Unpopular Sonic opinions!

[Phos]

I never had a problem with them being the final boss as much as the fact that it tends to totally undermine Eggman's ability as a mad scientist. It always bothered me that Dr. Eggman, being such the mad evil genius he is, is constantly so helpless to these massive monsters. It makes any of his credibility as a big-time villain seem heavily tampered.

Honestly, I love ST's random monster-of-the-weeks. They're so cheesy and crazy that they're lovable, in a sense. I just wish they'd make a twist where Eggman suddenly takes control of it and both of them rock it out as the Big Bad. Or something like that. I dunno. Just as long as it doesn't consist of Eggman siding with Sonic, or being blown away without a chance.

They did that in Generations. All that happened was a bunch of homing shots.

I'd say the problem withe the Biolizard is that the boss doesn't have any effect on the characters other than them needing to fight him. Had he not woken up right at the end no one would be any the wiser that he even existed.

Oh yeah, the monsters of the week. I like the monsters of the week. They're all designed in such a wacky and distinctly-Japanese manner and have all sorts of different motivations ranging from a primal need to destroy everything to retribution for the sins of the past. Their arenas can be waterlogged cities, the sky and space, or freaking alternate dimensions, and a lot of them have kinetic and energy attacks like laser beams and fire swords and eggs and things. They're like legendary Pokemon gone wild. On this front alone, I found them more interesting than Eggman for the final boss, nor did I ever agree with the thought that they are any more predictable than Eggman considering it's rarely any big surprise what will happen whenever Eggman takes the reins of a machine to fight you at any point in the game. I don't lose sleep over their utilization.

It certainly didn't help their case that they were all terrible boss fights. Maybe it's how they tend to look like any given giant MMO boss but I don't share your fondness with respect to their designs. I do find that how much I enjoy a boss conceptually tends to have a lot to do with what it's like to fight, so there's that.

One interesting MoTW boss was Metal Overlord/Metal Madness. First they did a bait and switch where they swapped from Eggman to Metal Sonic (with that really dumb design), but then they turn that into a giant monster that doesn't really have anything to do with the villain you've been dealing with up until now. Interestingly, two recent very popular games suffered from these same problems, nested spoiler ahead:

Arkahm Asylum and Bioshock both suffered from this

when they both turned their respective overarching villains into giant muscly versions of themselves that only bore superficial things in common with the villain that you'd known. Much like Metal Madness, you beat them in what amounts to an environmental puzzle.

[Pawn]

From a narrative point of view I've found all MotW to be rubbish aside from Chaos and the Biolizard. The reason I take little issue with the Biolizard is because it was an instrument of Gerald's posthumous will, much like giant mechs are for Eggman, and as such needn't really possess any character. It could have done with a tad more foreshadowing as well as some idea of exactly where it teleported from (!?) though. Solaris and Gaia failed to interest me because they were simply pure evil. Although the characters (well, Shadow) could actually interact with him, Mephiles did little to make Solaris interesting (and wasn't the least bit recognisable once combined with Iblis anyway, it lacking even his voice). There are many reasons I don't appreciate Metal's transformation in Heroes, but Phos has pointed out some above.

For me it's just not interesting to fight these kinds of enemies, especially considering we have had much better in the past.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Lungo

[Nepenthe]

@ Phos: Well, if you don't like the bosses on account of what they're like to fight, that's a completely different matter innit? I was primarily disagreeing with the notion that they're "too predictable" in comparison to Eggman. No final boss at this point is unpredictable on any broad scale. Tossing Eggman the reins for Colors was a breath of fresh air in that we hadn't seen him in this role in a 3D game, not that he would give us anything out of the ordinary of a machine with silly patterns and an obvious glowing weak spot. If anything, with all of the hype surrounding his return, I was expecting far more and was subsequently disappointed with the mediocrity of it all, especially when I simply could look back on the last game and get a final boss that was far more challenging and interesting on a conceptual level. If Nega Egg Wisp and Time Eater's the best Eggman can do, suffice to say I want random Eldritch Abominations back.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Nepenthe

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd say the problem withe the Biolizard is that the boss doesn't have any effect on the characters other than them needing to fight him. Had he not woken up right at the end no one would be any the wiser that he even existed.

Except Rouge did foreshadow the Biolizard earlier with a newspaper(?)/research document on the prototype when Shadow confronted her about to steal the Chaos Emeralds. Just something to point out.

Edited June 2, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Scar]

Except Rouge did foreshadow the Biolizard earlier with a newspaper(?)/research document on the prototype when Shadow confronted her about to steal the Chaos Emeralds. Just something to point out.

Problem was, that it existed only as a really crappy picture and was referred to as "Project Shadow". Other than that single piece of forshadowing, the Biolizard; for all intents and purposes, came out of nowhere.

Whilst there did exist some kind of foreshadowing, Phos is right. The remaining characters would never have known it existed if it hadn't woken up. If there were stronger hints of the Project Shadow Prototype, still existing - still alive, somewhere, it would have added to the tension. The characters would have to worry about not only Eggman and Shadow, but this unknown entity, which would later be revealed as the Biolizard.

There didn't even need to be much foreshadowing. Stuff like heavily damaged equipment, claw markings and the like within the levels, or in cutscenes. Maybe even a few old documents that are discussed by the Dark side characters, which reference the prototype and hint at it still being alive.

Later Shadow himself could have hinted at something else finishing the job should he fail or something to that effect.

[azoo]

True; I see what you mean, and I certainly wouldn't be adversed to that kind of a twist. But then again, I've always felt that Eggman's high IQ stacked against his own grievous miscalculations and bad habits inherently served to undermine him anyway whether or not Cthulu was in play. The best bits featuring Eggman have never really featured his demise at the end, because we all know his demise is going to be had due in part to some huge oversight on his part: rather, Eggman feels best when he's winning most of the time and serves as a constant obstacle through the course of a journey, when Sonic has had it up to his own head with him and has to really dig his heels to get the job done. So yes, while Eggman is able to break in a beast in Generations versus getting blasted by one in Adventure, I find the latter to be a better display of the character overall.

I guess so, but I don't like that Eggman seems to be a minor threat. He may be a bit bumbling and makes tons of oversights, but that doesn't mean he should goof at everything.

Also (answering both you and Phos here), wasn't Time Eater something of Eggman's from the beginning? Either way, it seemed that he just found some energy and then used it in a robot of sorts, and then he had full control of it for the whole game. It's not the same as trying to have control of it, failing miserably due to miscalculations, and then SUDDENLY breaking through with a trump card and controlling the Big Bad. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of.

(Also, best signature. )

Heheheheh :V

[Nepenthe]

Problem was, that it existed only as a really crappy picture and was referred to as "Project Shadow". Other than that single piece of forshadowing, the Biolizard; for all intents and purposes, came out of nowhere.

Whilst there did exist some kind of foreshadowing, Phos is right. The remaining characters would never have known it existed if it hadn't woken up. If there were stronger hints of the Project Shadow Prototype, still existing - still alive, somewhere, it would have added to the tension. The characters would have to worry about not only Eggman and Shadow, but this unknown entity, which would later be revealed as the Biolizard.

There didn't even need to be much foreshadowing. Stuff like heavily damaged equipment, claw markings and the like within the levels, or in cutscenes. Maybe even a few old documents that are discussed by the Dark side characters, which reference the prototype and hint at it still being alive.

Later Shadow himself could have hinted at something else finishing the job should he fail or something to that effect.

The one cut scene- both the dialogue between the characters and its implications and the picture- lays the groundwork for the Biolizard just fine and is all that is necessary. In fact, it's even more foreshadowing than we got for the last Emerald activating the ARK's crash course. Anything more than that would've either been fairly obvious and run the risk of ruining any and all tension of what was coming as has happened with every other 3D game- it's never any secret who the final boss will be- if not ruin a few story points or been nonsensical.

Claw marks around the levels? Why? Biolizard was sealed away well before Shadow was even born and then reprogrammed as a failsafe. Why would something as dangerous as the Biolizard have free reign of any of the ARK levels we get to see? Why would the colonists have even left any damage behind, especially when it's easy to assume GUN was on their butts about it? Also, why would the cast need to know and anticipate it when the whole point of Shadow's scheme was to keep every facet of the ARK's crash course a secret, including the residential guard dog and secondary facilitator of the end game event?

I guess so, but I don't like that Eggman seems to be a minor threat. He may be a bit bumbling and makes tons of oversights, but that doesn't mean he should goof at everything.

Also (answering both you and Phos here), wasn't Time Eater something of Eggman's from the beginning? Either way, it seemed that he just found some energy and then used it in a robot of sorts, and then he had full control of it for the whole game. It's not the same as trying to have control of it, failing miserably due to miscalculations, and then SUDDENLY breaking through with a trump card and controlling the Big Bad. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of.

Whenever Eggman decides to take on Cthulu and turn it into a house pet, he is always going to seem very minor in comparison because... well, I mean, it's Cthulu. xP

And I don't know what he did with the Time Eater. I didn't think it was energy considering it had a face, but rather some benign monster that just so happened to be chilling out where he was flung to. I kind of feel sorry for it; it was just minding its own business and Eggman kidnapped it (somehow) and turned it into a clockwork Heartless with Tourette Syndrome.

Anyway, I like your idea as well, especially since it'd probably lead to an interesting procession of events for a final boss. You fight this monster going wild, but then Eggman comes back and seizes control. If Sonic Team would be clever enough to recognize the damage you did beforehand, perhaps Eggman goes into overdrive with its abilities or even forces an evolution you didn't know the monster had.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Problem was, that it existed only as a really crappy picture and was referred to as "Project Shadow". Other than that single piece of forshadowing, the Biolizard; for all intents and purposes, came out of nowhere.

I'd say it's more like Chekhov's Gun than "came out of nowhere" because implying the latter practically contradicts its foreshadowing.

One could also say it was more of the point than only a few of the characters were aware of the prototype in the same sense that only a few were aware of Shadow involvement before his actions got him more attention in-universe or that no one was suppose to know that Gerald programmed the Ark for a crash course to earth except Shadow until the final story.

Look at it this way: if there wasn't any foreshadowing, it would be even worse because it's just some random monster that was thrown into the plot just for the sake of conflict, a.k.a. an ass pull.

Edited June 2, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Alice Twilight]

They did that in Generations. All that happened was a bunch of homing shots.

I'd say the problem withe the Biolizard is that the boss doesn't have any effect on the characters other than them needing to fight him. Had he not woken up right at the end no one would be any the wiser that he even existed.

When you say it like, it makes me wonder if any one had even been on the Ark Biolizard would've never woken up.

I can't tell what woke him up though. The chaos emeralds were only needed to power up the ark, but were they also needed for Biolizard to wake up? There's no justified reason to wake up a failed experiment

which they never explain why it failed

They should've been done with it.

[Scar]

The one cut scene- both the dialogue between the characters and its implications and the picture- lays the groundwork for the Biolizard just fine and is all that is necessary. In fact, it's even more foreshadowing than we got for the last Emerald activating the ARK's crash course. Anything more than that would've either been fairly obvious and run the risk of ruining any and all tension of what was coming as has happened with every other 3D game- it's never any secret who the final boss will be- if not ruin a few story points or been nonsensical.

Claw marks around the levels? Why? Biolizard was sealed away well before Shadow was even born and then reprogrammed as a failsafe. Why would something as dangerous as the Biolizard have free reign of any of the ARK levels we get to see? Why would the colonists have even left any damage behind, especially when it's easy to assume GUN was on their butts about it? Also, why would the cast need to know and anticipate it when the whole point of Shadow's scheme was to keep every facet of the ARK's crash course a secret, including the residential guard dog and secondary facilitator of the end game event?

Its just an idea.

I like the idea of events in the game being implied through stuff in the level, if not necessarily as some exposition in a cutscenes. I grant you my ideas weren't exactly brilliant but I'm sure someone could write that kind of stuff into the plot better than I could.

I mean the best example of what I'm trying to suggest, is the mural in Hidden Palace in S3K. It foreshadows the Doomsday Zone perfectly. Something in that vain (though obviously not a mural) of that being in the Ark stages for either side would have done just enough to reinforce the contents of that cutscene. I dunno, just things like big diagrams of the prototype (and indeed of Shadow) scattered around on the floor. Some torn and some burned. Some big computer monitors with information and additional images, with some of them shot up and damaged through gunfire as a result of the GUN invasion.

IDK. Obviously a lot of what I'm suggesting is practically impossible given that it was on the dreamcast, which would struggle to render textures high-res enough to be useable in such a context.

Yeah it probably isn't necessary given that there is a cutscene that discusses Project Shadow and whatnot, but having that kind of shit lying around on the Ark would do better to make it seem like shit went down aboard it. You know, something that suggests that it was once a pristine, sterile research colony in which something horrible happened.

Perhaps I'm overdoing it, I don't know.

[Nepenthe]

None of what you're saying would've been impossible for the Dreamcast to do. I'm pretty sure doing some simple projections or 2D planar mapping of some transparent images would've been enough to do that.

My point is that any of that kind of foreshadowing doesn't actually gel up with the narrative, instead creating questions outside of the scope of the actual foreshadowing itself and even potential plotholes. Ballistic damage from GUN's meddling would make sense albeit I doubt it'd be well seen if at all considering we never seem to venture into any areas that would be populated. But considering the Biolizard was a scrapped project, I don't see any reason for the remnants of the ARK's last days of being operational to have anything to do with it. At the most, it would be easier and more sensible to throw in things related to Shadow's development (like a Black Doom or alien image- how awesome would that have been as foreshadowing), but also redundant- we knew from the outset of the game he was a project anyway.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Burning Finger]

Talking of dialogue, I think it's great if the character(s) talk in-game. They used to do that a lot in Heroes and also other games had Sonic and Co talk about the stage, events, the game's plot or just something random while you played. In Generations, Sonic hardly says anything at all (not even in cutscenes...). I support talking characters. It makes them feel more like characters and less like hollow avatars to me.

Exactly! I loved how Sonic's "Wooos!" and what not while running through the levels of Unleashed, because thats exactly the kind of stuff Sonic would do. It just made him feel more like a character and not an avatar, like you said. I hated how Sonic was mute running through the levels of Colors and Generations, Sonic felt empty and it just didn't feel right.

Sonic needs to sound like he's having the time of his life running through the levels in the next game.

I don't understand why people hated that about Unleashed.

[sonfan1984]

I don't understand why people hated that about Unleashed.

Because it gets annoying fast. Everytime Sonic does an homing attack, etc he keeps screaming and he doesn't shut up.

[Xenos]

Honestly, after years of Sonic talking with his motor mouth, I don't expect him to shut up at all anyways.

[...]

Because it gets annoying fast. Everytime Sonic does an homing attack, etc he keeps screaming and he doesn't shut up.

Turn off sound effects then.

[sonfan1984]

Turn off sound effects then.

It doesn't annoy me that much that I want to turn all sound effects off in the game, too.

Edited June 2, 2012 by sonfan1984

[Nepenthe]

Turning sound effects off is even an option?

Anyway, in-level talking is something that can be done well. You just need to do a lot of it to make sure it doesn't become redundant for a player that's going to spend hours on your product. Sonic's hollers of joy in Unleashed's levels are awesome at first and refreshing considering how stale Jason's performances had been beforehand. But then you realize they keep occurring every single time you did the boost. Now think about how many times a novice to Unleashed will keep having to mash the boost button. Yeah. :|

[Kuzu]

-I don't mind the talking in the levels, the characters just hardly say anything worth listening to.

[Vertekins]

Turning sound effects off is even an option?

In Unleashed? Yep. The option to do it is on the Title Screen in the 360/PS3 version. But it doesn't seem to remove the windswept effect on the music when Sonic is boosting...

Meh, Japanese voice mode is far more tolerable. Sonic doesn't sound like a adrenaline-crazed idiot when he boosts or attacks enemies, he just sounds cute :>

[Your Vest Friend]

I prefer him to sound like more an adrenaline-crazed idiot than cute, that kinda fits more with his age and personality.

Edited June 2, 2012 by VEDJ-F

[Diogenes]

Any voice acting that's going to be repeated needs to be quick and unobtrusive in proportion to how often it appears. Having a big screeching "WOO!" every time you boost is not a good thing. Likewise, any kind of in-level conversation needs to be kept short because, even if it's only used in one part of one stage, you'll be hearing it every time you play that stage.

[SilentDoom]

Here's another one that's probably been brought up a couple of times already.

I much prefer the soundtracks of Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 to the soundtrack of Sonic 3&K. Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 have no tracks that I dislike, and the tracks are just so much more memorable to me (though I must admit, I have played Sonic 1 and 2 more than 3&K). Never really cared for Angel Island's or Hydrocity's acts. Love Marble Garden's. Carnival Night's rapes my ears. Love Ice Cap, Launch Base, Mushroom Hill and Flying Battery. Don't like Sandopolis' acts. Don't care too much for Lava Reef's or Hidden Palace's acts. Kinda like Sky Sanctuary's acts. Very much like Death Egg's acts. Love all the boss music and the special stage music. Oh and the multiplayer pieces are all pretty good too. But S3&K's ost is much more of a mixed bag than Sonic 1 or 2's.

Oh another thing that ticks me off is how Super/Hyper Sonic use the invincibility music for their theme instead of having their own theme like in Sonic 2. That music gets EXTREMELY repetitive extremely quickly, especially since the levels in 3&K are longer than in Sonic 2. Though to be perfectly honest, I don't really think Super Sonic should have one theme, but rather Super Sonic versions of level themes. Like the Speed Shoes or the boost versions of a couple of themes in Generations. Faster paced, higher pitched, more dynamic beats, stronger bass etc.

[Your Vest Friend]

Bean in the Archie comics just isn't that funny. Many praise him as one of the best and funniest characters in the comic because he spouts off random comments and is generally incompetent and stupid. I'm sorry, that's not funny, that's...stupid. His comments and actions just doesn't usually have enough context for it to be funny to me, it's just random. In any case, Ripper Roo pulled the insanity humour off better.

[Celestia]

Unpopular Sonic fandom-related opinion: the jokes made about the "Enjoy your future, it's going to be great!" line are not funny.

[---]

Unpopular Sonic fandom-related opinion: the jokes made about the "Enjoy your future, it's going to be great!" line are not funny.