The Sonic Vs Thread.

[Splash the Otter]

I always interpreted it as Sonic neutralizing Shadow and attaching the fake Chaos Emerald to the cannon from the outside. Causing the cannon to blow up when it tried to charge the power for the blast. They don't show how Sonic attached it, because, for the purposes of the story it isn't really important, even if it doesn't logically make sense.

 

When Eggman inserts the real Emerald he gets frustrated, asking why the cannon won't fire, and that's because it's destroyed ala Sonic's efforts. But destroying the cannon had no effect on Gerald's program so it activated anyway.

But didn't the Biolizard merge with the Eclipse Cannon in the final story?

[Spin Attaxx]

It was just continuing the ARK's command of crashing into the Earth.

[Emerald Chaos]

But didn't the Biolizard merge with the Eclipse Cannon in the final story?

 

Well... the explosion didn't need to (and going by the cutscene where you see it blow up, it didn't) entirely obliterate the cannon. Just render it inoperable.

[Mysterious X]

Guys, this thread is hardly a life or death kind of discussion. Please keep the causticity on the down low.

 

Fair enough for me.

 

I always interpreted it as Sonic neutralizing Shadow and attaching the fake Chaos Emerald to the cannon from the outside. Causing the cannon to blow up when it tried to charge the power for the blast. They don't show how Sonic attached it, because, for the purposes of the story it isn't really important, even if it doesn't logically make sense.

 

When Eggman inserts the real Emerald he gets frustrated, asking why the cannon won't fire, and that's because it's destroyed ala Sonic's efforts. But destroying the cannon had no effect on Gerald's program so it activated anyway.

 

Thank you! This is exactly what I'm saying.

 

When was logic ever needed anyway? (A running hedgehog who breathes in space.)

 

But didn't the Biolizard merge with the Eclipse Cannon in the final story?

 

Not really, he emerged with ARK itself. I think they do mention that several times.

It's the ARK that's supposed to crash with Earth to cause as great damage as possible... Revenge is a dish better served cold, as they say.

 

Well... the explosion didn't need to (and going by the cutscene where you see it blow up, it didn't) entirely obliterate the cannon. Just render it inoperable.

 

I tend to disagree, a little harm to the cannon can be repaired, such a mass destruction weapon should be destroyed once and for all, so no one can use it anymore.

And when Tails said the fake emerald will explode, it sounded like it will freaking explode! Think about it, an (almost) Chaos emerald, exploding, that sure is ought to destroy the cannon into tiny pieces.

 

Well, it's up to you to believe that the Hero story ending was canon after all. If you don't think it is, I disagree with this one too.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I tend to disagree, a little harm to the cannon can be repaired, such a mass destruction weapon should be destroyed once and for all, so no one can use it anymore.

And when Tails said the fake emerald will explode, it sounded like it will freaking explode! Think about it, an (almost) Chaos emerald, exploding, that sure is ought to destroy the cannon into tiny pieces.

That's conjecture and nothing but conjecture. What does your conjecture say about the possibility that a much more powerful explosion might have critically damaged the Ark and endangered everyone onboard?

 

My conjecture is that Tails doesn't strike me as the kind of person who'd go for overkill. If he could calculate an explosive reaction that would render the Eclipse Cannon inoperable but keep the Ark itself relatively unharmed, then he would do so. The Ark is no Death Egg - Tails has no reason to want to destroy it, especially considering he and all his friends are onboard.

[Jolt_TH]

Why would Sonic throw it into the canon hole? Or at the canon? When at the cutscene before meteor herd he is seen inside the control room about to put the emerald in the control panel for the canon, doing so would have as sweet cues video said it would reverse the energy field of the emeralds and blow up

1) ridding the energy to the canon so it couldn't fire

2) blowing up the control panel so Eggman couldn't use it

I can't see how throwing the emerald at a metal structure would do anything when the emeralds (and the energy of the emeralds) are way up inside the Ark (hence why you have to race the energy in Canons Core)

Tails has outlined the plan and I can't see how sonic would think that altering it would do any different.

Surely if the canon itself was to explode there would be a hole in the Ark (as the control centre looks to be in the heart of the Ark itself). Rather than just destroying the control panel which would render the eclipse canon useless

[Diogenes]

Why would Sonic throw it into the canon hole? Or at the canon?

I would guess he didn't have time to make it back to the control room, so he improvised.

I can't see how throwing the emerald at a metal structure would do anything when the emeralds (and the energy of the emeralds) are way up inside the Ark

Well, the energy of the emeralds is in the cannon when it's about to fire. Destabilize that and the cannon goes boom (er, in the bad way, not the normal way. bad for the cannon, that is).

It's worth noting that Sonic's already outside immediately after the cannon explodes.

[Jolt_TH]

I would guess he didn't have time to make it back to the control room, so he improvised.Well, the energy of the emeralds is in the cannon when it's about to fire. Destabilize that and the cannon goes boom (er, in the bad way, not the normal way. bad for the cannon, that is).

It's worth noting that Sonic's already outside immediately after the cannon explodes.

I always assumed that the canon blew due to Germans plans, and sonic was there after his fight with Shadow, but I can see your point, I never really looked into the twist and turns in the endings really, I always assumed that either he put it in and got back out or he just never got there. But I came to that conclusion when I was 9 and never thought any different well either that or I just forgot about the fake emerald since it wasn't mentioned again (I trusted SEGA to fill in important plot points for me). But I can see how it would work

Come to think of it, I always thought it was weird that the cutscene where sonic is summoned wasn't before Crazy Gadget rather than meteor herd, I was always like "...wtf!"

Edited April 12, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It would have been better if they explained those parts more, as I said before. It looks contradicting when you hear that the cannon can't be destroyed on the outside, only to be destroyed on the outside or see where the emerald was placed where the cannon was destabilized.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Sonic: "Before the cannon fires, I'll slam-dunk it in there!"

 

So he put it in the cannon. Where in the cannon, I have no clue. He could have literally slam-dunked it down the barrel hole.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic: "Before the cannon fires, I'll slam-dunk it in there!"

 

So he put it in the cannon. Where in the cannon, I have no clue. He could have literally slam-dunked it down the barrel hole.

What barrel hole? The thing was essentially a needle that expelled Chaos Energy.

 

...lol, look at me. I'm usually defending SA2, and now I'm pointing out its storytelling flaws.

 

EDIT: Just noticed we went off topic...

Edited April 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Jolt_TH]

Yeah how about we get back on topic

Ok how about an interesting matchup

Perfect Dark Gaia Vs. Perfect Chaos

I know we don't usually do enemies but I thought comparing the MotW might be interesting.

This one is basically water vs fire. I think Dark Gaia may have a slight advantage due to size but Chaos may be in with a chance

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Dark Gaia can crack the world into pieces based on his mythology while Chaos basically floods things. I think we know who the victor of that will be.

[Splash the Otter]

Dark Gaia can crack the world into pieces based on his mythology while Chaos basically floods things. I think we know who the victor of that will be.

We never saw the full extent of Chaos' power, since he was pacified by Sonic before he could destroy anything else. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Gaia is weak against the Chaos Emeralds, so if Chaos is in his Perfect/Super form, I'd say he has at least a fighting chance.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

We never saw the full extent of Chaos' power, since he was pacified by Sonic before he could destroy anything else. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Gaia is weak against the Chaos Emeralds, so if Chaos is in his Perfect/Super form, I'd say he has at least a fighting chance.

Gaia could fend off his god-counterpart and a super sayian hedgehog at the same time before going down, while Chaos could actually be beaten by an underpowered hedgehog that learned how to hydroplane in place of his lack of a superform if Generations has anything to say. 

 

In addition to that Chaos threw away the emeralds after he got the energy he wanted, before Sonic used the other half of it to neutralize him. We've never seen Dark Gaia actually be influenced by the emeralds, and the only methods that had the emeralds be used against him were the Gaia Temples and Super Sonic. And he could still swat Super Sonic away before trying to kamehameha the Gaia Colossus during their fight.

 

So I don't think Chaos would fair well against Dark Gaia.

Edited April 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

Gaia could fend off his god-counterpart and a super sayian hedgehog at the same time before going down, while Chaos could actually be beaten by an underpowered hedgehog that learned how to hydroplane in place of his lack of a superform if Generations has anything to say. 

 

In addition to that Chaos threw away the emeralds after he got the energy he wanted, before Sonic used the other half of it to neutralize him. We've never seen Dark Gaia actually be influenced by the emeralds, and the only methods that had the emeralds be used against him were the Gaia Temples and Super Sonic. And he could still swat Super Sonic away before trying to kamehameha the Gaia Colossus during their fight.

 

So I don't think Chaos would fair well against Dark Gaia.

The Chaos battle in Generations was changed because Sonic wouldn't have had more than 3 emeralds at the time. You might as well say that because Sonic wasn't a werehog when he fought the Egg Dragoon in Generations, the fight we saw in Unleashed is noncanon.

 

As for the Colossus (which Gaia didn't "fend off" so much as shield itself against), it's powered by the emeralds and controlled by a god (in this case, the other half of Gaia). Perfect Chaos is a god, and is likewise powered by the emeralds. Presumably in this situation he would absorb more than the negative charge.

 

Even if Gaia still ends up winning in this scenario, I doubt it would be the one-sided curbstomp match you're implying it would be.

[Spin Attaxx]

The way I see it, P. Chaos is only as tall as a skyscraper. Dark Gaia is as big as the fecking planet. He could just rip a tectonic plate off and get Chaos to boil away in the Earth's mantle/core.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The Chaos battle in Generations was changed because Sonic wouldn't have had more than 3 emeralds at the time. You might as well say that because Sonic wasn't a werehog when he fought the Egg Dragoon in Generations, the fight we saw in Unleashed is noncanon.

 

As for the Colossus (which Gaia didn't "fend off" so much as shield itself against), it's powered by the emeralds and controlled by a god (in this case, the other half of Gaia). Perfect Chaos is a god, and is likewise powered by the emeralds. Presumably in this situation he would absorb more than the negative charge.

 

Even if Gaia still ends up winning in this scenario, I doubt it would be the one-sided curbstomp match you're implying it would be.

 

Not really. Generations Egg Dragoon was heavily modified compared to the one in Unleashed rather than being the same. And I'm not implying anything to be noncanon. Still, Sonic learned a few new moves and that helped him best Chaos even despite his lack of a superform. We're talking about a game that takes a trip down memory lane here that takes place after the previous game, I think it says a lot about how Sonic has grown stronger or more skilled from his last encounter with Chaos.

 

As for the the Colossus, shielding is no different from "fending off", because in means that you're defending yourself as much as you are fighting back. And the fact of the matter regarding Dark Gaia is that not once did he need any Chaos Emeralds unlike Chaos and he could still fight two beings that were using the Emeralds against him. Chaos needed Emeralds to be at his strongest, and even taking Generations into consideration where it bypassed that he got beaten by a regular hedgehog instead of a superpowered one in the second encounter. Dark Gaia just needed all his minions to reform into his body to be at his full strength due to being awakened too early, and he took on two superpowered beings before he was finally brought down.

 

I think it's safe to say it would be a curbstomp at this point.

[Splash the Otter]

Not really. Generations Egg Dragoon was heavily modified compared to the one in Unleashed rather than being the same. And I'm not implying anything to be noncanon. Still, Sonic learned a few new moves and that helped him best Chaos even despite his lack of a superform. We're talking about a game that takes a trip down memory lane here that takes place after the previous game, I think it says a lot about how Sonic has grown stronger or more skilled from his last encounter with Chaos.

 

As for the the Colossus, shielding is no different from "fending off", because in means that you're defending yourself as much as you are fighting back. And the fact of the matter regarding Dark Gaia is that not once did he need any Chaos Emeralds unlike Chaos and he could still fight two beings that were using the Emeralds against him. Chaos needed Emeralds to be at his strongest, and even taking Generations into consideration where it bypassed that he got beaten by a regular hedgehog instead of a superpowered one in the second encounter. Dark Gaia just needed all his minions to reform into his body to be at his full strength due to being awakened too early, and he took on two superpowered beings before he was finally brought down.

 

I think it's safe to say it would be a curbstomp at this point.

That's your opinion. I maintain that even if Chaos did lose, it would only be after a long struggle. And your argument for Chaos losing to a regular hedgehog is still invalid. The developers wanted to recreate the battle, but obviously couldn't give Sonic his Super form just yet. Thus, tor the purposes of this game (and this game only), Chaos was slightly nerfed. The same logic would apply if they had decided to have Sonic fight Gaia again.

[Diogenes]

Chaos isn't really a god. Not in the sense most of us probably use the word. He's certainly powerful, but Dark Gaia's reason for existing is to literally unmake the world; he's on an entirely different level.

[Jolt_TH]

Yeah I didn't really think that through, Dark Gaia pretty much wins I think, either very easily or in the end.

What about perfect chaos vs the Biolizard then? Surely that's a little fairer, the Biolizard can heal (as long as he has his life support pack) and chaos is only attackable by his brain, they both have 1 weak point, can fire lasers and other projectiles, the Biolizard has a close range attack, but I doubt it'll be much good against chaos.

I think that battle would boil down to who was smarter really, Chaos is a sentient being, as is the Biolizard, but the Biolizard was created, so who knows be extent of its tactical thinking.

I imagine that chaos would find a weak point and find ways to attack it once he has found it, the Biolizard I imagine just attacking and maybe getting lucky. But I could be wrong as he does know to put up more defenses during the FINALHAZARD boss.

[Diogenes]

Definitely Chaos in that match. The Biolizard really isn't exceptionally powerful; the thing needs mechanical life support to survive, meaning Shadow had essentially killed it on his own. The only reason the Super 'hogs were needed in SA2 is because it was going to drag the ARK into crashing before it died, and there was no other way to stop it in time.

 

So Chaos could probably win with one shot of laser breath.

[Splash the Otter]

Chaos isn't really a god. Not in the sense most of us probably use the word. He's certainly powerful, but Dark Gaia's reason for existing is to literally unmake the world; he's on an entirely different level.

How is Chaos not a god? Sure, he isn't a primal force like Gaia, but I don't see what difference that makes.

Edited April 12, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Diogenes]

He's a chao. Heavily mutated and very powerful, but not a god in the "creator of all existence" sense (neither are the Gaias, for the record, but they're planet-level deities, while Chaos is more a water spirit).

[Splash the Otter]

He's a chao. Heavily mutated and very powerful, but not a god in the "creator of all existence" sense (neither are the Gaias, for the record, but they're planet-level deities, while Chaos is more a water spirit).

I've heard the "ascended chao" theory, but that doesn't make him not a god! As I already pointed out, it just means that he isn't a primal force like Gaia. And seriously, "water spirit"? That's just plain disrespectful.

 

Also, I have trouble believing that Chaos used to be a chao. I could buy the idea that he created the first chao, but being one himself is just ridiculous and contrived.

Edited April 12, 2013 by ElectroKyurem