Occupy Wall Street

[Tornado]

It is called Skank of America for a reason.

[Nepenthe]

Is it only for new cards or will it be applied to existing card holders too?

Regardless though, I don't think being upfront with unnecessary thievery bars you from criticism. I imagine a significant portion of the complaints are from people who won't ever bother getting one anyway. =P

[Stacy]

Apartlely a large number of protesters are anti-capitalists, so what would they replace capitalism with?

[Stacy]

I really need to stop reading this topic. It's bringing my IQ down lower and lower everytime I do >_<

Why?

[Stacy]

I really need to stop reading this topic. It's bringing my IQ down lower and lower everytime I do >_<

EDIT: While I'm here I may as well educate the lot of you a bit - https://www.facebook...yWallSt?sk=info -

Yeah their Facebook page so what I am looking for!

[Stacy]

EDIT: Fuck, wrong forum, wrong post lol.

Did you even give it a look?

Yes I did, I can't say I care, after those riots we had in the UK I am not too found of protests either they just get hijacked by JJB wearing scumbags and rent-a anarchists who they hate corporations but after the protest they go to work in a office the next day.

[Nepenthe]

You're judging all of us on the basis of what one person said? Classy. Instead of looking down on us as if you have all of the answers in the world, might you be interested in actually educating us to bother fostering the conversation you seek?

[Stacy]

^ That post right there just told me none of you have a got Damn clue. Well I'm off to avoiding this topic like the black plaque. Call me when somebody actually makes an educated post.

Excuse me, like you know everything? Look people have the right to protest but after what happened in UK this summer I am quite skeptical about what might happen at these protests and if they will achive anything meaningful.

[Tornado]

^ That post right there just told me none of you have a got Damn clue. Well I'm off to avoiding this topic like the black plaque. Call me when somebody actually makes an educated post.

To say nothing what ragequitting out of what has been the most part an informed and friendly discussion just because people don't agree with you says about you.

Regardless though, I don't think being upfront with unnecessary thievery bars you from criticism.

It has to be said: Most of the reasons that banks make money with credit cards is because they are held by stupid people. The ones who run up huge balances, then pay minimum payments because that is all they can afford to pay off. And those people have, in the past few years, been weeded out; which means most of the people who have credit cards are the ones who can game the system, and banks lose money on them.

[Flyboy Fox]

Oh dear. That Facebook page doesn't fill me with confidence. So much exaggeration, misinformation, scare-mongering and even a slight conspiracy theorist vibe. The people who throw these pages up on the internet have all of the complaints but none of the facts... nor the solutions. What they want is irrational and impossible. You simply cannot fix ALL of those problems. Even first world countries have limited abilities.

I feel like a brat for saying this, but I'd love to give some people in the developing world the 'terrible' lives that so many of these protesters claim to have. I'm sure they wouldn't complain.

I'm not saying that people should ignore problems and not speak up. But this is just mob mentality. It doesn't solve anything.

[Stacy]

Oh dear. That Facebook page doesn't fill me with confidence. So much exaggeration, misinformation, scare-mongering and even a slight conspiracy theorist vibe. The people who throw these pages up on the internet have all of the complaints but none of the facts... nor the solutions. What they want is irrational and impossible. You simply cannot fix ALL of those problems. Even first world countries have limited abilities.

I feel like a brat for saying this, but I'd love to give some people in the developing world the 'terrible' lives that so many of these protesters claim to have. I'm sure they wouldn't complain.

I'm not saying that people should ignore problems and not speak up. But this is just mob mentality. It doesn't solve anything.

You said it better than I could have said it Flyboy, damn right!

[Nepenthe]

It has to be said: Most of the reasons that banks make money with credit cards is because they are held by stupid people. The ones who run up huge balances, then pay minimum payments because that is all they can afford to pay off. And those people have, in the past few years, been weeded out; which means most of the people who have credit cards are the ones who can game the system, and banks lose money on them.

So basically, most people nowadays who have credit cards and can game the system are actually the people making smart purchasing decisions and being responsible for paying off their bills? Furthermore, is BoA actually losing enough money to justifiably add what people are considering ridiculous surcharges? I can't imagine the lack of this surcharge suddenly putting them in the grave.

[Legendary Emerald]

Tried to talk to my father about the wallstreet stuff yesterday. He said that the majority of the people were morons, and that they were having sex in the street and shitting on police vehicles.

... okay. That sounds beyond absurd. Can I get some refutation or confirmation on this matter?

[Tornado]

So basically, most people nowadays who have credit cards and can game the system are actually the people making smart purchasing decisions and being responsible for paying off their bills?

Yes. Banks are no different than casinos in that regard, in that they actively dislike the people who know how to play their own game against them. You make purchases with a credit card and pay them off immediately, and with almost any modern credit card the bank will lose money on you.

Furthermore, is BoA actually losing enough money to justifiably add what people are considering ridiculous surcharges? I can't imagine the lack of this surcharge suddenly putting them in the grave.

No, but they need to make up the shortfall somewhere. I don't really know, but I wouldn't be surprised if credit cards made up a huge percentage of bank income, and in the past 4 years that market has completely collapsed on itself. Even in previous times where banks were hesitant to make personal loans or mortgages, credit cards were still there to be leaned on to try and make up the difference. Now, the mortgage market is dead, personal/small business loans might as well be but credit cards aren't actually doing any better. That's why so many banks have been so aggressive trying to get the market to take off again.

[Nepenthe]

Yes. Banks are no different than casinos in that regard, in that they actively dislike the people who know how to play their own game against them. You make purchases with a credit card and pay them off immediately, and with almost any modern credit card the bank will lose money on you.

:| My pie-in-the-sky self ain't happy learning that banks want me closer to financial ruin just to wring me dry for profit and make the shareholders happy. This is exactly why I'm so cynical towards macroeconomics.

No, but they need to make up the shortfall somewhere. I don't really know, but I wouldn't be surprised if credit cards made up a huge percentage of bank income, and in the past 4 years that market has completely collapsed on itself. Even in previous times where banks were hesitant to make personal loans or mortgages, credit cards were still there to be leaned on to try and make up the difference. Now, the mortgage market is dead, personal/small business loans might as well be but credit cards aren't actually doing any better. That's why so many banks have been so aggressive trying to get the market to take off again.

Understood. But the thing is, if they're not losing enough money in either the short or long term to justifiably add the fee, then they don't actually need to make up the shortfall by taking away money from their customers, many of whom may already be having far more difficulties with the current economy themselves, which is the problem people are having with BoA with this little plan they've proposed. And as far as I know, banks are not going to be able to get the market to take off again, not through maneuvers like this.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

It's interesting what I said at the beginning of this thread, because now this movement has had time to mature and establish a clear agenda I'm starting to see the situation quite differently.

Frankly after reading that wall post myself, it makes perfect sense to me and I don't see much exaggeration in there at all (saying that with a straight face), though I'd like sources to verify the last few claims made.

I'd also like to remind the thread that if people did not speak out about these injustices, it could easily be interpreted as silent acceptance of the situation, which is absolutely not what is required right now. It is quite possible for a situation to become serious enough that people cannot ignore it any longer even if they don't have an answer to fix it; only that they know that whatever happens it cannot remain as it is. More importantly, this is not a matter of what is going on right now although that is itself quite serious; it is a matter of where this will go if left alone, and it's going down a very nasty road.

I don't know about you, but I'd really rather not have the USA become an isolationist fascist state, because that's completely possible as the situation stands even if it won't actually happen for a long while yet. It's a matter of declaring principles, being unafraid to declare those principles - because there's certainly been a lot of passive-aggressive marginalising and demonising of certain political views in US history despite supposed freedom of speech on such matters - and drawing lines in the sand long before it becomes necessary to resort to violence to enact change, and that requires aggressively denouncing a theoretical future situation before it becomes reality, ridiculous though it might seem to you right now. ("The US an isolationist and fascist state? Ridiculous! What you just said is unAmerican and sounds like something a terrorist would say.") A number of people in this thread (and forum indeed) are understandably very averse to violence, but to the point they're practically willing to bend over and take whatever the state throws at them so long as they're left alone and their families aren't hurt. To put it as politely as I can, I certainly hope I've misinterpreted that sentiment, because otherwise it's both unreasonable and offensive to be such a coward. Being reasonable does not mean you are eternally compromising and placating others, or you won't have any principles left to defend.

[Flyboy Fox]

Protesting this way isn't being brave, and choosing not to protest this way isn't cowardly. What do these protesters hope to achieve? They are all different people, thousands of individuals, with different lives, priorities, and problems. There's no magic fix. Not only that, but a petition (and this is all it really is) has no actual power. Why? Because the people they're petitioning have no actual power. You can't ask for all these things to be fixed and expect it to just happen. There's no way that it can. The president can't snap his fingers and make ALL these things happen... dang, it took him four years to get DADT repealed, which was one of his main platforms. Peer pressure doesn't actually cause the problem to suddenly be fixable. I understand the sentiment, but protest like this makes no sense in so far as actually getting anything done. Do you think the government doesn't already know there are problems?

Besides, where does the money come from to police the streets, keep people safe, treat the injured, clean the streets, and cover the work that people aren't attending while they're protesting? There's already not enough money. Why strain resources even more for such a disorganised ineffectual cause?

People want to feel like they're doing something. I get that. But making a noise doesn't change the mess that's there. It doesn't suddenly make solutions possible. It just causes unrest and disquiet on a scale that only amplifies problems rather than helping to solve them.

[Tornado]

Plus, these are mostly the same groups of people who bitch and piss and moan and whine, then turn right around and don't vote.

Understood. But the thing is, if they're not losing enough money in either the short or long term to justifiably add the fee, then they don't actually need to make up the shortfall by taking away money from their customers, many of whom may already be having far more difficulties with the current economy themselves, which is the problem people are having with BoA with this little plan they've proposed. And as far as I know, banks are not going to be able to get the market to take off again, not through maneuvers like this.

I honestly don't know enough about BoA's financial state to comment on this.

[Cynical]

Then there truly isn't a problem in banking.

Well, time to take advantage and create a regime. *runs off to LA.*

[Nepenthe]

As far as I personally understand the situation, the two biggest common problems people are protesting- money in politics and corporate greed/excessive wealth disparity- are basically governmental issues that benefit those working at the higher level anyway, so there's no other way to voice dissent but to protest. Generally, the candidates who raise the most money have a greater chance of getting elected, keeping a job, and be well off than the ones that don't, which means they're going to cater heavily to those who have the most money, e.g. rich people and corporations. It then becomes a vicious cycle. Even if the government knows and believes it's a problem, waiting around on them to fix it on their own is foolish because in all likelihood, they're not going to until things are to the point where they'll have no choice, by which then working class people will be even more screwed. I mean, why would they try fixing it now? You'd be insane to pass up the amount of money being thrown around. =P

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

I understand the sentiment, but protest like this makes no sense in so far as actually getting anything done. Do you think the government doesn't already know there are problems?

[Tornado]

Which leads me to this: of course people don't vote when they don't have a politican to vote for who reflects their own political views and the strength of conviction in those views. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't here; not voting means you don't contribute to the system and passively let the system continue as-is, and voting means you vote in someone you don't agree with who won't get things done the way you want them done, which completely shits all over democracy as a concept.

That's the exact mindset that has caused the American landscape to be dominated by two separate but equally hypocritical/useless/self-serving parties.

[Flyboy Fox]

Okay... let me just put out the question(s), then:

What can/will these protests achieve? How will these protests change anything for the better? Do these protests truly reflect circumstance or is some/a lot of it an exaggeration or not really as much a problem as some other more urgent issues? Can ALL these problems be fixed? Do the protesters have ideas as to how to fix it - better ones than the people paid to make such decisions - or do they not really know what should be done? Are the majority of these issues really so serious in a quality of life way? Is it reasonable to expect a perfect society or at least one in which there is absolutely equality and all (or at least most) folks are content? Is it possible, what they are asking for?

I can't imagine that there's much this protest can or will achieve. People love to feel oppressed and victimised and make a stink. People don't know when they have it good. People are so entitled... and they seem to feel that unless every injustice is corrected, they're victims to a cruel and totalitarian government that crushes and oppresses their freedom.

I await the backlash XD; I'll just be over here trying to get a minumum wage job whilst attempting to pay off my insane university loans and bask in the glory of having a home, an education, a peaceful war-free life. I don't like my government or my prime minister, but I think his job is incredibly difficult and I feel fortunate that I have it as damned good as I do.

[Nepenthe]

I've never understood the mentality of "If you have it good, you should keep quiet about bad things." We're not exactly talking about the McDonald's running out of nuggets. What the serious people are fighting against is a combination of the majority of the wealth in the entire country being concentrated in a significant minority of people, a lack of comparable rise in income for the working class to stave off the disparity this has caused, and a government that fosters this culture for short-term re-election results and comfort, which ultimately equates to a shrinking of the middle class and subsequently lower standards of living for the vast majority of people in the country. Those are the biggest problems the movement seems to be taking on. Honestly Flyboy, what do you want them to do to voice their concerns? You're advocating they're wrong by protesting but aren't even offering any solutions yourself in return. You just seem apt to criticize. Should they just, I dunno, stay home and keep quiet about it? xP

[Flyboy Fox]

Did you try to answer any of my questions?

"What can/will these protests achieve? How will these protests change anything for the better? Do these protests truly reflect circumstance or is some/a lot of it an exaggeration or not really as much a problem as some other more urgent issues? Can ALL these problems be fixed? Do the protesters have ideas as to how to fix it - better ones than the people paid to make such decisions - or do they not really know what should be done? Are the majority of these issues really so serious in a quality of life way? Is it reasonable to expect a perfect society or at least one in which there is absolutely equality and all (or at least most) folks are content? Is it possible, what they are asking for?"

I'm willing to re-evaluate if someone can prove to me that there is any point to these activities and that the problems can and should be tackled in this way.

But if I'm blunt, I really don't know what more people expect, and no matter what they're given they will continue to complain. The more freedom folk get, the louder they wail about what's still wrong.