New Smash Bros?

[LunarEdge]

I remember the good'ol days of Melee, when Shiek's Zelda transformation was used as a better stage recovery or a quick alternative to high damage/high knockback opportunities with Zelda's higher damage output... now though... nope

Edited July 20, 2012 by LunarEdge

[Blacklightning]

Pokemon Trainer requires a whole other level of risk-reward factoring that every other character doesn't have.

Oh, I don't doubt that. When you have a tri-form character that's essentially a jack-of-all-trades spread across three forms, though, something's gotta give. By the sounds of things most of the problems stem from allowing PKMN to become fatigued in the first place, so uh... switch before it becomes a problem? I dunno, obviously you can't just switch whenever you feel like it, so context and planning ahead is pretty important.

[-Robin-]

Oh, I don't doubt that. When you have a tri-form character that's essentially a jack-of-all-trades spread across three forms, though, something's gotta give. By the sounds of things most of the problems stem from allowing PKMN to become fatigued in the first place, so uh... switch before it becomes a problem? I dunno, obviously you can't just switch whenever you feel like it, so context and planning ahead is pretty important.

If you can easily and consistently keep track of how quickly your Pokemon become fatigued, then be my guest.

Remember, the Pokemon become fatigued even faster for every single attack they do besides their later hits of their Jab combos, their throws, and their grab pummels. Add to that the natural fatigue they get for just staying out on the field, then the Pokemon will be fatigued before even a minutes goes by.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Qwilfish

[LunarEdge]

^ running out of that PP maaaaaaaaaaaan

[Phos]

Do the Ice Climbers really need to come back? Does anyone like them? I also know a lot of people claim that the Ice Climbers have an advantage over Ganondorf, I don't see how. They seem like the sort of character he should be able to deal with.

They need to focus on the party aspect. Smash is meant to be a game where you can get non-players/casual players/veterans together and still have fun. If you tried doing that with, say, Street Fighter, the casual/less experienced players would probably be losing pretty consistently, and it would be frustrating.

That's all I was really getting at.

I blame a lot of that on idiosyncrasies that are all (relatively) specific to SF IV, though. One frame links means that most new players will have difficulty doing a LP MP combo is my favorite example. Virtually of the game's systems have entire uses that require a lot of practice to take advantage of. If you can't FADC, the focus system is of dubious usefulness, while you technically can focus crumple -> ultra, most ultras are best used as tools to make your opponent shy away from using some of their better options, this being one of the best things about the game, too bad the inputs for Ultras are DQCF + 3P at best and just plain confusing at worse (I'm looking at you, Guile's Ultra I). Actually on that subject, I think Guile's biggest buff to date has been in receiving an Ultra that people can actually do consistently, a lot of the times I've seen people do Ultra II it's been in situations where Ultra I would probably be better. The game's input is just a mess if you ask me. Does any other game have option selects? These almost seem like the result of coding errors.

Also, funny thing: I'm conflicted about Ganondorf. I wish he had a unique move set, but at the same time I absolutely adore playing as him in Brawl, even if his jab (his fastest move) is so slow that Sonic can punish a wiff at full screen. Really all I need though are his Ftilt (AKA, das boot), jab,up air, and side B. They can change the rest.

[SilentDoom]

It's not just a party game, but it is one first and foremost. Even Sakurai has said it. Obviously it's cool that people have fun and enjoy playing it in different ways, but my point is that making something that's easy for new players to understand and immediately pick up is incredibly important.

They need to focus on the party aspect. Smash is meant to be a game where you can get non-players/casual players/veterans together and still have fun. If you tried doing that with, say, Street Fighter, the casual/less experienced players would probably be losing pretty consistently, and it would be frustrating.

That's all I was really getting at.

I'm well aware that of what Sakurai thinks of the series, but to be honest Sakurai's mentality towards the series in general isn't a very open minded one when it really should be. Brawl annoyed so many players in the Smash community because of its lack of competitive depth, slower pace, dumbass mechanics that add nothing to the game (e.g. tripping), terribad balance and over-emphasis on defensive play. Sure it was definitely more accessible than Melee and there's a lot of things Brawl does pretty well, but Sakurai pretty much excluded the competitive audience simply because he wanted the game to be easy to pick up and play.

But my point is accessibility and depth can definitely compliment each other rather than oppose each other. They shouldn't just focus on the party aspect. They did that for Brawl and it annoyed loads of Smash fans. They shouldn't focus on one aspect, but rather try to cater to many. That makes so much more sense and would make so many more people happy.

Edited July 20, 2012 by SiLeNt PyRrH0n

[Solly]

I blame a lot of that on idiosyncrasies that are all (relatively) specific to SF IV, though. One frame links means that most new players will have difficulty doing a LP MP combo is my favorite example. Virtually of the game's systems have entire uses that require a lot of practice to take advantage of. If you can't FADC, the focus system is of dubious usefulness, while you technically can focus crumple -> ultra, most ultras are best used as tools to make your opponent shy away from using some of their better options, this being one of the best things about the game, too bad the inputs for Ultras are DQCF + 3P at best and just plain confusing at worse (I'm looking at you, Guile's Ultra I). Actually on that subject, I think Guile's biggest buff to date has been in receiving an Ultra that people can actually do consistently, a lot of the times I've seen people do Ultra II it's been in situations where Ultra I would probably be better. The game's input is just a mess if you ask me. Does any other game have option selects? These almost seem like the result of coding errors.

Yes, Street Fighter in particular has a lot of things that make it less new-player friendly, but I think just about all tournament fighters and games made in similar vain are way, way harder for a casual player to play with veterans, at least when compared to Smash Bros.

Although I think I'm stating the obvious here.

I'm well aware that of what Sakurai thinks of the series, but to be honest Sakurai's mentality towards the series in general isn't a very open minded one when it really should be. Brawl annoyed so many players in the Smash community because of its lack of competitive depth, slower pace, dumbass mechanics that add nothing to the game (e.g. tripping), terribad balance and over-emphasis on defensive play. Sure it was definitely more accessible than Melee and there's a lot of things Brawl does pretty well, but Sakurai pretty much excluded the competitive audience simply because he wanted the game to be easy to pick up and play.

If I can be honest, most of Brawl's issues you listed, with the exception of it being slower, all seem like they were just bad game design choices rather than natural consequences of making the game easy to pick up and play. In other words, I don't feel like Brawl's biggest issues, and the things that most people complained about can really be explained away by saying "this is what happens when you focus too much on the party aspect."

Hell, in the case of tripping it was kind of like Sakurai was deliberately snubbing competitive players more than it was aiding Brawl as a casual game.

I agree that they should try to cater toward as many players as they can, though. How they will do that, and if they will do that for Smash 4 has yet to be seen. Like I said, this could be a radically different game.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Solly

[Mangoaxe5]

Nah, he appeared in Super Star Saga.

Yes Geno appeared in SS, but that was because Nintendo got permission from Square.

Although Geno appears in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga in the minigame Star 'Stache Smash, he is a registered trademark of Square Enix, as the end credits of the game indicate. It says: "Regardless of the above-mentioned, the copyright of Geno, reserved by Square Enix, Co. Ltd.".

Edited July 20, 2012 by Vampfox

[Blacklightning]

I agree that they should try to cater toward as many players as they can, though. How they will do that, and if they will do that for Smash 4 has yet to be seen. Like I said, this could be a radically different game.

Smash 64 had the right balance if you ask me. It was floaty enough that you didn't have to have cocaine reflexes without punishing people who did, and pretty much anyone could pull off simple combos at low damage while leaving room for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHsCV3oYiOkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEOEHSPz1pU

ones at tourney level play. There's not a whole lot that can go wrong if you follow that example besides individual moveset tweaks

[Remy]

for starters that luigi vid is tool assisted, for seconds plenty can go wrong, if you set hitstun too high the game becomes prone to infinites, hitstun too low and there are no combos or rewards for offence.

it's a pretty delicate balancing game, when it comes to fighters, especially one with such a large cast

[Blacklightning]

They're all TAS actually, but at times tourney play isn't actually a hell of a lot removed from stuff like that. Just wanted to get some cases in point out there. As far as hitstun is concerned, the biggest mistake anyone can make is to treat it as a universal value when it could easily just be treated as a value unique to every individual hit in the game, and/or as a value that changes exponentially with the game's mechanics (big knockback = fucktons of hitstun, as one completely random example). Ideally it's the kind of balancing that really should have been going on right from day 1, but LOLOL PAERTEE GAEMS I guess.

[Chaos Warp]

So if a balance is wanted, maybe have Smash 64-style physics with more Melee-like hitstun? That way, it's not so fast that it's hard to get into, but the hitstun still allows for good combos and a more balanced (Between offensive and defensive) playstyle? I would not mind that.

Also, what does competitive depth exactly mean in the context of Smash? Is it wavedashing, L-cancelling and all those tricks the devs never meant players to do? Or is it just a more combo-oriented game engine? Or something else entirely?

Edited July 20, 2012 by Chaos Warp

[Remy]

Also, what does competitive depth exactly mean in the context of Smash? Is it wavedashing, L-cancelling and all those tricks the devs never meant players to do? Or is it just a more combo-oriented game engine? Or something else entirely?

A good competitive game is fun, fair and usually, deep.

Things like the wavedashing tricks, l cancelling and combos can make a game more fun to play, as the challenge gives rise to interesting techniques and matches.

But they aren't the real reason people play smash competitively, or any game competitively.

[Nicknyte]

Oh man, I played this game competitively. One of the best Luigis in the States, I am. Oh married life, why you daunt me so~.

L-canceling, wavedashing. Yea. Not meant to be in the game, and on some characters, you don't even need it. But it does add to mind games and advance tactics. Still, its not why people play the game competitively, as stated before.

Days of my youth.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Nicknyte

[Tornado]

Although I think I'm stating the obvious here.

If I can be honest, most of Brawl's issues you listed, with the exception of it being slower, all seem like they were just bad game design choices rather than natural consequences of making the game easy to pick up and play. In other words, I don't feel like Brawl's biggest issues, and the things that most people complained about can really be explained away by saying "this is what happens when you focus too much on the party aspect."

Natural consequences, no. I certainly agree that a party game and a competitive game are not mutually exclusive concepts. But when you have Sakurai dicking with things like that because he actively wants to discourage people from going against Nintendo's Wii-era "Everyone will win at least once!" mentality and playing the game the way that they want; then what is the difference, really?

Edited July 20, 2012 by Gilda

[Nicknyte]

Sakurai needs to embrace his competitive community instead of shun it away, thinking smashers are like the plauge. Is he too afraid that people will buy his game more because it would create big tournaments that would increase sales? Dunnow. He likes Brawl as his watered down party game, when it shouldn't be like that.

[Candescence]

I think, last I remember, Sakurai's stance is more in the realm of "it's the match that matters, not who wins". The analogy he gave when he said that was that he, for example, doesn't root for any particular side in a sporting match - to him, the match itself is what is most exciting, not who wins or loses.

Issue is, the way he went about things with Brawl didn't go over too well with many competitive players. Personally, I prefer Brawl over the other Smash games, but that's just me.

Though, considering Sakurai is making character balance more of a team effort and that most of the SSB4 team is composed of guys who have worked on fighting games such as Tekken and Soul Calibur, it'll be interesting to see how SSB4 will turn out in terms of casual/competitive balance.

[Chaos Warp]

Personally, I prefer Brawl over the other Smash games, but that's just me.

I do too, because although it was too slow and too defensive, it's still really fun to play and it adds so much content to the game (new characters, single player). So it still wins overall. Just providing clarification for the sake of the thread: I don't hate Brawl! (in fact I love it despite it's flaws).

I still want faster physics and a more balanced offence/defence scale though for Smash 4 though.

[Nicknyte]

I still prefer Melee, but that's just me, but I do enjoy playing Brawl from time to time. Luigi is sick in that game. No real reason why we gotta debate over which one is better. I respect that about this thread.

Sonic 4 should be faster, not as floaty, and should be better offensively and defensively. Also tripping gots to go:

[Chaos Warp]

I still prefer Melee, but that's just me, but I do enjoy playing Brawl from time to time. Luigi is sick in that game. No real reason why we gotta debate over which one is better. I respect that about this thread.

Sonic 4 should be faster, not as floaty, and should be better offensively and defensively. Also tripping gots to go:

"Sonic 4"? Lol.

[Solly]

Yes Geno appeared in SS, but that was because Nintendo got permission from Square.

Well, I never knew that. I stand corrected!

Natural consequences, no. I certainly agree that a party game and a competitive game are not mutually exclusive concepts. But when you have Sakurai dicking with things like that because he actively wants to discourage people from going against Nintendo's Wii-era "Everyone will win at least once!" mentality and playing the game the way that they want; then what is the difference, really?

The difference is that we're supposed to blame Sakurai and his general craziness instead of Smash Bros' Party-Game nature.

[Chaos Warp]

Also, I've been thinking: What if you were able to keep your dash momentum when you jumped out of a dash, sort of like a "Dash jump"? Could open up air chase possibilities, especially if you could cancel it.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Chaos Warp

[Ekaje]

Do the Ice Climbers really need to come back? Does anyone like them? I also know a lot of people claim that the Ice Climbers have an advantage over Ganondorf, I don't see how. They seem like the sort of character he should be able to deal with.

I'd be pretty disappointed if they took out characters like the Ice Climbers. I don't play as them that often, but they bring a unique moveset and I think it's neat that they just decided to throw in a random NES character (speaking of which, since they did ICs and Pit, I wonder if another forgotten character will be introduced in SSB4).

[#EndyGate]

I'd be pretty disappointed if they took out characters like the Ice Climbers. I don't play as them that often, but they bring a unique moveset and I think it's neat that they just decided to throw in a random NES character (speaking of which, since they did ICs and Pit, I wonder if another forgotten character will be introduced in SSB4).

I've noticed that they basically bring back 2 classic/forgotten characters each game. Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch came in Melee, and we got Pit and R.O.B. in Brawl. Though seeing as we may not get anymore character slots, it may not be the same in this game

[Gregzilla]

The results of the VGTribune Smash Poll Semifinals are in: http://vgtribune.com/smash-poll-2012-semifinals/#more-982

Shulk is in the lead. Skull Kid is close behind, only 104 votes behind Shulk. Then comes Mega Man, then Ridley, then Ghirahim.

Here is the final poll being held: http://vgtribune.com/smash-poll-2012-finals/#more-1024

The final choices to vote are: Professor Layton, Isaac, Shulk, Skull Kid, Mega Man, Ridley, Ghirahim, and King K. Rool. You can now only vote for one character.

Skull Kid is now leading with 41%, and Shulk has 3% so far. Interesting, Shulk keeps going back and forth in popularity.

I'm extremely torn between Ridley and Skull Kid. I've wanted Ridley for a long time, but in the end I think I'm gonna have to go with Skull Kid. Sakurai can't pull any "he's too big" bullshit with him, and Majora's Mask gives him a lot of potential for being an interesting fighter. Still hope Ridley makes it, though.

As for replacing old characters with new ones, the Pokemon will probably be switched out. Besides that, I personally wouldn't mind losing R.O.B., Marth, Snake, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, and/or any of the clones.