to Shadow, I said Chaos Control was execlusive due to Shadow technically displaying the abitly in his introduction.

Also, you call Shadow the Ultimate Lifeform and Immortal yet say that "atleast he's no Gary Stu" just cause Sonic runs fast? You seriously go on about that big Shadow fanboy rant of how he's an all-immortal life being who is a master manipulater of Chaos is and runs as fast as Sonic with aid is less of a Gary Stu than Sonic?

Hey at least Shadow has an excuse, he was created to do those things, whats Sonic's excuse? He's super fast one minute and he's a sword wielding pro, a master at extreme gear and can suddenly take one reality warping foes without struggle? Color me skeptical.

That is the most bullshit thing I've ever heard in my life. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that contradiction.

Man, whatever, it's still my opinion.

I am not agreeing with some things other people have said, but I have to point some stuff out from that post a little while back.

Technically 06 didn't happen, secondly Battle was a off shoot.

He's the first one shown to use it. So he may not be the original, but he is the general user for the abilty due to him being the source of the abilty himself.

Shadow seemed really confident he could beat Mephiles and Solaris so if think about it, Shadow is more impressive because he doesn't acknowledge there powers of chaos control over his and has confidence he can surpass them. First of all, Mephiles is a clone of Shadow created from his shadow from the scepter of darkness, he was a recolor of Shadow with god powers which makes a hell of a difference when the creature was formed from Shadow himself with all his powers. Second, Solaris is a god of time, it's not fair to compare him with Shadow. Third, Shadow needed Sonic and Silver to warp back and forth through time because it's abilty is far to broken for SHadow so they had to gimp him.

Considering there dead or don't exist anymore, Shadow holds the title for Choas Control King.

Hmm, it's not canon but Sonic X when Shadow used Chaos Control to power up his attack on Eggmans Ship. Sonic Battle, it's ironically called Chaos Heal. Sonic 06 like you once said. Does that matter, it is stated Shadow has unlitmited potential with chaos emeralds which makes him virtually unstopable no matter what. Shadow IMO can bring the balance of chaos by just merging himself with an energy of one chaos emerald which allows him to amp his attacks or create new ones on the spot.

Um he sort of does, since he created them and has molded them into various techniques that show how much chaos control defines his very character.

Every single chaos abilty he has is his own creation and power.

[Carbo]

Oh, I was just kidding.

Terms like "ultimate lifeform," "Iblis trigger," and even "extreme gear" make me giggle.

Oh I know. Just implented it into the wrong sentence.

Also, on the subject of Ultimate Lifeform.

Why's no one brought up Metal Sonic anyway?

He parallels atleast as much to Shadow. He has his own will except he's intoxicated of defeating Sonic and conquering the world. He copied everyone's data. Shadow, Sonic, even Chaos for that matter (although that was mostly due to Chaos Emeralds anyway). As such he had every skill in terms of Chaos and did his ultimate transformation which all the other three teams could only distract for a while until he did another upgrade, and in the final battle the power of three supers were needed to Team Blast him, which was what truly beat him. Sure, Solaris also had three people beat them, but that was merely cause of the SA2 system of switching attributes due to ring failure. I'd say if a character goes as far to be able to copy data like a Kirby and mass it into one gigantic mostrosity, that'd be far more of an ultimate lifeform. But it just comes to show that not even an Ultimate Lifeform is immortal if we goes by such said terms. Metal Sonic was beat, in the set future for Sonic 06, Shadow would have been betrayed by everyone and subsequently he would have been killed. Personally you can call the Sonic 06 events as non canon as you want but I still treat them with importance, the only reason it DIDN'T happen was cause their future was changed to a world without Solaris. Doesn't mean the possibility wasn't still there, had it been created.

Also, I've forgotten but did Shadow really use Ultimate Lifeform anywhere beyond SA2?

And yet Sonic uses a sword. Shadow uses guns because he's a free moral agent and a jack of the trades in combat. It takes more skill to use a AK 47 and shoot with one hand to me.

Mainly cause he had to. Shadow is entirely optional.

Also, handling a sword is MUCH harder than using guns. As said, guns is mostly press trigger shit dies. The only thing Shadow has to worry about is recoil. Swords on the other hand, Sonic is running batshit insane with a heavy piece of object in his hand doing superiffic stunts even knowing the chance that he'd probably poke his or someone's eye out. This was also an example of when he supremely mastered an object in short notice. Even Merlina exclaimed her surprise with that.

He is chaos energy, he's artifically created from chaos energy, your just point out the obvious on how Shadow is more special than any other character after Sonic.

... What? I said before that whatever power that he has in him is very small. Now you're just nitpicking my post.

Sonic didn't even know what Chaos Control was untol he saw Shadow do it and Tails explain to him what it does which Tails prepared and made a fake emerald for him. If Sonic is the true master of chaos power, why didn't he discover Chaos Control before Shadow did and made him do it? And stop putting words in my mouth, I never said Chaos Emeralds power where exclusive to Shadow, I said Chaos Control was execlusive due to Shadow technically displaying the abitly in his introduction.

'Course he didn't. Didn't take him long to learn it though. I never said that Sonic is a master of chaos manipulation, what I said was that he surely knows how to use it to a same extent.

Hey at least Shadow has an excuse, he was created to do those things, whats Sonic's excuse? He's super fast one minute and he's a sword wielding pro, a master at extreme gear and can suddenly take one reality warping foes without struggle? Color me skeptical.

Funny how you're using my arguement against me. So if you want to play that way, how exactly do you think that Shadow is such a gun-wielding pro for such a short second notice? As I've again said, Shadow and Sonic are almost exacts in capability but completely different through acting, using that power and their personality in order to characterize them. So I wouldn't say that one is more Gary Stu than another, but if you managed to push that fanboy stuff onto me earlier on how he is oh-so-godly immortal even if the set 06 future made it clear that he would to be killed by Gamma, and make me not think that Shadow is a bigger of a Gary Stu than Sonic is, then I'm sorry. But it's just laughable.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Frog-Tan

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Also, you call Shadow the Ultimate Lifeform and Immortal yet say that "atleast he's no Gary Stu" just cause Sonic runs fast? You seriously go on about that big Shadow fanboy rant of how he's an all-immortal life being who is a master manipulater of Chaos is and runs as fast as Sonic with aid is less of a Gary Stu than Sonic?

Ignoring everything else regarding this rant, technically he is right on Sonic being more of a Gary Stu. Being immortal and a manipulator of Chaos doesn't automactically equal a Gary Stu, and it's still arguable on how immortal Shadow is. We don't know the full extent of that trait.

Even though Shadow has Sonic's speed, an added ability to use Chaos Control, and him being nigh-unkillable, it's still always Sonic on top of things even when it's outside of his natural abilities.

Though that's rather expected of the principal hero of a series. He's supposed to do and overcome just everything when you throw things at him.

Why's no one brought up Metal Sonic anyway?

The main reason is because he's not a lifeform. Despite his abilities, he's an artificial, electronic being. Not an organic one.

Also, I've forgotten but did Shadow really use Ultimate Lifeform anywhere beyond SA2?

A few times during Heroes and I think his own game. After that he didn't refer to himself that way...or not as much as he used to.

Edited September 29, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sega DogTagz]

He's the first one shown to use it. So he may not be the original, but he is the general user for the abilty due to him being the source of the abilty himself.

The only reason Shadow can do it is because of Black Doom. I believe it was stated that it was that very reason Professor Gerald used his blood. Stop making it sound like Shadow invented or originated the move, because he didnt.

Mephiles is a clone of Shadow created from his shadow from the scepter of darkness, he was a recolor of Shadow with god powers which makes a hell of a difference when the creature was formed from Shadow himself with all his powers. Second, Solaris is a god of time, it's not fair to compare him with Shadow. Third, Shadow needed Sonic and Silver to warp back and forth through time because it's abilty is far to broken for SHadow so they had to gimp him.

Not fair to compare Shadow to Solaris? Really? That is a lame duck argument if I ever have seen one dude. If we are debating Shadows Ultimate status, I should be able to compare him to whatever I want. Ultimate is a universal term. It is quite clear that Solaris is by and far the most able user of Chaos Control bar none.

Mephiles, body-double or not, proved that Shadows chaos prowess could be surpassed. The Ultimate anything is not supposed to be able to be surpassed in the first place. So thats another nail in that coffin.

I see your attributing gimped abilities to his need for another character to jump through time? Well lets use that argument and say Sonic cant use Chaos Blast because it would break the game and make things too easy.

yeah, mull that over a bit.

Considering there dead or don't exist anymore, Shadow holds the title for Choas Control King.

Its a hollow title. If Usain Bolt broke his legs, and someone else started calling themselves the Worlds Fastest Man, than that name wont hold much water till Bolts records fall. Same goes for Shadow. Show me Mephilies level prowess or get out. (Shadow can get out, not you. On second thought, I do love me some angsty Hedgehog. He can stay )

Till such a time comes, excuse me if I fail to bow to the new King.

Hmm, it's not canon but Sonic X when Shadow used Chaos Control to power up his attack on Eggmans Ship.

Not X, but rather Sonic Heroes and Sonic 06. Sonic can grant super states to characters around him. Completely cannon.

Sonic Battle, it's ironically called Chaos Heal.

How come I knew youd fall for that?

So Battle is good enough for you to quote fringe abilities like healing but not good enough when I want to point out Shadow losing to Emrel/Sonic? Pick one or the other dude, Sheesh.

Sonic 06 like you once said.

Shadow has never jumped Dimensions in the games. Blaze, Tails and Eggman/Nega have accomplished that feat though.

Does that matter, it is stated Shadow has unlitmited potential with chaos emeralds which makes him virtually unstopable no matter what. Shadow IMO can bring the balance of chaos by just merging himself with an energy of one chaos emerald which allows him to amp his attacks or create new ones on the spot.

It matters plenty. Sonic Rush (1&2) showcase the effect Sonic has on the Chaos Emeralds. Entire dimensions can remain stable just because he holds them in his hands. It is never said that Shadow can balance Chaos. In fact, the inherit destiny of the Chaos Emeralds spoke of in Rush, seem quite geared to Sonic (and to Blaze).

If Shadow had such Unlimited Potential, than the Eclipse Cannon would have obliterated the Earth already and Shadow wouldnt have such a rough go at taking on other characters in the franchise. If you want another example of Shadow getting the floor wiped with his skull, than look over at Chronicles. Sonic took him down single handedly (and the Voxai later control his mind). I am sure you dont consider that cannon either.

Um he sort of does, since he created them and has molded them into various techniques that show how much chaos control defines his very character.

Every single chaos abilty he has is his own creation and power.

Powers that are on loan from Black Doom.....

and whos to say Hyper Sonics screen clearing Mega Ion Burst isnt just a Chaos Blast on steroids?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Sega DogTagz