Sonic's ideal characterization topic

[Celestia]

He has some, but even still, he's not dynamic enough or written well enough to be, and ever since unleashed, the series has been getting pushed more and more into the lighter(Nintendo) side of things. Also, I wanted to post this article that brings up Sonic's coolness:

http://conflictingviews.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/sonics-great-light-and-dark-debate/

There might be a point in that article, but the person writing it is pretty obviously an asshole. From the constant use of the R-slur, "Lost Mind", yet another article on that site casually using the word "rape" in the context of being mad at video games, and the general mocking of people they disagree with. If someone can't back up an argument without being an edgy asshole about it in an attempt to sound cool and rebellious, I see no fucking reason to listen.

Also yeah, there's definitely some hints (and by "hints" I mean "could they be any more obvious") of console war bullshit everywhere on that site. The writer(s?) are painting themselves as being more rational than those darn other Sonic fans/gamers, but it's undermined by...almost everything they say.

[Diogenes]

What happened to the little modest boy genius in search of recognition ?

This is like half of what SLoW was about, but I guess because he didn't handle everything with saintly patience and respect, he's total scum.

[Kuzu]

Problem is that they're nothing else but this. When this continuing bickering and pissing each other off is the only thing shown, as Pontac and Graff have done from Colors through Lost World, they don't even look like friends anymore.

 

Sonic is the stereotypical dumb school jock/bully, devoid of any of the good traits he had from SA through Unleashed/Black Knight.

 

And Tails is like one of those emarginated cynical nerds who have sided with the school jock, because it's on the winning side. But he's ready to backstab his "friend"/boss as soon as his ego is threatened.

 

Since when Tails was so odious and self-righteous ? He's like a little blend of the worst traits of Pontaff Sonic and Eggman.

 

What happened to the little modest boy genius in search of recognition ?

 

 

Tails takes a bullet for Sonic, and Sonic makes sure Tails escapes before he does in Colors alone. I'm not going to argue that Warren and Graff's writing are really my cup of tea either, but saying Sonic & Tails are just constantly being pissy with each other with no real friendship between them is just...flat out wrong, as evidence proves to the contrary.

[DBZHedgy]

This is like half of what SLoW was about, but I guess because he didn't handle everything with saintly patience and respect, he's total scum.

Tails' entire character is built around his high patience. That and his sheer admiration for Sonic.

Due to Tails' self-righteousness that he never displayed ever before, he gets angry at Sonic for something that didn't even matter to begin with, because they have worked together with Eggman on several occasions without fussing about it. 

 

I would expect TAILS to be the one doing the damage control, like simmering down Sonic and Eggman from fighting, but for some reason... that isn't the case.

And then what erks me the most about Tails' character in that game is that he acts like he's waaaaaaay smarter than Eggman, when previous adventures have shown quite the opposite.

 

But honestly at this point Tails has more character than Sonic does (even though it contradicts past entries in the series)

[Mauro Fonseca]

Complaining Sonic has no character in regards to one of the games that most focused on his character feels a bit... forced.

[DBZHedgy]

Complaining Sonic has no character in regards to one of the games that most focused on his character feels a bit... forced.

Yea you're right, he does develop, it just isn't that interesting since the lesson he learned was already a part of his traits in the past.

Are you sure you're not just trapped in some strange ghost of the console war? If we're going to start arbritarily going "IT'S LIGHTER BECAUSE IT'S PANDERING TO NINTENDO INSTEAD OF ME", I'm afraid the implications are a bit sad (you know what else is on Nintendo's side? quality games).

To be quite honest here, as much as I dislike the story for lost world, it plays the same level of darkness that older sonic titles like adventure and adventure 2 held. So I wouldn't say they're dumbing it down to nintendo standards, but the feel of it, to me at least doesn't seem like it fits the story's level of edginess. It seems as though they were pushing the Goofy standards more than the serious ones, which doesn't quite make sense considering the stacks at hand.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

What are "Nintendo standards"? Are we referring to the ability to balance light and dark, or are people just trying to shill the green eyes tier, childish notion that Nintendo is supposedly dumbed down for children?

[PandoloFox]

About Colors:

To say that this game focus too much on the jokes is an understatement, the whole story is a stand up comedy with sonic as our comedian and tails as the helping hand.The story also likes to repeat itself a lot, the fact that eggman is capturing aliens is hammered down on you like no tomorrow. Its like they think that you wont understand the plot unless they tell it to you again, again and again.

The caharacters have almost no personality, they are only here to provide jokes and the few serious scenes are out of place since the jokes take priority. I like that Sonic and Tails are talking with each other but they are out of character. Sonic who is supposed to act a bit like a big brother to tails is constantly pulling a joke like he was desperate for attention when tails explains something ( i cant speak for everyone regarding this but someone who has a big brother attitude towards his friend isnt behaving like this, sonic pushing tails out of the way however is in character but this is only one scene ) Tails is the plot explainer and the guy who acknoladges sonics jokes ( he is honestly acting more like a big brother than sonic and this to is out of character ) Im not gonna discuss the comedic robot duo and eggman yeah the guy has seen better menacing days.

[TearForFear]

Especially in Colors. I mean, for crying out loud, Tails takes a bullet - or mind control blast - for Sonic when Eggman was going to test it on the Blue Blur himself. How can you say their relationship in that game was nothing but bickering and ignore that detail at the very least? Or when Sonic wants to ensure Tails' safety from the final boss by pushing him into the elevator to return to Earth? Most of Colors was in fact them working together cohesively throughout the game, and we can pull up other scenes where their conversations are so casual to the point of being normal.

 

There's also the little moment when Tails is worried about Yacker's fate and Sonic lowers to search eye contact and reassure him

 

 

[Vertekins]

I suppose what I find annoying about Colours!Sonic is not just the way the 'humor' consumes so many of his lines but also how he seemingly has to act-out and announce how awesome he is when in previous better-written games, Sonic treated his awesomeness like it was ever-present, not something to boast about to such a degree.

[TheHeatSeeker0]

Are you sure you're not just trapped in some strange ghost of the console war? If we're going to start arbritarily going "IT'S LIGHTER BECAUSE IT'S PANDERING TO NINTENDO INSTEAD OF ME", I'm afraid the implications are a bit sad (you know what else is on Nintendo's side? quality games).

No, there's no console war, just facts. Also, you know where you can also find quality games? Everywhere.

 

 

There's also the little moment when Tails is worried about Yacker's fate and Sonic lowers to search eye contact and reassure him

Yeah, you know, that one scene out of the entire game. Also, I'm aware of the scene where they find machine where the wisps are being processed, problem is that we knew about, and heard about it a bunch of times before then. Those scenes still don't make up for the rest of the story.

 

 

Frankly, the only thing that this article has convinced me is that the writer is one of those fans who are so bitter, cynical and angry that they, for whatever reason, can't stand the thought of people liking things that they don't. While they may have a general point that Sonic could get away with being more nuanced in its overall story presentation when handled competently, the article is mired in such a deeply mean-spirited and offensive use of language that they're only making their ultimate argument look horrible.

And all of that is beside the point, we've had much worse and idiotic before then. The issue still stands that Sonic is wrongfully being used to pander to cater to audience that barely cares about these new games, I.E., kids, and the people praising the direction have no idea how Sonic was meant to be cool, and yes, most of those people are hardcore Nintendo fans, whether you agree with the statement or not. It's not so much as simply being a Nintendo fan, but the kind who go around bashing M rated games for not being "mature" then turn around and only play first party Nintendo titles. Most of these kinds of fans I run into have that same generalist opinion and even ignore other E rated games in the process.

[Nepenthe]

Equating lightheartedness with only Nintendo isn't really a fact so much as it is a sweeping generalization. There are lighthearted games on all platforms, and there are darker games on Nintendo consoles, and even then some of those lighthearted Nintendo games are not exempt from having scenes or focuses on heavier or dark tones. More in the Sonic side of things, while Lost World may have been Nintendo exclusive it would be nigh-impossible to argue it's somehow more lighthearted than Generations with its notorious focus on disjointed fluffy Sonic nostalgia at the expense of a more cohesive experience, and it didn't even come out on the Wii. And then Sonic Boom is Sonic Boom.

[Mauro Fonseca]

So the people liking this direction do so because "they don't know Sonic is supposed to be cool".

[TheHeatSeeker0]

Equating lightheartedness with only Nintendo isn't really a fact so much as it is a sweeping generalization. There are lighthearted games on all platforms, and there are darker games on Nintendo consoles, and even then some of those lighthearted Nintendo games are not exempt from having scenes or focuses on heavier or dark tones. More in the Sonic side of things, while Lost World may have been Nintendo exclusive it would be nigh-impossible to argue it's somehow more lighthearted than Generations with its notorious focus on disjointed fluffy Sonic nostalgia at the expense of a more cohesive experience, and it didn't even come out on the Wii. And then Sonic Boom is Sonic Boom.

I don't believe I said Nintendo only make light hearted games, but that's what they and their fanbase pride themselves on, and even as of late, their best games that actually are cooler end up being taken over by other devs, including Starfox, F-Zero, and Metroid, and we hardly see those compared to Mario, Kirby, Pokemon, and Anouma Zelda. Yes, there are light hearted games on other consoles, but they are hardly acknowledged by anyone in either the Sonic or Nintendo fandom.

 

As far as Sonic Boom is concerned, yes, it's it's own thing, but that doesn't justify it's glaring flaws in writing. Can't even see how people ar eso quick to smack talk most of Sonic U.S. outings being seem to think we're suppose to give Boom a chance "Because it's different". This is directed at you, this what I generally see on some sites right now.

 

So the people liking this direction do so because "they don't know Sonic is supposed to be cool".

A combo of that and having an extreme bias for light hearted games, usually, on Nintendo consoles, and one of their IP's. The thing people need to understand that, while SOJ run the company into the ground, Sega was about being cool first and foremost, advertising that they had the "big boy" games that people really wanted, with Sonic being marketed as a cool product for everyone to get into, not just another generic cartoon animal. Look back at the kind of games Sega has made over the years, then look at the ones Nintendo constantly made. Sega of made Streets of Rage to compete with Final Fight since Nintendo bought them out to be exclusive and still out did it, with one of the main turning points for this being Donkey Kong mainly because he was in 3D, which is pretty much the main game to get over Sonic, mainly for the graphics alone.

Point is, you get a lot of people these days that think Sonic is suppose to be childish and "whimsical", when from where I'm standing, mainly one group of gamers actually giving a care about that aspect in general, while ignoring that even the classics were cooler and more balanced then the modern titles.

[BabylonWave]

In SC/ SG e SLW Sonic and Tails were forced too much. I didn't feel any emotions when Tails protected Sonic from Eggman in Sonic Colours, or when he was thrown in the capsule by mistake. There is no feeling, it doesn't keep you on "spikes", is just a mass of "try hard" scenes that, honestly, didn't work.

And in my opinion 2010-present Sonic Isn't Sonic, is a flat clone.

[danidado]

 

Yeah, you know, that one scene out of the entire game. Also, I'm aware of the scene where they find machine where the wisps are being processed, problem is that we knew about, and heard about it a bunch of times before then. Those scenes still don't make up for the rest of the story.

 

 

I was about to point that out. Yes, those two cutscenes, the only ones where finally something actually happens, are merely suffocated under another shower of bad jokes....Just when something good was about to happen...."Yeah, I'm stretching. You've got a problem with that ?"

 

I do. YOU'RE RUINING ANY POSSIBLE GOOD BUILD UP WITH YOUR STUPID BRAGGING !

 

Just two small cutscenes, which go nowhere and are never mentioned again, don't make up for the entire travesty.

[Nepenthe]

I don't believe I said Nintendo only make light hearted games, but that's what they and their fanbase pride themselves on, and even as of late, their best games that actually are cooler end up being taken over by other devs, including Starfox, F-Zero, and Metroid, and we hardly see those compared to Mario, Kirby, Pokemon, and Anouma Zelda. Yes, there are light hearted games on other consoles, but they are hardly acknowledged by anyone in either the Sonic or Nintendo fandom.

 

As far as Sonic Boom is concerned, yes, it's it's own thing, but that doesn't justify it's glaring flaws in writing. Can't even see how people ar eso quick to smack talk most of Sonic U.S. outings being seem to think we're suppose to give Boom a chance "Because it's different". This is directed at you, this what I generally see on some sites right now.

When you feel the need to attach a company to a specific qualifier--

 

and ever since unleashed, the series has been getting pushed more and more into the lighter(Nintendo) side of things.

-- You are indeed equating just that company with that qualifier. If you wanted to speak on lightheartedness in general, there would've been no need for such an aside, much the diatribes about further negative generalizations of hardcore Nintendo fans who as far as I can see don't exist here in any real numbers, which raises the question of why they're even relevant to note.

 

Also, my mention of Sonic Boom had nothing to do with whether or not the writing was flawed either; rather that it's not really shaping up to be the most lighthearted Sonic game one could point out, despite the fact that it's Nintendo exclusive as well.

[danidado]

This is like half of what SLoW was about, but I guess because he didn't handle everything with saintly patience and respect, he's total scum.

 

Tails is a self-righteous scumbag in SLoW. Period

 

He never boasted about himself. He never got angry at Sonic for a nonsense reason his sudden ego came up with, and he never was aggressive.

 

That little despicable lunatic is not Tails. 

[Diogenes]

If that's how you honestly look at the game, then you're too far gone to hold a reasonable conversation with.

[PandoloFox]

 

 

Also, my mention of Sonic Boom had nothing to do with whether or not the writing was flawed either; rather that it's not really shaping up to be the most lighthearted Sonic game one could point out, despite the fact that it's Nintendo exclusive as well.

Dude the introduction to the new villain was by making a joke... Eggman is spouting random funny lines like sonic smells.....Knuckles is portrayed as a muscle head... do i need to go on. The story my friend looks like colors shinannigans right now. we havnt seen everything so ill leave it alone but there is cause for alarm.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Dude, my friend, don't you think you're taking it too far, dude? You seem to consider anything with jokes in it already ruined, my friend. Judging by your comments, my friend, character development can only happen if non-comedic, dude. Seems kinda extremist of you, my friend.

[TheHeatSeeker0]

When you feel the need to attach a company to a specific qualifier--

They and their fans attached themselves to that, I did not specifically say "Nintendo makes light hearted games", so there's no way to read that as such, or you would have to wonder how I got my avatar.

[PandoloFox]

If that's how you honestly look at the game, then you're too far gone to hold a reasonable conversation with.

Danidado may be a bit rough but many thinks that tails is breaking character and is being onedimensional. He is a gary stu with emotional problems, honestly its quite hard to point out what he is supposed to be since he is very inconsistent.

[Celestia]

Point is, you get a lot of people these days that think Sonic is suppose to be childish and "whimsical"

Who says this? The "whimiscal" part I could understand, in the sense that lots of fans (including...classic fans, actually!) lean towards that sort of thing, in terms of enjoying the surreal aspects of the Sonic universe. But I don't really see people asking for "childishness".

 

, when from where I'm standing, mainly one group of gamers actually giving a care about that aspect in general, while ignoring that even the classics were cooler and more balanced then the modern titles.

What exactly is "cool", anyway? What do you really mean by it? Because it seems to me it's a really vague concept, to the point where I'm getting the impression it's really just a buzzword in this conversation that translates to "I like these games and not those other ones".

[TheHeatSeeker0]

Dude, my friend, don't you think you're taking it too far, dude? You seem to consider anything with jokes in it already ruined, my friend. Judging by your comments, my friend, character development can only happen if non-comedic, dude. Seems kinda extremist of you, my friend.

I read the comics dude, so I can't see how you came to the conclusion, since the comics have all of that, WITH, better, less childish writing to boot. No where did I say I don't like anything with jokes, I don't like Colors, Lost World, because they are horribly written, go nowhere, and flat out lame.