General Fighting Game Discussion Thread.

[Chaos Warp]

Hence why shit like Tutorials, and Simple/Stylish mode exist.

Yes, I am grateful for these things, and more fighters need them. That was kinda my points, more fighters need good tutorials.

[Xenos]

You know what would be awesome? If you actually had an example of someone unfamiliar with fighting games who then picked up and mastered the basics in a short amount of time without undue frustration. That's exactly the sort of example that might win me over. Someone who hasn't played fighters for years. Someone who doesn't know what a half-circle forward move is.

Hit me.

... *Slowly raises hand*

I really started seriously learning how to play fighters this year. Otherwise I stuck to what I did best, platformers.

I'll be honest, I really think fighting games are irritating, but that doesn't mean I don't want to learn how to play them.

For example, I've actually tried Normal Mode in McC3, and while I can't play that well on it yet, just only within a day I've already developed an at least 15+ Hit Combo with Viewtiful Joe, Wolverine, and Spiderman. My fingers are sore and my thumb fucking hurts because of the extreme speed of the characters movements, but I was satisfied with myself. Even if it isn't the most impressive thing.

I've also played Tekken, and while I'm not really that great at juggling yet, I can still practice in the game without feeling too overwhelmed. (And Tekken 6 is the first Tekken game I've played since I was maybe 8).

Fighting games take a fuckton of effort sure, but they aren't too complicated at all really. You just need to try, try, and try again. That's all there is for me anyway.

[Kuzu]

Yes, I am grateful for these things, and more fighters need them. That was kinda my points, more fighters need good tutorials.

Ok then, so what's there to complain about? They outright teach you how to play the game, so what's the problem?

[Chaos Warp]

Ok then, so what's there to complain about? They outright teach you how to play the game, so what's the problem?

There isn't a problem. There's a problem when it just expects you to learn these complex mechanics, like some fighters, only giving you training mode and a long ass move list.......

Edited August 25, 2012 by Zero

[Kuzu]

There isn't a problem. There's a problem when it just expects you to learn these complex mechanics, like some fighters, only giving you training mode and a long ass move list.......

That's what we call experimenting which is generally how people learn to play a game, you have the moves just use them and string them together and see what works. You act like you have to be an instant expert at the game to have fun with it.

[Chooch]

There's a problem when it just expects you to learn these complex mechanics, like some fighters, only giving you training mode and a long ass move list.......

And none of the fighters that you're talking about have been released in years. All of them have tutorials now.

And regardless of that. Even if you didn't have it, that doesn't mean you couldn't learn like I did, through experimentation and failure.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Chooch

[Chaos Warp]

That's what we call experimenting which is generally how people learn to play a game, you have the moves just use them and string them together and see what works. You act like you have to be an instant expert at the game to have fun with it.

It's not that, but I personally prefer games that can be easily picked up and played, but hard to master. Maybe it's just me.

And none of the fighters that you're talking about have been released in years. All of them have tutorials now.

And regardless of that. Even if you didn't have it, that doesn't mean you couldn't learn like I did, through experimentation and failure.

But are they good? Do they teach you how to perform the complex stick motions and a basic understanding of how to chain combos, or do they just tell you which button is attack, block, heavy attack and such?

[Chooch]

BlazBlue's Tutorial Mode and Persona 4: Arena's Lesson Mode starts with learning how to move and jump before anything else. What each attack button does, blocking, supers, etc. comes afterward.

Does that answer your question?

Edited August 25, 2012 by Chooch

[Scott]

sooooo.....

Anyone like Mortal Kombat?

[Chooch]

I do like Mortal Kombat actually!

Fun game. Ermac is the greatest.

[Chaos Warp]

BlazBlue's Tutorial Mode and Persona 4: Arena's Lesson Mode starts with learning how to move and jump before anything else. What each attack button does, blocking, supers, etc. comes afterward.

Does that answer your question?

Yes it does.

[Nepenthe]

Mortal Kombat 3 is best Mortal Kombat.

Anyway, I don't know if fighters are particularly more complicated than other genres, minus ridiculous things like submarine sims and such. The only one I've played extensively is Super Smash Bros, and even then I'm shit at it anyway, so I have no real frame of reference to comment in specifics. But I do think there's certainly an intimidation factor relatively unique to fighting games- in the effort that may be required to become merely competent at the game, the reinforcement of this idea that you need to get your ass handed to you time and time again- that you absolutely need to fail- to get better, and the notoriety of the fighting game community in general- that does scare people off, and I don't think it's entirely fair to chalk that up to laziness on part of the uninitiated.

I say this because it seems this complaint does crop up the most with fighting games. I don't hear too often of people being genuinely scared to even just try the platforming genre, or puzzlers, or even things like action-adventure games and RPGs based on a perceived high difficulty threshold alone. I suppose the only other genre I feel is comparable are modern FPS games, specifically online play because of how demanding and demoralizing that can be. But in my personal experiences, I even find that those are easier to get into due to relatively forgiving story modes (Hell, my 50 year old mom with oncoming arthritis has beaten Halo before), the fact that multiplayer tends to be team-based so you're not entirely alone in the wilds that are online arenas, and things like perks and different weapon schemes that soften the experience and allow even newbies to nab some kills, as cheap as those kills may be.

So all in all, fighting games are probably not anymore complicated than any other standard genre of game today. But I don't think the idea that it may be too complicated can only be chalked up to people being lazy. They are intimidating at first glance, and even intimidating to learn if the prime way to do so is to, well, lose a lot. I don't consider this a problem though, and neither should any fighting game enthusiast. Let's assume it was objectively true that fighting games are on the more difficult side of things? Who cares? Not every game is for everyone, and I certainly don't want to have some effect on the dumbing-down of the genre simply because I have a mental block and resulting disinterest towards them.

[LunarEdge]

I think some of the aforementioned "complaints" towards fighters are a bit exaggerated.

Of course if you're new to the genre in general, you will get wrecked if you immediately jump into any sort of competitive scene, be it in real life or online (despite ranking systems). However, difficulties can be changed when fighting any sort of arcade (aka facing the computer) in any fighter really. If you are getting whooped while just jumping into any fighter by the computer... I think common sense dictates that you lower the difficulty or even spend some time in training/tutorial/challenges.

Complex moves? How hard is it to press down and move your finger to forward on the Dpad and press the punch/kick button after? I know other games such as KOF and GG/BB have more "complex" movements, but it doesn't take long to learn them. I will admit, playing against friends or randoms online or IRL can make these "complex" movements a bit more intimidating to use since you have that added pressure, but I'm pretty sure you guys/gals get what I'm saying.

Also, the competitive scene can make playing fighters more intimidating, but if you're just learning/picking up a fighter for the first time, you shouldn't be so quick to jump in such a scene. Losing in a fighter is definitely a learning experience, but not the only way to effectively learn in a fighter. Trial and error is a learning basis for anything, not just fighters, shooters, or video games in general.

I do agree though... fighters aren't for everyone

Edited August 26, 2012 by LunarEdge

[Tornado]

Complex moves? How hard is it to press down and move your finger to forward on the Dpad and press the punch/kick button after? I know other games such as KOF and GG/BB have more "complex" movements, but it doesn't take long to learn them.

Eh... I've been playing SNK fighters in some form or another off and on for 15 years now, and I still can't Pretzel to save my life in a competitive setting unless I get lucky. There really are some moves and commands that are obtuse to the point of obnoxiousness.

I read somewhere that one of the big reasons that SFII worked is that you can visualize the moves with the joystick. A hadoken is QCF because that is the movements that Ryu's arms through go when he does it. A Sonic Boom is a charge back move because Guile puts his arms behind him before tossing it out. Ditto things like DP motions (you crouch down on screen before rising up with the punch) and even Zangief's stuff, which are difficult to learn to do consistently but understandable why they work the way they do when you do learn. Where I think the criticisms about complex moves become valid are for ones made up and implemented with little regard towards the on screen action or intuitiveness (like the ones in the nastiest of SNK fighters. Fatal Fury 2 and the first KoF game, for example). That isn't to say that I'd prefer ever game to be Garou'd, were almost everything is a QCF or DP motion; but making the motions intuitive to the on screen action does seem to be an important factor in lowering the barrier to entry.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Gilda

[LunarEdge]

Eh... I've been playing SNK fighters in some form or another off and on for 15 years now, and I still can't Pretzel to save my life in a competitive setting unless I get lucky. There really are some moves and commands that are obtuse to the point of obnoxiousness.

That's why I said in the competitive scene or playing others in general can make these moves more complex, it's understandable.

I do agree though, some movements of the characters themselves, especially in SF, did translate well to the actual commands the players had to put in.

Maybe if fighters started incorporating moving pictures in the command list to show how your fingers should move when it comes to directional movements would help a bit more.

[Silencer226]

Maybe if fighters started incorporating moving pictures in the command list to show how your fingers should move when it comes to directional movements would help a bit more.

I suppose that could work, but the way things are currently (at least in BlazBlue) I can still tell what they're talking about, it's just executing it properly that matters, at least for me anyway.

Actually thinking about it, an animated icon would be kind of distracting at least the way I see it.

[LunarEdge]

I suppose that could work, but the way things are currently (at least in BlazBlue) I can still tell what they're talking about, it's just executing it properly that matters, at least for me anyway.

Actually thinking about it, an animated icon would be kind of distracting at least the way I see it.

The idea was for when you access the command list. Maybe make it a separate option, kinda like SFxT and it's option to make the commands seem more "simplified" in the command list (no I'm not talking about the easy input gem commands). I can't really see how moving icons can be distracting to the player when the game is ultimately paused.

[Silencer226]

The idea was for when you access the command list. Maybe make it a separate option, kinda like SFxT and it's option to make the commands seem more "simplified" in the command list (no I'm not talking about the easy input gem commands). I can't really see how moving icons can be distracting to the player when the game is ultimately paused.

I totally didn't read the part where you said they'd be in the command list only.

Edit: So... my timing is complete shit. Challenge 10, fuck you hands for not being quick enough and going all derpy when you do manage to get part of this shit right.

I can get it now but the rest of that shit is fucking hard, I'll nail the dash cancel to a 6A but then these fucking hands of mine will spaz out of control to go into a jump cancel then a 2C and even when I get that going into a dash to 2B makes me think WTF. Yeah, yeah... practice... *sigh*

Edited August 27, 2012 by Noel Vermillion

[LunarEdge]

^That happens to me as well at times.. hands not responding the way I want them too mid-combo. I've lost so many rounds by simply having a brain-fart mid combo and dropping it. I usually don't do too many of the challenges, as they are kind of impractical to an extent. I usually do challenges just to learn timing, possible chains and etc.

I usually don't have any combos premeditated when I play fighters too, I usually do combos on the fly.

[Kuzu]

Combos are really fucking hard when they're not engraved, because when you get one part you brain fart on the rest of it. I find it easier to practice parts of the combo then string it together.

[Silencer226]

Combos are really fucking hard when they're not engraved, because when you get one part you brain fart on the rest of it. I find it easier to practice parts of the combo then string it together.

I do that, but my brain still goes "oh shit now I have to do this, FUCK!". This is going to take some getting used to, either that or screw challenge mode and make up my own shit.

[Chooch]

Challenge mode is good for learning a few solid combos for any given situation and to learn how your character's gatlings and/or combos work, but if you want the most optimal stuff then it'd be better to look elsewhere.

For BlazBlue specifically, Dustloop's your best bet.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Chooch

[killemoff]

Combos are something you just have to beat into submission, aka, repeating them so much that you'll know then instinctively, and be able to do them mechanically, without much thought.

To give you an idea of how some pro players train combos, i've heard that Justin Wong doesn't leave Training Mode without doing a new combo 100 times consecutively without missing.

TL,DR: Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice!

[LunarEdge]

Combos are really fucking hard when they're not engraved, because when you get one part you brain fart on the rest of it. I find it easier to practice parts of the combo then string it together.

I should reiterate... I do have combos that are "engraved" into my very being in practically any fighter, I'm mainly talking new combos or ones I don't do too often. A lot of the combos I do now I just randomly came up with on the fly at one time or another. Sometimes thining on the fly can be very rewarding... or drastically horrible XD

Challenge mode is good for learning a few solid combos for any given situation and to learn how your character's gatlings and/or combos work, but if you want the most optimal stuff then it'd be better to look elsewhere.

Exactly what I was saying. There's a point in any fighter however, I believe where it just becomes impractical at a certain point/challenge. You know.. when you look at it and you go "who da f*** will do that in an actual match!?"

Edited August 28, 2012 by LunarEdge

[Chooch]

Execution has always taken pride in. If I really like a character and want to learn their combos, I learn them, no questions asked. I only really drop shit online or if I haven't played in a long time.