Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Razule]

56 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

The Metal Virus makes it hard to not support an Eggman death penalty, but the fact that he was crucial in undoing the Virus and defeating the Deadly Six, as well as getting them the Warp Topaz, does at least lessen the overall impact. Plus, it's clear from the beginning that he never intended the world to become a decayed metal wasteland.

He knew the Zombots decaying would happen, what he didn't plan on was not being able to control them long enough for that to not matter. His plan was to use the infected population to take over other worlds. He intended on leaving the world a wasteland and then use the infected to take over other worlds.

[IWriteAlright]

@MetalSkulkBane I don't think anyone wants sonic to be a murderer. In fact I think many of us agree that his continued choice to abstain from such action says a lot about his character. Not only that I will go against the video and say not only can you make an interesting story out of that. I think its actually morally responsible to acknowledge what you can and can't do where you can and cant go and make that known. That people can't come to for that sort of things to set boundaries.

The issue is , sonic is not a passive participant in his morality , he's an active one. The point that the video makes is inaction is still action, I wholeheartedly believe this. However sonic has not been inactive in fact quite the opposite and his action has continued to paint all the narrative around this plot point in a bad light and himself. When Sonic has his argument with shadow, that's not inaction. Sonic is taking action to stop someone else from taking action and that's the issue. He never addresses that at all. He frames it as he wants to live free and allow other people to do so. But when he fought shadow , he fought to take away shadow's autonomy and in association the autonomy of those eggman would zombify in the future. This sonic does not live by the code he sets, he just doesn't want to give everyone a chance. He wants to FORCE everyone to act in accordance to how he view things and that's the issue.

If that moment didn't exist sonic's issues with espio would seem like reasonable momentary frustrations. His speech to zavok would seem like the aforementioned setting of boundries. Declaring that he's not jut that guy,  but he is willing to fight you so you aren't that guy , and that's an issue. Because once he does that , he's an active participant in the atrocities that occurred. Yes, you can say that inaction is still bad and i very much agree with that, but this beyond even that because at least in his inaction someone else could have solved the problem. He prevented someone from solving the issue, this goes against his beliefs and twists his words with context that were never intended.

He states that he will just beat zavok up when he tries to do bad? Ok, so sonic has declared that shadow trying a more permanent solution , as bad. If Eggman has a laser trained on the planet and is going to destroy a continent of people, would sonic fight shadow to stop him from killing eggman. Normally I would say no, he would feel bad about it but he would understand life doesn't work out the way you want it to. This sonic however, might. And that says a lot of bad things about his priorities. And it doesn't help that there's dialog that goes along with this, a hyper focus on staying morally pure rather than assessing the atrocities at hand.

He didn't just dig himself in a hole as you said, he has shackled sonic to a giant weight and everytime he runs it slams and breaks everything in its path occasionally it even harms sonic himself. Ian has the key he could free sonic from this and we could all move on, but he continues.

@DabigRG
Narratively you have to say something about this. However if you are in a situation where the IP holder or your writing room doesn't really agree on a solution that addresses the narrative issue or at least makes sonic look good, not addressing it is an option. Knowing when to drop a plot point is a strength, and while it might not make the most sense for the viewer they will appreciate it in the long run.

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, IWriteAlright said:

When Sonic has his argument with shadow, that's not inaction. Sonic is taking action to stop someone else from taking action and that's the issue.

Sonic takes action to prevent Shadow taking action to prevent Eggman from taking any actions ever again.

12 minutes ago, IWriteAlright said:

He wants to FORCE everyone to act in accordance to how he view things and that's the issue.

What hero doesn't, on some level.

13 minutes ago, IWriteAlright said:

If Eggman has a laser trained on the planet and is going to destroy a continent of people, would sonic fight shadow to stop him from killing eggman. Normally I would say no, he would feel bad about it but he would understand life doesn't work out the way you want it to. This sonic however, might.

I think any Sonic would, if he felt they could still stop Eggman without doing so. And given the nature of the series, they could.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Which he had procured by that point. I honestly thought Espio springing her was him at first.

Oh BTW, the tone of that scene got a little fuzzy at one or two points.

He was still gleefully pushing forward a glorified zombie apocalypse though, complete with Walking Dead style moments among Vector and Cream.

He was aiming for Roboticization. the mindless zombie hordes were mostly a mutation.

[DabigRG]

9 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

He was aiming for Roboticization. the mindless zombie hordes were mostly a mutation.

Why, that's technically accurate--this is indeed the replacement for the Roboticizer Axel heard rumors of.

[KoDaiko]

Isn't Sonic okay with murder if neccessary? IIRC he tosses the lamp w/ Erazor inside the lava, was ok with killing King Authur, and usually leaves Eggman to his doom after defeating him.

6 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

The Metal Virus makes it hard to not support an Eggman death penalty, but the fact that he was crucial in undoing the Virus and defeating the Deadly Six, as well as getting them the Warp Topaz, does at least lessen the overall impact. Plus, it's clear from the beginning that he never intended the world to become a decayed metal wasteland.

Eggman has been doing multiple large-scale destruction and world-ending schemes before the Metal Virus. Idk why they're suppose to be questioning morality at this point.

I think it was much better if they didn't point out fictional logic that the audience is not really supposed to question. It's basically asking why Princess Peach doesn't have better security in her castle or why Mega Man never learns and believes Wily whenever he says he's surrendering for good. It's obvious Sega will make the comic return to status quo with no one learning anything significant.

 

(maybe related maybe not, several month ago someone asked Evan's view on Sonic's moral code & prison stuff. Q&A pasted under spoilers.)

Spoiler

I really appreciated the line from Amy at the end of Test Run where she says that The Restoration's "not about to start taking prisoners." Are you open to or have you considered placing more emphasis on non-carceral resolutions of conflict in the world of IDW? I ask as I've been operating under the assumption that stuff like "Everhold Prison" aren't mandatory additions to the world, since there's no real game counterpart. I understand if your hands are tied, it's just an issue that matters to me

The Restoration is a peaceful humanitarian organization so other than the handful of guards they have on staff, they don’t have any sort of military or police force and don’t intend to get one.

While prisons can be interesting settings (i.e. the prison in SA2, etc.), I don’t really wanna see Sonic and Co. locking people up. Unlike Archie’s Freedom Fighters, our heroes are a bunch of teenage adventurers with no systemic authority. It doesn’t make sense for them to be arresting people, and it goes against Sonic’s moral code anyway. I’m more into exploring stories where they try to reach out and help the antagonists (whether it works or not), find creative solutions, or just writing it so the antagonists get away to fight another day. That’s more in tune with Sonic’s method of problem-solving and the series’ themes.

----

Building off on your answer to msfeleciarondo question, how do you see Sonic moral code exactly? Cause it has varied a lot between different interpretations of the character along with his moral code even being a bit inconsistent within the modern games.

DISCLAIMER: These are not any sort of “Official Rules of Sonic”, it’s just some guidelines I’ve made for myself based on observation of the source material, and what makes me happy.

My favorite touchstones for Sonic’s morals are Sonic and the Black Knight, and his theme song It Doesn’t Matter.

Sonic isn’t interested in discovering an empirical version of morality, or with the laws and mores of society. His one and only guide is his own instinct, and his rules are simple:

• You can do whatever you like, as long as it’s not hurting others or the natural world.
• Don’t mourn or fight natural change.
• Treat others with empathy (this is the one he most often falls short of, his own ego getting in the way… but hey he’s trying!).
• Offer second chances. If someone has even the slightest chance of becoming kinder or happier, give them the opportunity.
• And of course, anybody who opposes or disregards these rules gets a shiny red boot to the face.

That’s how I’d boil it down right now, and these are the rules I follow when I’m writing him for work. One more important thing is that Sonic is reactive, not proactive. He’ll answer a call for help of course, but otherwise, he waits for trouble to come to him or comes upon it by coincidence.

(GOTF Sonic has some of these principles flipped; he mourns change, is very proactive, and can be quite merciless. It started as an oversight on my part, but as I got older and learned more about the character it became a very useful tool for exploring Sonic’s limits).

 

[IWriteAlright]

@Diogenes
Those actions are regularly murdering millions people, trying to enslave entire worlds and multiple attempts to take over the universe. When you don't sugarcoat those actions sonic's defense of eggman seems a lot less reasonable and a lot more weird. And while yes heroes have ideas, they don't go defending tyrants  that continue to enslave people. And lastly no, I think there are some sonic's that wouldn't really fight shadow about it, they would feel bad and maybe trying and ask shadow to find another way. But ultimately understand. as @KoDaiko Points out adventure era sonic was more than willing to let people die. I also agree with their assessment it would be better if they didn't question sonic and eggman's dynamic at all.

Another angle to look at this is, I don't think most of the people have an issue with sonic having these ideals more so they can never be tested. Ian flynn speaks on this in his podcast , sonic can't really think about the past. So if sonic locks shadow in a room to prevent him from killing eggman and then eggman blows up Australia because he really doesn't like koala's or something sonic can't actually think about or consider the millions of people who died, he can only consider not killing eggman. Thus his ideals can't really be tested because he isn't allowed to care. I feel it would be much better to avoid this sort of thing entirely. I remember fondly a story in archie where sonic genuinely felt bad for eggman loosing his mind, I don't think you could tell a story like that in sonic these days. Sonic can't show that much sympathy he can only defend his ideals, and those are two very different things.

That post from evan is funny, because it succinctly explains her description of shadow as " a murder hobo " . Well, he isn't jailing people so...

 

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

6 hours ago, IWriteAlright said:

@MetalSkulkBane I don't think anyone wants sonic to be a murderer. In fact I think many of us agree that his continued choice to abstain from such action says a lot about his character. Not only that I will go against the video and say not only can you make an interesting story out of that. I think its actually morally responsible to acknowledge what you can and can't do where you can and cant go and make that known. That people can't come to for that sort of things to set boundaries.

I mean, yeah? Of course no one wants Sonic to be murderer. But we want scary Eggman. I agree. I'm just pointing a massive problem with every single fiction that wants to have serious murdering villains and joke-throwing heroes who won't kill. Sonic refuses to kill? Fine, I can buy that. But the fact that he treat's this as a fun adventure? That he lets Eggman get away? That creates at least a liiiiiitle dissonance.

THAT is what everyone wants. To have a cake and eat it too. Thus I promote Suspension of Disbelief. No excuses will satisfy readers, so just agree to ignore it for sake of fun. That's my policy.

As for issue 6 with Shadow, ultimately Sonic used words to stop Shadow. "Fight" (to use phrase loosely) was just forcing Shadow to first listen to arguments before he makes decision. I can swallow that logic.

[Diogenes]

7 hours ago, IWriteAlright said:

Those actions are regularly murdering millions people, trying to enslave entire worlds and multiple attempts to take over the universe. When you don't sugarcoat those actions sonic's defense of eggman seems a lot less reasonable and a lot more weird.

I don't think you can properly discuss the series without sugarcoating those things; it's not real and it's not trying to be real. You can't map situations directly to their real world equivalents because this is a series about a talking hedgehog with superpowers who will always stop the bad guy in time.

[IWriteAlright]

@Diogenes Its not real , but like most stories its inspired by real things and reference those things , like moral quandaries / oppression/ dictators and tyrants etc will make people think about those things. And depending on how those things are framed will inform how one thinks about it. And even your description of the series isn't true, because there's a character who's backstory is that their entire race summoned a god and committed a genocide on itself. There's another character who's backstory is the government assassinates everyone and everything he's ever known then proceeds to lock him up for half a century and then let him out the game this takes place in has overt anti fascist themes and a direct criticism of the American military and cops and said character still has ptsd about it to this day. Then there's this other character who came from a completely destroyed future devoid of life and hope. It isn't actually that simple or bright and sunny as you paint it. And lets not even begin to get into , the dark things allowed to take place in this very comic some of which have references to real life concepts like death and grief.

To say " its just not real " doesn't really help anything because this series likes to reference real things, like most fiction in general, and use them to create its story. Aforementioned character with ptsd was created to cure his friend of a disease called S.I.D.S that is based on a real life auto immune disorder.

My point is, if you are going to reference something, like a moral quandary regarding the ethics of killing your local dictator, make sure the world its characters and the story are equipped to actually deal with the influences you are taking on. And I don't think sonic is. I agree with you in a sense that , you can't view sonic and eggman as characters in anything but their very specific context or sonic looks bad. Because they aren't real and the moment you start applying actual thought and logic to those characters they both become more ill intentioned.

But WE aren't the ones viewing it in that context, voluntarily at least. Ian Flynn is, and that's the problem. This is not the case of a fanbase reading too far into something, Ian Flynn presented this himself and then clarified saying that he wrote it to be ambiguous. So not only did he write this he invited all manner of discussion. I think this entire thought process is the problem.

 

 

[Kuzu]

Its kind of the same issue Pokemon had in Gen 5 with it's whole "Pokemon battles are wrong" narrative, in that it tries to subvert the norm of the series by calling attention to it. Except battling is quite literally the point and central theme of the franchise, so trying to subvert that was never going to work. They even had to handwave the whole thing by saying "Pokemon actually LIKE battles" to scrub away all of the negatives of the situation.

There's nothing wrong with subverting the central premise and theme of your series, but it doesn't really work with franchises designed for mass market appeal above storytelling. Addressing and potentially changing the status quo like that was never going to work. 

 

[Kazhnuz]

Well, my issue with the whole schtick, is more that it still miss a send-of, a "finale". For me, Sonic going back against Eggman and saying "everywhere, everytime" would have been a proper send off (Sonic take the decision to continue on his vision of the world). I suppose that the solution would be then to make Belle the final, to get some sort of "book end" (with different way of handling it). That's for me the biggest problem : this storyline kinda need a conclusion, Sonic doing something cool that is nice and give a meaning of the previous interaction. I don't think it's impossible to do in the confine of the narrative, but without a "reward", it's difficult to really drive that.

Another part of my issue is that Flynn should kinda overanalyze a bit less the IP, for me. It's a bit of the same issue he have with Shadow, and why for me he handle it less gracefully than Evan do : he try a tad too much to rationalize it.

 

But eh, his tendencies overanalyzing is also what get us some really cool stuff, and clever views or ideas.

[SkyHorizon]

I don't really see the issue some of you have: Eggman CANNOT die, it's a SEGA character, we all know that. Flynn bothering to give an explanation to why he won't be killed is great. I mean, differently from the Sonic Games and their (often) poor storytelling, the strong point of the comics is continuity, you cannot not address the subject one way or the other. That and it's not like the heroes take stupid actions like letting the villains free just like that: Eggman was brainwashed, Metal Sonic was disarmed, Zavok and Mimic were imprisoned and the Zeti were sent on their world without a mean to come back. So... yeah, people who criticize Flynn for how he wrote these decisions, I'd like to hear HOW he should have written those moments...

Let's take the example of Issue 6. For me Shadow was totally right: Eggman needed to be killed. I mean, he's a mass genocidal, Robo-Hitler if you want. I also knew that Eggman could not be killed for the aformentioned reasons. That said, I liked a lot the issue and I think Sonic had a point when he said to Shadow: "if you can be forgiven, can't he?" Of course, we're biased because we know that Eggman (differently from Shadow) will never fully reform, but in-context, I had to admit that Sonic had a point. And it gives a nice excuse to justify keeping Eggman around.

@Diogenes I think you hit the spot: you cannot do a 1:1 comparison with the real world, people tend to forgot this is a comic book about furry anthros .

@KoDaiko Oh, and the comparison with Mega Man is perfect for a reason: Flynn managed to give a perfectly logical explanation (as far as he could) as to why Mega Man / Light would forgive Light in Mega Man 3. That's precisely the same thing.

[thumbs13]

I think writers should just not point out glaring questions they don't really have the answer to. The Batman/Joker stuff gets more annoying every time it's mentioned. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They’ve actually done more to go out of their way to explain the Batman/Joker dynamics and the consequences of killing Joker, so…would actually be an interesting story to explore with decent enough effort.

[dbzfan7]

This is kinda why I think having some Elseworld stories would be neat. Stories where you're not held back by status quo but have a beginning and end. Maybe What if stories or something to spice things up on the side.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

This is kinda why I think having some Elseworld stories would be neat. Stories where you're not held back by status quo but have a beginning and end. Maybe What if stories or something to spice things up on the side.

I'd love to see something like SegaScourge's Sonic What If? in comic form. Seeing dead characters and certain storylines get more time to shine without impacting the main timeline would be fun.

[IWriteAlright]

What if's would be cool. Not only as stories but also as a potential mine for cool things that can be brought into mainline if people like it enough. It could be used to explore things that can't normally be explored, with the back up excuse that isn't canon in any regard. There's been quite a few questions about in the bumblekast as of late.

To end an earlier conversation. I think its funny that while I don't enjoy all of chao bases and I certainly think sonic, starling, and shadow shouldn't have showed up. It does better at providing an interesting moral dilemma with rouge and shadow than any of Ian Flynn's attempts to have sonic grand stand about it. Instead of yelling from the roof tops , it was down to earth reasonable take about while yes its important to fight big bads, improving the material conditions of those around you is also an important part of heroism. I really appreciate that moment in that story.

 

[Sonictrainer]

Jennifer Hernandez drew halloween art of Jewel & Whisper

[CertifiedNobody]

21 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Jennifer Hernandez drew halloween art of Jewel & Whisper

Jewel and Whisper are far from my choices for Halloween-themed Sonic characters, but she made it work

[Red Hot Jack]

I've just thought of something, something I like from season 3: Tails is now a main character, this is a problem I had with season 1 because he appeared just as much as any other character, meanwhile here he is in nearly every issue (or every issue precisely, I can't remember), and I like it this way, Tails deserves to be important, almost as much as Sonic.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Jack-al said:

I've just thought of something, something I like from season 3: Tails is now a main character, this is a problem I had with season 1 because he appeared just as much as any other character, meanwhile here he is in nearly every issue (or every issue precisely, I can't remember), and I like it this way, Tails deserves to be important, almost as much as Sonic.

In "Neo Saga" he had as much time as possible in 12 issues, considering short time and number of characters. Plus he got to fly a ship into a giant dragon which is way cooler than what Blaze, Silver, Knuckles or did and more helpful than Shadow.

Overall I feel like he got to do more cool stuff than anyone else, possibly including Sonic. He was absolute boss in #13, rode in Tornado through army of zombies, defeated Zomom, outsmarted Zavok. The list goes on. Compare to Amy who has pretty similar screen time, but rarely got to save the day.

But that's gonna just matter of preferences, no "right answer" here. Plus I guess movie is coming, so he will get extra love.

[Kuzu]

Tails has literally been front and center with Sonic for over ten years across all media. The idea that he's "neglected" in any shape or form is laughable when he's by far the most prominent character in the series besides Sonic and Eggman.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Tails has literally been front and center with Sonic for over ten years across all media. The idea that he's "neglected" in any shape or form is laughable when he's by far the most prominent character in the series besides Sonic and Eggman.

Agreed. Sure, he hasn't been playable in years with the exception of Mania, but he's been a prominent character in the stories and with the exception of that one scene in Forces nobody can move on from, he's been treated as the most competent character in the games. Knuckles, Amy, and Shadow were treated way worse in the last 10 years, and the only one of them that's gotten close to the amount of prominence in IDW as Tails is Amy.

It kind of feels like IDW has been overcompensating a little with Tails. Granted, it's not bad overcompensation. It never takes away from the book and is still in-character and well written, but it does feel a little unnecessary, like they're repeatedly trying to appease Tails fans that got their jimmies rustled by Forces.

[DabigRG]

It sorta brings me back to about six years ago, where I concluded he felt like the most boring of the central characters to me. That was actually a thing that arose from Boom specifically, but it is sorta appropriate that it carried over into the series proper for a while.

He's pretty much the "Safe Character" of the cast, when you think about it--he's a foil to Sonic in the sidekick sense, he accommodates the fields Sonic himself generally doesn't without stealing his thunder(unlike Knuckles, Silver, and Shadow), he helps the good guys keep in step with Eggman's tech(which no one else besides maybe Rotor has), he's someone he can talk to during cutscenes with no issue(nearly anyone besides Cream and maybe Espio), and when the cast got drastically reigned in as part of getting back to basics, he's the only one that stuck on aside from the many two because he's effectively a part of what is generally documented as the basics. It's pretty hard to get him wrong, so when Misters Pontac & Graff did in Lost World and Sonic Team alumni did in Forces, it really stuck out and is remembered as the [second(?)] clearest sign that something is "wrong" with the series nowadays. 

And that overall vibe inherently carries over to IDW, honestly, which is natural due to it being the most game loyal spinoff since the anime Sonic X. While there's probably notes and maybe a select few restrictions on the kit that we just never had reason to here about due to it never really causing any problems, he's easily the most game accurate character in the comic(kinda like in Boom, natch) due to the lack of overt adaptational characterization, odd dialogue, and off moments in general. The closest we got that I can think of is his very brief BSOD in the Metal Virus finale and even that's pretty much in character with the bonus of acknowledging how the similar moment in Forces wasn't that OoC to begin with(circumstances notwithstanding).

You know what, though? That simultaneously makes him one of the more "fine/eh" characters and yet one that kinda gets a thumbs up fairly often. Like, make no mistake--I still personally don't excited or interested or anything whenever he's getting focus, but idk, it does indeed seem like the comic gets him right in vaguely neat ways?

* Back in Issue 1(the least interesting of the first four or year), when he has that silent moment of lament, it just worked in a simple yet freshing way(a sentiment I do sorta miss about the comics in a way lately)--like, it can function as remorse for THAT moment from a meta standpoint, but is primarily a general continuity nod to what's actually important/intended around it that just fits.

* Really small irrelevant thing, but his face compare to his actual conduct when friggin Tangle just walks on into his place was genuinely funny and honestly part of the start of the comic actually getting her "right" imo.

* I clearly remember, when the cover of his issue in the Metal Virus Saga was solicited, going, "See, you CAN do neat things with Tails" or something to that effect.

* And more in tune with recent events, seeing him vs Zomom/Zavok(the latter of which really should've been another good moment across the board, but got overshadowed by "Why does Sonic think Zavok has good in himrrr" getting previewed literally the same day) got a nonpareil "Ah, that makes a decent amount of sense."

I still naturally welcome almost any other character getting to really shine before him, but I'm also not dreading whenever he's in the book and am more or less back at the level of Okay regarding him