Kishimoto Hopes Sonic Frontiers Will Take Sonic Team to the Top of the Gaming Industry

Posted By: followmyrainbow

Love the energy and I do think it looks good, but I'm still doubtful. Sega just haven't seemed to care about the quality of Sonic games since 2011 and they half-ass every detail.

2 hours ago, azoo said:

Them turning Sonic into the game they're leading in with Frontiers feels less like a genuine "this is the best we can do" and more of an admittance of defeat. "If we can just make an average-grade version of trends done better elsewhere, that'll be the level of competence we can afford to make more of forever and people will accept". It's maybe a relief to anyone who's a Sonic fan that we might have a reliably 'okay' structure to depend upon, but it's not the ambitious message they're maybe hoping.

Maybe all this would come off more ambitious if it bothered to try harder at marrying Sonicy game elements into the game, but it seems to think combat is the future, while platforming and level design is optional, with little consideration for them coming together. It all feels like a weird security blanket they've made: Now with their new setup they no longer have to be concerned about being good level designers anymore. The fun is supposed to come from how you play, not how they design. They have an out, at last (even if incredibly flimsy), and with it they finally feel secure in the games they're making. Like saying they don't want to make Sonic games anymore without saying it. Not surprising, considering ST's track record.

By the way I'm not even saying the game can't find it's own ways to be enjoyable. Going by outside impressions, it probably is pretty decent at best. And Sonic fans only ever view this series as a character action franchise anyways, so it hasn't been a hard sell for much of the fanbase. 

Best case scenario is just learning how to bring these ideas together better in future titles. Considering they seem to think the combat-oriented approach is their breadwinner for this formula, I have really low faith in that happening, but it is what it is.

I do feel like combat as it's being presented in Frontier is more interested and closer to Sonic vibes than previous takes on it.

I was personally never a fan of how boost turned most enemies into glorified bowling pins. Or how a lot of Adventure enemies were easily disposed of with a homing attack.

At the same time Unleashed and Heroes involved way too much stopping, and repetitive action when it came to their combat that dragged things down. However, one thing I did like about Heroes is that combat at least with the smaller enemies had a range of options to tackle them quickly and effortlessly without as much stopping and starting as you would in the beginning of the game, marrying it with the ranking objects more seamlessly.

With this game though, I think combat is showing some of its best aspects in the bosses, who are closer in design to buildings that Sonic could scale, or just natural objects you'd commonly interact with. However, by their aggressive nature, you need to rely on platforming and speed to maneuver and manipulate boss patterns for avoidance, while having little downtime for repetitive button mashing. I think Tower best represents this, since the design is reliant on your mastery of Sonic's turning.

And for some of them, you don't even need to make a full commitment to combat to gain progress. Like when fighting Asura, if all you want is a gear piece to unlock a cyberspace level, all you need to do is attack the legs and leave. It's a very seamless process that I think is a step closer to making combat gel with Sonic style platforming.

I think combat being such a big highlight for Frontiers' marketing is because Boost gameplay is more of the same. It's something that need not be elaborated upon, since we've been at the same thing since Unleashed. But with combat, a new progression system, and a new style of play with lots of new elements--you're gonna need to take the time to explain those things. It doesn't necessarily mean that the platforming or the elements of Sonic we know him for are out of focus, but that it's going to be sharing the space with new things that people might not necessarily want. In that sense, it's not a whole lot different from games like Adventure 1 and 2.

32 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

I think combat being such a big highlight for Frontiers' marketing is because Boost gameplay is more of the same. It's something that need not be elaborated upon, since we've been at the same thing since Unleashed. But with combat, a new progression system, and a new style of play with lots of new elements--you're gonna need to take the time to explain those things. It doesn't necessarily mean that the platforming or the elements of Sonic we know him for are out of focus, but that it's going to be sharing the space with new things that people might not necessarily want. In that sense, it's not a whole lot different from games like Adventure 1 and 2.

Pretty much. Honestly,  the game on hand looks to be maintaining the core aspects of Sonic quite well, between the speed, level design and gameplay. 

It's pretty keen too, on how they incorporate that speed into the combat as well, making it look good and snappy, and according to those who have gotten to play it, it flows quite well too.

Now, I do feel sorry for the specific Sonic fans that might not gel well with this game, and perhaps feel off about it, but this still appears to be an honest endeavor that encapsulates what makes Sonic, Sonic.

Now, all that needs to happen is for it to stick the landing.

Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are very divisive because of their non-Sonic elements though, despite how vocally loved they are. 

So yea, I don't see how that's good for anyone that actually just wants to play a Sonic game without another genre tacked onto it.

Speaking purely for myself, I still don't get why they insist on adding all of this extra shit when it's been proven that pure Sonic gameplay is what sells. Like I get it, designing for a character as fast as Sonic is hard in a 3D space, I get it.

But instead of making the most out of the little content that might yield, they decided to compromise Sonic's core more and more to pad out the game's length. It makes for an inherently mixed bag of an experience; in Frontiers' case, if you want actual Sonic gameplay, they're relegated to small one minute levels lifted from previous games. If you're interested in the open world or the combat, well then those elements might not be as fleshed out as they could be because they had to put some focus on the Sonic stuff.

So nobody walks away entirely satisfied, except maybe the group of Sonic fans who only care about the story and characters or thr group of fans who primarily care if Sonic just does well enough to not get lambasted.

I understand what Kishimoto and the team want to do, but I don't feel like it benefits Sonic in anyway than what had already been done and will just further divide people. In other words, nothing changes.

34 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So nobody walks away entirely satisfied, except maybe the group of Sonic fans who only care about the story and characters or thr group of fans who primarily care if Sonic just does well enough to not get lambasted.

Not necessarily. Honestly, it's going to just come down to who this gels with. There are some who are definitely set against this game in their mindset, but there are those who genuinely find this game to be interesting, and it's not just some bout of settling for it either. And given the overall positivity, it looks like the game will leave a lot of people satisfied fully, provided it's as consistently fun as it appears to be.

2 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Not necessarily. Honestly, it's going to just come down to who this gels with. There are some who are definitely set against this game in their mindset, but there are those who genuinely find this game to be interesting, and it's not just some bout of settling for it either. And given the overall positivity, it looks like the game will leave a lot of people satisfied fully, provided it's as consistently fun as it appears to be.

If the bar is set to just merely making people satisfied, then that's really not saying much. Most people have been satisfied with these games since Sonic Colors despite how much Sonic fans will tell you otherwise. So this isn't really saying much. Its not hard to make a satisfying yet unremarkable experience. 

Just now, Kuzu said:

If the bar is set to just merely making people satisfied, then that's really not saying much.

I mean,  this game is liable to go well above that bar.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Most people have been satisfied with these games since Sonic Colors despite how much Sonic fans will tell you otherwise. So this isn't really saying much. Its not hard to make a satisfying yet unremarkable experience. 

That's really missing the point of what I'm saying though.

It's not about the game simply satisfying people like Forces did. This game actually looks like it's going above and beyond with its ambition. And provided it plays its cards right, the majority of players and fans are in for a great time.

Even better if this ends up being the game that influences the future of the series positively.

And it's not impossible either. I know some few may scoff, but this game really is oozing with ambition that doesn't feel misguided. 

1 hour ago, ZinogreVolt said:

I think combat being such a big highlight for Frontiers' marketing is because Boost gameplay is more of the same.

I don't think this is an issue of the marketing choices as much as it is...well, this exactly. The platforming gameplay is rotting out from underneath itself (again) and instead of trying to fix it they're tacking gimmicks on. This is the big step into open world gameplay after years of becoming more linear and more automated, and the potential blueprint going forward after years of underperforming, for a 30 year old platforming series, and the big changes they've made to accomplish this are that he can...turn better now. And the boost uses a stamina meter ripped straight from BotW.

Also there's like 30 sliders to tweak how he controls because the developers just couldn't figure out how this platforming character is supposed to move.

Except in cyberspace where they force specific settings on you anyway.

So yeah the now-traditional elements of boost Sonic gameplay are still in there, largely unchanged...and that's a really bad sign.

17 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I mean,  this game is liable to go well above that bar.

That's really missing the point of what I'm saying though.

It's not about the game simply satisfying people like Forces did. This game actually looks like it's going above and beyond with its ambition. And provided it plays its cards right, the majority of players and fans are in for a great time.

Even better if this ends up being the game that influences the future of the series positively.

And it's not impossible either. I know some few may scoff, but this game really is oozing with ambition that doesn't feel misguided. 

Can you see a game like Frontiers competing with other open-world games currently on the market? If so, what sets it apart from those games? Why would a consumer consider Frontiers over say, Elden Ring or GTA5 beyond the fact that it's Sonic doing it.

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think this is an issue of the marketing choices as much as it is...well, this exactly. The platforming gameplay is rotting out from underneath itself (again) and instead of trying to fix it they're tacking gimmicks on. This is the big step into open world gameplay after years of becoming more linear and more automated, and the potential blueprint going forward after years of underperforming, for a 30 year old platforming series, and the big changes they've made to accomplish this are that he can...turn better now. And the boost uses a stamina meter ripped straight from BotW.

Also there's like 30 sliders to tweak how he controls because the developers just couldn't figure out how this platforming character is supposed to move.

Except in cyberspace where they force specific settings on you anyway.

So yeah the now-traditional elements of boost Sonic gameplay are still in there, largely unchanged...and that's a really bad sign.

Yeah that surprised me in how bluntly they mentioned that.

The options are neat but an outright admittance that they didn't know how to blend the two well is something I'd expect them to shy away from addressing outright, rather than use the PR of options solely

4 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Yeah that surprised me in how bluntly they mentioned that.

The options are neat but an outright admittance that they didn't know how to blend the two well is something I'd expect them to shy away from addressing outright, rather than use the PR of options solely

I mean, I appreciate the honesty but lol. The fact that this isn't setting off people's alarms is pretty telling. 

Just now, Diogenes said:

I don't think this is an issue of the marketing choices as much as it is...well, this exactly. The platforming gameplay is rotting out from underneath itself (again) and instead of trying to fix it they're tacking gimmicks on. This is the big step into open world gameplay after years of becoming more linear and more automated, and the potential blueprint going forward after years of underperforming, for a 30 year old platforming series, and the big changes they've made to accomplish this are that he can...turn better now. And the boost uses a stamina meter ripped straight from BotW.

Also there's like 30 sliders to tweak how he controls because the developers just couldn't figure out how this platforming character is supposed to move.

Except in cyberspace where they force specific settings on you anyway.

So yeah the now-traditional elements of boost Sonic gameplay are still in there, largely unchanged...and that's a really bad sign.

I do find it pretty weird. They are adding a fair number of elements to Sonic's repertoire (wall running/a degree of vertical movement/the Drop Dash) but little of the game's overall design helps facilitate or seamlessly blend them into his movement. It's at its worst in the Cyberspace levels. Maybe it's a result of what the game was at its earliest stages and they couldn't change enough in time, but the more likely answer is that the devs don't really envision Sonic other than what he's been doing for the past 10-odd years.

Just now, Kuzu said:

Can you see a game like Frontiers competing with other open-world games currently on the market? If so, what sets it apart from those games? Why would a consumer consider Frontiers over say, Elden Ring beyond the fact that it's Sonic. 

I feel like people are sooner going to purchase Frontiers because it's an open world game where you play as Sonic (an appealing prospect on paper), not just because it's an open world game.

3 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

 

I feel like people are sooner going to purchase Frontiers because it's an open world game where you play as Sonic (an appealing prospect on paper), not just because it's an open world game.

Yea that's kind of the point. Most of the people who are going to buy this game are either children who love Sonic and fans...who love Sonic. If this game is going to be carried entirely by its brand identity as opposed to the quality of the game itself, then its not really going to be the mainstream hit Kishimoto wants it to be isn't it? 

5 hours ago, azoo said:

The fun is supposed to come from how you play, not how they design. They have an out, at last (even if incredibly flimsy), and with it they finally feel secure in the games they're making. Like saying they don't want to make Sonic games anymore without saying it. Not surprising, considering ST's track record.

I can definitely relate to the feeling that SEGA's given up on trying to make Sonic work building off of itself to appeal to a broader audience. It's surreal to think about it. After 20 years of trying to make Sonic work as a platformer in 3D, they came to conclusion it couldn't, and decided to start again from another angle.  Frontiers seems to be panning out well, so maybe that was for the best.

Just now, Kuzu said:

Yea that's kind of the point. Most of the people who are going to buy this game are either children who love Sonic and fans...who love Sonic. If this game is going to be carried entirely by its brand identity as opposed to the quality of the game itself, then its not really going to be the mainstream hit Kishimoto wants it to be isn't it? 

People were hyped for Elden Ring years before they even showed any footage of it, because the idea of combining Souls-likes with an open world is a massively appealing one. Likewise, Sonic going open world has people much more curious about Frontiers compared to past games, simply because the core idea is an interesting one. If the game winds up receiving poor to middling reception, then it probably will just be carried by brand power. But judging by the reception its demos and press have given it, it's hard to say how reception will even turn out.

To be honest, I'm surprised it took them this long to realize it lmao. You'd think after that would have been apparent to them after making Sonic into a racecar with barely any platforming. 

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Can you see a game like Frontiers competing with other open-world games currently on the market?

Why do you feel it needs to in that regards? It's not even purely an open-world game, but an open-zone format as they've clarified. 

It's different in pace and structure from the norm of open-world games.

And even if we are to consider it an open world, if the game is up to snuff in quality, then yes, it can compete.

23 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If so, what sets it apart from those games? Why would a consumer consider Frontiers over say, Elden Ring or GTA5 beyond the fact that it's Sonic doing it.

They've put a Sonic spin on it. It has the speed and platforming that Sonic is known for an incorporated his speed into the combat.

And, with some speculation of possibly being able to do more with the Super Sonic form, that also suggests more stuff to set it apart.

1 minute ago, ZinogreVolt said:

People were hyped for Elden Ring years before they even showed any footage of it, because the idea of combining Souls-likes with an open world is a massively appealing one. Likewise, Sonic going open world has people much more curious about Frontiers compared to past games, simply because the core idea is an interesting one. If the game winds up receiving poor to middling reception, then it probably will just be carried by brand power. But judging by the reception its demos and press have given it, it's hard to say how reception will even turn out.

Souls games already have a good reputation for actually being very well put together games, and sure enough, Elden Ring innovates on what was already established. It's reception is earned. Sonic games are generally known for their middling, and inconsistent qualities but still sell because he's a popular icon from the 90's. 

But you know what recent Sonic game actually did manage to reach mainstream success, and was still a great game on top of it? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Forces. 

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Souls games already have a good reputation for actually being very well put together games, and sure enough, Elden Ring innovates on what was already established. It's reception is earned. Sonic games are generally known for their middling, and inconsistent qualities but still sell because he's a popular icon from the 90's. 

But you know what recent Sonic game actually did manage to reach mainstream success, and was still a great game on top of it? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Forces. 

I think I understand your plight. You have latent doubts about the game's quality, despite the positive impressions from most who've played the game. 

That's where your apprehension comes from in regards to this game.

On the whole, it hasn't really given most fans stuff to worry about,  specifically by this point of the marketing.

The start of the marketing is definitely a different story though. Woof.

6 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Why do you feel it needs to in that regards?

Because that's literally what the topic of the title says. Kishimoto said this, not me. If he is going to make a statement like that, then he is putting this game on the same pedestal as those other games and thus, comparisons are valid. 

6 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

 

It's not even purely an open-world game, but an open-zone format as they've clarified. 

Buzzwords.  Its an open-world game and everyone acknowledges it as such. 

6 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

It's different in pace and structure from the norm of open-world games. And even if we are to consider it an open world, if the game is up to snuff in quality, then yes, it can compete.

And I once again ask, how? 

6 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

They've put a Sonic spin on it. It has the speed and platforming that Sonic is known for an incorporated his speed into the combat.

And, with some speculation of possibly being able to do more with the Super Sonic form, that also suggests more stuff to set it apart.

So its more of the same of what the series has been doing, that doesn't exactly set it apart then. The Super Sonic part is the only original part of this game so far since it hasn't been done before. 

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Because that's literally what the topic of the title says. Kishimoto said this, not me. If he is going to make a statement like that, then he is putting this game on the same pedestal as those other games and thus, comparisons are valid. 

Honestly, it feels like no matter what's said, you're personally going to come to the conclusion that this game can't stand on it's own legs of quality.

2 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I think I understand your plight. You have latent doubts about the game's quality, despite the positive impressions from most who've played the game. 

That's where your apprehension comes from in regards to this game.

On the whole, it hasn't really given most fans stuff to worry about,  specifically by this point of the marketing.

The start of the marketing is definitely a different story though. Woof.

I have literally said, even in a Status Update that you posted earlier today, that this game will do fine. There is not a doubt in my mind that this game will do ok, but that's all its going to be.  It's going to be a drop in the bucket for the series, as opposed to the mainstream hit that they, and some fans, will expect it to be.  

It's less apprehension, and more bewilderment that they feel like this is such a huge change for the series when its just slapping yet another gimmick in, as opposed to actually designing a proper 3D Sonic platforming game. 

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So its more of the same, that doesn't exactly set it apart then.

If that's how you see things, fair enough, but it's a virtue that helps it stand as a good game. You're looking far too deep into this thing as something that's supposedly not going to help it.

It still does set it apart to degree and it held well with the gameplay, apparently superbly at that, going off of impressions from those who have played the game.

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Because that's literally what the topic of the title says. Kishimoto said this, not me. If he is going to make a statement like that, then he is putting this game on the same pedestal as those other games and thus, comparisons are valid. 

Buzzwords.  Its an open-world game and everyone acknowledges it as such. 

And I once again ask, how? 

So its more of the same of what the series has been doing, that doesn't exactly set it apart then. The Super Sonic part is the only original part of this game so far since it hasn't been done before. 

Is Frontiers "more of the same" or is it "open-world"? Saying it's both is an oxymoronic sentiment. I feel like you're underestimating how much being open world fundamentally changes how you approach video games, especially since being a platformer on top of that gives Frontiers a reasonably unique blend.