General Fighting Game Discussion Thread.

[Chooch]

Get in there, press buttons, Hell's Fang. Dash up 5C, Hell's Fang them into the corner. Buttons buttons, jump, buttons, Belial Edge, buttons. Do Dead Spike to catch rolls and people mashing.

That's all I did.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Chooch

[Kuzu]

NOW I KNOOOOWWWWWW, I bet you're friend thinks I suck doesn't he.

[Emmett L. Brown]

It may not be possible to decide for sure if fighting games are too complicated, but one constant I've observed is that absolutely EVERYONE who gets into fighting games get confused by players who can't match their playstyle.

"It's easy, you just [complicated special move], [AI exploit], [22-button combo] when [specific circumstance]! What's so hard about that?"

...and I don't think I can fault them for thinking like that. One game with a ridiculously long list of possible moves in a fight is Arkham City and I can do Perfect Freeflows and Max Variations easy as pie, but that's only because I only think of which move to use, not which buttons to press. Which is the thing with fighting games, it's really time-consuming to learn all the moves to the point where you don't need to remember the buttons anymore. I may not be too hard, and it may not be too complicated, but I will say fighting games take a long time to get competative at.

Which is probably not a bad thing.

[Chooch]

When you say a lot of moves do you mean special moves? There are plenty of fighting game characters that don't have a lot of special moves and are specifically designed to be easier than others. That's why characters like Ryu and Ken exist in the first place. They have very basic and easy to understand moves with much easier inputs than most of the cast.

In BlazBlue, the "Ryu" is Ragna the Bloodedge. In Persona 4: Arena, that character is Yu Narukami. In Soulcalibur, it's Mitsurugi, etc etc.

Even then there are other characters that aren't too hard as far as special moves go either. The character I play in Persona 4: Arena for example is Teddie. Teddie's not really a hard character to learn how to play.

He has three main special moves. The inputs to get all three of those special moves are 236 and 214; more commonly known as quarter-circle forward and quarter-circle back. These are the most basic special move inputs in 2D fighting games since they are simply a motion from down to forward or a motion from down to back. The only difference is just the button you press to get each one to come out.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Some fighters have character specifically designed to have less complicated move sets.

That's a good point, Chooch. Do you think maybe fighters should have the option to view the character list ranked by how good an overall player you need to be to be able to master them? Like, if you set the difficulty at "Easy" then there's a pop-up telling you which characters would be good choices for you to ease into the game.

[Kuzu]

That's a good point, Chooch. Do you think maybe fighters should have the option to view the character list ranked by how good an overall player you need to be to be able to master them? Like, if you set the difficulty at "Easy" then there's a pop-up telling you which characters would be good choices for you to ease into the game.

Well Persona has something like that, it tells you a character's ease of use as one of their stats, but it's not in- game. For me I tend to experiment until I find a character I like.

[Chooch]

That's a good point, Chooch. Do you think maybe fighters should have the option to view the character list ranked by how good an overall player you need to be to be able to master them? Like, if you set the difficulty at "Easy" then there's a pop-up telling you which characters would be good choices for you to ease into the game.

Soulcalibur V actually has charts on the character select screen showing every character's Ease of Use rating as well as stats like overall Speed, Range, Damage and Attack Rate. No kidding.

Soul is also the easiest modern day fighting game to learn on the market as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why more people don't get on it. I fucking love Soul. It's my favorite fighting game series.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Chooch

[Silencer226]

I feel like I've wasted my time trying to learn Mu-12, she really isn't good for the way I play which I've found out the hard way... Live and learn. *goes back to maining Noel*

PS: I sent you a friend invite Chooch. I'm going to see if I can learn someone else.

[Kuzu]

Isn't Mu like A- tier in CSE?

I've been playing Soul & Tekken a lot lately, they're actually pretty fun.

[Silencer226]

Isn't Mu like A- tier in CSE?

I've been playing Soul & Tekken a lot lately, they're actually pretty fun.

I have no idea what tier she is, but she's too advanced for me, can't get the hang of her for shit. I activate distortions when I don't want to, go into attacks I don't want to, and Noel just feels right for my style I think.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Noel Vermillion

[Kuzu]

Well Mu is something of a zoner soon.....

[Silencer226]

Well Mu is something of a zoner soon.....

Yeah I know, I suck at zoning, thought I could get the hang of it but by the time I lay out a stein and get my trap laid out I'm almost dead. Plus I think Noel is more fun, albeit spammy to some people.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Noel Vermillion

[LunarEdge]

I would go with Noel until you get Mu's zoning down a bit better. You don't throw the lazers out as much as you should. I need to get a 2nd and third character. I still suck with Makoto and I'm trying with Tsubaki to no avail atm

[Silencer226]

I would go with Noel until you get Mu's zoning down a bit better. You don't throw the lazers out as much as you should. I need to get a 2nd and third character. I still suck with Makoto and I'm trying with Tsubaki to no avail atm

Yeah I believe Noel is going to be my main, thought I'd try making it Mu but the way I want to play and how that characters supposed to be played are having a conflict at the moment. Tsubaki is a character I want to play with but haven't found time to squeeze her into training sessions, and I tried Valkenhayne, that just ain't happening at my current skill level.

Edit: And finally beat that challenge 7 for Noel, to think that thing gave me trouble when I first encountered it...

Edited September 1, 2012 by Noel Vermillion

[Kuzu]

I'm raising this topic from the grave to address a subject from the status updates earlier.

 

 

 

 

Soulcalibur hasn't had any customisation that isn't purely aesthetical for bloody ages.

 

The complaint exists because games don't have unlockables anymore and it makes the single player which a lot of people happen to enjoy feel empty and tacked on. People like unlocking stuff, finding secrets, and the like. People miss the rewarding feeling of completion actually meaning something

 

 

Question, have you even played any modern fighting game? Like at all, because this complaint doesn't make much sense if you haven't. Ok, games like Blazblue have an entire gallery of unlockables, for single player experiences. So what is this about "Games don't have unlockables" anymore.

[Silencer226]

I'm raising this topic from the grave to address a subject from the status updates earlier.

 

 

 

 

Question, have you even played any modern fighting game? Like at all, because this complaint doesn't make much sense if you haven't. Ok, games like Blazblue have an entire gallery of unlockables, for single player experiences. So what is this about "Games don't have unlockables" anymore.

 

To add on to that  there are still character unlocks and things of that nature. You also can get points built up from online multiplayer as well as single player to unlock things. And going through story mode also allows one to unlock art and shit like that. Guess I'm not really understanding this complaint? 

[MegasonicZX]

I don't know, ive never really liked most fighting games simply because they don't give enough incentive to play the single player (and unless its a game I care about the multiplayer won't matter much to me). Honestly while I will admit that I haven't played too many fighters recently (except for naruto) stuff like artwork and character color changes aren't enough to make me go through the single player and unless its a sound test then I could care less (granted the game has a good ost) and stages are redundant since they are basically all the same with different backgrounds, no effects, no gimmicks, no nothing (once again haven't played a modern day fighting game in a while so correct me if im wrong) all things that I think Smash bros. does better mostly because the stages all offer something new and unique and the characters all feel more worth it since not only are they characters that I actually care about but they are also characters that have a good bit of difference to each other. 

[Yuli Ban]

Oh wow, reading all this about ultra-specific moves for fighting games peaks my interest. I love convolution and VG skill. I just might check out summathese games now, thanks thread!

[Silencer226]

I don't know, ive never really liked most fighting games simply because they don't give enough incentive to play the single player (and unless its a game I care about the multiplayer won't matter much to me). Honestly while I will admit that I haven't played too many fighters recently (except for naruto) stuff like artwork and character color changes aren't enough to make me go through the single player and unless its a sound test then I could care less (granted the game has a good ost) and stages are redundant since they are basically all the same with different backgrounds, no effects, no gimmicks, no nothing (once again haven't played a modern day fighting game in a while so correct me if im wrong) all things that I think Smash bros. does better mostly because the stages all offer something new and unique and the characters all feel more worth it since not only are they characters that I actually care about but they are also characters that have a good bit of difference to each other. 

Things aren't limited to just artwork and color changes, those were just examples thrown out there. There can be character unlocks and just about whatever else a dev decides to throw in. Personally I prefer having a stage that doesn't interfere with the flow of the fight, that way each opponent is on equal ground. Being knocked off by some stages "uniqueness" is not fun. Now granted I have not played Smash in a while so I don't know if stage effects can be turned off or not, but my preference would be to have them not effect anything. As far as characters having a good bit of difference, I'm not sure if you're saying other fighters characters are "samey"  or not. I at least hope not, because each character in BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, Street Fighter, etc are each going to have their own uniqueness, well maybe excluding Ken and Ryu. 

[Kuzu]

I don't know, ive never really liked most fighting games simply because they don't give enough incentive to play the single player (and unless its a game I care about the multiplayer won't matter much to me). Honestly while I will admit that I haven't played too many fighters recently (except for naruto) stuff like artwork and character color changes aren't enough to make me go through the single player and unless its a sound test then I could care less (granted the game has a good ost) and stages are redundant since they are basically all the same with different backgrounds, no effects, no gimmicks, no nothing (once again haven't played a modern day fighting game in a while so correct me if im wrong) all things that I think Smash bros. does better mostly because the stages all offer something new and unique and the characters all feel more worth it since not only are they characters that I actually care about but they are also characters that have a good bit of difference to each other. 

 

Every single fighting game character is unique from each other, ever. This is a fundamental of fighting games in general. I know you said you haven't played a lot of fighting games, but unless all you have played is Smash and that alone, there is no way you could not know that. Stage gimmicks are just that, gimmicks. I understand the appeal of them when you're just goofing off with friends(Which goes back to the entire Multiplayer argument), but what do stage gimmicks add to a single player experience than without?

 

There's also the fact that, really, what else can you add to do in a game based around multiplayer for a single player experience? You do certain challenges, and beat certain missions and then what? What is the beneficial value beyond the fact that it is merely there.

[Tornado]

Character unlocks (especially obnoxious Smash Brothers levels of unlock requirements) in multiplayer-focused competitive games is simply bad game design. Games of that level don't have unlocks because of that.

[MegasonicZX]

Character unlocks in multiplayer competitive games are simply bad game design.

Not necessarily as long as you get a good amount of characters at the beginning but then again though that might just be me wanting to get a shiny new toy to use in a game.

 

Every single fighting game character is unique from each other, ever. This is a fundamental of fighting games in general. I know you said you haven't played a lot of fighting games, but unless all you have played is Smash and that alone, there is no way you could not know that. Stage gimmicks are just that, gimmicks. I understand the appeal of them when you're just goofing off with friends(Which goes back to the entire Multiplayer argument), but what do stage gimmicks add to a single player experience than without?

 

There's also the fact that, really, what else can you add to do in a game based around multiplayer for a single player experience? You do certain challenges, and beat certain missions and then what? What is the beneficial value beyond the fact that it is merely there.

I was mostly speaking from street fighter when talking about character differences since back when I did play it the characters felt mostly samey but then again I may have high standards for this sort of thing like for instance Sengoku Basara Samurai heroes has this nice cast of characters that all play incredibly different from each other yet it takes a certain degree of practice before you become completely comfortable with these characters not only because they all attack differently but the way how there attacks work can be something to get used to (and yes I know its not a fighting game but hear me out on this) technically this principle holds true in street fighter but to somewhat of a lesser extent since all the characters control the same but only have some different special techniques to memorize which in most cases really aren't too different from another characters.

 

Also, I don't see gimmick stages as something that can steal victory from a person, they're fun to play competitively on when you have to fight against the elements and win the fight mostly because it gives you more to do during a fight and isn't just you fighting a game another person but also trying to fight against a random element, its not something thats completely unfair, its just something you must overcome to achieve victory.

[Jin.]

I don't know, ive never really liked most fighting games simply because they don't give enough incentive to play the single player (and unless its a game I care about the multiplayer won't matter much to me). Honestly while I will admit that I haven't played too many fighters recently (except for naruto) stuff like artwork and character color changes aren't enough to make me go through the single player and unless its a sound test then I could care less (granted the game has a good ost) and stages are redundant since they are basically all the same with different backgrounds, no effects, no gimmicks, no nothing (once again haven't played a modern day fighting game in a while so correct me if im wrong) all things that I think Smash bros. does better mostly because the stages all offer something new and unique and the characters all feel more worth it since not only are they characters that I actually care about but they are also characters that have a good bit of difference to each other. 

 

I don't think you've played a lot of fighting games. Try the fighting games made by Arc; BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, Persona Arena, all of these games share a simple 1 on 1 fighting system with a variety of stages and characters. What a lot of people seem to forget is what exactly a typical fighting game is, and I'm blaming that on Smash Brothers, with it's overly simple system and falling off stages thing. It's why I often say that Smash Bros IS a good game, but not a good fighting game. Even games that used to use simple color swaps like Street Fighter have improved over the years, Street Fighter IV has a huge cast of different characters, and I'm sure TvTropes could write an essay about BlazBlue.

 

 

Not necessarily as long as you get a good amount of characters at the beginning but then again though that might just be me wanting to get a shiny new toy to use in a game.

 

Yes neccesarily. Boy, Kagura sure seems like a character I'd wanna main. Oh? You have to beat story to unlock him? Great. Gotta drag through the whole story before I can even get into the competitive scene.

 

 

I was mostly speaking from street fighter when talking about character differences since back when I did play it the characters felt mostly samey but then again I may have high standards for this sort of thing like for instance Sengoku Basara Samurai heroes has this nice cast of characters that all play incredibly different from each other yet it takes a certain degree of practice before you become completely comfortable with these characters not only because they all attack differently but the way how there attacks work can be something to get used to (and yes I know its not a fighting game but hear me out on this) technically this principle holds true in street fighter but to somewhat of a lesser extent since all the characters control the same but only have some different special techniques to memorize which in most cases really aren't too different from another characters.

 

Play SFIV.

 

 

Also, I don't see gimmick stages as something that can steal victory from a person, they're fun to play competitively on when you have to fight against the elements and win the fight mostly because it gives you more to do during a fight and isn't just you fighting a game another person but also trying to fight against a random element, its not something thats completely unfair, its just something you must overcome to achieve victory.

 

Because it's a fight between players. Not the environment.

[Kuzu]

I was mostly speaking from street fighter when talking about character differences since back when I did play it the characters felt mostly samey but then again I may have high standards for this sort of thing like for instance Sengoku Basara Samurai heroes has this nice cast of characters that all play incredibly different from each other yet it takes a certain degree of practice before you become completely comfortable with these characters not only because they all attack differently but the way how there attacks work can be something to get used to (and yes I know its not a fighting game but hear me out on this) technically this principle holds true in street fighter but to somewhat of a lesser extent since all the characters control the same but only have some different special techniques to memorize which in most cases really aren't too different from another characters.

 

Also, I don't see gimmick stages as something that can steal victory from a person, they're fun to play competitively on when you have to fight against the elements and win the fight mostly because it gives you more to do during a fight and isn't just you fighting a game another person but also trying to fight against a random element, its not something thats completely unfair, its just something you must overcome to achieve victory.

 

 

Even something like Street Fighter II gives all of the characters enough variation in more than just specials; characters like Ryu and Zangief have completely different styles of play even if they do share a similar input or two. They have different types of movement, different ranges on their attacks, and deal different amounts of damage. Saying they're essentially the same character because they have a similar input isn't a fair assessment.

 

And when you have a game that is based around multiplayer, is it not unfair that there is a random element that can cost you the entire match? Especially if its in a tournament when people do play for money, and thus higher stakes. Let's say you were playing a game of Smash at a tournament and you were in the finals, you and your opponent are deadlocked. But then the game decides to drop a Bob-omb right in your line of fire and you go careening off the stage and die and you lose the entire thing. How is that fair game design? You have no way of knowing when something will spawn that will kill you until its too late, and when something as big as money is on the line, yes it is kind of a big deal. Its not really overcoming anything because it is something you cannot expect or prepare for.

[MegasonicZX]

Even something like Street Fighter II gives all of the characters enough variation in more than just specials; characters like Ryu and Zangief have completely different styles of play even if they do share a similar input or two. They have different types of movement, different ranges on their attacks, and deal different amounts of damage. Saying they're essentially the same character because they have a similar input isn't a fair assessment.

 

And when you have a game that is based around multiplayer, is it not unfair that there is a random element that can cost you the entire match? Especially if its in a tournament when people do play for money, and thus higher stakes. Let's say you were playing a game of Smash at a tournament and you were in the finals, you and your opponent are deadlocked. But then the game decides to drop a Bob-omb right in your line of fire and you go careening off the stage and die and you lose the entire thing. How is that fair game design? You have no way of knowing when something will spawn that will kill you until its too late, and when something as big as money is on the line, yes it is kind of a big deal. Its not really overcoming anything because it is something you cannot expect or prepare for.

Good point on the tournament thing, I was mostly just talking about playing competitively with friends at home and as for the same character thing, sooner or later i'll try another fighting game cause like I said I haven't played one in awhile so I can't make a good solid argument on that.