The "What the HECK Is A 2016 Sonic" Prophecy Thread (two topics from the pre-server wipe in one!)

[Nepenthe]

The context of nostalgia is dependent upon the conversation surrounding it. In this topic you've been posting updates relating to Classic Sonic, and people have been bemoaning that and talking about recently classical styled games like Gens. So it seems pretty clear to me we're talking about games made between 1991 and 1996, and the games after which deliberately try to ape the perceived artistic principles of this time period.

So is your issue simply that I relied too much on that context to frame my argument and didn't outright say "Fuck Classic aesthetics" or even more specifically "Fuck when Classic aesthetics are used in a meaningless way"... even though my very first post on this tangent says this anyway, and that in order to rely on brevity I decided to use "nostalgia" as a stand in or metonymy for "Classic aesthetics and their continued misappropriation"?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Badnik Mechanic]

Yeah so we're currently booing classic Sonic.

Well... what about SA-heroes. Does that fall under it too?

[Nepenthe]

Aside from the fact that those games get shat on anyway as kind of a daily ritual, in this conversation the Adventure games hardly apply because there's no hint or rumor that says Sega is going to ever entertain that direction again for any gameplay or marketing purposes, so aside from you wanting me to be unnecessarily specific when I use the word "nostalgia" in a conversation that was already obviously dominated by Classic Sonic discussion and context, I'm not sure why I would have ever mention those games in the current tangent? Heroes is kind of a relevant example for the thing we're talking about when we criticize Gens, but at the same time is also largely irrelevant as a whole because Sega isn't talking about a Heroes-inspired marketing campaign.

It's further ironic that we're even having this conversation, because I specifically said in a post that if there was ever a seriously trending rumor about Sonic Adventure 3, I would seriously expect people who hate the idea to bitch about that too as is being done here.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Mauro Fonseca]

So has anyone considered people might prefer Classic aesthetics not out of nostalgia but out of genuinely finding them superior, or are we still dealing in "blah blah checkerboards blah blah no originality nostalgia-baiting"

[Nepenthe]

My argument is not that there's no reason to like them. My argument is that Sega hasn't made a game that actually lives up to or anchors themselves on those games in a meaningful manner, and instead the way they use them is as a meta marketing device and not an artistically meaningful stylistic choice. It's cheap pandering, essentially, which gives us crap like Sonic 4 versus the sequel the games actually deserved. This was also practically my first post in the thread but the point seems to have been lost in the whole derail.

[Jango]

It's really subjective, KKM. A lot of people don't think the classic era has the best games. Sometimes it's because they didn't were born during the Sonic boom in the 90's, and their first game was Adventure, 2 Battle or Heroes. It doesn't depends on checkered grass or animal badniks. Lots of fans' nostalgia is running from a killer whale. Heck, some younger fans' nostalgia could be Windmil Isle. The only one who thinks nostalgia is solely green hills, checkered floor and animal badniks, is SEGA. Sure, the classic era had much more critic approval than any other era, but I don't think it should be called "the superior", just because of that. In my opinion, if SEGA/Sonic Team wants to pay respect to that part of Sonic's story, they should gather a smaller team to work on a real oldschool game. But not like Gens or Sonic 4, a true 1:1 Genesis game, keeping the fundamental elements such as graphics, music and gameplay (the rolling, bouncing, momentum physics), but with TOTALY new story, levels and enemies. It's very clear that these kinds of approach are appreciated, see Shovel Knight. It's a 8-bit game, in 2015. But it's not just that, it has it's own identity, charm, art and story. It uses elements from older games right. What SEGA tried so far with Sonic was blindly trust on visuals. That is wrong. Now, on the other hand, the other part of the team should focus on making a game that has, at the very least, the most polish ever. Write down a story that isn't insulting to the players' inteligence, nor too dark, deep, or that have any kind of time travel... Go Adventure level. Don't add any weird gameplay gimmick... Try to make at least 2 playable characters, or a multiplayer mode. Robot Sonic doesn't count... And trust yourself again and add new aesthetics. It's "fine" to have at least one tropical or green level, but don't push it... Sonic is more than that. And that's what I wanted to say.

[Tani Coyote]

Re: Sonic 4.

 

Even if it doesn't reflect the developer standpoint, I can still see why someone would view it as a spit in the face when the community (this is the important word here) team decides to so blatantly do something like that.

 

Now sure, it's no secret that community team members, having their finger on the pulse of the fanbase, can make lighthearted jabs (e.g. Aaron Webber joking about people shipping their characters with Sonic at Sonic Boom 2013), but that sort of promotion... seems a bit mean.

 

It's a minor detail overall, but I could see far more merit in a red x versus a big "Rejected!" stamp. Red X means it's not the right answer. Rejected means "not good enough."

 

I will admit though. It is hilarious in hindsight with how awful the game turned out.

[Mauro Fonseca]

It's really subjective, KKM. A lot of people don't think the classic era has the best games. Sometimes it's because they didn't were born during the Sonic boom in the 90's, and their first game was Adventure, 2 Battle or Heroes. It doesn't depends on checkered grass or animal badniks. Lots of fans' nostalgia is running from a killer whale. Heck, some younger fans' nostalgia could be Windmil Isle. The only one who thinks nostalgia is solely green hills, checkered floor and animal badniks, is SEGA. Sure, the classic era had much more critic approval than any other era, but I don't think it should be called "the superior", just because of that. In my opinion, if SEGA/Sonic Team wants to pay respect to that part of Sonic's story, they should gather a smaller team to work on a real oldschool game. But not like Gens or Sonic 4, a true 1:1 Genesis game, keeping the fundamental elements such as graphics, music and gameplay (the rolling, bouncing, momentum physics), but with TOTALY new story, levels and enemies. It's very clear that these kinds of approach are appreciated, see Shovel Knight. It's a 8-bit game, in 2015. But it's not just that, it has it's own identity, charm, art and story. It uses elements from older games right. What SEGA tried so far with Sonic was blindly trust on visuals. That is wrong. Now, on the other hand, the other part of the team should focus on making a game that has, at the very least, the most polish ever. Write down a story that isn't insulting to the players' inteligence, nor too dark, deep, or that have any kind of time travel... Go Adventure level. Don't add any weird gameplay gimmick... Try to make at least 2 playable characters, or a multiplayer mode. Robot Sonic doesn't count... And trust yourself again and add new aesthetics. It's "fine" to have at least one tropical or green level, but don't push it... Sonic is more than that. And that's what I wanted to say.

You didn't get what I meant.

Reading over the pages leading to this one, I kept seeing the notion of "oh no, they're bringing back Classic Sonic, to appeal to nostalgia, oh no, checkerboard levels, nostalgia, etc".

I'm saying I want classic Sonic and zany levels not out of nostalgia but because I genuinely think it's a better aesthetic and prefer it to what we were having for years instead. You know, basically "Sonic 1 & CD > Runners > Lost World > Generations, Unleashed, etc > Adventure > Adventure 2, 360, etc".

Not saying you have to agree, I'm saying "please consider it's not all about nostalgia".

Edited August 1, 2015 by The KKM

[MykonosFan]

My personal line of thinking, and hope, is that all the "green hill" usage in games in the last 5 years hasn't been primarily to appeal to nostalgia (though that's definitely part of it, Sonic Generations), but rather to help pin down a visual identity for the series. We've seen checkered hills and Badniks a lot lately, and whether it's Splash Hill, Seaside Hill, Windy Hill, Whatever Hill, it's at least consistent, if arguably boring in how little things are actually varied. 

 

We see similar objects concurrent in the Mario series, those get a pass because those are part of the series identity for Mario. My fingers are crossed that we're just in the early years of seeing Sonic Team lay the groundwork to establish the same thing with Sonic. Right now we might be sick of it, but if/when the rest of the series quality rises up to par, years from now we might look back and appreciate what they're doing.

 

...unless they just decide to throw all of that out the window because it is Sonic Team and you can barely ever predict what they're going to do next. 

Edited August 1, 2015 by MykonosFan

[Bowbowis]

You didn't get what I meant.

Reading over the pages leading to this one, I kept seeing the notion of "oh no, they're bringing back Classic Sonic, to appeal to nostalgia, oh no, checkerboard levels, nostalgia, etc".

I'm saying I want classic Sonic and zany levels not out of nostalgia but because I genuinely think it's a better aesthetic and prefer it to what we were having for years instead. You know, basically "Sonic 1 & CD > Runners > Lost World > Generations, Unleashed, etc > Adventure > Adventure 2, 360, etc".

Not saying you have to agree, I'm saying "please consider it's not all about nostalgia".

Nobody is saying that you only like those aesthetics out of nostalgia but do you really think that SEGA is using them for any other reason? Whether you truly prefer the aesthetic or not is irrelevant to the fact that SEGA's primary motivation for using them is nostalgia. That's problematic to say the least because it stymies creativity on Sonic Team's part. When nostalgia is the primary goal of the game things start to go down hill, suddenly rather than being a platform from which new ideas can be built the Classics becomes the Bible prohibiting them. Rather than try something different like City Escape, or putting a new spin on old tropes like Angel Island Act 2, the opening level must be Green Hill knock off #973, for fear that doing anything else would be seen as tantamount to wiping your ass with a copy of Sonic 1. 

Really though it's not even the Classics being taken as the Bible so much as it is Green Hill Zone, and  literally nothing else. After  all it's not as if the Classic games were nothing but bright colors and geometric terrain, if we're really being honest with ourselves the Classic games (sans CD) really weren't all that stylized to begin with; outside of Green/Emerald Hill things were usually pretty grounded. As much as people like to bitch about Adventure 1/2, Shadow, and '06 being "too realistic for Sonic games" I really have to ask, what makes them so different from the classics? What makes these so different from each other:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2015 by Bowbowis

[Diogenes]

 

Oh come on. I'll give you Final Rush and Death Egg (not too surprising that they're similar since S3&K is the most realistic-looking of the Genesis games and the ARK is basically Death Egg 2), but cherrypicking the dullest looking part of Sonic 1 to compare to ShtH's burnt-out husk of a city is not a fair argument. Even ignoring that most of Star Light is spent equating the lit-up windows of skyscrapers to the stars, its near-background still doesn't have the gross rotten meat funk that practically every part of ShtH is drenched in.

[Mauro Fonseca]

The difference is called brighter colours and geometrization. Even Sandopolis shows this when compared to the level of 06 I'm forgetting.

 

Not to mention, you're purposefully ignoring CD and focusing on 2 and 3, when what SEGA seems to be doingg is the exact opposite- bringing back 1 and CD's aesthetics. That's good to me. What do I care if 2 and 3 weren't as stylized if most other Classic games were?

[Jango]

Well, I see now KKM. But yeah, that's still subjective... It's impossible to please everyone. That's why I think SEGA should consider spliting Sonic Team into another small team to try and focus on a pure classic title, to please fans like you and me, instead of shoving these games' elements into every Sonic game they make... For what I've seem, most people are tired of this. I'm dead serious, if they get team B (Colors, LW), hire Taxman and Stealth (since they have prooven to be more than capable of understanding how the classic games work) and focus on making a true 1:1 retro game; WHILE team A focus their efforts in a game as ambitious as Unleashed (but without any weird ideas); most of the problems would be solved. "Oh, you want classic Sonic, there, have THIS game". "Oh, you're tired of 2D, dazzy/colorful and simpler games? Here, have THAT game". That, if both games manage to be good or great.

[Nepenthe]

Eh, nailing down the art style is the least of past attempt's issues to me. Sonic games more often than not look good, and Gens was pretty good in updating the classic levels to their logical conclusion in terms of relying on both geometric patterns and high detail, while Lost World was what Heroes should have been. If anything, my problem from an artistic perspective is that the design refuses to reflect different moods through color or space outside of perhaps the final level. The games are consistently presented as happy-go-lucky romps even when shit is going down in the storyline, despite the fact that the classic games' art tends to vary in terms of tone to not only reflect the level you're in but also the general trajectory towards facing Eggman and seeing the destruction he's wrought. This is what I mean by there being an understanding the source material only on a surface level. Even with Sonic Team being able to visually parse what makes a Sonic game look classic, I don't think they're going to apply it in any interesting ways outside of the general cheery tones akin to your typical Mario platformer, meaning the whole thing comes across as cheaper and more hollow despite the artwork being more technologically robust. It's just...not appealing. =/

[shdowhunt60]

That's kinda... It. I mean, aside from Shadow and 06, do we ever get games that actually look BAD in the main series? I mean, I personally rather detest the way Lost World looks, but I recognize that's just my own reactionary response to it (I mean, seriously, this is the game that came after Unleashed and Colors?). I think if it's one thing that Sonic Team that can be credited for, they can make some really beautiful games when they put their best foot forward.

[NoirSuede]

 

It was titled Sonic 4. A follow up to one of their biggest games, if not the biggest. Should I not blame them for that? They're the ones who chose to outsource it. They're the ones who allowed it to be designed the way it was.

I had a feeling you'd bring this up. To me? A freemium mobile game. I don't care that Sonic Team themselves developed it. It's still a mobile game. Hell, Jump had lots of characters too, Dash as well. Freemium mobile games aren't exactly what I call "hopeful."

Because Runners was made by Sonic Team and not someone else like Dash/Jump, now we know that Sonic Team's confident enough to let us play as multiple characters after all these years of playing just as Sonic.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

That's kinda... It. I mean, aside from Shadow and 06, do we ever get games that actually look BAD in the main series? I mean, I personally rather detest the way Lost World looks, but I recognize that's just my own reactionary response to it (I mean, seriously, this is the game that came after Unleashed and Colors?). I think if it's one thing that Sonic Team that can be credited for, they can make some really beautiful games when they put their best foot forward.

Really the only truly horrid looking games in the series, main or otherwise for me, are indeed Shadow and 06. Because they have bad art design along with generally unimpressive technical stuff, whereas something like RoL I can still say looks decent at times because I tend to look past stuff like texture quality or resolution or whatever, and I can see that they've tried their damndest in every other respect, and the animation is fantastic. This isn't the only game I feel this way about (Xenoblade's painted-on eyes always bugged me), but there is one exception, Sonic-wise. Chronicles. Fucking Chronicles. This game has decent art design. I like the environments, they have a lot of attention to detail and effort. But the backgrounds themselves look like they don't even know what a Jay-peg is. The models are fuck-ugly and animate like...well, me in my first 3D class. Every character moves like they've got a stick and a half up their ass, especially Eggman. The 3D textures would look better if they were flat colors and didn't try to have any detail. It's not like this is a limitation of the DS hardware, since the 3 Rush games, Olympic games games, and ASR looked fine. Some of them had 3D environments the whole time.

[GOAT]

First off, is there anything besides the Sonic 25th anniversary logo that has been put out?

I was doing a bit of research and either Sega is really good at hiding their next Sonic project, or they just have nothing substantial in the works yet. (Or I suck at googling :P) Either way, as an old school fan from the Genesis/Dreamcast days I'm really hoping they go away from everything that is and was the Sonic Boom formula.

Things I'd like to see:

-A competent story with a darker premise. No more of this little kid story crap. I want to see more serious tone, like the earth/mobius is in trouble kind of stuff. 

-Ability to play as Sonic, Shadow, and Silver. This way you could play a variety of characters, without going away from the Sonic/fast pace style of play. (Loved this idea in 06, but obviously it wasn't executed well with the shitshow that 06 was. They could do a good job now imo.)

-Make it harder to gain power to boost. Boosting is awesome and they should keep it, but it takes away from the game at some points, and you sometimes end up going too fast. (Make the bar fill up less with ring grabbing and enemy kills or something like that.)

-Use the engine that was in Generations. It wasn't perfect, but it was decent. As someone who hadn't finished a Sonic game since Heroes, it was a treat to play Generations via the Havok engine. (06 and a couple of games I had attempted to play were just...not good.)

-Bring back Tomoya Ohtani. He's a god in the Sonic music Universe as far as I'm concerned. I know Richard Jacques is good, but tbh Sonic Booms soundtrack just sounded very unoriginal and repetitive. It was blah to me. Ohtani is, well he's just a legend at this point. His resume speaks for itself.

-Please NO GIMMICKS. No need to add any BS like whisps, wearhogs, character abilities (Boom) etc. I just want good ol' fashioned running, jumping, dodging. etc. That's how Sonic games should be.

-Keep levels linear, but make it more open for Sonic to run. Sonic Adventure did this fairly well at points despite how crappy it was. Levels that come to mind are SkyDeck, Lost World, and Final Egg. 

-Last but not least, do away with the character changes. Just stahp. Sonic has blue arms and a scarf? Knuckles took steroids? My god that was embarrassing. Go back to the og look please.

 

There are probably a lot more things, but that's all I can come up with for now. It's unfair that we as Sonic fans have to sit through this trash year in and year out. As a loyal fan since I first played Sonic 1 for the genesis back in the early 90s, I can truly say that it hurts to see where the Sonic franchise has gone. Especially when I see Zelda and Mario games topping the charts anytime one of those games is released. Please Sonic Team, return to greatness.

[NoirSuede]

First off, is there anything besides the Sonic 25th anniversary logo that has been put out?

I was doing a bit of research and either Sega is really good at hiding their next Sonic project, or they just have nothing substantial in the works yet. (Or I suck at googling :P) Either way, as an old school fan from the Genesis/Dreamcast days I'm really hoping they go away from everything that is and was the Sonic Boom formula.

Things I'd like to see:

-A competent story with a darker premise. No more of this little kid story crap. I want to see more serious tone, like the earth/mobius is in trouble kind of stuff. 

-Ability to play as Sonic, Shadow, and Silver. This way you could play a variety of characters, without going away from the Sonic/fast pace style of play. (Loved this idea in 06, but obviously it wasn't executed well with the shitshow that 06 was. They could do a good job now imo.) Why not Tails and Knuckles ?

-Make it harder to gain power to boost. Boosting is awesome and they should keep it, but it takes away from the game at some points, and you sometimes end up going too fast. (Make the bar fill up less with ring grabbing and enemy kills or something like that.) Ideally they shouldn't use boost anymore as that thing reeks of instant gratification, but if they wanna keep it then they just need to make it have infinite acceleration (like in the Fixing Generations Forever mod)

-Use the engine that was in Generations. It wasn't perfect, but it was decent. As someone who hadn't finished a Sonic game since Heroes, it was a treat to play Generations via the Havok engine. (06 and a couple of games I had attempted to play were just...not good.) That engine (the Hedgehog Engine by the way) is 7 years old now, they need to update it.

-Bring back Tomoya Ohtani. He's a god in the Sonic music Universe as far as I'm concerned. I know Richard Jacques is good, but tbh Sonic Booms soundtrack just sounded very unoriginal and repetitive. It was blah to me. Ohtani is, well he's just a legend at this point. His resume speaks for itself.

-Please NO GIMMICKS. No need to add any BS like whisps, wearhogs, character abilities (Boom) etc. I just want good ol' fashioned running, jumping, dodging. etc. That's how Sonic games should be. How many times do i have to tell everyone that wisps are just power-ups and not game-stealing gimmicks like the Werehog ?

-Keep levels linear, but make it more open for Sonic to run. Sonic Adventure did this fairly well at points despite how crappy it was. Levels that come to mind are SkyDeck, Lost World, and Final Egg. 

-Last but not least, do away with the character changes. Just stahp. Sonic has blue arms and a scarf? Knuckles took steroids? My god that was embarrassing. Go back to the og look please.

 

There are probably a lot more things, but that's all I can come up with for now. It's unfair that we as Sonic fans have to sit through this trash year in and year out. As a loyal fan since I first played Sonic 1 for the genesis back in the early 90s, I can truly say that it hurts to see where the Sonic franchise has gone. Especially when I see Zelda and Mario games topping the charts anytime one of those games is released. Please Sonic Team, return to greatness.

2 cents in red.

[AshGreninJovan]

2 cents in red.

One of my red sentences...

"... they just need to make it have infinite acceleration (like in the Fixing Generations Forever mod).

And it reminds me of infinite spin dash in Sonic Lost World.

[DarkRula]

(the Hedgehog Engine by the way)

Hedgehog Engine is just a lighting engine.
The game itself does run on havok.

Edited August 4, 2015 by DarkRula

[pppp]

-Bring back Tomoya Ohtani.

Bring him back? But he never left, in fact he's been the main music guy from Unleashed till Runners, except for Generations, Black Knight and Sonic 4 which had Jun in charge.

Not to mention his Lost World OST was nowhere near as good as Unleashed and Colors. Heck, if I'm totally honest I prefer his 06 OST over Lost World(Don't get me wrong the music in LW is good, I just think it's Ohtani's weakest effort).

Edited August 4, 2015 by pppp

[NoirSuede]

Hedgehog Engine is just a lighting engine.
The game itself does run on havok.

Havok is just a physics engine so you can say that they work in tandem.

[DarkRula]

Havok is just a physics engine so you can say that they work in tandem.

They do indeed. I think there's one more engine it runs on though.
Not sure.

[AshGreninJovan]

They do indeed. I think there's one more engine it runs on though.Not sure.

You mean an engine that was used for Sonic Colors?

It's called PhysX by Nvidia.

Edited August 4, 2015 by GreninJovan