Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Oh that Mario comic? Super Mario Adventures? Yeah. I can think of a bunch of problems with that statement.

1. It wasn't a fully published comic, it was one of the comics featured in Nintendo Power.

2. Super Mario Adventures is considered one of the best Mario stories, and one of the best Mario things outside the games.

3. Mario did still have a comic after that. He was featured in a bunch of separate comics, such as the Mario Vs Wario comics.

4. Super Mario Adventures was responsible for some of the game personalities due to how popular it was, for example, Luigi's cowardly personality originates from Super Mario Adventures.

5. Super Mario Adventures was designed to be a 12 Issue arc. Nothing more. There's a difference from being a fully fledged comic, and being a 12 issue miniseries.

Conclusion:

Penders is full of shit.

[horridus]

It's odd that in mentioning all those creators he specifically did not mention Ben Hurst despite mentioning Pat Allee.

 

Hurst committed the cardinal sin of calling Penders out for... well, being Penders, and thus had to be excomunicated from the holy Canon of the Penders. 

[baba_944]

I wonder of Ben was alive today, would he still call out Fenders?

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Oh that Mario comic? Super Mario Adventures? Yeah. I can think of a bunch of problems with that statement.

1. It wasn't a fully published comic, it was one of the comics featured in Nintendo Power.

2. Super Mario Adventures is considered one of the best Mario stories, and one of the best Mario things outside the games.

3. Mario did still have a comic after that. He was featured in a bunch of separate comics, such as the Mario Vs Wario comics.

4. Super Mario Adventures was responsible for some of the game personalities due to how popular it was, for example, Luigi's cowardly personality originates from Super Mario Adventures.

5. Super Mario Adventures was designed to be a 12 Issue arc. Nothing more. There's a difference from being a fully fledged comic, and being a 12 issue miniseries.

Conclusion:

Penders is full of shit.

Pretty sure he's referring to the Nintendo Comics a System from Valiant that he had a very, very small hand in.

[biznizz]

Of course he would. He'd probably feel it a slap to the face that Pen was commissioned to make the SatAM boxart after what he did to drive the final nail into that continuity.

It takes a real douchebag to wait until someone dies to call them a liar with bad business sense, but Pen provides.

[horridus]

Of course he would. He'd probably feel it a slap to the face that Pen was commissioned to make the SatAM boxart after what he did to drive the final nail into that continuity.

It takes a real douchebag to wait until someone dies to call them a liar with bad business sense, but Pen provides.

 

I still find it hilarious that he levels that accusation and acts like he's some kind of business expert, when he does stuff that wouldn't make sense from a business perspective even to someone who isn't trained on the subject, IE trying to sell spin-off material without a product, getting into rows with people on twitter, refusing to control the quality of what he releases, etc. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I still find it hilarious that he levels that accusation and acts like he's some kind of business expert, when he does stuff that wouldn't make sense from a business perspective even to someone who isn't trained on the subject, IE trying to sell spin-off material without a product, getting into rows with people on twitter, refusing to control the quality of what he releases, etc.

And knowing for a fact that CGI models aren't up to snuff but just using them anyway and expecting to get a award for trying

[SenEDDtor Missile]

"It's Just Ken Penders!" - Sing to this:

 

[Komodin]

Of course he would. He'd probably feel it a slap to the face that Pen was commissioned to make the SatAM boxart after what he did to drive the final nail into that continuity.

It takes a real douchebag to wait until someone dies to call them a liar with bad business sense, but Pen provides.

 

My word, did he really badmouth Ben Hurst like that? I mean, gosh, I'd figure that even someone like him would have better manners than to do that after the target has passed on.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

My word, did he really badmouth Ben Hurst like that? I mean, gosh, I'd figure that even someone like him would have better manners than to do that after the target has passed on.

 

Yes. Yes he did. He backstabbed Hursh, destroyed his plans for Season 3 of SatAM to be turned into a movie and then insulted him by claimed he had bad business sense.

[Zaysho]

My word, did he really badmouth Ben Hurst like that? I mean, gosh, I'd figure that even someone like him would have better manners than to do that after the target has passed on.

You'd think that, wouldn't you?

No, a few years after Hurst had passed, I believe what happened with Hurst's Sonic movie pitch (detailed here, ctrl+f for what Hurst had to say about dealing with Penders) was brought up on Penders's forum and Penders commented on it, acknowledging he's dead, but still talking shit about how Hurst had no business sense or understood how the industry (an industry Penders himself has little knowledge of) worked. It may still be on his forum somewhere. I'll go dig it up.

 

EDIT: Here. And this is just two posts below where he acknowledges that Hurst is dead and he can't really say anything without coming off as self-serving.

 

And it was also around the time I received a call from Ben Hurst, who expressed interest in writing a story for the SONIC SUPER SPECIAL series. Ben wanted to do something to wrap up the storylines of the SatAM series, so I put him in touch with then-SONIC editor Justin Gabrie, who was VERY receptive to the idea. Though Justin and I worked to make this happen, it was a moot point with the cancellation of the SONIC SUPER SPECIAL series. As for what happened after that, Ben is dead and unable to respond, so it does me no good to say anything more without sounding like a jerk. Needless to say, I've always been at a loss why Ben stated what he did, but he did, and so he gets the last say.

And then...

 

Hoo boy. I KNOW what a fire storm I'm about to ignite here, but I know this will eventually come out one way or another.

While Ben was important to DiC, to the Sonic animated series he worked on, to his family, friends and colleagues, and certainly to Sonic fans in general, he was not important to Sega the company.

Ben COULD have been one of the most important players up there with Yuji Naka had he the business acumen to match his creativity and industry connections. However, and this is what doomed the effort he blames me for, he could never buy into the fact that Sega expected other parties to finance a Sonic feature film. He expected Sega to finance that effort and pay us to produce it.

The reason we initially teamed up in the first place is that - amazingly - he didn't have the contacts at Sega I did but he had the Hollywood connections I didn't.

The part of the story that completely ignores logic is me screwing over Ben so I can do the project on my own, completely overlooking that it was never possible for me to go forward on my own without someone having the right connections. A project of this magnitude requires multiple personalities to get off the ground, and unless someone completely goes off the rails, you dance with the one who brung you.

By all rights, Ben should have been able to pursue a Sonic film project on his own without my involvement. He should have had the contacts I had and more credibility to pull off the project than I could claim at the time. The only thing I brought to the table that he didn't was the material I created for the comic series, and he really didn't need that for the project he wanted to do.

The way I see the whole situation with Ben - and this is a problem with a large number of creators - is that it was his lack of business sense that kept our effort from moving forward. There were no good guys or bad guys, just another project that didn't have all the necessary elements to get off the ground properly.

Ironically, and I'll post some of the documentation soon, when Sega executives did propose putting up half the financing for my group's project a few years later, they soon lost their jobs. (Whether that was part of the reason or not, the timing was unnerving, to say the least.) My group had gone in prepared to discuss a licensing deal, so we were shocked when this was proposed to us. After the firing, it was business as usual as we never again discussed anything but a straight licensing deal, and even had contracts drawn up at one point.

I will say that I don't think what Pen said was an attack, but a lot of this is just consistent with his assigning blame and accepting none of it when something he's trying to do falls through. It just so happens that, however he conveyed Hurst's idea to people in SEGA licensing at the time, basically killed any chance of it getting off the ground (it should be noted that they were fairly receptive when Hurst contacted them and then they put him in touch with Penders--then things went down hill).

Edited April 26, 2015 by Zaysho

[horridus]

 

I will say that I don't think what Pen said was an attack, but a lot of this is just consistent with his assigning blame and accepting none of it when something he's trying to do falls through. It just so happens that, however he conveyed Hurst's idea to people in SEGA licensing at the time, basically killed any chance of it getting off the ground (it should be noted that they were fairly receptive when Hurst contacted them and then they put him in touch with Penders--then things went down hill).

 

Aye. Having witnessed Penders in action over the years, there are times it becomes very apparrent that he genuinely does not get how he comes off. I can say it's a pretty safe bet that he didn't intend malice, but that more then likely he wound up phrasing things in a way that made the idea come off poisonously. And it doesn't really change that he went behind Hurst's back in doing this... and it REALLY doesn't help that after that incident, he tried to get his OWN film made... as we all regretfully remember. 

[baba_944]

I wish they would gone back before the first Genesis-wave, "SEGA" and "Archie" should be in talks with Fenders for the characters back. We could find out what happen Scrouge, the Destructix, Geoffry St. John, etc. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I wish they would gone back before the first Genesis-wave, "SEGA" and "Archie" should be in talks with Fenders for the characters back. We could find out what happen Scrouge, the Destructix, Geoffry St. John, etc. 

 

...Dude, did you miss the other hundred times this has already been said?

 

Sega and Archie don't give a shit about the missing characters. The book is still successful without them and to Sega, the comic is an extremely tiny blimp. On top of that, no one wants to deal with Penders again. He's completely burned his bridge with them. They want absolutely nothing else to do with the man.

 

What Penders is asking from them is also going against Sega's orders. Sonic can't have a definite future or be shown aging, but Penders wants Mobius 25 Years Later and The Lara-Su Chronicles to be the official canon future to Sonic. Sega doesn't want Sonic being in a relationship, which goes against Sonic and Sally's marriage in Mobius 25 Years Later. Penders also wanted Locke to be randomly revived, going against Ian's Dead Means Dead rule.

 

The final nail in the coffin is Penders wants each issue that features his characters to be sent to him and approved so that would mean more money would have to be spent getting him to give the OK to send the issue out to print, more time would have to be spent sending it to both Penders and Sega for approval, and considering how much of crybaby Penders is if anything of any kind of significance happens to his characters, you can be damn well sure that he'd end up delaying stories due to him complaining about some event happening to the Echidnas and his characters. There's also the fact that if Penders and Sega disagree on what should be approved, then it'll only further delay the comic.

 

I'm sorry but it is not and I repeat IS NOT just as easy as Sega and Archie talking with Penders. They are sick, sore, and tired of Penders' sue happy attitude and just don't want anything to do with him again. 

[Drawloverlala]

as i see recently on this Topic... i see Ken Penders seems to don't know much of the games and the official video games media..and etc..

 

i've been wondering...

how did SEGA allowed him to do almost what he pleased during his period working on archie comics?! i mean..

now SEGA's mandates are so restrictive about Sonic canon characters' shippings, family and origins..

why they didn't do that before with a guy like this working for Sonic archie comics?

 

...

[SenEDDtor Missile]

as i see recently on this Topic... i see Ken Penders seems to don't know much of the games and the official video games media..and etc..

 

i've been wondering...

how did SEGA allowed him to do almost what he pleased during his period working on archie comics?! i mean..

now SEGA's mandates are so restrictive about Sonic canon characters' shippings, family and origins..

why they didn't do that before with a guy like this working for Sonic archie comics?

 

...

It's been said before, but I'll say it again (or at least the gist of it).

 

The editor of Archie at the time was REALLY lazy at his job when Penders was the writer for Sonic, so Penders was basically given total control with little to no restrictions. In addition, this was during the time when SEGA and Sonic were at their best (roughly at least), so they probably didn't really care what happened as long as the Archie Sonic Comics sold well. It was only much later after a new editor came in and Sonic's popularity started taking a hit that Archie and SEGA got their shit together. Penders of course didn't like actually having to do his job properly, so he ended up quitting, leaving Ian Flynn to clean up his mess for the better part of several years.

[horridus]

as i see recently on this Topic... i see Ken Penders seems to don't know much of the games and the official video games media..and etc..

 

i've been wondering...

how did SEGA allowed him to do almost what he pleased during his period working on archie comics?! i mean..

now SEGA's mandates are so restrictive about Sonic canon characters' shippings, family and origins..

why they didn't do that before with a guy like this working for Sonic archie comics?

 

...

 

Because around the time that Archie had hired him, SEGA didn't quite have as much of a 'concrete' vision for Sonic, so to speak. Back in the 90s, Sonic was an undisputed king of video games, and anything with his face on it sold. They'd allow local adaptations and interpretations and all that junk, hence why you'd get a dozen or so continuities. Further, SEGA didn't really care about what happened to Sonic overseas, being more primarily interested in how Sonic did in Japan. 

 

Also, you gotta remember, mass communication wasn't as easy or as fast as it is now. It's not like they could just insta-message or tweet or email. Combine this with Archie's own lackluster management of things, and you had a perfect recipe for Penders to do the damage he did. It wasn't until Adventure and afterwards that SEGA began to decide they had a SPECIFIC idea in mind for how Sonic would be portrayed, one that would carry over to things like the Archie comic. 

 

In short? Penders got as far as he did due to apathy on all sides, plain and simple. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Simple. Everyone was very crappy at their jobs. I know that may sound like a joke, but it's actually quite true.

 

Sega as I previously mentioned didn't care about the comic nearly as much as they do now. They had little to no guidelines or restrictions placed on the comic to our knowledge. Archie didn't care because Archie Sonic was selling, which was likely due to it being right in the middle of the height of Sonic's popularity at the time. As for how Penders got free reign on the comic without having a clue what the hell Sonic was, Penders had connections with some people at Archie, and since he claimed his son was a fan of the games, they gave him the writing job.

 

Now how Penders got away with everything after Sonic Adventure is a different story entirely. You see, the editor at the time was really bad at his job. Like really really bad. As in just giving Penders free reign and not complaining or making any changes to the comic. That's how Penders managed to get away with the downright idiotic and awful stories he pawned off month after month in the comic. All that changed when the editor got replaced.

 

The new editor was one who actually planned to do his job and was not about to give Penders free reign to do whatever the hell he wanted. He wanted changes to Mobius 25 Years Later as it was an extremely boring story and as such, suggested ideas such as Shadow becoming an evil king. This of course caused Penders to take a hissy fit and do a tantrum, quitting the comic because someone dared to do their job and alter his story. As I previously said, he likely believed he was sticking it to Archie and Sega, and it would force them to come crawling back to him with their tails between their legs, and allow him to do whatever he wanted again. But it completely backfired, with the comic and fans finally getting a writer who can actually do good stories: Ian Flynn. 

 

That's how Penders managed to get away with it for so long.

[Drawloverlala]

ohh i have to say i understood pretty well this..  i liked your explanations very much..  heh thanks...

 

i'm kinda sorry for not knowing these kind of facts all the while i've been a fan of archie comics...

but thanks...

 

it looks like almost everything about Ken Penders stuff (except for the new things he says on tweeter ) it has been spoken already..

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Oh I forgot to post it here, but I made a short Pre-Reboot Archie Sonic tribute. It features Post-Reboot Sonic and Tails arriving in the destroyed remains of Mobius Prime.

 

A Tribute to Original Archie Sonic:

 

-Sonic & Tails teleport into a weird blank white universe-

Sonic-Hey Tails, where are we? I don't see anything.

Tails-This is weird, the device doesn't give me any information or anything. Just a name.

Sonic-A name?

Tails-Yeah...Mobius Prime!

Sonic-That name! It sounds familar.

Tails-Yeah but I don't understand, what happened here? Where's the universe?

-Sonic gets a suddenly flash of memories-

Sonic-Ah!

Tails-Sonic! What happened?!

Sonic-Nothing....I just had a weird flash of memories...Like back at the beginning of this whole mess. Some jerky skunk, a bunch of Echidnas that looked like Knuckles, and a bunch of other universes. 

Tails-I...I think I got it too...

Sonic-The only question now is where are they. What happened to them...

Tails-I think I remember...Knuckles' kind was banished by a selfish person. for selfish needs.

Sonic-Nicole was exiled...and the former king...Elias.

Tails-And now...nothing...

Sonic-You mean...They're gone.

Tails-Given the state of things. Yes. 

Sonic-So much destruction, all because of Eggman and his stupid temper tantrum

Tails-...And now, we've lost so many friends. So many memories.

-Both Sonic and Tails take a minute to reflect-

Sonic-Let's go Tails. I'm sure our friends still exist somewhere, out there. All we have to do is find them! Then we'll create brand new memories with them!

-Tails smiles and nods in response and teleports them to another universe-

[Sai Start Marker]

It's hilarious that he genuinely believes that Len Janson and Pat Allee, of all people, had anything to do with the construction of Sonic. It's nice to see Penders keeping the arrogance of the 90's Sega of America marketing department alive well into 2015.

 

Another thing that's hilarious is his continuing libel of a dead man, re: Ben Hurst. I may not have liked Hurst's self-aggrandizing approach to adapting Sonic into a cartoon, but he doesn't deserve that shit.

[QuantumEdge]

It's hilarious that he genuinely believes that Len Janson and Pat Allee, of all people, had anything to do with the construction of Sonic. It's nice to see Penders keeping the arrogance of the 90's Sega of America marketing department alive well into 2015.

 

Another thing that's hilarious is his continuing libel of a dead man, re: Ben Hurst. I may not have liked Hurst's self-aggrandizing approach to adapting Sonic into a cartoon, but he doesn't deserve that shit.

No, not by a long shot.  Frankly, despite all the stupidity, facepalm inducing business decisions, refusal of taking even a speck of blame, nauseating ego and pathetically bad knowledge of the franchise, I'd still not dislike him quite as much if hadn't pulled such an insensitive stunt.  As far as I know, Ben wasn't that bad a person to deserve those kinds of comments after his tragic death from the man who ran his movie idea into the ground and then make his own pitch a short while later.  That's my biggest gripe with him really, for once again trying to remove all blame from himself and coming off as more spiteful than he probably intended to sound.

[RaginRonic]

No, not by a long shot.  Frankly, despite all the stupidity, facepalm inducing business decisions, refusal of taking even a speck of blame, nauseating ego and pathetically bad knowledge of the franchise, I'd still not dislike him quite as much if hadn't pulled such an insensitive stunt.  As far as I know, Ben wasn't that bad a person to deserve those kinds of comments after his tragic death from the man who ran his movie idea into the ground and then make his own pitch a short while later.  That's my biggest gripe with him really, for once again trying to remove all blame from himself and coming off as more spiteful than he probably intended to sound.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

How do we know Penders buried Hurst's idea while promoting his own? Honest question.

Would Hurst have been interested in writing for the comic? I thought he was strictly on the Hollywood side of things.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I'm not sure what the source is but Hurst's idea was that when pitching the Sonic movie, he would bounce ideas off the people at Sega, and they would do the same, eventually leading to them agreeing on ideas and ultimately coming to what they felt was a good Sonic movie based on SatAM and due to Penders' time writing the comic, he thought it'd be a good idea to get him on board.

 

I'm not sure how exactly it happened but apparently Penders was the one who pitched the idea to Sega but ultimately fucked up Hurst's intentions entirely. I can't remember how it went but I think Penders wanted full creative control rather than Hurst's idea of bouncing ideas of one another and everyone winning. The end result was Sega believing the film wouldn't be viable due to Penders' idiotic pitch, and Hurst's hope of a SatAM Season 3 to be shattered. What then happened was Penders went and pitched a film that looked like it was going to suck massively. 

 

And yet, despite the fact it was all Penders' fault, despite the fact he was the one who fucked up the pitch and Hurst's intentions, he decided to insult Hurst by claiming he lacked business sense.