General Fighting Game Discussion Thread.

[Silencer226]

My execution is getting better but my reaction to other players is extremely low, any tips, or just have at it until it becomes second nature?

Challenge mode has been very useful to me, didn't know I could pull off some of that stuff with Mu-12, she's going to be my main one day.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Noel Vermillion

[Kuzu]

I've seen a lot of GG videos, and I honestly don't see much of a speed difference, I mean I probably need to play Guilty Gear to really know, but I'm not seeing much of a difference,

As for throws, they're kind of a pain in the ass to escape, so I don't blame you for that.

As for stick layout:

I find the layout

ABC

D

Much easier than the default, it just feels more natural

[Emmett L. Brown]

I played Street Fighter 2 ages ago. No, Street Fighter 2 period. Not Turbo, not Hyper, not Alpha, not HD. The vanilla one. In arcades. Yeah, it was a while ago. Aaaaand then I didn't play any fighting games at all with the intent to win until I tried out Skullgirls a few months ago.

At some point between those two the learning curve had become a vertical cliff. I had to go online to find the moves, then go back online to figure out how I was supposed to do them right. Then back online AGAIN when I kept getting my ass handed to me on normal difficulty.

I think these games would be a lot more approachable if we didn't have every single new fighting game naturally assuming that you've been playing fighting games for years. It's like a shooter saying "What? You don't know how to circle strafe? Well, then you can forget being able to beat these mooks here on level one." or an RPG saying "What? You don't know that healing spells hurt undead? Then you can forget about beating the second boss"

It's not just that knowing the tricks of the trade are required for you to get good at fighting games; you have to know all that stuff by heart to be able to play the games at all.

So, yeah. I think they're too complicated.

[Chooch]

Skullgirls is a really fucking awful example because it is literally the only traditional fighting game on the market that doesn't have in-game move lists.

But what it does have is an incredibly detailed and very robust tutorial mode to teach the basics of not only Skullgirls itself but fighting games period. If you're unable to grasp things after being given stuff like that, I don't know what to say to you.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Chooch

[Chaos Warp]

Yeah, fighters need way better tutorials. I'm just trying to get into the genre with MVc2 until I can rent the more accessible sequel (UMVc3), and you kinda have to figure it our for yourself.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Zero

[Urban Flow]

Ever since I picked up MvC 2 for the dreamcast. Then Guilty Gear came around and I started playing that more seriously and juggled between the 2. I love SF III 3rd Strike though, I need to do some practicing. Lately I have not gotten to play too much MvC2, though GG Accent Core Plus I believe is coming onto XBLA & PSN this October so imma get back into playing it. I was absolutely disappointed with MvC3. I was so hype for that shit too. WHY. haha. Been playing a lil BlazBlue but I much prefer Guilty Gear anyways.

[Kuzu]

Yeah, fighters need way better tutorials. I'm just trying to get into the genre with MVc2 until I can rent the more accessible sequel (UMVc3), and you kinda have to figure it our for yourself.

Ya know, you have an internet.

Seriously, if this was the nineties I could understand that complaint, but we're in 2012, our resources are far more vast than they've been ten years ago, yet people still cannot learn the basics of fighting games? I fail to understand the logic here.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Lady Soniko]

i think what makes fighting games complicated is when people discuss their battle strategies, it's simple if you're heavily into these things but if you're relatively new to advanced fighters then yes it can get complicated hard to follow through with.

the fact people abbreviate everything in to much shorter words i.e. Low Punch = LP High Kick = HK 3/4 clockwise on the analogue = quarter back turn

something as simple as "pull back and low kick becomes some form of whack algebra " QBT + LK "

i'm fine with those sorts of things, but when playing skullgirls in the training lessons the whole "Super Cancel combo" shit was just confusing me until i looked it up in detail on the internet.

[Emmett L. Brown]

But what it does have is an incredibly detailed and very robust tutorial mode to teach the basics of not only Skullgirls itself but fighting games period. If you're unable to grasp things after being given stuff like that, I don't know what to say to you.

Well, that's really the point, isn't it? The fact that fighting games NEED an extremely lengthy step-by-step tutorial before you can START playing the game. In most genres you learn by experimentation and failure. For a fighting game you basically have to pass a driver's test before you're able to stand toe to toe with the third (or second) tier opponent.

But, yeah, I'll totally agree that I would've had a much easier time with Skullgirls if it had a freakin' move list. I still enjoyed the game, but I won't forget having to spend a full day just learning how to play.

Maybe it's not too complicated for people who know the genre, but it's pretty damn hard to approach for anyone new to it who wants to try.

[Chaos Warp]

Ya know, you have an internet.

Seriously, if this was the nineties I could understand that complaint, but we're in 2012, our resources are far more vast than they've been ten years ago, yet people still cannot learn the basics of fighting games? I fail to understand the logic here.

Why should I have to rely on the internet just to learn how to play a game? I know I can use the internet, but no other genre of games requires internet research just to learn the basics. If you're gonna have a very complex game, then you need a good in-game teaching system.

[YeppersPeppers]

Fighting games aren't very complicated. It's more about one's level of determination for wanting to learn all the moves and be able to string them together into large ass combos.

Personally, fighting games don't appeal to me, but it's definitely not because I find it difficult to preform moves. I've played Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Tekken, MvC2 and 3, Skull Girls, and Persona 4 Arena and found that I just wasn't being entertained. I do love watching an intense match though.

[Chooch]

Well, that's really the point, isn't it? The fact that fighting games NEED an extremely lengthy step-by-step tutorial before you can START playing the game. In most genres you learn by experimentation and failure. For a fighting game you basically have to pass a driver's test before you're able to stand toe to toe with the third (or second) tier opponent.

You're kidding me, right?

I have been playing fighting games for a number of years. I didn't just start some three or four years ago. Back then I learned the basic fundamentals of the genre through experimentation and failure. I had to learn through experimentation and failure and I did. What makes anyone else any different?

I learned how to play fighting games years before there was all this nonsense like Simple Mode and auto-combos and X-Factor and fucking Tutorial Mode. You have infinitely more tools readily available to you than any of those people had in the past. You have the fucking internet for crying out loud! Websites like Shoryuken, Dustloop, Dream Cancel, 8WayRun, wiki pages for gameplay mechanics and single characters. Shit that can help you learn any fucking fighting game on the market, including older ones!

What is everyone's excuse? I'm sorry but I just don't fucking get it. I just don't get it!

Edited August 25, 2012 by Chooch

[Tornado]

The fact that fighting games NEED an extremely lengthy step-by-step tutorial before you can START playing the game. In most genres you learn by experimentation and failure. For a fighting game you basically have to pass a driver's test before you're able to stand toe to toe with the third (or second) tier opponent.

If (and only if) you want to jump directly into high level competitive play. You shouldn't expect to be able to start a game (and especially not a genre) and instantly be competitive with those who are dedicated and practiced in it. Such barriers to entry as you described exist in all genres, perhaps excepting party game things.

[Emmett L. Brown]

If (and only if) you want to jump directly into high level competitive play. You shouldn't expect to be able to start a game (and especially not a genre) and instantly be competitive with those who are dedicated and practiced in it. Such barriers to entry as you described exist in all genres, perhaps excepting party game things.

I'm not talking about high level competitive play. I'm talking about being able to stand a chance against the computer within ten minutes of pressing Start.

If you can think of any genre, any whatsoever, where a fresh player who hasn't tried it before, will be hopelessly unable to proceed further in less than 10 real world minutes, then I'll gladly fold my argument.

You're kidding me, right?

I have been playing fighting games for a number of years. I didn't just start some three or four years ago. Back then I learned the basic fundamentals of the genre through experimentation and failure. I had to learn through experimentation and failure and I did. What makes anyone else any different?

I learned how to play fighting games years before there was all this nonsense like Simple Mode and auto-combos and X-Factor and fucking Tutorial Mode. You have infinitely more tools readily available to you than any of those people had in the past. You have the fucking internet for crying out loud! Websites like Shoryuken, Dustloop, Dream Cancel, 8WayRun, wiki pages for gameplay mechanics and single characters. Shit that can help you learn any fucking fighting game on the market, including older ones!

What is everyone's excuse? I'm sorry but I just don't fucking get it. I just don't get it!

Wait, I'll erase my sarcastic reply, because looking at your post again it pretty much proves my point that fighting games are complicated enough that you NEED assist tools, the internet, and dedicated websites to get a handle on them.

Thanks

Edited August 25, 2012 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Tornado]

Can't imagine someone who has never played a modern FPS game with all of the idiosyncracies they are designed around (ie. regenerating health, need to use iron sights to hit anything, weapons don't to dick damage compared to melee attacks) will last particularly long in one of them.

And hell, a racing sim? You're pretty much fucked unless you enter the game with a large knowledge of automobiles beforehand.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Gilda

[Emmett L. Brown]

Can't imagine someone who has never played a modern FPS game with all of the idiosyncracies they are designed around (ie. regenerating health, need to use iron sights to hit anything, weapons don't to dick damage compared to melee attacks) will last particularly long in one of them.

That's a very good example. But do you think it would require as much research to get through the first few levels of that first-person shooter as it would to be able to defeat the first couple of AI opponents in a fighting game?

EDIT: Racing sims are even more complicated. Definitely. But maybe not too complicated. They're specifically trying to emulate real-world conditions, whereas a fighter...pretty much threw realism out the window with the Hadouken.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Chooch]

..No? Really, learning the basics of fighting game is not that difficult. It's just a blatant exaggeration.

Some people can grasp things quicker than others. Yeah sure, that is true. But that applies to everything. Not just fighting games, not just video games. Everything. You just have to keep at it.

Fighting games don't need to be simplified. They've already been simplified plenty over the past few years. You just gotta put in the time. It's only a waste if you make it a waste.

This is what I was talking about earlier. This defeatist attitude people come into the game with before they even start. If you haven't really learned fighting games before, you have to start with the basics like everyone else. No one is excluded from this rule. I learned the basics a long time ago. Back when it was harder to learn the basics.

You can't jump into a game and play for 5 minutes and expect to be a top level player. It just doesn't work that way. It's completely fucking unrealistic. You can't play any game for 5 minutes and expect to be extremely good at it.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Chooch

[Tornado]

That depends far more on how the game scales the opponent strength (and whether it cheats or not) than it does on how the genre itself is designed. You can get pretty far in SF II (and SFIV too, I suppose; though I can't really comment on it as well) just with basic punches and kicks, and "more" complex ideas like blocking and jumping would be picked up almost immediately.

Compare, say, an older Fatal Fury/Mortal Kombat game, where you'd beat one opponent and then get raped by the second.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Gilda

[Emmett L. Brown]

..No? Really, learning the basics of fighting game is not that difficult. It's just a blatant exaggeration.

You know what would be awesome? If you actually had an example of someone unfamiliar with fighting games who then picked up and mastered the basics in a short amount of time without undue frustration. That's exactly the sort of example that might win me over. Someone who hasn't played fighters for years. Someone who doesn't know what a half-circle forward move is.

Hit me.

That depends far more on how the game scales the opponent strength (and whether it cheats or not) than it does on how the genre itself is designed. You can get pretty far in SF II (and SFIV too, I suppose; though I can't really comment on it as well) just with basic punches and kicks, and "more" complex ideas like blocking and jumping would be picked up almost immediately.

Compare, say, an older Fatal Fury/Mortal Kombat game, where you'd beat one opponent and then get raped by the second.

I really like the sound of that. With scaling difficulty and gradually more complicated AI, I'd definitely say the fighting game wouldn't be too complicated for a newbie at all. Street Fighter II is the great example, because I really did get really far through that game with just basic moves because I was still a kid back then and fell back to button-mashing more often than not. Which is why I was so unprepared when Skullgirls expected me to have full mastery of all the basics and several specials by the second fight on Normal difficulty.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Silencer226]

You know what would be awesome? If you actually had an example of someone unfamiliar with fighting games who then picked up and mastered the basics in a short amount of time without undue frustration. That's exactly the sort of example that might win me over. Someone who hasn't played fighters for years. Someone who doesn't know what a half-circle forward move is.

Hit me.

Lol, that was totally me about 2 weeks ago, I'm still trying to perfect my execution though. :< I wouldn't say mastered though...

Edited August 25, 2012 by Noel Vermillion

[Kuzu]

Why should I have to rely on the internet just to learn how to play a game? I know I can use the internet, but no other genre of games requires internet research just to learn the basics. If you're gonna have a very complex game, then you need a good in-game teaching system.

Hence why shit like Tutorials, and Simple/Stylish mode exist. I think the problem here is that everyone expects to learn everything about the game in five minutes and become an instant expert, when it doesn't work that way. This might surprise you, but did you know you have to work hard to get what you want, and that it's not always going to be a cakewalk? This is generally a problem with most games nowadays, nobody wants to learn how to be good anymore so when a game that actually challenges them to think comes along, they label it as "too complicated, or too hard" which prompts the developers to simplify everything.

You know what would be awesome? If you actually had an example of someone unfamiliar with fighting games who then picked up and mastered the basics in a short amount of time without undue frustration. That's exactly the sort of example that might win me over. Someone who hasn't played fighters for years. Someone who doesn't know what a half-circle forward move is.

Hit me.

This was me less than a year ago, and I won't like and say I didn't get frustrated, but rather than blame the game for being "too hard" I sucked it up, and practice and got better.

[Tornado]

EDIT: Racing sims are even more complicated. Definitely. But maybe not too complicated. They're specifically trying to emulate real-world conditions, whereas a fighter...pretty much threw realism out the window with the Hadouken.

It doesn't only apply to sims. Give someone a Ridge Racer title and watch them struggle to get through the first turn.

No. Give someone Daytona USA. Pretty much as unsim-like and straightforward as possible for a racing game short of being an OutRun title. Set them up on Three Seven Speedway and automatic transmission with maximum time bonuses and easiest difficulty to take all of the extra variables out. And watch as they fail time and time again to negotiate the final corner on the track because they don't understand how the car works.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Gilda

[Chooch]

You want an example? Fine. You see this kid? This is my nephew. He starts middle school on Monday.

I play fighting games with him all the time. I wouldn't let up on him. I'd trash him. You know what he did? He learned, he got better, he adapted and he learned to beat me!

[Emmett L. Brown]

I guess my main problem with fighting games being very complicated isn't that someone who really wants to play it will take a while to master the game. The problem is that someone who picks it up just because they're curious and want to try out the genre is likely to get their ass handed to them immediatelly and consistently, find out how much they'll have to read and practice to get a handle, and decide to play something else instead.

Streeth Fighter 2 is the perfect example to me of a game that both complete newbs and experienced players can approach and have fun. You'll be well along the roster before you get your first Game Over even if you've never tried a fighter before. If it's true that Skullgirls is the exception, and that most fighters do indeed ease up on the player and let them make plenty of mistakes in the initial series of fights before they start punishing them, then that's fine. That's awesome.

You need to let the player experiment before you start raising the challenge bar.

You need Glass Joe.

[Kuzu]

I guess my main problem with fighting games being very complicated isn't that someone who really wants to play it will take a while to master the game. The problem is that someone who picks it up just because they're curious and want to try out the genre is likely to get their ass handed to them immediatelly and consistently, find out how much they'll have to read and practice to get a handle, and decide to play something else instead.

Streeth Fighter 2 is the perfect example to me of a game that both complete newbs and experienced players can approach and have fun. You'll be well along the roster before you get your first Game Over even if you've never tried a fighter before. If it's true that Skullgirls is the exception, and that most fighters do indeed ease up on the player and let them make plenty of mistakes in the initial series of fights before they start punishing them, then that's fine. That's awesome.

You need to let the player experiment before you start raising the challenge bar.

You need Glass Joe.

I see it as you don't get good if you don't get your ass kicked a few times, that's what training mode is for if you want to practice combos and shit, but when playing Arcade or against a friend I never ask them to hold back because then I'm not gonna learn anything if the opposition doesn't put up a fight. I got my ass kicked massively playing UMvC3 for the first time, but I didn't quit, I got better now I'm at least on par with most of my friends and I'm still learning shit.