Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[DabigRG]

Gonna stop this argument by pointing out that the official consideration by Sonic Team is that IDW is merely inspired by the games rather than taking place in the same universe, much less after them. Which was the case for most of New252, actually.

The only thing that's changed is they're no longer honoring old licensing terms in favor of starting completely fresh with a different publisher. That's literally it.

And even then, some of that old stuff isn't forbidden so much as a preferred omission that can change later so they choose so. I mean, Mimic and the Metal Virus made it in and Cortez is apparently fair game as well.

[Kuzu]

The game elements in early Archie were more or less anecdotal; like they were definitely there, but the series was more centered around the setting built from SATAM as opposed to the games. Its not really until Sonic Adventure (and subsequently, Sega getting more hands on) that the game elements were becoming more overt, even moreso when Ian Flynn came on and had to streamline everything to be more in line with what the series was at the time. Post-Reboot is explicitly the point when the actual games (and not adaptations of them) were becoming canon to the comics.

But Fleetway was definitely the first adaptation to use more game elements from the outset. In fact, most traits in Fleetway would be adapted to the games later on, namely Charmy being a scatterbrain etc etc. It definitely interpreted it in its own way, but the foundation was definitely the video games unlike Archie at the time. 

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

The game elements in early Archie were more or less anecdotal; like they were definitely there, but the series was more centered around the setting built from SATAM as opposed to the games. Its not really until Sonic Adventure (and subsequently, Sega getting more hands on) that the game elements were becoming more overt, even moreso when Ian Flynn came on and had to streamline everything to be more in line with what the series was at the time. Post-Reboot is explicitly the point when the actual games (and not adaptations of them) were becoming canon to the comics.

But Fleetway was definitely the first adaptation to use more game elements from the outset. In fact, most traits in Fleetway would be adapted to the games later on, namely Charmy being a scatterbrain etc etc. It definitely interpreted it in its own way, but the foundation was definitely the video games unlike Archie at the time. 

Technically, Archie was based on notes from SatAm's early development and Karl Bollers was planning to bring in even more game stuff than he did in Return to Angel Island.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The game elements in early Archie were more or less anecdotal; like they were definitely there, but the series was more centered around the setting built from SATAM as opposed to the games.

Early Archie was even different from SatAM when you really go back into. It tone wasn’t as dark, and had more in common with AoSTH by comparison.

All in all, it should be kept in mind that this was the series early history and things were less set in stone than they are today.

[DabigRG]

47 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Now I want to know how they looked.

 

Can you not see them either?

[CertifiedNobody]

35 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Yes, they do and yes they were.

Sega themselves were even involved in their processes. Both Fleetway and Archie even had settings from the games of the classics titles that were the only materials that they had at the time, from Super Forms, special stages, Chaos Emeralds, Badnik designs, etc. and Sega even directly vetoed killing off characters like Sally Acorn in Archie’s Endgame arc. 

Literally every sub-series of this franchise has done this, including IDW of today.

The Metal Virus arc was meant for Archie and was retooled for IDW. Never mind how much the games themselves have had to retcon themselves and is much different to how things were established since the 90 when Archie and Fleetway both began alongside the games.

IDW’s benefit is that it has 30 years of material to work with that Archie and Fleetway, as well as other early works, had to make up to fill their settings, but they still utilized game elements such as the settings and plot devices that came with them. The sheer fact that they even adapted Knuckles Chaotix and Unleashed with the Shattered World Crisis (And Sonic 3D Blast, SA1&2, etc.) from the games is in itself a testament that they were representing them, because how do you not represent something by adapting it?

Again, just because something is different doesn’t make it any less of a representation of it.

They represented moments and aspects of the game universe, put the universe as a whole hadn't been accurately portrayed and adapted until IDW. yes, it had the most material. That's why it's the only one that accurately represents the game universe. If it's different, then it's absolutely not representative. At that point it becomes distinct from the original. There's a reason they had to clarify that IDW is it's own universe, despite never having to do the same for Archie or Fleetway.

39 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That doesn’t make it any less of a representation of Sonic for the Europeans.

That wasn't the point!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

They represented moments and aspects of the game universe, put the universe as a whole hadn't been accurately portrayed and adapted until IDW.

Which Ironically IDW hasn’t done yet, as they’re past the point of adapting the games like Archie and Fleetway have already done—although you could say that Year 1 was as close to a adaptation of Heroes as we were gonna get. Now IDW is making original stories with original characters much like the previous series before.

That Archie and Fleetway are different largely has to do with the fact that the series didn’t have a set in stone identity back then to begin with. IDW has more to work with and establish by virtue of coming into 20+ years of material when prior to the late 90s when SA1 came out, Archie nor Fleetway Sonic didn’t have much from the games to work with past S3&K or CD and had to fill in with what they could use. Past SA1, they already had stories going on—in Fleetway’s case, it ended on the SA1 adaptation to my knowledge, while Archie continued onward.

But they still represented the games for their time before IDW took their mantle. So IDW isn’t doing anything Fleetway and Archie haven’t already done by making their own stories with their own original characters using material from the games as it takes their place as the comic representing the games.

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

If it's different, then it's absolutely not representative. At that point it becomes distinct from the original. There's a reason they had to clarify that IDW is it's own universe, despite never having to do the same for Archie or Fleetway.

If being different makes it not representative, then by that very same standard, IDW is not a representation of the games for the exact same reason as Archie and Fleetway—You’ve already pointed out that IDW is it’s own universe.

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

That wasn't the point!

That was my point, that it was among the first representations of the game and for the region of Europe.

Doesn’t matter if it was using material based on something from another country, it represented the games for its time like Archie did alongside and after it, and like IDW does in both of their places.

[DabigRG]

36 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Which Ironically IDW hasn’t done yet, as they’re past the point of adapting the games like Archie and Fleetway have already done. Now IDW is making original stories with original characters much like the previous series before.

That Archie and Fleetway are different largely has to do with the fact that the series didn’t have a set in stone identity back then to begin with. IDW has more to work with and establish by virtue of coming into 20+ years of material when prior to the late 90s when SA1 came out, Archie nor Fleetway Sonic didn’t have much from the games to work with past S3&K or CD and had to fill in with what they could use. Past SA1, they already had stories going on—in Fleetway’s case, it ended on the SA1 adaptation to my knowledge, while Archie continued onward.

But they still represented the games for their time before IDW took their mantle. So IDW isn’t doing anything Fleetway and Archie haven’t already done by making their own stories with their own original characters using material from the games as it takes their place as the comic representing the games.

That was my point, that it was among the first representations of the game and for the region of Europe.

Doesn’t matter if it was based on something from another country, it represented the games for its time like Archie did alongside and after it, and like IDW does in both of their places.

There's also the irony in how, despite boasting more direct Sonic Team approval, the gameyness of IDW has largely been based on the primary inclusion of game characters(all of whom were already in Archie, with numerous missing in action) and half of its original characters being pitched with game mechanics behind them(which can also apply to a few Archie originals).

One of the criticisms the comic had in Year 1 was the total absence of not only established game locations barring Angel Island and not-Final Egg, but distict named locations in general. It took Year 2 to correct the latter(which is confirmed to be a preferred approach for convenience) and it as well as Year 3 to start correcting the former with Lost Hex and White Park Zone.

 

By contrast, Archie Reboot only had a select few locations that were totally original, with even Knothole and Mobotropolis now being in Wood Zone on Westside Island. So I guess what we're trying to say is... where's Green Hill Zone, with it's loop de loops and patterned terrain?

[CertifiedNobody]

51 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

By contrast, Archie Reboot only had a select few locations that were totally original, with even Knothole and Mobotropolis now being in Wood Zone on Westside Island. So I guess what we're trying to say is... where's Green Hill Zone, with it's loop de loops and patterned terrain?

It's appeared multiple times already...

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

It's appeared multiple times already...

In IDW I meant 

(Also it was a joke)

[Silvereyes]

It's going to be interesting when Sonic Rangers comes out and we see the story for that game. I imagine that is really when the IDW run and the game continuity will feel different from one another, especially when so much of IDW's groundwork is about the aftermath of Forces, which I'm guessing Rangers will sidestep any plot elements of that game. (I mean, unless Infinite does make a return?) In a way I feel like this conversation is also just a bit of an observation of the different eras of the Sonic franchise. During the Archie and Fleetway eras, games were being constantly released, new characters introduced, new bits of information and lore added. I haven't read Fleetway yet but certainly with pre-reboot, Archie it felt like it was often being thrown into a big stew with so many other ingredients, it created its own weird hogposh of continuity. With IDW, really little material has been released for IDW to be forced to adapt into its continuity. We did get that Team Sonic Racing one shot which is non-canon (although really I don't see why TSR can't be canon and happen before Forces but oh well), and ofcourse we are getting the Sonic Movie 2 mini-series tie-in. Makes me wonder if Rangers will get a comic tie-in somewhat similar to the Archie adaptation of Adventure 1, taking the story but modifying it to fit the narrative of the IDW continuity. Or maybe just another non-canon mini-series/one shot, or just ignored completely.

Fascinating stuff. Really, I still hold out slim hope we could see some IDW characters make their way to the game continuity, even in just an Olympics game. A man can dream.

[CertifiedNobody]

11 hours ago, DabigRG said:

In IDW I meant 

(Also it was a joke)

Yeah but it actually has appeared in several issues. It's in a flashback when they talk about how the badniks were aimless without Eggman leading them. and Sonic runs there to burn off his infection while Team Dark are fighting the Zombots.

11 hours ago, Silvereyes said:

It's going to be interesting when Sonic Rangers comes out and we see the story for that game. I imagine that is really when the IDW run and the game continuity will feel different from one another, especially when so much of IDW's groundwork is about the aftermath of Forces, which I'm guessing Rangers will sidestep any plot elements of that game. (I mean, unless Infinite does make a return?) In a way I feel like this conversation is also just a bit of an observation of the different eras of the Sonic franchise. During the Archie and Fleetway eras, games were being constantly released, new characters introduced, new bits of information and lore added. I haven't read Fleetway yet but certainly with pre-reboot, Archie it felt like it was often being thrown into a big stew with so many other ingredients, it created its own weird hogposh of continuity. With IDW, really little material has been released for IDW to be forced to adapt into its continuity. We did get that Team Sonic Racing one shot which is non-canon (although really I don't see why TSR can't be canon and happen before Forces but oh well), and ofcourse we are getting the Sonic Movie 2 mini-series tie-in. Makes me wonder if Rangers will get a comic tie-in somewhat similar to the Archie adaptation of Adventure 1, taking the story but modifying it to fit the narrative of the IDW continuity. Or maybe just another non-canon mini-series/one shot, or just ignored completely.

Fascinating stuff. Really, I still hold out slim hope we could see some IDW characters make their way to the game continuity, even in just an Olympics game. A man can dream.

They'll likely just continue the comic post-rangers and maybe have a quick reference to the events*.

 

[*As seen in Sonic Rangers]

[Razule]

The early comics and games started to differ very quickly because the franchise was new and the Eastern and Western continuities differed until they merged. Now that the status quo of games' universe has long since been established, new material isn't likely to diverge from that much. Unless Rangers does something truly game changing story-wise, but no game has done that in a long time 

 

[Meta77]

I just hope IDW characters show up more in future games. We already got Whisper and Tangle. I would eventually would not be shocked if they used them more in side projects or future "non team" racing games.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

I just hope IDW characters show up more in future games. We already got Whisper and Tangle. I would eventually would not be shocked if they used them more in side projects or future "non team" racing games.

I agree, mainly because the franchise is pretty lacking in terms of villains that haven't been killed or redeemed, and Starline, Rough, Tumble, Mimic, Surge, and Kit would help balance things out between heroes and villains. And they'd all make for great boss battles.

[DabigRG]

20 hours ago, Meta77 said:

I just hope IDW characters show up more in future games. We already got Whisper and Tangle. I would eventually would not be shocked if they used them more in side projects or future "non team" racing games.

 

19 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I agree, mainly because the franchise is pretty lacking in terms of villains that haven't been killed or redeemed, and Starline, Rough, Tumble, Mimic, Surge, and Kit would help balance things out between heroes and villains. And they'd all make for great boss battles.

Eh, idk.

 

Like, Speed Battle was a relatively good place to put em just because nearly every other notable character was already there and they was effectively a sponsorship for the comics much like the costumes leaned on certain events and Long Claw advertised the movie.

 

But the moment they start trickling into other, much less vacant games, issues with cross up for both them and the comics.

[MetalSkulkBane]

I agree, if IDW got too much merged with games (as unlikely as it is),it could get messy.

I mean think of mandates.
"Hey Flynn. We made a game where Starline is Eggman's sidekick. This is the way we're promoting him, so please drop everything: plans, character development common sense. Just make him work for Eggman again."

[CertifiedNobody]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

 

Eh, idk.

 

Like, Speed Battle was a relatively good place to put em just because nearly every other notable character was already there and they was effectively a sponsorship for the comics much like the costumes leaned on certain events and Long Claw advertised the movie.

 

But the moment they start trickling into other, much less vacant games, issues with cross up for both them and the comics.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I agree, if IDW got too much merged with games (as unlikely as it is),it could get messy.

I mean think of mandates.
"Hey Flynn. We made a game where Starline is Eggman's sidekick. This is the way we're promoting him, so please drop everything: plans, character development common sense. Just make him work for Eggman again."

As long as Sega informs them of their plans maybe a year or so in advance, I don't see the issue. They'd have enough time to connect things to the game storyline without it damaging the existing plots. Or maybe they'll even just get Ian Flynn to write the game's story given his growing role in the franchise with Sonic Prime, Rise Of The Wisps, and Episode Shadow. Yeah, it could stifle potential plots if they're forced to work around the games, but I think it's worth it to make the IDW characters canon to the games. At least then Sega can't forget about them once the comic eventually ends.

[MetalSkulkBane]

20 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

As long as Sega informs them of their plans maybe a year or so in advance, I don't see the issue. They'd have enough time to connect things to the game storyline without it damaging the existing plots. Or maybe they'll even just get Ian Flynn to write the game's story given his growing role in the franchise with Sonic Prime, Rise Of The Wisps, and Episode Shadow. Yeah, it could stifle potential plots if they're forced to work around the games, but I think it's worth it to make the IDW characters canon to the games. At least then Sega can't forget about them once the comic eventually ends.

That's a lot of optimistic assumptions.

Many people wanted Flynn to write Sonic games for years, no effect.

Sega ignores game characters, they will ignore comic characters.

And even if they "inform Flynn in advance" my point is that Sega characters are static, while IDW characters are allowed to change. Flynn said that more than once.  If comic characters get integrated into game cast, they most likely will be forced to remain static too.

[CertifiedNobody]

Ian gave a #knowingsmile when asked about a Knuckles-focused story in the future. Can't wait to see my favorite character get some love. He hasn't even appeared since Sonic "died".

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

That's a lot of optimistic assumptions.

Many people wanted Flynn to write Sonic games for years, no effect.

Sega ignores game characters, they will ignore comic characters.

And even if they "inform Flynn in advance" my point is that Sega characters are static, while IDW characters are allowed to change. Flynn said that more than once.  If comic characters get integrated into game cast, they most likely will be forced to remain static too.

I was proposing ways for them to integrate the comic characters.

And characters being static may only apply to game-original characters, we don't know Sega's policy on comic imports because that kind of thing hasn't happened since Charmy and Amy were taken from the Sonic manga nearly 30 years ago.

[MetalSkulkBane]

4 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I was proposing ways for them to integrate the comic characters.

And characters being static may only apply to game-original characters, we don't know Sega's policy on comic imports because that kind of thing hasn't happened since Charmy and Amy were taken from the Sonic manga nearly 30 years ago.

Well, those propositions are way too optimistic.

Look, origin doesn't matter. Amy isn't manga character anymore, she's game character. If Sega for some reasons decided to take Tangle and put in games, with same importance as Chaotix or Blaze, then the same rules will apply to her.

Why? Starline example. Sonic games don't do complex continuity anymore. Every game tells it's own story.
It's reasonable to demand from comic reader to try keeping up with continuity of ongoing series that updates every month.
It's less reasonable to expect it from gamers, when there can be years of game between releases. When audience includes kids who don't read or casual players, who don't care about large Sonic lore. Sonic games DON'T sell themselves on story. It's a little bonus.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Well, those propositions are way too optimistic.

Look, origin doesn't matter. Amy isn't manga character anymore, she's game character. If Sega for some reasons decided to take Tangle and put in games, with same importance as Chaotix or Blaze, then the same rules will apply to her.

Why? Starline example. Sonic games don't do complex continuity anymore. Every game tells it's own story.
It's reasonable to demand from comic reader to try keeping up with continuity of ongoing series that updates every month.
It's less reasonable to expect it from gamers, when there can be years of game between releases. When audience includes kids who don't read or casual players, who don't care about large Sonic lore. Sonic games DON'T sell themselves on story. It's a little bonus.

And yours are pessimistic. It balances out,

I wasn't making a point about Amy or Charmy, i just didn't want to lie and say Sega had never brought comic characters into the games. But we don't know how the rules work when there's no precedent set.

Rangers is taking the series in a new direction, so we can't easily say how things could/couldn't work until 2022. Audiences include kids, but Sega's admitted a large chunk of their audience is teens/adults. And I'd argue Forces sold itself on story.

[KoDaiko]

Tbh none of the current IDW villain (ok maaaybe Rough and Tumble) feels good enough for me to want them in the game. Also any characterization in comics will be lost/simplified so there's that.

Mimic is centered around Whisper, and even if we removed that his only gimmick is disguise and his only attack is swinging a knife. Though it's hilarious to imagine him stabbing Sonic with an actual dagger in game. Current Starline is basically knockoff Eggman with ridiculous upgrades. Seriously though, why does he have hypnosis, superkick, superminions AND the tricore? Surge and Kit, not sure how they'll do until their arc comes out...but their design being a bit too on-the-nose (if it was just Surge it wouldn't bother me as much) would bother me in they appeared in game.

I'd rather Sega do their own thing in the game, and leave the IDW ones to do its own thing in the comic. Or like, make new game-catering ones while taking note/reference of the comic stuff.

[DabigRG]

@KoDaiko hit on another point that's very important: is there even a place for these characters in the games?

Tangle's always been the big one because, on top of being yet another hero, she's not all that unique or even useful. She has a good design sure and is allegedly meant to be more of a brawler than most of the other female characters, but is actually not very distinct when it comes to her personality or role. Even putting the "Kindred Spirit to Sonic" theme IDW pushed initially aside, she's basically another Amy(plus Marine and Charmy) when you get down to it: an energetic Sonic fangirl who's really eager to go on adventures and fight bad guys. Do we really need another character like that in games when Amy is still considered a main character, nevermind how they aren't exactly the most wellregarded?

Jewel is kind of a mixed bag in that regard as well. She was made to be another Tails or Cream and hasn't gotten much chance to do anything thus far due to how reserved and stationary she is. Now she's actually a bit more unique in that she is another bug(which Sega isn't that fond of, but allowed this once) and her hobby of collecting gems from dangerous places is kinda neat, but then you could say she's still a supposed sidekick for Tangle and is more of an accessory.

Mimic is another funny case in that while he is a villain with a unexpected species and gimmick, he's still just a guy with a knife. Plus, he was only brought in because he happened to fit what they needed for Whisper's backstory, so he's arguably the least usable of the original characters thus far.

 

Most of the others would far better though, since they actually add something to the cast that isn't really in use or steps on any of the major recurring character's toes, particularly Rough and Tumble. That said, you still have the road blocks of whether they make the transition truly unscathed, whether they'd work as well, if they'd even get the chance to be trotted out for much at all, or in Starline case, whether the games can accommodate their characters without the stories that were integral for building them up as a side effect.

 

 

 

[Kuzu]

You would really have to just diversify them a bit in the details; like just because Shadow exists didn't stop the series giving Sonic any more rivals.