Sonic's ideal characterization topic

[PandoloFox]

Dude, I quoted two people. The bullying remarks were addressed to danidido, not you.

 

Which raises the question of are you actually reading my posts?

You do get that it doesnt matter right? That your adressing me in the first place with disrespectfull comments like those will not make me want to read it too carefully. I may not have answered in a better way but i dish out the same medicine i recieve. Next time i advice you to not jump to conclusions because you so despretely need to tell someone something.

[Diogenes]

How can be so? I didn't see any emotions in SLW.

Really?

Really?

Really?

Really???

REALLY????

REALLY????

 

I swear I don't know where these complaints even come from sometimes.

[Mauro Fonseca]

You do get that it doesnt matter right? That your adressing me in the first place with disrespectfull comments like those will not make me want to read it too carefully. I may not have answered in a better way but i dish out the same medicine i recieve. Next time i advice you to not jump to conclusions because you so despretely need to tell someone something.

Anyways, ideal Sonic characterization, right?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxhMYk_xljQ

 

This, pretty much. For all characters involved. Which I feel what we have now is close enough, so hey, good job.

[TearForFear]

I didn't feel any emotions when Tails protected Sonic from Eggman in Sonic Colours, or when he was thrown in the capsule by mistake. There is no feeling, it doesn't keep you on "spikes", is just a mass of "try hard" scenes that, honestly, didn't work.

 

Call me crazy, but I felt emotions with those scenes.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

OKAY, so attempting to get stuff back on track...

 

This is actually the same as the post I made that revived this topic, but a bit more elaborated on.

 

I've looked back (to a degree, since I don't know all of the Sonic games that well) at Sonic's various adventures, and I've noticed something, namely that despite how much of Sonics (or how little depending on your point of view) character is on display in the games, he rarely changes as an actual individual, or despite being a generally friendly guy, never really seems too invested in the situation around him to some degree...

 

Then Lost World came around, and while we could debate till the cows come home about how well they did in regards to characterization and structure of the story, it did bring in something that I kinda feel was lacking about Sonic as a whole: that something was for once the result of his own actions (Unleashed aside, but he kinda shared that with Eggman, and it unfortunately didn't really go anywhere...which sucks), and that he felt more invested in the situation than he usually did.

 

Another thing that I kinda note is that a lot of the situations he is placed in tends to portray him as the correct guy ultimately, with the conflicting points of view offered by different characters either turning out to be always wrong, or in the event they aren't conflicting, don't ever really challenge his point of view. I guess what I am trying to say is that I kinda wish there were more scenarios in which his views, his character, and him in general were forced into decisions in which he can't simply use the philosophy he abides by to get through the problem, or makes him have moral difficulties since the situation makes it so all of his decisions have consequences...or something...

 

Ugh, if anyone of you can make anything out of my disorganized thoughts right now, then be sure to tell me what it is, because I am giving myself a headache trying to figure out my own thing ;_;.

[BabylonWave]

Really?

Really?

Really?

Really???

REALLY????

REALLY????

 

I swear I don't know where these complaints even come from sometimes.

Really? Really? Yes.

Show me where you found emotions in SLW. Real and not forced.

Call me crazy, but I felt emotions with those scenes.

I don't call you crazy, but in my opinion that game lacks of emotions.

[Diogenes]

On what grounds do you dismiss those scenes as "forced"? What scenes from previous games are not "forced"?

[Mauro Fonseca]

Emotions you don't like are still real. If what you mean is "none of those moments were written in an emotionally convincing way", I'm afraid that means you've never felt emotion at all in all 23 years of franchise

[Nepenthe]

You do get that it doesnt matter right? That your adressing me in the first place with disrespectfull comments like those will not make me want to read it too carefully. I may not have answered in a better way but i dish out the same medicine i recieve. Next time i advice you to not jump to conclusions because you so despretely need to tell someone something.

 

It does matter. If I quote multiple people in a post, it is for the express intent of making responses to things that each of those persons have said, not just a single person. The fact that you are taking every post that quotes you along with someone else as having only to do with you is your misunderstanding and yours alone.

 

You also can't complain about disrespectful behavior when you threw the first stone by ironically disparaging my literacy.

 

If you also want to continue being rude and combative, we can either take this to PMs and continue hashing this out, or you can continue being rude and combative here and receive a strike in this topic with a week's suspension on top of it. That is your ultimatum. You cannot come here and try to tell staff off. It hilariously doesn't work like that.

[BabylonWave]

On what grounds do you dismiss those scenes as "forced"? What scenes from previous games are not "forced"?

Since Colours, they are all forced. Don't you see how Sonic and Tails are pieces of wood than 3 dimensional characters?

No? Is it just me in this fandom that actually see Sonic and Tails different?

[Mauro Fonseca]

They were forced before Colours too. Please don't pretend the majority of the franchise isn't forced nonsense.

[Diogenes]

I think most people, and myself included, would say that Sonic and Tails are different in recent games. But I would say that they're better in SLoW than they were in a lot of games previous.

 

You still haven't given any reasoning for dismissing the emotions in SLoW's cutscenes.

[PandoloFox]

haha true i was a bit sarcastic to you for no reason and im sorry.

Anyways, ideal Sonic characterization, right?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxhMYk_xljQ
 
This, pretty much. For all characters involved. Which I feel what we have now is close enough, so hey, good job.

[BabylonWave]

They were forced before Colours too. Please don't pretend the majority of the franchise isn't forced nonsense

I don't prentend anything. The writing changed, and it influenced Sonic personaliy too.

[TearForFear]

Really? Really? Yes.

Show me where you found emotions in SLW. Real and not forced.

 

I thought Diogenes provided you a satisfactory response, but if you're still not convinced yet...

[Mauro Fonseca]

I don't prentend anything. The writing changed, and it influenced Sonic personaliy too.

Yes, but your argument is... well your first argument was pretending Lost World had no emotions, but Diogenes is talking about that. My point is your argument says the writing after Colours is worse since emotional scenes are forced, but the writing before Colours had its emotional scenes be equally forced. No matter how many times we see Maria being shot.

[E-122-Psi]

OKAY, so attempting to get stuff back on track...

 

This is actually the same as the post I made that revived this topic, but a bit more elaborated on.

 

I've looked back (to a degree, since I don't know all of the Sonic games that well) at Sonic's various adventures, and I've noticed something, namely that despite how much of Sonics (or how little depending on your point of view) character is on display in the games, he rarely changes as an actual individual, or despite being a generally friendly guy, never really seems too invested in the situation around him to some degree...

 

Then Lost World came around, and while we could debate till the cows come home about how well they did in regards to characterization and structure of the story, it did bring in something that I kinda feel was lacking about Sonic as a whole: that something was for once the result of his own actions (Unleashed aside, but he kinda shared that with Eggman, and it unfortunately didn't really go anywhere...which sucks), and that he felt more invested in the situation than he usually did.

 

Another thing that I kinda note is that a lot of the situations he is placed in tends to portray him as the correct guy ultimately, with the conflicting points of view offered by different characters either turning out to be always wrong, or in the event they aren't conflicting, don't ever really challenge his point of view. I guess what I am trying to say is that I kinda wish there were more scenarios in which his views, his character, and him in general were forced into decisions in which he can't simply use the philosophy he abides by to get through the problem, or makes him have moral difficulties since the situation makes it so all of his decisions have consequences...or something...

 

Ugh, if anyone of you can make anything out of my disorganized thoughts right now, then be sure to tell me what it is, because I am giving myself a headache trying to figure out my own thing ;_;.

This is why I thought Lost World was a big step, it may not be implemented perfectly, but compared to interpretations such as Sonic X and even the otherwise good Storybook series where Sonic is almost infallible in his ethics, and even a tad holier than thou about it, we get a case he was made to admit he screwed things up, and it was directly because of his trademark attitude.

 

I think a problem with pinpointing a good interpretation is due to the problem of getting this depth right. Sonic's 'like the wind' attitude is either something that makes righteous and more insightful than the other heroes (eg. X) or it makes him reckless and arrogant (eg. Satam). There is rarely an even ground where we see both the positives AND negatives. I can credit the games now for showing at least fairly developed cases of both sides of his personality. I just hope they keep the balance following this and he doesn't suffer the same oversimplification as the others.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

No, there's no console war, just facts.

More like an immature, and discriminatory statement, that clearly forgets its true identity as a bully all opinion, and a rude one to boot. Honestly it shouldn't need clarification reminders in the first place.

[Kuzu]

This is why I thought Lost World was a big step, it may not be implemented perfectly, but compared to interpretations such as Sonic X and even the otherwise good Storybook series where Sonic is almost infallible in his ethics, and even a tad holier than thou about it, we get a case he was made to admit he screwed things up, and it was directly because of his trademark attitude.

 

I think a problem with pinpointing a good interpretation is due to the problem of getting this depth right. Sonic's 'like the wind' attitude is either something that makes righteous and more insightful than the other heroes (eg. X) or it makes him reckless and arrogant (eg. Satam). There is rarely an even ground where we see both the positives AND negatives. I can credit the games now for showing at least fairly developed cases of both sides of his personality. I just hope they keep the balance following this and he doesn't suffer the same oversimplification as the others.

 

 

Sonic's the main character, essentially the face of the series. His characterization is honestly dependent on his interactions with the rest of the cast and is shaped because of that. So either, you have him stand out and naturally be better than most of the other cast(because being the main character, there has to be something special about him, otherwise why is he even the main character right?) or he is someone who learns by interacting with the other characters(Effectively means you have to give him flaws and have him screw up a lot to learn a lesson). It takes a truly skilled writer to balance this out, and considering how many people have written for this series through the years, you can see why Sonic tends to change a lot over the years while everyone else more or less stay the same and are allowed to develop more.

[BabylonWave]

Yes, but your argument is... well your first argument was pretending Lost World had no emotions, but Diogenes is talking about that. My point is your argument says the writing after Colours is worse since emotional scenes are forced, but the writing before Colours had its emotional scenes be equally forced. No matter how many times we see Maria being shot.

Okay, maybe not every games before colours were so full of emotions.

Personal opinion:

Maybe i can't even explain myself but what i mean too is that the stories since Colours are "empty" in narrative and emotion sense.

Generations is even worse, the story barely exists and the characters are...well, they couldn't be there in my opinion.

In Lost World, SEGA made me hate Sonic, he doesn't even think, he acts only, and also how we see, in the worse way. (When he kicked the shell away from Eggman and didn't even give a crap about Tails' through, as example).

Sonic Boom...is a big, fat meh, not out, don't know the full story but from the trailers, it will not sell ALOT.

 

With this, i stop answer with this thread.

[danidado]

 

Could you actually quote some of the things Sonic and Tails said to each other that you would consider disparaging, bullying remarks so we can get an idea of what you mean? As much as I have my problems with these games' narratives, Sonic and Tails being bullies to one another is hardly it, mainly because I don't see any actual evidence of this being true. They are played as good friends who joke around, towards Eggman, and to each other. There is never a joke made with the intent of targeting either friend or hurting their feelings. Hell, me and my absolute best friend of 12 years will call each other "slut." That's how much we trust each other, and it's why I lack the ability to see how what any of what Sonic and Tails said to each other comes close to bullying.

 

Seriously, pick out some actual quotes and scenes.

 

Dude, go back to page 7-8. I think I already explained my points there, there are also videos as proof. If you want more clarifications, please read and watch those, then, answer me back.

 

Thank you ! 

[Mauro Fonseca]

You've already been answered back.

That's how friends behave. Maybe not you and yours, but certainly mine and mine's or Nep and hers. We're together through thick and thin, but damn it if we're not going to have fun calling each other cockheads and threatening bloody murder through it all.

EDIT:

Advesonico, this might be a language problem. A game being void of story doesn't mean it's void of emotions, a game having its emotional scenes badly written doesn't mean it's void of emotions, etc.

[PandoloFox]

Okay to make a post thats a bit more relevent ill express my thoughts on how sonic should work as a character:

First of sonic is a bit cocky and has a lot of confidence in himself, he is not smug however and never tries to boast about his capabilities. He likes to be able to take care of matters by himself, this is why we see him say lines like *i hate to ask but can you take care of them* in Sa2. dont get me wrong hes not stubborn enough to get himself in danger, if needed he will ask for help. He likes adventure and challenge, this is why he smiles when an opponent draws near ( not in a i am awesome way but more in a lets test him out way if that makes sense to anyone ) Since he likes challenge he often taunts his enemies/rivals in a *lets do this* kind of way. He is kind to his friends and has a big brother relationship with tails. He is impatient and doesnt like to sit around, he is also the type that more easily gets angry when his friends are being hurt. 

Well i cant think of more for the time being but do feel free to add stuff

 

[Celestia]

The way I see it, the current portrayals of Sonic and Tails are, if anything, a lot less snarky with each other than a lot of best friends in real life, or fiction for that matter. I can't really think of any point where things got truly or overwhelmingly mean spirited between them.

 

But then again, I don't really get the complaints about Sonic being "mean" to Eggman and the D6, either, so...*shrug*

[Nepenthe]

Dude, go back to page 7-8. I think I already explained my points there, there are also videos as proof. If you want more clarifications, please read and watch those, then, answer me back.

 

Thank you ! 

 

I read your posts. You made a lot of claims, but you didn't actually substantiate them.

I'm asking you specifically to type up quotes verbatim, or to more easily link to us cut scenes, where Sonic and Tails are acting out of line, and to accompany this with criticism of their behavior so we can see it and analyze it for ourselves.

 

I'm not doing your work for you.

 

My apologies. I'm angry right now and jumping the gun. I found the posts in question. But the only thing you pulled out of them where two cut scenes where they rib each other, but you've not shown how what they said is actually meant to be deliberately insulting with the intent to hurt. You are looking at the insults (and the two scenes you pulled are barely insulting) in a vacuum instead of in a context where the speaker and tone actually have an impact on the meaning of the statements being made. I honestly don't see where the meanspiritedness is.

 

Everything else comes across as rampant mischaracterization of the situation at hand. Like, Tails is not a wimp for having trouble with a translator machine, which is not really his expertise. Meanwhile, he's crashed so many planes before Sonic Colors even came into being, which is the thing he's supposed to be prodigious at, yet this hasn't had much of an effect on how people who dislike the current direction view his characterization from the past.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Nepenthe