Occupy Wall Street

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

That's the exact mindset that has caused the American landscape to be dominated by two separate but equally hypocritical/useless/self-serving parties.

Almost, because it begs the question: "why is there no popular third party candidate?"

Is that because of an actual lack of political diversity, or is that because there's a psychological deterrent against supporting that third candidate? Is it easier for most voters to view the political landscape in binary perhaps?

Or is it just that, to date, there has been no sensible third-party candidate moderate enough to foster widespread appeal? The two-party system doesn't create itself under a culture of political apathy, or the UK would only have two parties as well. Indeed, whilst they are minority parties, they are significant minority parties.

I can't imagine that there's much this protest can or will achieve.

On its own it will do nothing, but down the road it will set a historical precedent, and in this it finds its real value. What mark this protest will leave on history depends on what descends from it later, not the movement itself as it is.

This is a time to lay down a foundation for a fight yet to come that most people cannot see clearly right now. When - not if - the sun sets on the US' time as a major superpower in world politics, it will be forced to find itself a new place in the world, and at the same time the sun will also set on the prevalance of Western rhetoric worldwide as that depends primarily on the dominance of the US. Much has been said of the capacity for both China and India to become global superpowers sometime this century, and at the very least India seems to be on course to acquire this power. When that time comes, and the US realises an external power can brow-beat it and force it into policies it might not like itself - the same thing it's done many times over the last century, how will it react? Certainly not pleasantly. It wasn't started with this purpose and the people involved aren't aware yet, but this protest movement is a testing ground for finding out where the lines will be drawn when the time comes, by whom, and what they will stand for in that new era. Fundamentally, as scattered and disparate as this protest is, that is also its greatest potential symbol - that a truly diverse people can stand united on a common ground, flying in the face of every attack on multiculturalism that we've seen in the last decade, just as another very loud group is declaring that there is only one way to be a morally upstanding American citizen, and anyone who does not comply is a blood traitor. It's a declaration of principles on both sides that will ring loud and clear to a newer generation when the time comes that the US must finally accept orders from another nation as it has resisted tooth and nail for the last 250 years. Is the US prepared to isolate itself and commit suicide upon its own principles to continue to exist or not? Or will it be prepared to look within and without for guidance and play on the strength of its own diversity to contribute in a future where it does not have all the cards stacked in its favour?

Incidentally, by that same point any European state not a member of the EU will be in serious trouble in a way we haven't seen since the Cold War - caught in the middle of an international pissing contest between new superpowers not particularly interested in that part of the world. After all, this will be a scary new political sphere where the two major superpowers on Earth happen to share a land border, so they're most likely to think close to home and damn everyone else in the process.

I'm done sounding like a crazy man now. Make fun at your leisure, but I'll keep on wearing my smugface. :3

[Nepenthe]

@ Flyboy: You're admittedly coming at this from an angle that suggests the people are protesting because they feel unnecessarily victimized and should shut up about it despite you not demonstrating any knowledge or thoughts about our country's economic woes, which makes a lot of your questions sound silly in the first place. But if I'm going to be tasked to do this, then fine. Again, I'm focusing on the two major problems I outlined above although smaller issues encompassed in the movement can be gleaned by yourself as I literally don't have the time to do that deep into it. Got two large art projects due tomorrow:

What can/will these protests achieve?

To have people's dissent heard and to potentially offer up solutions to problems relating to wealth disparity and corporate money influencing our elections.

How will these protests change anything for the better?

They're advocating for a middle class that will have better purchasing and political power than they do now and will set a precedent of protesting power in the future.

Do these protests truly reflect circumstance or is some/a lot of it an exaggeration or not really as much a problem as some other more urgent issues?

Yes, they reflect circumstance. Wealth inequality is at an all-time high in the US. And frankly, it's hard to think of too many other bigger problems than "your biggest socioeconomic class is sick and not recovering."

Can ALL these problems be fixed?

The two problems I personally outlined can certainly be fixed.

Do the protesters have ideas as to how to fix it - better ones than the people paid to make such decisions - or do they not really know what should be done?

What do you mean? Again, this is an issue that is being perpetuated by the very people being paid to make legislative decisions in the first place, meaning they're not going to fix it themselves anytime soon because they're benefiting from it.

Are the majority of these issues really so serious in a quality of life way?

We're talking about the erosion of the middle class so yes, it affects quality of life.

Is it reasonable to expect a perfect society or at least one in which there is absolutely equality and all (or at least most) folks are content? Is it possible, what they are asking for?

There's a difference between asking for a utopia and asking for pre-Bush era tax increases to come back. There's a difference between asking for perfect fairness across the board and demanding a government that isn't bought and paid off. There's a difference between pie-in-the-sky dreams and wanting more corporate regulation. These demands are not unreasonable.

Now that I've answered all of those questions (and Velotix has chimed in), can you answer the single one I asked: If you don't believe protesting is the correct way to solve these problems,then what is?

[Badnik Zero]

Nepenthe and Flyboy are touching on this already, and sorry if this offends anyone, but I feel as if this protest is brought to us only by a shrinking and disillusioned middle class, now come out in numbers. Especially the young people who feel as if everything's gone wrong in the world. Middle America is basically it, uncomfortable with how the economy puts them on fragile ground. And meanwhile the immigrants and truly poor who eat shit on a regular basis and who expect to sweat to earn are doing as well as they always have. Problems may be real, Nep said it, but the protest feels awfully privileged.

[Way Past Cool]

Just some food for thought, and I think it's a thought more than a few of my fellow Americans can echo. I'm having a very hard time knowing what the he'll they're fighting for. I've heard lots of supposed causes thrown around -- an end to big money in politics, tax reform, regulating corporations -- all things I can't say I disagree with. However, protests are most effective when the aim is very pointed and specific. In the 60s, people protested the Vietnam War, Protested for civil rights, protested for women's lib... But rarely did they protest these things all at once in one big uber protest.

A protest is meant to be a sea of people coming together to speak in one clear voice. You can't hear that voice if everyone is saying something different.

Occupy Wall Street comes off as a bunch of college students protesting for the sake of protesting. It doesn't come on the heels of some big legislation that's about to be passed, or some other event that could change history... The election isn't even close enough to be considered a reason. Instead of protesting, these people should be forming grassroots information campaigns to help everyone understand and get behind their cause.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

I feel as if this protest is brought to us only by a shrinking and disillusioned middle class, now come out in numbers.

You realise that if there's no actual middle class to speak of in a country then all that country has is "really poor people" and "really rich people", right? This is the point - America used to be famous for its incredibly fluid social mobility, so what the hell happened to it?

Just because it doesn't sit at an extreme of a scale doesn't mean its views and concerns aren't valid; that's just silly.

[Badnik Zero]

The middle class is still very much here though. And I'm saying they are complaining about issues that only now effect them, which makes me say, I like the problems you're seeing now but they have been the status quo. Also Velotix, your posts sound like you expect some kind of collapse of civilization.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

No, that would be silly, but it is due for a fundamental restructuring.

[turbojet]

Did you try to answer any of my questions?

Didn't see them. Sorry.

"What can/will these protests achieve?

It would accomplish getting the government's attention and they can't ignore millions of people protesting. For one, they will no longer pay so much attention to the 1% of the population that seem to constantly lobby them.

How will these protests change anything for the better?

I am no mind reader, but I suspect that there be an attempt at a tax rate system and there will be no more corporate bailouts. For added measure, if a large company even tries to outsource U.S currency out of country to avoid taxes, their money would be rendered useless and it would be treated as a serious crime. Then again, that's what I would do.

Do these protests truly reflect circumstance or is some/a lot of it an exaggeration or not really as much a problem as some other more urgent issues?

Considering that people can't find jobs and the government(American) seems to be catering to the rich in times of need, it may not be an exaggeration as people don't really have a clue what exactly they are protesting.

Can ALL these problems be fixed?

No. But people are protesting so it is whatever.

Do the protesters have ideas as to how to fix it - better ones than the people paid to make such decisions - or do they not really know what should be done?

When it comes to Economics, nobody really has a clue since it is an assumption that people do rational things with money like spend it. You can cut taxes or raise them(Just don't do both. History has proven that it doesn't work time and time again). You can raise taxes on the rich or the middle class. It really doesn't matter who gets the shaft in the end. It only matters who should get the shaft.

Are the majority of these issues really so serious in a quality of life way?

It may not be to some, but if they are making such an uproar over it, then they should have their issues paid attention to. Look. I watched the Tea Party scare monger their way into power with bullshit and lies when they are just puppets of neo-cons. Times are desperate and people are tired of being sick and tired.

Is it reasonable to expect a perfect society or at least one in which there is absolutely equality and all (or at least most) folks are content?

I don't think anybody wants that. If so, look at China, South Korea, and the former Soviet Union to see how well that works.

[Cynical]

I don't think anybody wants that. If so, look at China, South Korea, and the former Soviet Union to see how well that works.

*looks at China*

They have more money than us...

[Nepenthe]

Lindsay Lohan also has more money than most if not every single person on this board, but I don't think she's anyone to emulate.

[Tornado]

*looks at China*

They have more money than us...

And the wealth disparity is about 20 times worse over there than it is over here. They've also rattled a lot of cages and fudged a lot of numbers to become as much of an economic powerhouse as they are.

[Cynical]

And the wealth disparity is about 20 times worse over there than it is over here. They've also rattled a lot of cages and fudged a lot of numbers to become as much of an economic powerhouse as they are.

[Badnik Zero]

No, that would be silly, but it is due for a fundamental restructuring.

I guess, but I wouldn't expect it. Can I also say it bothers me that the protesters compare themselves to the Arab Spring. You gotta be delusional. Most Arab countries have no guaranteed rights of speech or protest. You'd be shot upon. Meanwhile on Wall Street, "Wah, help I am being arrested unfairly."

Edited October 17, 2011 by Dabnikz

[leave_nothing]

Not sure if it's been posted...

[Stacy]

Not sure if it's been posted...

Good damn hippies!

Get haircut, have a wash and join the army plenty of jobs in the army!

EDIT: I love my fellow hippies as look as they don't weed in my cake!

Edited October 17, 2011 by BW199148

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

...Skipping BW's incredibly ignorant and offensive statement... not to mention the implications in the video title...

It's nice to see people having fun with this protest and keeping up their morale even with a serious cause. Lots of these protesters will have been at this for days on end, and you need to do something to break the monotony.

[Stacy]

...Skipping BW's incredibly ignorant and offensive statement... not to mention the implications in the video title...

Sorry that was clearly a joke, Velo.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Not buying it, brah.

As a rule it's best not to attempt sarcasm in text form.

[Stacy]

Not buying it, brah.

As a rule it's best not to attempt sarcasm in text form.

No it was, I just left like to see I could get a reaction.

[leave_nothing]

lolwut someone is trying to make a case for the degenerates' professionalism?

[Flyboy Fox]

Whoa whoa whoa... no brawling in here on my birthday >_> Now kiss and make up or you all get a time out.

In other words, everyone, chill and get back on topic. This is a topic that stirs up peoples' emotions on both sides of the coin, but please, it doesn't need to get personal.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

lolwut someone is trying to make a case for the degenerates' professionalism?

[Cynical]

Good damn hippies!

Get haircut, have a wash and join the army plenty of jobs in the army!

EDIT: I love my fellow hippies as look as they don't weed in my cake!

... Oh yeah, and you think I'm the one with one dimensional views...

Not all hippies smoke weed... Well actually I can't think of that doesn't, but it doesn't mean you should be one dimensional of it...

Still thinking...

No it was, I just left like to see I could get a reaction.

[Flyboy Fox]

Okay, I did say stop. That wasn't code for "post ponies". Pretty straightforward really. No more.

[Cynical]

Okay, I did say stop. That wasn't code for "post ponies". Pretty straightforward really. No more.

I forgot to add the "I see what you did then."

Fine...