New Smash Bros?

[Mangoaxe5]

I'd rather have Midna over Skull Kid.

Midna needs more love.

[Gabz Girl]

Toon Link won't be dropped, neither Link himself. Sure T. Link's last game came out 2 years ago, but I think he's still revelant because his character has appeared in more Zelda games than others.

Also, if Link ends up having a Skyward Sword look it would mean Zelda should too, but she's a completely different Zelda in that game. It would be really interesting to see a new Zelda who has a new move set and cannot transform into Sheik.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Gabz Girl

[Toby]

Or they could drop Toon Link because Link was cel shaded in Skyward Sword as well, leaving an open slot for a more interesting character, rather than a slightly faster, slightly weaker, significantly smaller clone of Link.

[Old dead account]

...This is news to me. Any source proving this?

[citation needed]

I distinctly remember a poll in which he was in and high on the list but for some reason he was cut.

Also, this. There's no way this is fan made

[Gabz Girl]

That remix is fantastic! Definitely doesn't sound fan made to me. If Geno was supposed to be in Brawl then I would like to see him in the new Smash Bros!

[SilentDoom]

I really hope they take some inspiration from Project:M. Or at least draw some attention to it. I mean c'mon, it's only one of the largest console game mod projects in existence and definitely the largest one for Brawl.

[-Robin-]

I'm certain I heard that BTFM remix on an arranged album somewhere. Brawl does contain coding for a song with "forest" as the name, but I doubt it was for BTFM.

I'd sooner believe the song was supposed to be Toadwood Forest from M&L: Partners in Time.

With a little rearrangement, that song would go perfectly in Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2.

[Chaos Warp]

I really hope they take some inspiration from Project:M. Or at least draw some attention to it. I mean c'mon, it's only one of the largest console game mod projects in existence and definitely the largest one for Brawl.

Wouldn't that technically be illegal if they didn't pay you?

[SilentDoom]

Wouldn't that technically be illegal if they didn't pay you?

Not really unless they literally took the stuff we did. I was more implying they see Project:M and what kind of things it offered to the overall Smash experience and draw inspiration from that for Smash 4.

...

Or they could just hire us XP

[Solly]

I distinctly remember a poll in which he was in and high on the list but for some reason he was cut.

What kind of a poll? Who chose the characters who would be on the poll? These are important questions, because honestly all this tells me is that he was unable to get in even after getting voted for.

Not to mention Geno doesn't seem to have any unused data on the disc, like other unused characters such as Toon Zelda, Roy or Dixie Kong.

As for the music, it's interesting but hardly conclusive.

[Xenos]

One reason why Geno wasn't in the game either way was because Square Enix still own him, along with Mallow I believe. SE could have simply not let Nintendo use him even if they wanted to.

[Solly]

One reason why Geno wasn't in the game either way was because Square Enix still own him, along with Mallow I believe. SE could have simply not let Nintendo use him even if they wanted to.

Nah, he appeared in Super Star Saga.

If I can be honest, I think he probably didn't appear because he's really not all that worth it. He's really obscure as far as Mario characters go, and that series has a lot of character representation anyway.

[#EndyGate]

Brawl does contain coding for a song with "forest" as the name,

Could it be this song:

[Chaos Warp]

Not really unless they literally took the stuff we did. I was more implying they see Project:M and what kind of things it offered to the overall Smash experience and draw inspiration from that for Smash 4.

So in other words: go back to Melee-style physics and an overall more competitive game engine? I can get behind that. Problem is, they really were kinda hard to master, which isn't a really big deal if you're decently good at Smash, but for newbies, the learning curve is a lot steeper. I speak from personal experience facing off against non-gamers in both Project M and Brawl. In Project M, I often utterly rape them (And I'm not a crazy-competitive wavedashin' player at ALL), but in Brawl, they actually do decently and they manage to take a life or 2 out of me after a while. There is some benefits to having a more casual game engine.

Which brings me to my next point: maybe they give us the option to switch between Brawl-style physics and Melee-style physics? They could call then, "Casual Mode", and, "Fighter Mode" or something, this way they can cater to both types of players. I believe I have suggested this a WHILE back in the thread, but screw it.

[Solly]

I don't think giving the option to change the actual game physics would be very easy, or necessary.

Remember that Sakurai has talked a lot about making this game different. It's probably not going to be Brawl/Melee with more or less characters. For all we know they could be entirely reinventing the wheel.

I agree, though, that Smash Bros. should be accessible- more so than Melee was. I liked the fast gameplay too, but at the end of the day this is a party game. It's supposed to be the kind of game you can get 2-3 other people playing with you and still have fun.

[Phos]

You'd have to be an absolute idiot to switch/transform within reaching distance to begin with. The idea is to get some breathing room first - do a knockback or kill and transform while they're too busy recovering to punish you. I thought this was common sense. =\

If anything, the real problem with multi-form characters is that you really have no reason to switch in the first place, and by that stage they might as well take up seperate character slots anyway. Especially in Zelda's case, in which neither character really has any major weakness that requires the other form - logically you'd think Sheik would have a crippling lack of killing blows that requires a switch to Zelda to finish someone, but the fact that he does essentially mean they're interchangeable, which is not a particularly good trait for a duality gimmick. Even with the PKMN trainer, which supposedly makes your switched-in PKMN tired over time, has almost no noticable affect on gameplay. What's the point in a character with multiple forms if you're only obliged to use one?

You wanna try learning some tact?

Anyway, the load time on the transformation is so long your opponent can cross the stage in the time it takes to finish transforming. If you're transforming while they're recovering, you're letting them back onto the level for free. Against pokemon trainer, someone who knows what they're doing can just stall till their pokemon gets tired, they behave as though all their moves are stale putting them at a major disadvantage.

Project M

I found Brawl + made all the changes the game really needed, I still don't get the appeal of Project M.

But bringing this up does remind me of a rather goofy thing about tournament smash: Why the heck is team damage on in tournament team games?

[Chooch]

It promotes genuine team synergy and cooperation instead of both members throwing out attacks every which way like complete morons. If you do you'll get your partner killed.

Also you or one of your team mates is one of the Mother kids you can lower damage with PSI Magnet and a projectile special move.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Chooch

[Diogenes]

I wonder what it would be like to have a kind of friendly fire where hitting your partner would only do knockback, not damage. Maybe even limited knockback, not enough to kill each other on your own. You would still knock each other around if you weren't careful, but it's not quite as dangerous.

[SilentDoom]

I agree, though, that Smash Bros. should be accessible- more so than Melee was. I liked the fast gameplay too, but at the end of the day this is a party game. It's supposed to be the kind of game you can get 2-3 other people playing with you and still have fun.

But it's not just a party game. It's a hybrid fighting, party game. If it was just a party game there wouldn't be a competitive scene at all. The beauty of Smash is that it can be played in many ways and people's perceptions of "fun" with regards to the series are also different. "Fun" to many people is getting down in one on one battles and having a raw quick paced fighting experience. Whilst for others, it's playing with a bunch of friends with items on and loads of craziness.

In my opinion, if Sakurai and Namco Bandai want to make a really good game they need to strike a balance of Smash's signature accessibility, fluidity, competitive depth and content so they can appeal to as many Smash fans as possible.

[Blacklightning]

You wanna try learning some tact?

All I said was that transforming when it's obvious your opponent will be able to reach you is a stupid thing to do. I wouldn't say that's being offensive to any specific person here.

Anyway, the load time on the transformation is so long your opponent can cross the stage in the time it takes to finish transforming. If you're transforming while they're recovering, you're letting them back onto the level for free. Against pokemon trainer, someone who knows what they're doing can just stall till their pokemon gets tired, they behave as though all their moves are stale putting them at a major disadvantage.

I had to use Google to find out what this supposedly major disadvantage was, and it turns out it's a reduction in attack power by 3%. Three fucking percent. That's... really nothing to get worked up over. There's some knockback reduction in there too supposedly, but I never noticed because all three pokes have ridiculously powerful and effective killing blows regardless (Squirtle's Dsmash (or was it Usmash?), Ivy's Usmash, and Charizard's... well, Charizard in general).

As for the logistics behind switching, I don't think it's unfair to suggest that abandoning a possible spike or edgeguard to set up for a refreshed kill as soon as they get back is a reasonable tradeoff, nor is it to suggest that the time taken for an enemy's failed recovery and respawn is more than enough time to get a fresh switch out anyway. And stalling is a major problem with any character capable of it regardless, so that goes without saying, but honestly they're just wasting their time unless they're already in the lead or in such serious condition that three percent extra genuinely matters to them.

Edited July 20, 2012 by The Cheese

[LunarEdge]

I thought during the Pokemon switch/Zelda transformation, there were a few frames of invulnerability? Everyone I ever played that used Zelda/Sheik usually used one or the other, so transforming mid-fight wasn't too much of an issue for them. Giving, that's not the case but yeah... I wonder why it took so long... you would think that both characters would be loaded into the ram(?) or w/e the Wii utilized for back-up data and transformations would have been a lot quicker.

Apparently, pausing the game after executing the command for transformation, pausing the game for a few seconds and unpausing it leads to instant transformation, but it fucks up the game during that match to an extent... i forget how tho

[Solly]

But it's not just a party game. It's a hybrid fighting, party game. If it was just a party game there wouldn't be a competitive scene at all. The beauty of Smash is that it can be played in many ways and people's perceptions of "fun" with regards to the series are also different. "Fun" to many people is getting down in one on one battles and having a raw quick paced fighting experience. Whilst for others, it's playing with a bunch of friends with items on and loads of craziness.

In my opinion, if Sakurai and Namco Bandai want to make a really good game they need to strike a balance of Smash's signature accessibility, fluidity, competitive depth and content so they can appeal to as many Smash fans as possible.

It's not just a party game, but it is one first and foremost. Even Sakurai has said it. Obviously it's cool that people have fun and enjoy playing it in different ways, but my point is that making something that's easy for new players to understand and immediately pick up is incredibly important.

They need to focus on the party aspect. Smash is meant to be a game where you can get non-players/casual players/veterans together and still have fun. If you tried doing that with, say, Street Fighter, the casual/less experienced players would probably be losing pretty consistently, and it would be frustrating.

That's all I was really getting at.

[-Robin-]

I had to use Google to find out what this supposedly major disadvantage was, and it turns out it's a reduction in attack power by 3%. Three fucking percent. That's... really nothing to get worked up over. There's some knockback reduction in there too supposedly, but I never noticed because all three pokes have ridiculously powerful and effective killing blows regardless (Squirtle's Dsmash (or was it Usmash?), Ivy's Usmash, and Charizard's... well, Charizard in general).

Each of the Pokemon's moves hit with 70% of the regular knockback if they are fatigued.It's a pretty noticeable decline in strength, and can get very cumbersome if the opponent is quick to react, since all those moves you listed are well above average reaction time.

The Pokemon's best chances to KO when fatigued are when Squirtle gets a grab into his Dthrow, which can be DIed accordingly since EVERYONE knows that Dthrow's coming when Squirtle grabs you, when Ivysaur charge-releases Fsmash, and when Charizard Rock Smashes or Bairs. All of those moves, when fatigued, kill around 150-160%. It's pretty noticeable.

[Blacklightning]

I thought during the Pokemon switch/Zelda transformation, there were a few frames of invulnerability?

There are, but for all the time it lasts it's more than predictable enough to have a Falcon Punch waiting in time for the switch to finish. There aren't many ways to use the transformations defensively without being punished for it - at best you can use it to avoid Dragoon attacks and some Final Smashes, but even then you still have to be ready a fair bit in advance, with the same drawback for fucking it up.

Each of the Pokemon's moves hit with 70% of the regular knockback if they are fatigued.It's a pretty noticeable decline in strength, and can get very cumbersome if the opponent is quick to react, since all those moves you listed are well above average reaction time.

The Pokemon's best chances to KO when fatigued are when Squirtle gets a grab into his Dthrow, which can be DIed accordingly since EVERYONE knows that Dthrow's coming when Squirtle grabs you, when Ivysaur charge-releases Fsmash, and when Charizard Rock Smashes or Bairs. All of those moves, when fatigued, kill around 150-160%. It's pretty noticeable.

Oh good, I was wondering if someone actually knew the stats on the knockback decrease. That's something I couldn't find the first time.

Though I still maintain that even fatigued, it's still more than possible to get enough knockback to accomodate a switch out, which is really something a good PKMN trainer should be doing if the extra killing power matters at the time. Hell, why even wait that long? Just switch between KOs and you're good to go. This is, like, the most basic form of resource management imaginable, it's not like there's any rocket science invovled.

[-Robin-]

Well, choosing to switch out depends largely on how needed the next Pokemon in line is going to be.

Consider a Charizard fighting Snake. Charizard is at 165% and is fatigued, and Snake is two throws away from being killed by Down Throw, which should kill at the edge at around 180% no matter how the Snake DIes the attack. Snake has been playing very conservative at this point and Charizard just can't get in. Do you continue to fight with Charizard and try to get the KO, or do you get that first throw in to give you time to swap to Squirtle, who will then take that that 165% Charizard had, and will have to risk dying to *insert Snake move here* in order to get in and get the fresh killing Dthrow?

Pokemon Trainer requires a whole other level of risk-reward factoring that every other character doesn't have.