The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

[SuperLink]

Cel-Shading was used in regular animation before video games.

It's always been this way, SEGA invents a technique, everyone ignores it. Nintendo uses it and all of a sudden it's innovative and godly.

Perhaps that's SEGA's fault for letting the game go so far under the radar? The thing about the game business is, this always happens. Ideas are taken and improved where the original "user" gets credited with little more than being the first to use it.

Enix may have been one of the first companies to make RPGs, but Square made it universally popular.

It's not "unfair", it's business and marketing. A lot of the people here probably haven't even heard of Fear Effect, a game often credited with being the first "anime imitation" and it heavily resembles cel shading despite not using it. It was released before Jet Set Radio.

Ugh I read something over at IGN that says the first glimpse of the new Zelda isn't supposed to properly debut until next years E3. So far away.........I cling to hope that the Oct. conference will bring us a trailer. Was there a confirmation of a Nintendo conference for this Oct.?

Not surprised. I expect Nintendo don't want a repeat of the mess that was TP's release, so holding it back for as long as possible is a good move.

[ShadiWulf]

SEGA didn't invent cell shading, and Nintendo were never praised for "inventing" it, which they also didn't do.

I'm talking about everything in general, Miyamoto got motion control from SEGA's garbage can

but everyone here will deny it because Nintendo is god.

[SuperLink]

but everyone here will deny it because Nintendo is god.

Do you think anyone is saying the Wiimote is original and innovative? Please. It's original because it's the first controller of it's kind to be used as the primary method of controlling a console. Motion sensing controllers are very much old. Light Guns in the Arcade anyone? You act as if SEGA have never taken a good idea in their lives.

[Patticus]

Can we shut up about what's original, who did what first and so on? Really, really not on-topic.

---

I for one would also dearly like to see a new Wind Waker-style game with a graphical style very much akin to its original artwork.

A Zelda game looking like that would be frigging awesome. As long as there are American teenagers, though, it will never happen.

[SuperLink]

I really think artistic cel shading is the natural next step for the Zelda series... It would be fantastic to see crazy monsters with unique art styles similar to in Okami.

I don't think American teenagers have anything to do with it. Even though Nintendo are all about "innovation", they're hypocritically very hesitant to evolve their own series' (graphics, plot, etc). I hope this new Zelda is an evolution

[Patticus]

I really think artistic cel shading is the natural next step for the Zelda series... It would be fantastic to see crazy monsters with unique art styles similar to in Okami.

I don't think American teenagers have anything to do with it.

They're the primary group who whines at anything not gritty or realistic. They were quite upset when Wind Waker was initially shown off.

Even though Nintendo are all about "innovation", they're hypocritically very hesitant to evolve their own series' (graphics, plot, etc). I hope this new Zelda is an evolution

They're evolving their own series' by exploring interesting new gameplay avenues via controls and, particularly with Zelda, going for a completely new way of doing the games, e.g. by not having the same old stale and predictable "dungeon-boss-overworld-dungeon-boss-overworld" format Twilight Princess went for. The plots remain roughly the same because they aren't the aspect that needs to change to keep the series fresh, the graphics do actually change so that's bullshit right there, and as for innovation, well, Wikipedia defines innovation thus:

"The term innovation means a new way of doing something. It may refer to incremental, radical, and revolutionary changes in thinking, products, processes, or organizations. A distinction is typically made between invention, an idea made manifest, and innovation, ideas applied successfully"

I'm pretty sure Miyamoto and Aonuma's thinking in regards to Zelda has changed - hell, it'd have to if they want to get out of the old routine the games were stuck in - and Spirit Tracks will shortly back Phantom Hourglass up in displaying that the products in the Zelda series have changed as a result of that. Zelda Wii will show more changes in thinking, moving away from the stuffy old traditional pad into the 3D spaces of motion control with MotionPlus.

There's clearly innovation going on.

[SuperLink]

They're evolving their own series' by exploring interesting new gameplay avenues via controls and, particularly with Zelda, going for a completely new way of doing the games, e.g. by not having the same old stale and predictable "dungeon-boss-overworld-dungeon-boss-overworld" format Twilight Princess went for.

I want that more than anything, but how do we know it's been confirmed? How do we know that this new Zelda won't start in a Forest, and then go to a firey themed area and then watery theme area respectively?

I want more than anything though for the plot to evolve. Zelda plots with few exceptions have been quite predictable and straightforward, which personally I blame Miyamoto for. I know a game doesn't need a great plot to be great, but a great plotcan definitely make a great game even better.

Some of my favourite games are those with great plots just because.

[Patticus]

I want that more than anything, but how do we know it's been confirmed? How do we know that this new Zelda won't start in a Forest, and then go to a firey themed area and then watery theme area respectively?

Well, I suppose we don't 'know' for sure, Nintendo is quite mysterious and its logic sometimes inpenetrable, but I would definitely call PH and ST clear indicators of the intention Miyamoto has to shake things up, but it's not the area themes you speak of that are in need of removal or change, it's what they're used for and how they and their dungeons make up the greater structure of the games that must be changed to keep the series fresh. Particular elements within these subjects such as boss battle placement and item use definitely have to be seen to change in some way.

Nintendo obviously won't always hit the mark in experimenting with new layouts (Phantom Hourglass was rather hit and miss - some amazing ideas, some poorly implemented ones), but I honestly believe that Nintendo's Zelda teams have been given a mandate to get away from the old, familiar Zelda structures and find new ones that work as well if not better.

I am confident that Miyamoto will make good on his assertion that we won't see the game structures of OOT/MM/WW/TP in Zelda Wii and other future Zelda titles.

Also:

Why can't we have dungeons embedded into the overworld itself, and not be separate worlds unto themselves?

Could we not have bosses that, instead of always and forever lying at the ends of dungeons, pursue you through the dungeon (altering its geography as they smash around), fight you at several points therein, or even encounter you in the overworld before and after the big fight? The boar-riding Moblin commander of Twilight Princess springs to mind here as an example of what could be done.

Why do there need to be only one or two towns and villages, why not a citadel, several towns and double that number in villages?

Why shouldn't we be able to visit neighbouring kingdoms? The Triforce remains in Hyrule, as does the Master Sword, which could present some interesting opportunities to the player, as it would strip a few of their items from them and allow them to pick up new ones specific to that kingdom.

Why is it that we must always use the item we get in the dungeon to fight its boss? What would be wrong with bosses, as the game goes along, requiring the use of various items you've already acquired, in perhaps some interesting new ways?

There's so much that could and should change, some clearly wouldn't happen until Nintendo's next major console, but a fair bit can easily be made to happen with what's available today.

[speedfreak]

That picture reminds me that I didn't like a lot of the enemy designs in WW either. I really hated how the redeads looked. The character/enemy design in WW is what turned a lot of people off from the game, not the fact that it was cell shaded. You can say the people who didn't like that style "whined" all you want but it doesn't change the fact that all the toon Link lovers "whine" when they don't get their way too. You're kinda doing it by wishing the new games looked like WW and writing anyone off who didn't like that style as a whiner who only likes games gritty and realistic.

I personally don't think they'll ever go back to WW style for consoles. Not that they won't try cell shading again, they just won't take a "chibi" character design style again. The outrage was way too high for them to risk that again IMO.

[Patticus]

The character designs were fine, they added to the charm of the game (WW Moblins/Darknuts > all others), and if they were sacrificed with cel-shading maintained it may not feel right to me. Worth a shot though, I guess.

You can say the people who didn't like that style "whined" all you want but it doesn't change the fact that all the toon Link lovers "whine" when they don't get their way too.

If there's only going to be one Wind Waker style game on consoles then I have every goddamn right to complain and kick up a fuss, as the situation quickly becomes such that only the realistic Zelda lovers being catered for and not the very large base of people within the fanbase who loved Wind Waker (or indeed other styles of Zelda), characters and all. It's a style of game far and away more magical and epic to me* than Twilight Princess and Ocarina and I really, really miss it. That's not to say I don't love Twilight, I do, its title sequence sends shivers down my spine, however it lacks something Wind Waker had in spades - an almost child-like sense of magic. That and consistently great music, a better central town, more lovable characters... but I digress.

If the style only continues to exist on handhelds, then I just hope that the next generation dawns soon so we can be done with blocky celda and get back to the beautiful, smooth and timelessly beautiful Wind Waker which, by the by, has aged far better than Twilight Princess and is still among the best looking games ever created.

Apologies for the rant but I think it's really unfair that realistic is seemingly being prioritised over cel-shaded in the home console Zelda titles. Be nice to see an Ocarina-style DS Zelda too actually, even out the spread of styles.

The outrage was way too high for them to risk that again IMO.

OUTRAGE... beautiful game pisses off Ocarina fans

*Probably because it was my first Zelda.

[Thirsty Pocket]

Boy, I was hanging out in the wrong forums (Nsider2's Zelda board...) This is where all the more intelligent Zelda discussion is at.

[speedfreak]

You know what i meant by the outrage. Nintendo got a shit storm of negative feedback when they first showed WW. It's true a lot of people warmed up to it, but I think they don't want to take the risk of going through something like that again.

By the way I don't know if you've been paying attention to me but I AGREE WITH YOU that the cell shading looks nicer then the realistic graphics. I only wish they would take a TP character/enemy design approach and apply cell shading to that.

[Patticus]

You know what i meant by the outrage. Nintendo got a shit storm of negative feedback when they first showed WW. It's true a lot of people warmed up to it, but I think they don't want to take the risk of going through something like that again.

That negative feedback was a one time thing (and a total embarrassment for any press members who took part) - if they showed off another Wind Waker-style console Zelda, or one more like Okami or Prince Of Persia, there wouldn't be a hugely negative reception because we're all pretty much used to the idea, which is still being touted on the DS.

[speedfreak]

Well maybe you're right. I was just saying I think Nintendo wouldn't want to try it again because so many people flipped out about it. Anyway if they did go back to toon shading I think they would either take the more "realistic" character designs and apply cell shading to them or come up with a completely different art style all together. I don't think Nintendo would revisit the exact style of WW again.

[SuperLink]

The only problems with games like that nowadays are marketing them. Both Okami and MadWorld did not nearly as they perhaps should have done, because the game style is "weird/different".

Nintendo have absolutely no worries when it comes to selling Zelda.

And, if I hadn't made it clear enough, I'm a little fed up of Toon Link being used over and over in the handheld games, and I really do want every different Link to actually look different. I wouldn't complain if a next gen cel shaded game was made. I agree that WW has aged better than TP visuals wise. TP still looks fantastic, but at least WW didn't resort to sometimes ridiculous levels of bloom.

Boy, I was hanging out in the wrong forums (Nsider2's Zelda board...) This is where all the more intelligent Zelda discussion is at.

Well I have to say that most of the debate I've actually had have been here and not on other forums, even on Nintendo forums. I end up quoting posts from here instead! So other than that silly banter on the last page I agree.

[Patticus]

The only problems with games like that nowadays are marketing them. Both Okami and MadWorld did not [sell] nearly as [well as] they perhaps should have done, because the game style is "weird/different".

Surely all Nintendo would need to do in its marketing is point out that the game is like the ones on the DS. Also the primary market on the Wii is one that's a lot more at home with cartoony games like Wind Waker than it is with realistic games like Twilight Princess, that and the DS connection would to my mind ensure steady sales.

Hmmm... perhaps Nintendo is waiting to release NPC:LoZ:TWW before embarking upon a new console Celda. And perhaps they're waiting until Zelda Wii hits before they do that, so they could implement Zelda Wii's final controls and not Twilight Princess'. It wouldn't take them very long (Retro Studios didn't take long to put out MP Trilogy, Nintendo's been sat on that one for over a year) and it'd allow them to gauge how the Wii's "casual" audience reacts. I'd guess that they'd react fairly well given that it's a classic Good Guy Saves Sweet Princess fairytale.

*Clings onto hope for dear life*

[speedfreak]

Well I'm happy the next Zelda has the TP style character designs again. Would I be upset if it used WW style? Honestly, yes, but I would still play and love the game no doubt. Why not find a middle ground though. Something like this using cell shading on a home console would be great IMO.

[Solid SOAP]

but everyone here will deny it because Nintendo is god.

You realise that Nintendo is hated now more than ever, right? All I hear these days is complaining that "Nintendo betrayed us!" because they decided to release a couple of casual games for the Wii (Though to be honest, last year there was a huge drought in games), despite the fact that there are over 5 great looking Nintendo and 3rd party titles that I am definitely willing to buy.

And yes, for the record, even as a hardcore Nintendo fan since the Super Nintendo, I agree with you about New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Nintendo are putting next to no effort into that game and, while it looks like it could be fun with family or friends over, it definitely won't be good on it's on, as I won't be able to see through the fact that it's pretty much a port with no original qualities to differentiate itself from the original title on the DS besides 4-player co-op and some new power-ups. That said, I'm pretty stoked to see what Nintendo are cooking up with Zelda Wii and I'll probably be picking up Metroid: Other M near it's release date. Mario Galaxy 2 is a must as well, especially after playing the first one which was a master piece.

That's the thing with Nintendo, it's like they have two teams of developers, one for shoddy, shovelware type games such as NSMBWii, and the other that have the ability to make utterly fantastic and beautiful games that are not only fun and engaging, but innovative and new such as Super Mario Galaxy.

What's with your love of SEGA and hate of every other company though? It seems that when SEGA announce something as basic and simple as a Kart racer (Sonic & SEGA Super Stars) you praise it to high heaven as the greatest game ever. It seems your doing to SEGA what you say Nintendo fans are doing to, well, Nintendo. SEGA Super Stars Racing looks like a fun little title, but I can't imagine it being anything more.

---------------

Okay. Back to uh, Miyamoto's roundtable. I really hope that the next Zelda will use the Wii Motion Plus as well as Wii Sports Resort is using it. I didn't really care and first and thought that the WM+ was just another gimmick to make control a little better, but it actually looks really engaging and fun to use. It still could use some work, I noticed some swings with the sword didn't contact with the logs, but that's nothing they can't fix by 2010/11 when the game is released. I really hope they don't resort to using waggle with this next game, because the WM+ could up it's fun factor by a fair amount.

[SuperLink]

Well I'm happy the next Zelda has the TP style character designs again. Would I be upset if it used WW style? Honestly, yes, but I would still play and love the game no doubt. Why not find a middle ground though. Something like this using cell shading on a home console would be great IMO.

Yes yes yes! I miss that Link so much ;-; Young Link is definitely my favourite Link, but he's been replaced by two extreme opposited, Chibi Toon Link and realistic Adult Link.

Slightly off topic: The Cel Shading used for characters in Tales of Vesperia is excellent. Even if it means waiting until next gen, I'd definitely like to see an anime looking Zelda title if not an arty one, which is probably more likely. Besides, if an anime Zelda was revealed it would instantly put off the hordes of gamers who hate anime for no real reason.

What's with your love of SEGA and hate of every other company though? It seems that when SEGA announce something as basic and simple as a Kart racer (Sonic & SEGA Super Stars) you praise it to high heaven as the greatest game ever. It seems your doing to SEGA what you say Nintendo fans are doing to, well, Nintendo. SEGA Super Stars Racing looks like a fun little title, but I can't imagine it being anything more.

And apparantly I'm a fanboy >_>;

Edited June 7, 2009 by #385 Jirachi

[Cyberblade]

OUTRAGE... beautiful game pisses off Ocarina fans

was what was "promised" to a generation that first played OOT and marveled at how realistic looking it was for the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ7riCXrDxY, is what was delivered to those fans.

^ This was the outrage. Wind Waker Link just looked awkward, and often times horribly so in the original video.

Myself I LIKED the graphical style for Wind Waker. It suited the games story, and the way the game was set up. It would not have worked in a hyper realistic style. I wouldn't mind seeing another Wind Waker styled game, and neither would a lot of people, but they need to fix several problems.

1. Transportation: I liked the boat. It was fun, but the boat needed combat that didn't require taking the sail down. They attempted to fix this with Phantom Hourglass and still failed, because half the time you were doing nothing, and the other half you were getting hit because targets were too small.

2. Islands suck: There's only so much you can do on an island. The game needed a fucking continent.

3. Finish development: There's no excuse for leaving a game so horribly unfinished and slapping in a triforce hunt quest to fill the extra time.

4. Atmosphere anyone?: There are TWO moments that have any atmosphere in Wind Waker. The firsts when you pull the Master Sword out. The second is when you

stab Ganon through the head with the sword.

The rest is just happy go lucky cutesy. Which is great, you need that, but at the same time that gets boring after a while.

Twilight Princess took an opposite extreme. Huge overworld, nothing to do in it. Plenty of dungeons, but they were all boring and easily figured out. Lots of tense dark atmosphere, nothing more uplifting (Well, that succeeded anyway.)

I like the Dungeon > Boss > Overworld > repeat routine tbh with you. I like it. The problem with Twilight Princess was that it failed on all three. The Dungeons were simple, and unfortunate almost never reused items. The bosses were PITIFUL. Hit obvious weak point, stun, slash a million times repeat. And the overworld was boring. Very little to do at all. Few minigames, hearts were all easily found, few caves and none of them went anywhere. In LTTP there were a million caves, and often enough they'd lead into odd places. Not often outside of really straightforward caves would you ever come out in the same spot you went in.

Anyways, perhaps I've digressed a little bit. I would love to see another cel shaded console Zelda. But at the same time I'm not displeased with the artwork for the new Zelda game either. I get the impression it's not going to be exactly Twilight Princess styled. Nintendo hopefully realized the Wii is not cut out for "realistic" textures in comparison to the other consoles. It will likely recieve a stylized appearance of some kind to make up for the Wii's lack of graphical prowess. I wonder if they'll try for a cell shaded "painted" look sort of like the artwork leaked. Only time will tell.

[lounge]

Dungeon > Boss > Overworld >. The problem with Twilight Princess was that it failed on all three.

That is exactly what made me not love TP. No motivation, and boring dungeons and sidequests. And what the hell was the point of designing all that terrain in Hyrule Field when there's nothing to do in it? The field design director obviously didn't think this thru. What a waste of geometry. When they could have used all that development time to design fun caverns, etc. Another problem I had in the overworld in TP was that 90% of the chests I discovered ended up giving me an orange or whatever Rupee. Do you know how annoying that got? You don't even use the rupees for anything. And there's no point in getting more heart pieces when the enemies inflict no damage on you. I got all of them anyway for self satisfaction.

The Wind Waker was a masterpiece but it only sold like 3.5 million. TP sells over 6 million. The Oracle Series style would be interesting to see in 3d. It has a nice medium between realism and anime. I noticed some people are disliking the WW character designs. I understand how you feel, since I hated the Unleashed humans. But I think it's more forgiving in zelda since even OOT had strange, funny looking characters (Twinrova, Talon, that other jealous rancher, the old lady at the potion shop). Just as long as they don't go over board like, say, a character that looks like the ugly as hell Prof. Pickle.

Man, that brings back 5th grade memories. I loved this link.

[Flint]

2. Islands suck: There's only so much you can do on an island. The game needed a fucking continent.

The islands were a great system. Each little thing to have its own, dedicated area. Seeing a shape of land in the distance always gave you the great wonder and excitement of what sort of puzzle or exploration adventure you were gonna face next (unless you bumped into the eye reefs. Then you were just disappointed).

The only thing different between the islands and a continent is that a continent would have had land instead of water between the points of interest. Now the additional 'break' between the points actually highlighted them.

4. Atmosphere anyone?

There's plenty of it. The whole game has a wonderful, magical atmosphere to it. It all felt like a great, special adventure. The graphical style really made it jump out alive and strong. From traversing the dungeons to witnessing the dawn break while you sail (one of the greatest gaming moments ever despite being so simple), there's just so much atmosphere in Wind Waker it's unbelievable.

Truly a classic game. The only thing I could complain in it is the forced sneaking of the first Forbidden Fortress, the heavy amount of enemies of the night-time sailing and that you can't get all the figurines without a GBA-linkup. Oh, and the official soundtrack album is absolutely ridiculous in its gigantically fragmented nature.

And yeah, I also like the heavily structured style of Zelda's progress. It works great.

I don't think TP is as bad as a lot of people say - its dungeons were generally very good, the boss fights were amazing, Wolf Link was made of Pure Awesome and generally it worked really nicely, but outside all that it kinda lacked things to do. Hardly any miniquests and the few they had only rewarded you with more and more money that you genuinely had no use for after a bit. The game didn't really encourage exploration at all. Plus Link looked like a tit in it with his DERP-smile and Ganondorf's appearance was just too random in it.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Flinteon

[Solid SOAP]

I'm really hoping that the next Zelda has a larger focus on character interaction than TP had, what I liked about the N64 Zeldas was the interaction with characters in towns and stuff. WW did a pretty good job with this too, but TP's world felt boring and lifeless.

[SuperLink]

But I think it's more forgiving in zelda since even OOT had strange, funny looking characters (Twinrova, Talon, that other jealous rancher, the old lady at the potion shop). Just as long as they don't go over board like, say, a character that looks like the ugly as hell Prof. Pickle.

I dunno. There's a difference between Chibi and surreal, and thought there are bits of both in WW, the characters are a bit more plain and chibi than the surreal weird characters of OoT and MM.

I'm really hoping that the next Zelda has a larger focus on character interaction than TP had, what I liked about the N64 Zeldas was the interaction with characters in towns and stuff. WW did a pretty good job with this too, but TP's world felt boring and lifeless.

Pathetic amounts of games these days lack real character interaction, and it's one of my favourite things about games. It's probably one of the reasons I like RPGs so much, loads of time for the characters to get to know each other and react in their own way to everything each character does.

TP did have character interaction though, but I thought the characters themselves were quite boring, except Malo.

[Patticus]

was what was "promised" to a generation that first played OOT and marveled at how realistic looking it was for the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ7riCXrDxY, is what was delivered to those fans.

^ This was the outrage. Wind Waker Link just looked awkward, and often times horribly so in the original video.

But the SpaceWorld Demo was just a tech demo using a known Nintendo property, it wasn't playable and it's doubtful that they ever planned anything to come of it... although I can see how Nintendo fans saw it and took it to mean moar OOT was incoming. Crazy bunch. And that WW video doesn't look any more awkward than any other Zelda gameplay trailer, okay it wasn't the best representation of the game but it's not horrible either. Unless you actually believed the tech demo trailer was going to be the actual game, in which case you're a bit of a fool as so many subsequent E3 trailers and reality come-downs have displayed.

they need to fix several problems.

1. Transportation: I liked the boat. It was fun, but the boat needed combat that didn't require taking the sail down. They attempted to fix this with Phantom Hourglass and still failed, because half the time you were doing nothing, and the other half you were getting hit because targets were too small.

2. Islands suck: There's only so much you can do on an island. The game needed a fucking continent.

3. Finish development: There's no excuse for leaving a game so horribly unfinished and slapping in a triforce hunt quest to fill the extra time.

4. Atmosphere anyone?: There are TWO moments that have any atmosphere in Wind Waker. The firsts when you pull the Master Sword out. The second is when you

stab Ganon through the head with the sword.

The rest is just happy go lucky cutesy. Which is great, you need that, but at the same time that gets boring after a while.

1. Transportation is easily solved with the remote - while sailing, you use the pointer to aim at enemies with the projectile weapons in your HUD. That wasn't possible on the traditional pad so they had to fudge it, but now it's quite easy to make the sailing more interesting (though I myself enjoyed the wilds of the Great Sea, many of the peripheral isles away from civlisation felt quite desolate and lonely, which was awesome), as you simply add the aforementioned pointing to an increase in enemy size.

2. Islands are great, but the small ones are Wind Waker's forte and shouldn't return en masse in any new game with a seafaring theme. The Great Deku Tree made it clear that the seeds the Koroks planted every year were intended to grow the islands they were planted on, eventually forming a new Hylian "continent" above the waves - a game set 50, 100, 200 or more years after TWW would naturally feature greatly enlarged islands like continents, but there would also be room for seaways to still be present, providing variety in transportation - Epona on land (on larger isles) and a boat by sea. If the game world's size yet again expands there would be more than enough room to comfortably accomodate several large continent-esque islands with a smattering of small archipelago and isolated, wind-swept islets.

3. Miyamoto has publicly acknowledged that Wind Waker's development was over-rushed, that things were cut and that they did not want to repeat that scenario again. We will not see the situation re-run, you can count on that.

4. The game's atmosphere would've been helped out a lot if the development hadn't been rushed.

I like the Dungeon > Boss > Overworld > repeat routine tbh with you. I like it.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that formula, it has served us gamers well, but it's been the same one for ten years now and it's just the same thing over and over, it's a well worn path to be sure but it's one that's in dire need of repair and spicing up. To do that you either make the most perfect game ever with it (necessitating change afterwards as no sequel could possibly hope to top, even equal that), or you head down new paths opened up by time, technology and new faces with new ideas rising to the top ranks of the associated development team(s).

They tried the former with Twilight Princess and it didn't quite come off as intended, so they could either try again (and grin and bear it when the journos groan at them for going over the same stuff again), or they could try something different and a bit riskier. Looks like the latter to me going by the DS outings, but we'll see.

But at the same time I'm not displeased with the artwork for the new Zelda game either.

I'm not all that upset with it either, I'll still buy and love it, it's more the fact that we're going to have to wait for at least two Zelda development cycles to see another proper WW one - on DS2 or on Wii2 - that gets me.