Sonic's ideal characterization topic

[PandoloFox]

Dude, my friend, don't you think you're taking it too far, dude? You seem to consider anything with jokes in it already ruined, my friend. Judging by your comments, my friend, character development can only happen if non-comedic, dude. Seems kinda extremist of you, my friend.

I have nothing against jokes but when the plot is the jokes i have a problem. I also already said that we havnt seen everything yet so im not saying this is 100 procent to happen. So no im not being exstreem, im being skeptical which i have all right to be.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I read the comics dude, so I can't see how you came to the conclusion, since the comics have all of that, WITH, better, less childish writing to boot. No where did I say I don't like anything with jokes, I don't like Colors, Lost World, because they are horribly written, go nowhere, and flat out lame.

 

Thank heavens I wasn't talking to you then. Do you and Pandolo act as a two-man group or can we talk to one specifically?

[Nepenthe]

Dude the introduction to the new villain was by making a joke... Eggman is spouting random funny lines like sonic smells.....Knuckles is portrayed as a muscle head... do i need to go on. The story my friend looks like colors shinannigans right now. we havnt seen everything so ill leave it alone but there is cause for alarm.

All of which goes in line with a long-standing tradition of 3D Sonic games having jokes in them. Literally, there is not a single console Sonic game- even Shadow and Sonic 06- which completely lacks joking. As a result, it is an extreme oversimplification to boil down comedy as indicative of Colors' plotting, which wasn't even the biggest problem with that game narrative-wise. 

 

The biggest problem with the game's plot is that it didn't really consist of any interesting events because Sonic and Tails were working unopposed the entire time, allowing plenty of cutscenes where they basically just stand around not doing much. The banter and joking was interesting in characterizing them as friends, but it didn't actually serve an action-adventure plot, and that's what Sonic games are supposed to be. Had all of the dialogue been replaced with standard, boring reiteration of what they were doing without any attempt at making the viewer laugh, it still would have been boring. Pinning every single problem with the new direction on jokes misses the point of why these games are divisive on a narrative front and goes completely against the tone of the franchise. We're not playing Tom Clancy games here.

 

 

They and their fans attached themselves to that, I did not specifically say "Nintendo makes light hearted games", so there's no way to read that as such, or you would have to wonder how I got my avatar.

 

They and their fans are not actually in this topic right now, so it's irrelevant to keep pointing to them as a scapegoat for the way people are reading your posts. Speak for yourself. You are the one who I quoted specifically making a point to qualify that a lighthearted direction was a Nintendo direction. It is literally in your post. And I'm not the only one taking umbrage with your posts on this vain either.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Nepenthe

[TheHeatSeeker0]

Who says this? The "whimiscal" part I could understand, in the sense that lots of fans (including...classic fans, actually!) lean towards that sort of thing, in terms of enjoying the surreal aspects of the Sonic universe. But I don't really see people asking for "childishness".

 

What exactly is "cool", anyway? What do you really mean by it? Because it seems to me it's a really vague concept, to the point where I'm getting the impression it's really just a buzzword in this conversation that translates to "I like these games and not those other ones".

- There not so much as asking Sonic to be childish, rather they promote it, especially after Colors came out, which is ironic because people blamed kids for Sonic's bad games because they happened to like Unleashed. The "whimsical" part, even then, Sonic was not all about being that specifically, rather taking those light hearted parts and over-blowing them to the point of importance, when in reality, the series was balanced, dark enough for kids, light enough for soccer moms.

 

-It's a vague concept to people who don't understand it, as you just admitted. The best way to explain it, in terms of Sonic, is that he had both light and dark elements, I.E., being balanced, and even when the games got darker over the years, Shadow's really the only guilty one of being too dark, but even then, there's not much to expect coming from a character like Shadow and his past, and the game itself is bought as dark as Jak2 or Ratchet & Clank titles before a Crack in time. One thing to say though, Even less cartoony games weren’t this epic.

The key is balance, and even with Shadow, Unleashed and on where getting lighter till it hit the other side of the spectrum with Colors.

A good example is looking at this trailer, and comparing it to Shadow and Colors. It's neither too dark, or too light, it's balanced, I.E., Cool:

[PandoloFox]

All of which goes in line with a long-standing tradition of 3D Sonic games having jokes in them. Literally, there is not a single console Sonic game- even Shadow and Sonic 06- which completely lacks joking. As a result, it is an extreme oversimplification to boil down comedy as indicative of Colors' plotting, which wasn't even the biggest problem with that game narrative-wise. 

 

The biggest problem with the game's plot is that it didn't really consist of any interesting events because Sonic and Tails were working unopposed the entire time, allowing plenty of cutscenes where they basically just stand around not doing much. The banter and joking was interesting in characterizing them as friends, but it didn't actually serve an action-adventure plot, and that's what Sonic games are supposed to be. Had all of the dialogue been replaced with standard, boring reiteration of what they were doing without any attempt at making the viewer laugh, it still would have been boring. Pinning every single problem with the new direction on jokes misses the point of why these games are divisive on a narrative front and goes completely against the tone of the franchise. We're not playing Tom Clancy games here.

 

 

 

They and their fans are not actually in this topic right now, so it's irrelevant to keep pointing to them as a scapegoat for the way people are reading your posts. Speak for yourself. You are the one who I quoted specifically making a point to qualify that a lighthearted direction was a Nintendo direction. It is literally in your post. And I'm not the only one taking umbrage with your posts on this vain either.

Cant people read, im saying that everything hasnt been shown yet so i will back of on it, im just expressing my worries so far.

[Diogenes]

Danidado may be a bit rough but many thinks that tails is breaking character and is being onedimensional. He is a gary stu with emotional problems, honestly its quite hard to point out what he is supposed to be since he is very inconsistent.

Tails was one dimensional before SLoW. All he did was stand back and support Sonic. SLoW actually gave him some depth, it gave him actual human feelings and flaws. The game actually had the balls to explore Sonic and Tails' relationship instead of just leaving it to be assumed.

[Kuzu]

Hey guys, remember when this this topic was about Sonic's Ideal Characterization and not whether or not we like the current direction of the series for umpteenth time in forever.

 

 

Can we talk about the topic please?

[danidado]

Do you know what a joke is?

I just...I don't get this complaint. It's such a massive, fundamental misinterpretation of what's going on, that I don't even know where to begin.

I'm not going to say that Colors, and to a lesser extent SLoW, don't have some bad jokes that fall flat, because they do. They pressed the Baldy McNosehair way past what little humor it had. The "random" translator jokes were embarrassingly bad. But you take this joke, this simple joke, and rather than seeing it as an expression of two friends close enough to make these kinds of jokes while trusting each other enough to know there's no malice intended, you twist it into them hating each other?

Do you not have friends that you joke around with like that? Have you never seen other people joking around like that? Or are you just being as stubbornly uncharitable towards the game as you possibly can?

 

Again, where's the consistency ?

stupid, because it's like the entire relationship of Sonic and Tails in Colors and onwards is all based on these stupid remarks.

 

Once or twice is OK. But Colors and Lost World (and somewhat that Gens) are all based this.

 

That's why they don't look like friends. They look like they're barely tolerating each other.

 

And yes, it might have happened to do so with my friends, but just once in a very long while. If this kind of bickering keep ging on and on, then the other guy is just an annoying selfish scumbag, and he has to knock this behaviour off. 

 

P.s: The fact that you called Lost World SLoW should presume that you didn't like it. Guess what ? Me, and a lot of people neither. And that game is proof that this nonsensical bromance between dumb selfish dudebro jock Sonic and cynical nerd dudebro-wannabe Tails is sick and can't work properly, without having them always bickering at each other. It's just butchering the characters personalities.

 

And neither did the writers of Boom seemed to have understood this, from what little I've seen (except for the preview, where FINALLY there was some real cooperation, instead of "See ya on the ground, Tails ! I don't wanna see ya crapping yo pants and spoiling my spotlight !" *shoves him into the elevator*)

[PandoloFox]

Tails was one dimensional before SLoW. All he did was stand back and support Sonic. SLoW actually gave him some depth, it gave him actual human feelings and flaws. The game actually had the balls to explore Sonic and Tails' relationship instead of just leaving it to be assumed.

I agree tails has been one dimensional for quite some time now, dont know if i would call Slow an improvement but he is expressing himself at least.

[Diogenes]

P.s: The fact that you called Lost World SLoW should presume that you didn't like it.

No, it's because I find it funny.

... instead of "See ya on the ground, Tails ! I don't wanna see ya crapping yo pants and spoiling my spotlight !" *shoves him into the elevator*)

This is the kind of willful misinterpretation that makes it impossible to take your complaints seriously. It's literally the exact opposite of what happens, but you insist on twisting it in the most negative light, because you already have a raging hateboner for the game. You're so far off base, that there can be no meaningful communication of ideas in either direction.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Again, where's the constistency ?

stupid, because it's like the entire relationship of Sonic and Tails in Colors and onwards is all based on these stupid remarks.

 

Once or twice is OK. But Colors and Lost World (and somewhat that Gens) are all based this.

 

That's why they don't look like friends. They look like they're barely tolerating each other.

 

And yes, it might have happened to do so with my friends, but just once in a very long while. If this kind of bickering keep ging on and on, then the other guy is just an annoying selfish scumbag, and he has to knock this behaviour off. 

 

P.s: The fact that you called Lost World SLoW should presume that you didn't like it. Guess what ? Me, and a lot of people neither. And that game is proof that this nonsensical bromance between dumb selfish dudebro jock Sonic and cynical nerd dudebro-wannabe Tails is sick and can't work properly, without having them always bickering at each other. It's just butchering the characters personalities.

 

And neither did the writers of Boom seemed to have understood this, from what little I've seen (except for the preview, where FINALLY there was some real cooperation, instead of "See ya on the ground, Tails ! I don't wanna see ya crapping yo pants and spoiling my spotlight !" *shoves him into the elevator*)

 

Why would you call the relation between a dudebro and a nerd sick

 

Why would you purposefully lie about the ending of Colours

 

Why would you assume that the minimal amount of bickering they've done means they're not friends

 

I don't know what to tell you without going into the disrespectful territory of "get some friends". Apparently you happen to have friends who don't do playful bickering. Fine.

 

Me and my closest friends, we more often call each other "idiotic animal" than "friend", and yet I doubt any of us wouldn't give a couch to stay/their blood to transfuse/whatever metaphor of being a good friend you want to use.

 

I mean here, let's use your standards as a test. Tell me if I have friends or my life is a lie.

 

We tried shoving laxatives on one of us' food

When prompted on a birthday to say good thigns about the anniversary guy, we could only come with "stubborn as a bull"

We regularly call each other animals, beasts, idiots, stupid-asses, tasteless morons, and plebs

And worst of all, we repeatedly try and screw up the one of us who is best at Mario Kart 8 by coordinating shell strikes.

 

Using the same amount of authority over "how friends behave" as you, I can now say you're the one who apparently doesn't have friends.

 

Or we can assume there's plenty of ways friends behave and Sonic's and Tails' is pretty natural. So much in fact you find them being written like this as early as 1994 in the UK novels.

[TheHeatSeeker0]

They and their fans are not actually in this topic right now, so it's irrelevant to keep pointing to them as a scapegoat for the way people are reading your posts. Speak for yourself. You are the one who I quoted specifically making a point to qualify that a lighthearted direction was a Nintendo direction. It is literally in your post. And I'm not the only one taking umbrage with your posts on this vain either.

Just because you aren't the only one doesn't mean you're anymore right, just that you aren't the only one who reads what isn't there, not to mention there have been other times where people understood what I said clearly, the understanding is that Nintendo and their fans do pride themselves in that direction, most other gaming companies usually being more balanced or for the mature crowd, and you can't really approach Sonic from the mindset of anything having to do with Nintendo. However, you are right, they have baring on the subject, however, it's a point that mindset does not work for Sonic, and that's how a lot of fans these days look at him, making a topic about his characterization a jarring topic on the net, especially when you have people looking at Sonic Colors and other modern titles.

 

Now, you and others may not being going off that mindset, so I'll try to digress from that point, and go back saying we should take the comics into account, since, most of Sonic's ideal characterization, lies in it. Yes, they have their flaws, but to look over them because it's not the games, especially with the way they've been handled, does not help in anyone's credit.

[Nepenthe]

Cant people read, im saying that everything hasnt been shown yet so i will back of on it, im just expressing my worries so far.

 

Haha, I can read perfectly fine. Don't be so condescending. Your impressions of Boom as you've seen it have nothing to do with your thoughts and comparisons to it to Colors, a game that has been out for years and one we can more easily discuss, the game I spent most of my response to you actually addressing.

 

Again, where's the constistency ?

stupid, because it's like the entire relationship of Sonic and Tails in Colors and onwards is all based on these stupid remarks.

 

Once or twice is OK. But Colors and Lost World (and somewhat that Gens) are all based this.

 

That's why they don't look like friends. They look like they're barely tolerating each other.

 

And yes, it might have happened to do so with my friends, but just once in a very long while. If this kind of bickering keep ging on and on, then the other guy is just an annoying selfish scumbag, and he has to knock this behaviour off. 

 

Could you actually quote some of the things Sonic and Tails said to each other that you would consider disparaging, bullying remarks so we can get an idea of what you mean? As much as I have my problems with these games' narratives, Sonic and Tails being bullies to one another is hardly it, mainly because I don't see any actual evidence of this being true. They are played as good friends who joke around, towards Eggman, and to each other. There is never a joke made with the intent of targeting either friend or hurting their feelings. Hell, me and my absolute best friend of 12 years will call each other "slut." That's how much we trust each other, and it's why I lack the ability to see how what any of what Sonic and Tails said to each other comes close to bullying.

 

Seriously, pick out some actual quotes and scenes.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

The banter and joking was interesting in characterizing them as friends, but it didn't actually serve an action-adventure plot, and that's what Sonic games are supposed to be. 

 

Ehhhhh to each their own. There's a lot you can do withSonic as characters, and just keeping him in the box of action-adventure seems short-sighted but i'm in a hurry see you later 8(

[TheHeatSeeker0]

Thank heavens I wasn't talking to you then. Do you and Pandolo act as a two-man group or can we talk to one specifically?

Sorry, my mistake, I didn't even notice his post, I saw yours after making a post, then refreshed the page after doing something.

[danidado]

I agree tails has been one dimensional for quite some time now, dont know if i would call Slow an improvement but he is expressing himself at least.

 

 

Definetely not an improvement. This is pure bastardization and twisting of the character for the sake of a botched plot. But then again, there was already a Flanderization of Tails (and basically everybody else) going on since Heroes.

[BabylonWave]

Sonic's ideal characterization is obviously the Adventure era one. Sonic had a three dimensional characterization, then he went down to two dimensional with the lasts games. This because the recent writing behind games are total flat and empty of emotions.

I hardly doubt that newcoming fans will love the characters as much as we do, simply because we know Sonic in the older way.

I would put a kid in front of a tv with SLW, he plays the game and watch cutscenes. What he will understand of Sonic and Tails? He would probably describe them as buffons. I can't even imagine a kid have smile with "LOL, BALDY MC NOSE HAIR". I dunno, when i was a kid long time ago, i didn't even like un-clever jokes, you can imagine now.

For finish honestly, SEGA better scrap Pontac, he doesn't fit Sonic, he can be good somewhere else where a cartoon/game whatever is made purely of simple and jokes stuff. I don't deny in older games had jokes too, but they were "controlled" and (in my opinion) better.

[TheHeatSeeker0]

Ehhhhh to each their own. There's a lot you can do withSonic as characters, and just keeping him in the box of action-adventure seems short-sighted but i'm in a hurry see you later 8(

But when you have a series meant for a large audience that's meant to be cool and action-packed, you don't simply, just start making his games/other media, without it. You call it a box, but it's perfectly good one.

 

And yes, I know this comment is not directed at me, but I'm use to being on forums where any and all posts are answered to.

 

 

 

Sonic's ideal characterization is obviously the Adventure era one. Sonic had a three dimensional characterization, then he went down to two dimensional with the lasts games. This because the recent writing behind games are total flat and empty of emotions.

I hardly doubt that newcoming fans will love the characters as much as we do, simply because we know Sonic in the older way.

I would put a kid in front of a tv with SLW, he plays the game and watch cutscenes. What he will understand of Sonic and Tails? He would probably describe them as buffons. I can't even imagine a kid have smile with "LOL, BALDY MC NOSE HAIR". I dunno, when i was a kid long time ago, i didn't even like un-clever jokes, you can imagine now.

For finish honestly, SEGA better scrap Pontac, he doesn't fit Sonic, he can be good somewhere else where a cartoon/game whatever is made purely of simple and jokes stuff. I don't deny in older games had jokes too, but they were "controlled" and (in my opinion) better.

Good thing you brought up kids, Heru Sankofa actually played Lost Mind with a kid. Hilarity ensued.

http://conflictingviews.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/what-one-kid-thinks-of-sonics-lost-mind/

 

"After more blood, sweat, and tears, we FINALLY got passed it, and went on to fight Zik. This fight was pretty tedious, but what tickled me was when Runt was going on about “Why does the old guy use fruit? I thought he was a ninja!” That he got from the low quality cutscenes they managed to shove into the handheld version. Blurrier than a youtube video."

[Diogenes]

Sonic's ideal characterization is obviously the Adventure era one. Sonic had a three dimensional characterization, then he went down to two dimensional with the lasts games. This because the recent writing behind games are total flat and empty of emotions.

There are plenty of things you can say against SLoW's story, but "empty of emotions" is not one of them.

[PandoloFox]

Haha, I can read perfectly fine. Don't be so condescending. Your impressions of Boom as you've seen it have nothing to do with your thoughts and comparisons to it to Colors, a game that has been out for years and one we can more easily discuss, the game I spent most of my response to you actually addressing.

 

 

Could you actually quote some of the things Sonic and Tails said to each other that you would consider disparaging, bullying remarks so we can get an idea of what you mean? As much as I have my problems with these games' narratives, Sonic and Tails being bullies to one another is hardly it, mainly because I don't see any actual evidence of this being true. They are played as good friends who joke around, towards Eggman, and to each other. There is never a joke made with the intent of targeting either friend or hurting their feelings. Hell, me and my absolute best friend of 12 years will call each other "slut." That's how much we trust each other, and it's why I lack the ability to see how what any of what Sonic and Tails said to each other comes close to bullying.

 

Seriously, pick out some actual quotes and scenes.

oookay, if your gonna adress my thoughts on colors than shouldnt you quote that one instead, my impressions of boom has everything to do with boom, that your not able to detect sarcasm in a simple line like *colors shinannigans* is not my problem. i was adressing what i saw on boom and it looked like the jokes had the focus. the fact that i said that il back of is proof that these were only temporarly concerns.

Again you havnt read my comments, where did i say that they were bullying anyone? i suggest you go back and look at my comments friend you just might have mistaken me for someone else.

[BabylonWave]

There are plenty of things you can say against SLoW's story, but "empty of emotions" is not one of them.

How can be so? I didn't see any emotions in SLW. I'm not blind yet, i swear. Maybe it depends on people's taste.

I didn't buy the game but i saw on youtube the cutscenes, and it felt empty.

[Mauro Fonseca]

And yes, I know this comment is not directed at me, but I'm use to being on forums where any and all posts are answered to.

 

I think you missed the point of why I said I wasn't talking to you.

 

 

 

Sonic's ideal characterization is obviously the Adventure era one. Sonic had a three dimensional characterization,

 

Was your point here really to just make a pun :V

 

I kid, I kid.

 

You're illuding yourself, though. Unleashed easily has Sonic being as tri-dimensional as Adventure. Although frankly I think most portrayals can easily be seen as the same portrayal- with the exceptions of things like him going a bit too hyper in Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic's stayed well consistent through the games.

 

 

 

Good thing you brought up kids, Heru Sankofa actually played Lost Mind with a kid. Hilarity ensued.

http://conflictingviews.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/what-one-kid-thinks-of-sonics-lost-mind/

 

>Lost Mind

What amazing scathing critique. Give the man an award. Here's a suggestion- write "The Angry Video Game Nerd did the cussing-out angry critique man role better" on it with a sharpie.

[Nepenthe]

oookay, if your gonna adress my thoughts on colors than shouldnt you quote that one instead, my impressions of boom has everything to do with boom, that your not able to detect sarcasm in a simple line like *colors shinannigans* is not my problem. i was adressing what i saw on boom and it looked like the jokes had the focus. the fact that i said that il back of is proof that these were only temporarly concerns.

Again you havnt read my comments, where did i say that they were bullying anyone? i suggest you go back and look at my comments friend you just might have mistaken me for someone else.

 

Dude, I quoted two people. The bullying remarks were addressed to danidido, not you.

 

Which raises the question of are you actually reading my posts?

[BabylonWave]

 Was your point here really to just make a pun :V

 

I kid, I kid.

 

You're illuding yourself, though. Unleashed easily has Sonic being as tri-dimensional as Adventure. Although frankly I think most portrayals can easily be seen as the same portrayal- with the exceptions of things like him going a bit too hyper in Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic's stayed well consistent through the games.

I'm not talking about Unleashed, it is the last game i really enjoyed of the Sonic franchise but i agree that he had the adventure characterization.

I'm more talking about of games where Pontac put his hands on. Playing Sonic Colours gave me a weird feeling than Unleashed, it felt a bit different from what i was used of Sonic. I'm not talking of gameplay, but the story itself, is forgetable.

[Celestia]

It's a vague concept to people who don't understand it, as you just admitted.

  

Haha, that's cute.

 

The best way to explain it, in terms of Sonic, is that he had both light and dark elements, I.E., being balanced, and even when the games got darker over the years, Shadow's really the only guilty one of being too dark, but even then, there's not much to expect coming from a character like Shadow and his past, and the game itself is bought as dark as Jak2 or Ratchet & Clank titles before a Crack in time.

 

 I agree with your general point that things need to be balanced, but considering not everyone's going to agree on what tropes or concepts are "too dark" or "too light" or whatever, it's not exactly that simple. There are people who think Sonic Adventure 2 is too dark, which I can't wrap my head around, but it's not the end of the world...

 

...wait. *refreshes page* Ah, I just remembered the reason I was so annoyed in the first place; you using that extremely shitty "stereotypical gamer being mad about popular opinions" site you linked to earlier to back up your points. 

 

P.s: The fact that you called Lost World SLoW should presume that you didn't like it.

Even I've referred to it that way and I'm a fan. It's just a silly nickname among the fanbase. :/

 

"See ya on the ground, Tails ! I don't wanna see ya crapping yo pants and spoiling my spotlight !" *shoves him into the elevator*)

I've seen a lot of incredibly misinterpretations of a character's actions, but this really takes the cake. Like...how much do you have to want to hate something to misread it that badly?

 

 

 

...

 

My ideal Sonic characterization is somewhere between the Adventures and Lost World. Put him in more situations where he can actually show off that temper they go on about so much and actually let him talk to his friends, and I'll be happy. It'd be interesting to see him bond with more of his friends, I feel the interaction between him and Tails has been spot on in the past few games and I'd like to see the current writers' take on his interactions with other characters.