Unpopular Sonic opinions!

[Kuzu]

Sonic's better than his worst, but he really isn't good yet. I mean, what's he done in the modern games that's got any real bite to it? Best I can think of is sneaking into Eggman's park in Colors, but that's high school punk at most, and entirely justified given it's Eggman and he was up to something.

Like you said, it's better than what he was before. The plots are so paper thin that he's hardly given anything to do other than spout one liners.

Mostly because they learned to embrace the absurdity of the character, I think. The only two real problems he's had are being overshadowed by some giant monster, and the games taking themselves too seriously, both of which have pretty much been taken care of. They've realized that Eggman may be the villain, but he's also a very strange and silly man, and they've taken that into account.

I know that, what puzzles me is how can they miss the mark on the protagonist's side so much, I mean they can grasp what type of character Eggman is and work from there to make something awesome, yet none of them can grasp even the basics of the heroes to make them even remotely interesting, it's annoying to say the least; it's like getting an A in math, but then tanking in every other subject.

Arguing about the series makes me seriously depressed as shit and just kills my Sonic fan buzz almost instantly, it really seems any facet of the series I like is terrible in some way so I just try to avoid those kinds of discussions all together.

I know that sounds fanboyish, but that's kinda how I feel.

Ditto, mang. Sometimes, these kind of discussions make me feel like I'm a lousy Sonic fan for actually liking some of the things being contested in them.

One of the things about growing up is realizing that not everything is good as it seems. No one here is being negative(except maybe Dio), but we're at least mature enough in that we can acknowledge the flaws the series has and tell ourselves "Hey, this is nowhere near as good as I thought it was". Do I still love the series and everything in it? Always have and always will. Will I acknowledge the flaws and call out the series on them? Indeed. I mean if the "fans" can't be honest about the series, who can?

[Chili Dawg]

Arguing about the series makes me seriously depressed as shit and just kills my Sonic fan buzz almost instantly, it really seems any facet of the series I like is terrible in some way so I just try to avoid those kinds of discussions all together.

I know that sounds fanboyish, but that's kinda how I feel.

I feel the exact same way sometimes. It's like I play the game and I'm like, "yeah woo this is awesome!" then I go on the net and it's like "NO!" It's why I avoid the serious game discussions for the most part.

[Diogenes]

Admitting you were wrong is hard, but that's exactly why it shouldn't be avoided. Not that you're automatically wrong just because people disagree with you; by all means, you should argue for what you believe. But don't shy away from that challenge (either in a discussion with someone, or in challenging yourself), and if you're proven wrong or convinced that you are wrong, accept it, and be better for it. If it can't stand up to scrutiny, it probably isn't worth having.

[Dr. Ivo]

• In moderation, I like Eggman doing heroic things. While he needs to be bad enough to remind us that he's the main villain, I also think he can be good enough to show he isn't totally heartless. I don't think Eggman having a softer side detracts from his status as Sonic's nemesis at all, and I feel that it rather makes him far more interesting as a fully fleshed out character.
  

I agree with this, Robotnik a.k.a. Eggman being purely evil is fine, but having him do heroic things occasionally is always interesting and puts his character into a much more vibrant perspective. It is sort of the same thing with me for all evil bosses, Bowser, and such, I always like the evil characters to work on the side of good every once in a while, albeit not so happy to do so. Take Super Paper Mario for example (Though it's not the best game, it has a good storyline) Bowser is forced to side with Mario, in order to save the world, only to save his own life. His other reason being if the world is destroyed, he would have no world to conquer, which is his main goal. So he sides with Mario for the time, they save the world and he goes back to being evil. Partial heroism in an evil character makes the character more likeable, because we tend to de-humanize (so to speak) evil people/characters, and see heroes as the best.

On another note I think Robotnik is a better name for him rather than the alias Eggman.

[Anti Alias]

How so? Not that I advocate Sonic trying to woo her or anything, you can still drop hints here and there without making anything official.

Neither am I, but I do kind of wish the relationship was touched on in a serious way if only for one game; a running gag is funny and all, but it doesn't exactly make for appealing characterization, especially if you get tired of the running gag.

How so? What would need to be changed that would make her "not Amy"? Aside from being less repellent, which would be a positive for everyone, in-universe and out.

You guys are asking how changing Amy changes Amy...

Guys, Amy has a comic relief role to whom her characterization is tied with.

The dynamics of the relationship of a character is dictated by its role, in this case, Amy and Sonic's awkward friendship is because of Amy's role as a comic relief for the series.

and the role is tied with the characterization, Amy is the complete opposite of a normal girl because she is a comic relief, that's why she is the crazy character she is, and has the voice she has, and her relationship with Sonic is awkward, at best, that's her role.

You guys are suggesting it would be a good idea to change Amy's relationship dynamics with Sonic, but you guys must be aware that this changes her role, and her characterization, and that changes everything, Taking Amy's clinginess, and abusiveness out of her makes her a character prone to play a love interest role. I'm not saying that it would be bad per se, but rather that this is not the role she was created for, it goes against her characterization and the role she was created for, she basically becomes another character.

There were a time that I used to believe that Amy's relationship with Sonic was the result of bad writing, but just later I came to understand that she was just playing the role she was created to play, they could change that, but it's an unrealistic (and a not very practical) expectation if you take into account how much limited character and relationship development is in this series, and how it's not needed anyway, only depth.

You can add depth to Amy's relationship with Sonic, without deviating from her characterization and her role, but for her to play a love interest role, with romance and such, you need a brand new Amy, with character traits ready for the role and the interactions that will demand it, current Amy does not support that without going through some massive character development, and we would have to change her character to the point she does not play the comic relief role anymore, nor have the traits that goes with that role, therefore she wouldn't be the Amy we know anymore, it's like a brand new character get it?

Edited July 18, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Kuzu]

You guys are asking how changing Amy changes Amy...

Guys, Amy has a comic relief role to whom her characterization is tied with.

That doesn't mean she can't develop into a better character.

The dynamics of the relationship of a character is dictated by its role, in this case, Amy and Sonic's awkward friendship is because of Amy's role as a comic relief for the series.

A character's relationship with another is dictated by their personality, not their role. That's a stupid way of looking at it.

and the role is tied with the characterization, Amy is the complete opposite of a normal girl because she is a comic relief, that's who she is

And that's why she sucks as a character nowadays.

You guys are suggesting it would be a good idea to change Amy's relationship dynamics with Sonic, but you guys must be aware that this changes her role, and her characterization, and that changes everything, Taking Amy's clinginess, and abusiveness out of her makes her a character prone to play a love interest role. I'm not saying that it would be bad per se, but rather that this is not the role she was created for, it goes against her characterization and the role she was created for, she basically becomes another character.

If *gasp* actually developing her makes her a better and more likable character, what's the problem? Seriously what are you trying to argue against, That's it's bad for Amy to actually develop likable and less annoying traits?

There were a time that I used to believe that Amy's relationship with Sonic was the result of bad writing

It is.

but just later I came to understand that she was just playing the role she was created to play, they could change that, but it's an unrealistic (and a not very practical) expectation if you take into account how much limited character and relationship development is in this series, and how it's not needed anyway, only depth.

So trying to make a character better is an unrealistic expectation, why the fuck should I even care about her then. You may as well kill her off with that attitude.

You can add depth to Amy's relationship with Sonic, without deviating from her characterization and her role, but for her to play a love interest role, with romance and such, you need a brand new Amy, with character traits ready for the role and the interactions that will demand it, current Amy does not support that without going through some massive character development, and we would have to change her character to the point she does not play the comic relief role anymore, nor have the traits that goes with that role, therefore she wouldn't be the Amy we know anymore, it's like a brand new character get it?

Anything can be done with a character without comprising who they are, that's kind of the entire point of writing character; for them to change, mature and grow into larger facets of their original characterizations. I mean it sounds like you're trying to put down character progression in this series and would be satisfied with Amy being as one note as she is now.

[Diogenes]

You guys are asking how changing Amy changes Amy...

Is a character so inflexible that any change makes them no longer that character? We aren't going to get much of anything of value out of this series' stories if no one is allowed to change.

Guys, Amy has a comic relief role to whom her characterization is tied with.

And I'm not suggesting that we get rid of this role. I'm saying we develop the characters and their relationship in a direction that recontextualizes it to work better.

they could change that, but it's an unrealistic (and a not very practical) expectation if you take into account how much limited character and relationship development is in this series, and how it's not needed anyway, only depth.

The series would benefit from developing the characters and their relationships a bit. I think part of the reason the cast has gotten so much hate is because they're such flat archetypes, there's nothing to make them resonate with people. I'm not expecting ultraheavy character focus, but they could stand to do more than they have been.

And how are we supposed to get depth without development, anyway?

[Anti Alias]

Anything can be done with a character without comprising who they are, that's kind of the entire point of writing character; for them to change, mature and grow into larger facets of their original characterizations. I mean it sounds like you're trying to put down character progression in this series and would be satisfied with Amy being as one note as she is now.

But that's the problem, in this series, characters, their relationships and their interactions are very constrained in the Status Quo, it's not me, it's the series writing!!!

Were this another series, that would be not a problem, By this point of view, ok, Amy might be doomed, but there are also times she can be a good character within the role they've created for her, like in Sonic Adventure Series or in Unleashed, the characters don't necessarily have got to change for them to be better, they only need to have their original traits fleshed out in a way that creates an interesting and endearing story. heck, she can team up with Cream for an adventure of her own, she can have a role in a story again, she can have some scenes that flesh out better her relationship with Sonic showing how much she is of a friend for him like in Unleashed, they can show how much of an impact her influence was to Shadow's outlook on life, or better yet she could create relationships with other characters! these all are possibilities that are open up for her that doesn't change her character at all.

If *gasp* actually developing her makes her a better and more likable character, what's the problem? Seriously what are you trying to argue against, That's it's bad for Amy to actually develop likable and less annoying traits?

the roles that are given to her... because the very writing of the series doesn't allow for much changing anyway! Status Quo is very strict here!!

Look, I'm not against showing Amy's likable traits and downplaying the most repulsive ones, by the way that's what I said it should be done, like in Unleashed, and that's how I portrait her within the limits of her own character, I would like a more likable Amy too, I don't like how Amy is written and I think she plainly sucks as she is now! what I am saying is that the probability of her role changing is very, very small, and that they should focus on writting Amy better, rather than turning her into another character with a totally different role that her characterization does not support, demanding character development that goes way beyond the Status Quo, much of said character development could go against the tone and the narrative focus of the series and that's exactly what they are not doing!

I am totally for making Amy a more likable character, but Status Quo is a bitch, and we have to work within it, what means in this series character traits and relationship dynamics does not change, it could suck or it could be for greater reasons, but that's just how it is. A way to keep the series going, break that and the narrative flow might be very screwed...

Basically all of this: http://tvtropes.org/.../StatusQuoIsGod

Edited July 18, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Diogenes]

but Status Quo is a bitch, and we have to work within it

No we don't! Fuck it! Throw it out if it's trash!

[Komodin]

But that's the problem, in this series, characters, their relationships and their interactions are very constrained in the Status Quo, it's not me, it's the series writing!!!

Well, clearly the solution here would be to eschew the current Status Quo because, as is, it's... for the lack of a better word... stagnant.

[Anti Alias]

No we don't! Fuck it! Throw it out if it's trash!

That's the weirdest part!! Now we're talking both about developing Amy and replacement characters, I realized that all of the development I should expect from Amy, from the character traits (speed, game play, maturity), to her expected relationship with Sonic.

Has gone to create Blaze.

fucking blame her!!!

that's an unpopular opinion i have by the way:

Blaze the Cat is a female lead replacement for Amy, a way to create a female character, strong, with more traits of a female lead. without changing the Status Quo and derailing Amy's character traits.

it begins!

Not only that, but I agree Silver is also a replacement character, but for Shadow rather! except that the execution (and the reception) of Blaze was better...

Edited July 18, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Diogenes]

Blaze is a very different sort of character from Amy. I mean, Amy always wears her heart on her sleeve, while Blaze's first story was about how she had walled herself off from other people and repressed her emotions.

And Amy wouldn't have to become like Blaze to make a relationship with Sonic viable.

[Anti Alias]

And Amy wouldn't have to become like Blaze to make a relationship with Sonic viable.

Just saying... is like she were another replacement character.... Kinda like shadow gets Knuckles rival spot (Knuckles got demoted to butt monkey, that sucks BTW...), Blaze gets Amy's close(st) female friend spot (although Amy is far more recurrent), Silver gets Shadows rival spot (although now both suck....), and so goes on...

Just taking a look at characters traits and the tropes they play, doesn't seem like they're doing it? different leads for different eras...

And if I remember correctly, Amy was having heavy emphasis in her character development prior to 2006, she was fast, strong, and more independent in Sonic Heroes... then suddenly a character that is vastly more competent in these matters appears, and has all the traits you would expect from the main female lead of the series... fast, strong, powerful, realistic voice and personality, very, very, close relationship with the damned main character of the damned series, with use of love tropes in scenes in debut.

too suspicious if you ask me, she is a fucking replacement character.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Kuzu]

But that's the problem, in this series, characters, their relationships and their interactions are very constrained in the Status Quo, it's not me, it's the series writing!!!

Then how about we fucking throw out the status quo? Because as it is right now, it fucking sucks.

t

he roles that are given to her... because the very writing of the series doesn't allow for much changing anyway! Status Quo is very strict here!!

Once again: Fuck. The Status Quo this series has. It is currently a boring piece of shit filled with overly pretentious stories with completely one and two dimensional characters who have no drive, no passion, or any goals. Nobody learns anything, relationships do not grow. It fucking sucks, and it's not something that we should be advocating for this series to have.

Amy's current role is shit; She has no depth, no likable traits, and she only exists as a walking gag character that is the worst possible role a character can be in; nothing but a walking gag and nothing more, and that shit needs to change.

Just saying... is like she were another replacement character.... Kinda like shadow gets Knuckles rival spot (Knuckles got demoted to butt monkey that sucks BTW...), Blaze gets Amy's close(st) female friend spot (although Amy is far more recurrent), Silver gets Shadows rival spot (although now both suck....), and so goes on...

Characters having overlapping traits isn't anything new nor is it going to stop. I doubt Blaze was meant to be a replacement for Amy considering they have two completely different personalities, and have two completely different purposes.

Just taking a look at characters traits and the tropes they play, doesn't seem like they're doing it? different leads for different eras...

Amy was introduced as an admirer of Sonic, in which she eventually became one of the main characters and strived to earn Sonic's affection through her own efforts.

Blaze was introduced as a person who sealed off her emotions due to her own feelings of loneliness, and eventually mellowed out after learning the meaning of friendship.

How, in what way are these two alike other than being girls who or may not have a thing for Sonic?

Edited July 18, 2012 by The Batman

[Takashi Iizuka]

My unpopular opinion is that Sega should make a Sonic Adventure 3! Screw the haters I and many others would love the saga to continue!

[Anti Alias]

How, in what way are these two alike other than being girls who or may not have a thing for Sonic?

to be blunt?

yes.

like pretty much a response to people's claims of Amy's suckness.

Although Blaze's massive mary-sue-ness seems to be fruit of another thing......

the role for the princess of Sonic '06 for example seems to be a good explanation...

just take a look at Amy, she is a hedgehog like Sonic, she is pink in contrast to Sonic's blue boy, she is fast not like him, but still fast, has the hots for Sonic so obligatory love interest implications, this is practically the minnie mouse formula for creating a female lead.

But then there is her role, Amy has the very basic traits to create a female lead for a kids series, now, you know, people, public in general, sees romance in fiction wherever they can, it's like a primordial desire, So it's natural for the writers to fulfill the wish trowing in some romantic implications for the characters, but instead of making her playing the love interest role straight, they decided to avert it, the result is Amy's current characterization, they gave her the comic relief role instead and now we're stuck in Amy's one note characterization and relationship dynamics with Sonic, now Amy is good part annoying, has a bad portrait of relationship with the main character, what makes her a lot less "liked" by the general public, let's say... and have had limited character and relationship fleshing out bar recently in Sonic Unleashed, and has not have been portrayed with her most likable traits from what I can tell.

yeeah, that sucks... now with Blaze:

Lavender fur with very feminine overall design, almost as fast as Sonic, down to earth, realistic portrait of emotions and personality in contrast to Amy, realistic voice, better use of screen time for character development, better use of screen time for fleshing out of relationship, portrayed to have a more intimate relationship with the main character, straight use of the love tropes (therefore a love interest by the book, no YMMV here) only female character capable of going super, massive spotlight in debut (Sonic Rush, she is in the cover), more narrative focus (two games, with her saga, the whole Sonic Rush Series) things are rather, different with her...

She is also very fitting for the female lead of the series, all of the traits, suggests the development of a lead, the development we were starting to see with Amy, before the modern era.

It's like they were trying to fix things... I don't know if I'm the only one who sees that, but she seems clearly to be made to play a more realistic role of a female lead than Amy, not that Amy will be scrapped, but these are the traits of a character with a very important role if you ask me...

It's like they were going to complement Amy with a character that could play roles that she couldn't play... she can play a dramatic role (with emphasis on emotional storytelling) that is closely related to her relationship with the main character, something I don't see fitting for Amy... something very close to the subplot of Sonic Rush...

As I can't see SEGA risking altering the Status Quo of the series, that's exactly how I see Blaze... the Shadow to Amy's Knuckles.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Komodin]

Although Blaze's massive mary-sue-ness seems to be fruit of another thing......

Er... how, exactly, is Blaze a "Mary Sue?" Please provide an answer that's more substantial than her being a competent female character.

[Kuzu]

Thinking about it, a reboot honestly doesn't sound too bad at this point; it'd be the perfect opportunity to create a stable and workable continuity in this series, reintroduce characters in less arbitrary ways, actually developing those characters with proper traits and giving them purpose, and not having things stagnate. It sounds a lot better than trying to salvage the current mess of a continuity.

to be blunt?

yes.

like pretty much a response to people's claims of Amy's suckness.

Although Blaze's massive mary-sue-ness seems to be fruit of another thing......

the role for the princess of Sonic '06 for example seems to be a good explanation...

.....What the fuck are you talking about?

Edited July 18, 2012 by The Batman

[Solkia]

Amy is useless and needs to gtfo

Blaze isn't useless and.... should gtfo as well.

/contribution

[Stritix]

I would love a reboot. This would give them a chance to make a new gameplay style that hasn't been the exact same for 4 years.

[Solkia]

Honestly, I don't think a reboot would do either good or bad to the series.

The only thing I can think of that would concern me about a reboot is that I'd never see true 3D Knuckles gameplay that isn't hunting for rocks.

[Tornado]

I've never fully understood how "Mary Sue" even applied to canon storylines. Maybe wacky fan goggle-tinted ones like Chronicles, but "regular" stories made by the people who normally make them?

Edited July 18, 2012 by Gilda

[Anti Alias]

Er... how, exactly, is Blaze a "Mary Sue?" Please provide an answer that's more substantial than her being a competent female character.

Don't worry, I know she is not a Mary-Sue by the definition, I am very aware of that actually.

She has what people could call mary-sue-ish traits for her substantial competence above all of the female characters in the series, kinda like Tiara from Sonic X-Treme, a character made to fit spot on on the female lead role with lots of positive traits.

fast for no reason, very powerful, not unattractive in design (as far as complementing the overall character design of the series goes), love interest on debut, etc... with no prior fleshing out or development, she just happen to have all of those, that's why people tend to label characters like that as a Mary Sue.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Kuzu]

I've never fully understood how "Mary Sue" even applied to canon storylines. Maybe wacky fan goggle-tinted ones like Chronicles, but "regular" stories made by the people who normally make them?

Well fans need a weird to bash they're most hated character so..

Don't worry, I know she is not a Mary-Sue by the definition, I am very aware of that actually.

She has what people could call mary-sue-ish traits for her substantial competence above all of the female characters in the series, kinda like Tiara from Sonic X-Treme, a character made to fit spot on on the female lead role with lots of positive traits.

fast for no reason, very powerful, not unattractive in design (as far as complementing the overall character design of the series goes), love interest on debut, etc...

Yes, because everyone knows a female can't be competent and beautiful on her own merit, no she needs to be broken, bitter, or "earn" her status.

[Tornado]

She has what people could call mary-sue-ish traits for her substantial competence above all of the female characters in the series, kinda like Tiara from Sonic X-Treme, a character made to fit spot on on the female lead role with lots of positive traits.

There are only really two other recurring characters in the series anyway, and one of them has problems with her character that far predate Blaze's inception.

And hell, half the things you described fit Rouge nearly as well as they do Blaze, if not better.