Detective SSMB & The Case of the Sonic 25th Anniversary "P.g. 100 is the best... food discussion started."

[shdowhunt60]

"And to a degree, Unleashed"? What does that mean? Unleashed had for more effort and polish put into than Colors and DEFINITELY Generations.

Besides, just because they're taking their time on a game, doesn't mean they can't show SOMETHING of it. The Witcher 3 was showcased in 2013, a full two years before it was released in 2015. And look at the praise and rewards that game is STILL getting.

[pppp]

2 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Because they can't talk about it? There's a difference between not being enthusiastic and making sure they have a product they can be enthusiastic about. The simple reason why it has been 2.5 years since the release of a main series Sonic game is because SEGA is trying to recover from the restructure and also make sure they have all their ducks in a row first. And, again, this is a good thing.

A SEGA that rushes products out is the same SEGA that produces Sonic '06, Rise of Lyric, and technically half of Sonic 3 (with the other half coming later in the year). A SEGA that does not rush products creates Sonic Colors, Generations, and to a degree Unleashed.

Besides, this has not been the first time SEGA has waited more than a year to release a game. This is no different.

SEGA's taking their time with their product now, which is what fans have wanted the company to do for years. Now that they do that, they "lack anticipation". The element of surprise isn't lost, it will just take a bit longer for it to come about.

They did give us something to discuss. The teasers.

First off, you're completely ignoring my arguments and putting words in my mouth. I never said that I wanted them to rush the game. I just want them to show us something. Are you honestly telling me that showing a teaser image would ruin the plan and force them to rush the game? That makes no sense. Why can't they take their time working on the game WHILE keeping us updated? Kojima did that when he was at Konami.

Also I don't count more numbers and a date for a July party teasers. I want something related to the title.

[SSF1991]

31 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

"And to a degree, Unleashed"? What does that mean? Unleashed had for more effort and polish put into than Colors and DEFINITELY Generations.

I said that mostly in acknowledgement of those that didn't like Unleashed due to the Werehog or whatever flaws they feel the game had. I like Unleashed, though.

23 minutes ago, pppp said:

First off, you're completely ignoring my arguments and putting words in my mouth. I never said that I wanted them to rush the game. I just want them to show us something.

By wanting them to put something out likely sooner than they can do so, you're basically telling them to rush. You don't have to outright say it, but that doesn't mean it can't come off that way.

Quote

Are you honestly telling me that showing a teaser image would ruin the plan and force them to rush the game? That makes no sense. Why can't they take their time working on the game WHILE keeping us updated? Kojima did that when he was at Konami.

Also I don't count more numbers and a date for a July party teasers. I want something related to the title.

Firstly, Konami isn't SEGA. The way they conducted video gaming business was much different to the way SEGA can. It's apples and oranges.

Secondly, When SEGA shows something, it's them telling us they, and the game, are ready to move on to the next phase. What they say and show publicly have a huge influence on their product, and is also a significant part of their plan. Part of what went wrong with Rise of Lyric is how different the game turned out from the way we saw it in the months leading to its release. In other words, PRing the game is just as important as the game itself. And, again, SEGA wants to make sure this is sorted out.

[Drunk Michael Myers]

So, what numbers was not used yesterday? Or was it all of them? I'm confused.

[shdowhunt60]

Once again, The Witcher 3 was literally showcased a whole 2 years before it was released. In fact, if I recall correctly, the damned thing was originally intended to be released in late 2014, and it ultimately got delayed to mid-2015. And look at how much of a massive success that game was.

This whole "WE GOTTA SHOW SOMETHING AT THE LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT" thing is absolutely absurd and has nothing to do with the possible release state of a game.

[Nepenthe]

A confirmation or a teaser isn't- in any way- a demand for Sonic Team to rush a game to its detriment. It's to actually give us something to be excited about within the midst of hype that's doing little other than beating around the bush.

[Enesephus]

4 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

By wanting them to put something out likely sooner than they can do so, you're basically telling them to rush. You don't have to outright say it, but that doesn't mean it can't come off that way.

I don't really know how differently things are done at SEGA vs other places, but if, say, Insomniac can release a trailer for Ratchet and Clank at E3 2015 and release the game about ten months later, and keep the hype going for all of that time, and not rush the game itself, how come SEGA can't do something similar?

[SSF1991]

4 minutes ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

I don't really know how differently things are done at SEGA vs other places, but if, say, Insomniac can release a trailer for Ratchet and Clank at E3 2015 and release the game about ten months later, and keep the hype going for all of that time, and not rush the game itself, how come SEGA can't do something similar?

Because Insomniac hasn't dealt with a restructure, a game that blew up in their faces, nor a very divided fanbase. Very few companies have been in this kind of situation, if any.

As I said, PRing the game with trailers, public demos, and more are just as important as the game itself and is a very important factor in their game development plan. The pressure goes up with every thing they reveal, teaser or not.

Besides, I'm sure if SEGA could reveal something, they would. But they just can't right now.

[Salamander]

It wouldn't be too hard to find examples of games which, while still successful, were teased for so long in advance that people became fatigued from information overload and disappointed when they played the games to find that they already knew too much.  Promotional schedules as they are differ among companies, types of game, and profile, and Sonic has its own unique features - notably, the cynicism with which the series is viewed.  When people accuse the whole franchise of having long worn out its welcome, you don't really want to do the same with individual games before they're out.  And besides, quite frankly, the present doldrums will be entirely forgotten the moment they start promoting the game for real, so it's a moot point.  Happens to every fandom.  Complain while nothing's going on, and then completely forget about it when things start happening.

Here's how I view the numbers: There's nothing particularly offensive about them as they exist quite simply to pass the time, and that's all there is to it.  The numbers aren't magically stealing real Sonic game previews away from us.  They're the replacement for literally nothing happening - nothing except more memes, that is.  The game's not ready to be shown, so here's something else to do with your time, take it or leave it.  And you can take it... or you can leave it.  Neither's any better or worse than the other.

[Enesephus]

5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Because Insomniac hasn't dealt with a restructure, a game that blew up in their faces, nor a very divided fanbase. Very few companies have been in this kind of situation, if any.

As I said, PRing the game with trailers, public demos, and more are just as important as the game itself and is a very important factor in their game development plan. The pressure goes up with every thing they reveal, teaser or not.

Besides, I'm sure if SEGA could reveal something, they would. But they just can't right now.

Still, when is the last time SEGA has revealed a game more than, like, six months before release, anyway? 

Whatever, I guess it doesn't matter, anyway. We'll get the reveal when we do. I'm just sick of the waiting and the cryptic numbers and crap.

[SSF1991]

6 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Here's how I view the numbers: There's nothing particularly offensive about them as they exist quite simply to pass the time, and that's all there is to it.  The numbers aren't magically stealing real Sonic game previews away from us.  They're the replacement for literally nothing happening - nothing except more memes, that is.  The game's not ready to be shown, so here's something else to do with your time, take it or leave it.  And you can take it... or you can leave it.  Neither's any better or worse than the other.

Exactly. As much as we've been getting numbers and stuff like that, it's much better than getting literally nothing at all from SEGA for months. They're trying to keep us entertained to help make the wait a little easier. Whether you like them or not, it's not hurting anything.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm curious about the next game too. But every day that passes where they focus on making the game better in quality is something I'm glad to see.

Quote

Still, when is the last time SEGA has revealed a game more than, like, six months before release, anyway? Why do they have to wait until just before E3 every time?

A lot of games have been revealed at E3 by a lot of companies. But to be honest, SEGA doesn't reveal games in May/June often anyway. But they have done it (Colors, Lost World, Unleashed I believe). As for E3 itself, It has been a long time since SEGA specifically waited for E3. They almost always reveal their games before E3, because then E3 is the perfect place for them to enter the spotlight and really get a chance to show of their game.

Anywhere between February and July is typically the window for releasing games. It's March right now. It's still very possible that we may hear something in April or May.

[shdowhunt60]

9 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Because Insomniac hasn't dealt with a restructure, a game that blew up in their faces, nor a very divided fanbase. Very few companies have been in this kind of situation, if any.

As I said, PRing the game with trailers, public demos, and more are just as important as the game itself and is a very important factor in their game development plan. The pressure goes up with every thing they reveal, teaser or not.

Besides, I'm sure if SEGA could reveal something, they would. But they just can't right now.

So, the solution is to have the fanbase running around in circles, frustrated and infighting, searching for clues while they wait till the last possible minute to do something as simple as state that a game exists. Brilliant.

[SSF1991]

3 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

So, the solution is to have the fanbase running around in circles, frustrated and infighting, searching for clues while they wait till the last possible minute to do something as simple as state that a game exists. Brilliant.

To be fair, the fanbase runs around in circles, gets frustrated, fights amongst each other, and searches for clues even when SEGA is promoting a game.

This is also the same fanbase that advised SEGA to take their time developing games in the first palce.

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, SSF1991 said:

To be fair, the fanbase runs around in circles, gets frustrated and fight amongst each other, and search for clues even when SEGA is promoting a game.

This is also the same fanbase that advised SEGA to take their time developing games in the first palce.

And holy shit, we're back to this again. Everyone just said that you can announce a game well in advance of a games release. A bunch of companies do it, and guess what? Nothing bad ever comes of this.

[Dejimon11]

12 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Because Insomniac hasn't dealt with a restructure, a game that blew up in their faces, nor a very divided fanbase. Very few companies have been in this kind of situation, if any.

As I said, PRing the game with trailers, public demos, and more are just as important as the game itself and is a very important factor in their game development plan. The pressure goes up with every thing they reveal, teaser or not.

Besides, I'm sure if SEGA could reveal something, they would. But they just can't right now.

Ok real talk can we stop using the fan base as an argument for the problem with the series? The fan base is divided as hell but in reality they aren't the reason why the games are bad.

[SSF1991]

7 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

can we stop using the fan base as an argument for the problem with the series? The fan base is divided as hell but in reality they aren't the reason why the games are bad.

It has nothing do with that, dude. I'm making a point that SEGA has a unique fanbase that they must appeal to, compared to other companies, so they must stray from the norm of the video gaming industry at times in an effort to accomplish this. It has nothing to do with why the games are bad, but it has more to do with how SEGA conducts their PR.

I think people underestimate how much of a special case SEGA really is.

7 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Everyone just said that you can announce a game well in advance of a games release. A bunch of companies do it, and guess what? Nothing bad ever comes of this.

We just talked about this and I've already addressed this point. Other companies have not had to deal with a restructure, especially following the massive failure of a game.

[Nepenthe]

I think the issue of teasing games to the detriment of the surprise factor upon release is the result of the amount of content being shown versus the length of time the game is known to exist in a particular form. Zelda U has been teased for over two years and we know barely anything about it, not even an actual subtitle; meanwhile Sonic Unleashed was teased for less than a year (it would've been an even shorter amount of time had it not been leaked) and we eventually came to see every major stage except for Eggmanland and some cut scenes before release. These are things that can be accounted for and adjusted, and subsequently we're aware that you wouldn't even need visuals to give the fan base a little bit more reassurance about it. A typed-up press release would be fine with me if there's honestly nothing that can be shown at this stage.

Subsequently, I would actually much rather not be privy to any type of teasing in this manner. Out of sight, out of mind for me. If nothing is said, if nothing is teased, if nothing is hinted at that could possibly point towards a new mainline game, then there is nothing with which to base any expectations on, and you can write it off as another year where a main Sonic game is still in heavy development, which is fine. But on the other hand, this is a quinquennial anniversary year, a year that has habitually seen a game release for the past 15 years, meaning there's a precedent of their own doing that they can't shake now. They've made efforts to make sure we know this is the anniversary too, hyping it up as this big celebration, getting all the Sonics in on the action, announcing a huge party in LA, throwing out number teasers within a contextual vacuum like an amateur Scott Cawthon, and yet at the end of the day there is nothing to hinge any of this excitement on for people interested in what this year ultimately means for the public.

Which brings me to my next point: We don't know how the game is going to turn out. We literally know nothing about it- the game's design, what characters are going to be involved, any technological advancements being made, who on Sonic Team is doing what, nothing, which means the game and its quality is a toss-up. It not being announced yet means diddly squat when they could still fuck it up anyway. It's not like the marketing interferes with the predetermined development schedule of the game. The devs aren't taking any time off that wasn't already scheduled in to market this game, so saying that their silence is a definite good sign isn't really true, meaning all of this celebration could be for naught. If it was being done in line with actual confirmation, you could temper your expectations about the whole year depending upon the look of the game in tandem with the rest of the events going on. But this is a bunch of partying for a big ol' question mark, which isn't reassuring. 

Really, the issue at the end of the day is that we've simply seen a bunch of hullaballoo over very little.

[SSF1991]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

Really, the issue at the end of the day is that we've simply seen a bunch of hullaballoo over very little.

I do recognize that we have gotten very little. But we'd have nothing at all if it weren't for the teasers and I think people would be, understandably, having a harder time with this wait.

It's just, a lot of what I'm saying is more so geared to the people that are literally getting annoyed by these teasers and are taking it out on Aaron, when the teasers really aren't that big of a deal. I'm just glad to see SEGA doing anything at all. It's a sign they're at least beginning to open up again.

[Nepenthe]

Again, I would rather have nothing at all. If there's nothing going on, then there's nothing to speculate on or worry about. Time passes quickly, we focus on other things, life goes on, and there's no hard feelings. It would be like any other year.

But when an anniversary year that has historically been centered around a new game is brought up yet again (which in itself is a tradition that's getting a bit tired) as being worth our attention due to nothing but Sega's own volition, and every other event sans a game is being teased and hinted at, to say nothing of the jokes and other anti-hype shit that's happened on social media and on here before, it's honestly no wonder that people are getting short right now. 

You don't want people to be antsy? Well, A.) Don't base your goddamn franchise release schedule around five-year anniversaries almost at the outset (because at that point every second or third game is going to be beset with huge expectations), and B.) Don't outright refuse to confirm anything within said anniversary year and act like you don't know what people are actually waiting on. You know how much better I'd feel if anyone had said "A big game is coming this year; don't worry"? I'm not asking for a playable demo right now. I'm asking for some baseline confirmation.

Again, all that seems to be happening is a huge party has kicked off into motion without the guest of honor, and people asking for the guest of honor's mere whereabouts are being told to pipe down about it and just enjoy the party, and I'm like, "But the guest of honor is who the goddamn party is about. We should probably wait a little bit before getting wasted."

Edited March 20, 2016 by Nepenthe

[AphexPhreak]

In my opinion, the way they're doing this all is very risky.

They're planting hints at both a Classic game and Sonic Adventure 3 (or a similarly styled game).  Unless they're making two games like that TSSZ article implies and one is Classic and the other Modern/Adventure styled, they're setting people up for massive disappointment, regardless of whether the title itself is good or not.  By planting these hints, they're going to get at least ONE of the two groups of fans hyped up for no reason and will alienate them.  And again, that would be the best case where the game is good.

While I enjoy the hints and teases, they're playing with fire here.  

Also, being too cryptic for too long is a great way to annoy fans and make them lose interest.  

I do have some hope that something will come of that April 2nd Adventure Music Experience thing.  Especially since it looks like they'll have actual MODERN MERCHANDISE.  Also it would line up with the April 1st thing, given the time zone and the whole "4/1/16 The Trial Begins" thing at the end of the BBFA3 teaser.  It would be pretty cool for an ARG type thing to happen.

[Tails spin]

2 minutes ago, AphexPhreak said:

In my opinion, the way they're doing this all is very risky.

They're planting hints at both a Classic game and Sonic Adventure 3 (or a similarly styled game).  Unless they're making two games like that TSSZ article implies and one is Classic and the other Modern/Adventure styled, they're setting people up for massive disappointment, regardless of whether the title itself is good or not.  By planting these hints, they're going to get at least ONE of the two groups of fans hyped up for no reason and will alienate them.  And again, that would be the best case where the game is good.

While I enjoy the hints and teases, they're playing with fire here.  

Also, being too cryptic for too long is a great way to annoy fans and make them lose interest.  

I do have some hope that something will come of that April 2nd Adventure Music Experience thing.  Especially since it looks like they'll have actual MODERN MERCHANDISE.  Also it would line up with the April 1st thing, given the time zone and the whole "4/1/16 The Trial Begins" thing at the end of the BBFA3 teaser.  It would be pretty cool for an ARG type thing to happen.

I'm already annoyed with the numbers teasing. And all for them to just announce a convention date.

Heck I would have been excited if the announcement was just saying that Naka-san was returning to the series 

[Enesephus]

3 minutes ago, Tails spin said:

I'm already annoyed with the numbers teasing. And all for them to just announce a convention date.

Heck I would have been excited if the announcement was just saying that Naka-san was returning to the series 

Just SOMETHING actually related to the games would've been nice.

[Nepenthe]

Granted, I have to say that I have actually been pleased with a few things thus far, and the running theme with what I've been cool with is that there was no attempt to stir up hype or imagination beyond what was warranted for the thing in question. That's part of why I enjoyed the panels that Aaron and co. hosted yesterday, and subsequently why the announcement of the upcoming convention wasn't a letdown to me. I had an idea of what to expect. Carrots weren't dangled in front of only for me to be given the stems. Sega and people in the know were upfront about what was going to happen, it played out accordingly, and as a result there were comparable surprises from some of the off-the-cuff humorous moments and bits of knowledge we didn't know before, such as Iizuka animating Sonic 3's opening. It was enjoyable, amusing, and was one of the few times in recent memory I can remember enjoying being a Sonic fan and chilling with people on SSMB. 

Now imagine instead had this panel been instead totally shrouded in secrecy with the exception of cryptic hints like cut-off photos of the people that would be in attendance, and the same exact panel had occurred- a history tour of Sonic that most of us already knew about. Even with the announcement of the convention, the panel that I and others enjoyed yesterday probably would've gotten more backlash than expected had it been advertised and teased in the way everything else has been so far. Generally, secrecy should be reserved for things and events that actually warrant a huge investment in time and energy. Convention announcements, hirings (or firings), pranks; these are not things that warrant Cloverfield-esque diversion.

[Chris Knopps]

Isn't it a bit too long a time since the restructure to use it as a valid reason for anything now...?

Anyway, this doesn't seem good to me. Sonic is not Mario, he is not Zelda, he is not any other franchise out there. Fan games, and even indies now are impressing in ways Sonic is supposed to yet fails at. Look at Freedom Planet and such.

Sonic now is a franchise beneath indies, this strategy is not one that will work for Sonic in the same way it would any other game... Heck, even fan games as I said which generate the same, if not greater hype than official games.

Plus you've got Freedom Planet 2 on the horizon...

This isn't a good method for Sonic because there's no hype to build for Sonic, only frustration and anger leading to unrelenting disappointment because some group's going to be let down and there you go as others have mentioned.

[Hero of Legend]

I agree with Nep and others. I'm honestly sick of these riddles. I think Aaron meme-ing up social media and all of this is doing WAY more harm than good.

I also don't like this notion of "shame on people being disappointed". People can feel how they want to feel and they absolutely can feel free to criticize as long as it's done constructively and maturely. Which as far as I can see has been done very well so far. I think it's extremely fair for people to be very annoyed at how Sega has been going on about this.

I also think Sega have demonstrated very poor back-up planning skills. Why did 2015 have to go without a single game for a traditional system? One example; Sonic Generations for Wii U ported by Tantalus. A team who's already demonstrated outstanding PS360-to-Wii U porting skills with Mass Effect 3 and ESPECIALLY Deus Ex: Human Revolution: Director's Cut. Know how we know they've done such outstanding work? because Nintendo chose them to do Twilight Princess HD. Yep.

Point is, there was no excuse for skipping a year, even if Fire & Ice was obviously planned to be pushed out last year until this change of heart.

Another easy idea would've been to finally put Dimps on a 3DS-exclusive original Sonic game to finally truly succeed the Rush and Advance series before it. They've barely done a thing since Lost World 3DS was done (and their Sonic handheld team is separate from the Street Fighter team I believe), That never happened.

I feel Sega is the only one to blame for digging this hole they've found themselves in. And their actions right now are not what they should be doing to repair their image.

Hopefully I've explained my thoughts clearly.