Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[DarkRula]

I'm positive about this game, but I can still point its flaws and that with the series as a whole from my view.

And the biggest one I can see is from the reveal trailer and Classic. When I first saw that "Even Heroes Need Help" I felt a jump of excitement - we're getting another character to play as? Maybe a crowd of them will rush on scene, and there'll be an epic end to the trailer [hyped expectations, I know]. Instead, Classic shows up.

Think on it, and this is about the series as a whole as well. For someone who wants other playable characters to return - Espio, given my preference - and seeing this setting, it's a perfect excuse to expand on what Heroes gave us. Three individual types of play, all using the same design with differing features. Speed is speed. Fly is fly. Power is power. Swappable characters, with routes for each type.
And when Classic shows up, that's all thrown out the window in a matter of seconds. Yes, Generations worked. I'm not denying that at all, and if some config error hadn't struck it down I still would be playing it. But as was said above, it's about expansion for the next game, and aside from the graphics I'm not really seeing all that much.

However, I'm still waiting for E3, still hoping I can go from middle ground to excitement for Forces.

[Scar]

Classic Sonic could be a 1:1 recreation of the Mega Drive gameplay with new heights of level design. I'd still think its a poor idea to have it be in Sonic Forces, and would rather it just be its own standalone game.

The problem is, Classic Sonic is a crutch, because Sonic Team cannot justifiably produce a boost game that has no secondary gimmick (and lasts more than 60 seconds). Sonic's 3D gameplay is simultaneously too shallow and too resource intensive to stand on its own. That is a fact. Unleashed had the Werehog, Generations had Classic Sonic (was still a pretty short game), and now Forces has Classic Sonic and Mysterious 3rd gameplay^TM.  The only boost game that didn't have a secondary mechanic or gameplay was Colours, which was much slower than the other three boost games, and had multiple mini-levels which took the exact same level layouts from previous acts and rearranged gimmicks in them, because it would take too much development time to create 6 totally unique 3-5 minute acts. Oh and they had the Wisps, which too are appearing in Forces.

Damn, Forces really is some Frankenstein's monster of a game. Taking little bits of everything from the past 10 years, without really having an identity of its own.

 

Classic Sonic's stages all having chip-tunes is disappointing, but I can deal as long as the composition is better than whatever the fuck Forces Hill Zone was.

[Kintor]

20 minutes ago, Scar said:

Damn, Forces really is some Frankenstein's monster of a game. Taking little bits of everything from the past 10 years, without really having an identity of its own.

This really is an unusual line of thought, taking little bits of everything is kind of what you'd expect from a sequel in a long running video game franchise. Few games should be so luck as to have decades of history to drawn upon. As for the question of identity, I think that the darker tone is already getting the point across. Even something bright and colour like the Green Hill Zone and Sonic Forces still fits that theme, thanks to the sand being replaced by water and the latest batch of decidedly meaner looking Badniks.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

6 hours ago, The Deleter said:

Oh my goodness I knew it

5 years

5 years have passed and you still do the exact same things

 

I just asked you a simple, direct, to the point question, man? Why do you have to ignore it?

People back on the SEGA forum legitimately didn't know whether you were a spam bot or not. I hope you know why...

Oh my God! I remember this guy from Sega Forums too! It really was hard to tell back in the day!

6 hours ago, KHCast said:

Oh my god, you can't just answer the simple fucking question?

 Not unless it involves somehow crapping on Nintendo or games he hates. 

[NegaMix]

Something that's also bothering me about Classic Sonic being here is that, with him around, we know that the plot will very likely involve time travel once again. I'm not the only one who's getting kinda sick of seeing that plot point constantly coming back in another Sonic game, am I? Especially when it seemed to be a recurring element for the past 2 anniversary games (06, Generations and now this). And that's not even getting into all the other times it's appeared.

Then again, some previews have noted Classic Sonic in a way that implies he may be a separate "version" of Sonic from "another world". And while that might remove time travel from the plot (minus Silver still appearing) it would also go against what Generations established, and cause some very unnecessary confusion.

...I'm pretty much just rambling at this point, though.

[PaulyBFromDa303]

OK folkes. Strap yourselves in cause Pauly B is FINALLY gonna give his opinion on the whole . . . Classic vs Modern thing

So as we all know, time moves on a constant plane. There's no going backward and there's no changing the past, even if you have a high-tech time machine (cause we all know the rule about time-paradoxes). Let's take a look at some other things that have changed over time. A perfect example would be Mickey Mouse, which I made a joke about in some other topic here in the forums. I'm on here a lot lately, what is all that about? Anyway, Mickey Mouse has undergone SO MANY changes and redesigns, and SOME of which have interacted with their past selves as well, I mean for God's sakes the bastard is over 100 years old and if he were real would probably be begging and pleading for sweet death to come. It's a concept that can be interesting and provide its own twists and turns IF DONE CORRECTLY.

Which brings us to Sonic. As far as the story in Generations goes, Sonic gets stuck in some space-time continuum thanks to the Time Eater, which we know was released thanks to Dr. Robotnik SCREW YOU HE WILL ALWAYS BE ROBOTNIK TO ME and his former self which he discovered along the way. You put two high-IQ professors together and anything can happen. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs for example. But I'm starting to get off point. At which point Sonic runs into his former self, and it takes both of them to thwart the two evil geniuses and return time to it's normal planes.

It's a great storyline, IN THEORY! The major problem I found with it was how creepily silent and clowny Classic Sonic was. I know that Sonic didn't speak much in the classic games ("I'm outta here!" -Sonic CD), but we still had SatAM, Underground, AoSTH, ALL starring the talented legend Jaleel White. If they had brought HIM into the project and GAVE CLASSIC SONIC SOME DAMN DIALOGUE, then MAYBE it would've been much better. Instead we got the whole Finlay/Hornswoggle thing going (If you don't get WWE references, Fit Finlay was an Irish-proud strongman who LOVED to fight, whose character was kinda taken off the serious side thanks to his silent leprechaun sidekick, Hornswoggle, who story told, LIVED under the wrestling ring and would come out to help Finlay in the most comical ways possible. Problem was that the chemistry between the two styles did NOT work out, so they instead made Hornswoggle the boss's illegitimate long lost son. What happened there is still beyond me). It's a perfect example of how I view Modern and Classic Sonic together.

I'm not saying it's gonna totally bomb in Forces, or make me NOT want to play it (Cause I'm one of the FEW REMAINING die-hard Sonic fans left from the looks of it). But if they keep this concept throughout the game, I'm sure it won't go over very well with the Sonic audience. However it DOES have potential, and I for one look forward to seeing the final project.

For why do we play Sonic games? The same reason that Call Of Duty fans binge-play for weeks straight to get that 10th prestige level. Style consistancy. If they really bring back EVERYTHING from the 2D and 3D games, it shouldn't be much different from what we are used to. It's a series. And every series has its own attributes or gameplay styles. As far as I can see, nothing has really changed at all, even the less quality games like '06 (Did everyone else give up on the Silver battle too?) You still have the fast paced style and practically the same controls it has been, let's just enjoy the things that we have followed for so long for a reason

[Badnik Mechanic]

I just read the thing about the music.

 

Holy cow man is it actually possible for this game to disappoint anymore?

[Indigo Rush]

6 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

I just read the thing about the music.

 

Holy cow man is it actually possible for this game to disappoint anymore?

Depending on who you ask, having Ken Pontac and Warren Graff writing the translated script and dialogue would probably inconvenience a few fans.

[voltaic]

I don't personally mind the songs being entirely FM synth on paper, but I'm worried about getting another Sonic 4 situation in execution, where everything sounds the same. That's not how the Classic music worked, and it's part of why Sonic 4's music didn't work (imo). To be honest, I feel that using FM as a compliment, rather then for the whole song, like how Generations handled it, would be more appropriate for this sort of 3D title. Still, we've only heard one song so far.

It'd be good to know who the singer for the main theme is, too. Perhaps at E3?

[PaulyBFromDa303]

For the record, I'm sure they make terrible music so people like me can remix them into gold

Uh-oh, there's that wrestler ego kicking in . . . #ShotsFired #Bam

[axc]

So.... 

All the classic Sonic music is gonna sound like that?

May god have mercy on our souls...

[JosepHenry]

We just need Pontac and Graff back.

So the only thing to look forward will be the graphics and half of the soundtrack. (For me at least)

[D.K.]

The thing with Green Hill: Suburban Boogaloo's track isn't the song itself - The song is actually pretty good - It's the dying wasp Ohtani calls a Genesis synth. But assuming that he was serious about it being a WIP and he really does take feedback and improve the instrumentation, we could get some decent tracks. Not incredible or nearly as good as Modern Sonic and OC Maker's tracks (unless Ohtani decides we can't have nice things and gives him/her/them the same free-royalty Mario music he did for Lost World), but decent.

But fuck, the fact that we actually have to pray that this professional music composer will take feedback just goes to show you that Sonic Team needs to realize you can't just hire one person for three entire soundtracks in a row and not expect them to burn out.

[Dannymax440]

Why do people act like like the boost games introduced padding when this has been a thing since the series went 3D?

[Muscles Maximum]

Who's acting like that

[Jango]

*Off of the board for a day*

- Oh, lots of replies in the Forces' thread, maybe something good happe..

10 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

Hope you liked Classic Sonic's music, 'cause it's all gonna sound like that.

 

 

[Diogenes]

17 minutes ago, Dannymax440 said:

Why do people act like like the boost games introduced padding when this has been a thing since the series went 3D?

Of course they weren't the first games to do it, but it's still bad and deserves to be criticized.

[Badnik Mechanic]

18 minutes ago, Dannymax440 said:

Why do people act like like the boost games introduced padding when this has been a thing since the series went 3D?

Define... Padding.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

11 hours ago, Azoo said:

Dear Sega, how to make a Sonic game the majority of everyone would enjoy, in six reasonably easy steps:

1 ) Do not center a game's mechanics on something that will run dry quickly. Boost gameplay is fun, but it's probably the franchise's biggest problem for this very reason. Not only does it make for a game without much depth beyond mastering your reaction times, but also requires the developers to make too much level design / assets / content for stages that are 3-5 minutes long in length, in a game that with that alone would be roughly less than an hour long. Which brings us to..

2 ) Do not resort to alternate gameplay styles, but do use other characters. I'm sure the biggest reason Sega keeps coming to this decision is simply because they need a way to pad out the game, as well as showcase better the content that they slaved over (only for the boost style to speed past it in 3 seconds). But regardless, no one walks into these games wanting to play different styles, and if they do then they're probably confused as to what kind of game they want to play.

What you should do instead is give the player the option to play as other characters, because noone likes when you resort to giving us like three Sonics. For starters, take a page out of how Mania's doing it and give us the Triple Threat or something. And HEY, speaking of Mania..

3 ) Reevaluate the core of your franchise's gameplay. No, not "speed", that's not a good answer. You wanna be that good good like your old peers, Zelda and Mario? Then revisit the mechanics that made your games work at the primetime of your franchise's life and actually do something with them, ya fucking dingus! 

Make Sonic roll again, he's a gosh darn hedgehog for chrissakes! And center the gameplay around that good ol' mo. Keep it simple, stupids. Just make your base sauce on this pizza be where Sonic uses slopes to pick up speed, and then rolling exaggerates that, and because you're a ball half the time you're kinda bouncy. Easy as shit, and everyone on God's green earth with a taste for good games loves it (or at least would be okay with it), so stop being dumb!

And don't act like it's hard to do, because your first 3D game (Sonic Adventure) did it! And speaking of that..

4 ) Stop automating your dang games, you trash emporium of a video game company. Everyone forgave you for it in the first one or two 3D games because you (and everyone else) were learning the ropes on how to make games in a new dimension.

You've kept the crutch on for the past nearly 20 years now though, and it's only become apparent to ANYONE with eyes that it's a seriously awful idea to try to tout a franchise as an exhilarating example of speed and freedom whenever the player is not allowed ever to have control over their own movement in an area where it matters! Loops and big hills are obstacles / level geometry, not something to claim on your paycheck!

 5 ) Give the player a sense of adventure. This is gonna be a rather controversial statement, but I don't think Sonic needs very complex or extremely well-written stories, no. Because let's be frank, the Adventure games didn't keep us gripped because of any sort of compelling writing.

No, what Sonic excels at is the sense of adventure to his games, and if you take that out (like it has been quite a lot lately) then the fun is absent. Where's the excitement without feeling like you're progressing in a plot? The story should be where you're constantly traveling, discovering new things, encountering dangers that only escalate as the game goes on, and stakes that are raised at every turn. Make the tension between you and the Eggman Empire MEAN something.

If there are no characters, no progression, not even the lightest bit of lore, then why would fans be so inclined to keep caring and progress? I mean, if your game was too good to drop, then sure, but knowing your past I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket.

6 ) Just put a lot of content into it. You got a lot of time left to fill in the blanks of the game with whatever else? Then if you're not polishing the game, put in new modes and random shit, I don't care.

Missions, special stages, interacting with NPCs, multiplayer, chao gardens, collectables that give you unlockable art or music or videos or whatever, hell put in a kart racing mode or a mini golf mode or I don't care just do something that'll make me want to come back and play longer than the half hour it'll take to run through stages I wanna replay! 

----------

I'm not even joking in saying that if a game came out that covered at least FIVE out of six of these bases, the grand majority would be happy. But will Sonic Team do any of these? Lol, nah. 

See y'all at E3.

...WOW. Not only was I given an actual answer, but an absolutely fantastic one at that. I couldn't agree more with this if I tried and it looks like everybody else feels the same. (Even Diogenes likes it. I didn't think that was possible. D: )

Can we, like, pin this entire post up somewhere for the whole forum to see as a constant reminder of what 3D Sonic needs? Maybe send it to Sega/Sonic Team or the Sonic Twitter? SOMETHING?

I think the only thing I feel needs to be elaborated on a bit more is the overall control, but I kinda have an idea of what you mean by that thanks to Adventure being mentioned since to this day, it's the one 3D Sonic game with the most freedom for Sonic's movement. Kinda makes me think that combining SA1 Sonic's movement and control with Sonic Utopia's toolset, physics and freedom would be a good idea.

Thanks a lot for the answer, Azoo. Seeing how absolutely everyone here, including myself, agrees with this post, it's nice to see that there actually is an idea that could appease everybody or at least the majority.

So I guess the only question left is...how the hell do we get Sega/Sonic Team to make a game like that instead of...you know, THIS one? ¬^¬'

[Blacklightning]

34 minutes ago, Dannymax440 said:

Why do people act like like the boost games introduced padding when this has been a thing since the series went 3D?

It's 1am here so I might not articulate this right, but basically: Boost game may not have coined the means they use to pad their games out, but the way the boost itself plays out does practically necessitate it. Because Boost mechanics in its current state require you to design literal kilometers of track to be playable for more than 60 seconds at a time, the only affordable options are to either add a slower paced style to back it up as a midground, or to risk a game that can be completed in a day with shit all replay value.

Neither approach is particularly satisfying, but it seems to be that you could kill both problems with one stone just by making the Boost not so god damned overpowered, if not just stripping it out of the game entirely. Far be it from me to praise any other aspect of SA2 for aging well, but the sense of scale vs your sense of speed seemed pretty much perfectly balanced in my book, even if they commit to similar dumb mistakes to what we're seeing today.

[Wraith]

10 minutes ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

 

So I guess the only question left is...how the hell do we get Sega/Sonic Team to make a game like that instead of...you know, THIS one? ¬^¬'

Less infighting and more making it clear that THIS is what we want is key since we have a direct line to Iizuka through Webber.

Mania also got done partially by that and partially through proof of concept though, so it would be good to put together more stuff like Sonic Utopia that doesn't completely neglect modern elements.

[azoo]

Y'all are naive if you think Sonic Team will listen.

Good thing is, I'm naive too.

Let me promise all of you one thing: I'm going to stick to my word and drop my moderation position on SSMB if it ends up the character creation aspect of Forces is true.

BUT.

I will also work with SSMB and talk to Aaron Webber and whoever else necessary to try to pitch a (much less profane, lol) version of this in the form of a video, or what have you. THAT IS, only if fans from all across here can agree on that.

Consider it a community parting gift.

[Wraith]

If this is a real thing do we want to make a topic for it?

[Indigo Rush]

20 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Y'all are naive if you think Sonic Team will listen.

Good thing is, I'm naive too.

Let me promise all of you one thing: I'm going to stick to my word and drop my moderation position on SSMB if it ends up the character creation aspect of Forces is true.

BUT.

I will also work with SSMB and talk to Aaron Webber and whoever else necessary to try to pitch a (much less profane, lol) version of this in the form of a video, or what have you. THAT IS, only if fans from all across here can agree on that.

Consider it a community parting gift.

Please include me in this.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Hm, you folks do know there's probably 10 crazy fans sending these suggestions how to fix the series to Sega every week or so, right?
Heck, at least 3 of them even asked me to look over them for some reason.
And they're always from fans who are, uhh.... Well, let's say eccentric.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to do something like this, it has to be very profesional and tight.
And should probably be in the Japanese language, and very respectable.
The big guys on top tend to have a bit of an ego.

Because I wouldn't be surprised if getting "Hey Sonic Team, I'm Billy and let me tell you with all my experience of 0 seconds in game development how you'll make the bestest Sonic game evah." letters in the mail is a running joke with the staff at Sega at this point.
And practically every videogame magazine/ website worth their salt has one of these damn lists.
Always hilarious to read, especially if they're years old and they're suggesting things that Sonic Team has done since (And screwed up)  in recent games.
"If Sonic games are 2d again, That will save the franchise!" Well, consider the franchise saved, dear person from the past.

So yeah. Get Webber's involvement, make the list in japanese, get people with actual game development experience to check it.
Take this project so serious it'll make Shadow proud.