General Nintendo sales/business discussion topic (previously: The Wii U Thread)

[PSI Wind]

I feel that when you get too big, none of the three should do the marketing for you unless you have something exclusive on them. 

[LunarEdge]

I don't know why he's solely blaming Nintendo. True they should've marketed it better, but wasn't EA the one who screwed up on the game too? Why is everyone so afraid of blaming EA yet are quick to say it's Nintendo's fault? ><

Doesn't EA have this like....hate for Nintendo as of late?

[VO.SUPER]

Doesn't EA have this like....hate for Nintendo as of late?

The execs hate them because they refused to support Origin on Wii U.

The devs hate it because they only used early bad dev kits that don't reflect the current ones.

And from this guy's post, there seems to be a consensus from both parties that Nintendo were the ones who needed to market their games of they want their support. (They even sent them a copy of NFS:MW, so they could market it.)

I wonder if this is the popular thing to happen amongst big devs and publishers. How much do they market their games, and how much are Sony and MS doing that for them?

[LunarEdge]

The execs hate them because they refused to support Origin on Wii U.

The devs hate it because they only used early bad dev kits that don't reflect the current ones.

the Origins thing does ring a bell. Wasn't EA trying to control the whole online infrastructure for the Wii U at some point since it was Nintendo's first online service technically.

[VO.SUPER]

the Origins thing does ring a bell. Wasn't EA trying to control the whole online infrastructure for the Wii U at some point since it was Nintendo's first online service technically.

Yep. Nintendo said, "No thanks." And they said "Fuck you."

Nintendo has had a bad relationship with EA for a while and this pretty much sealed the deal.

[RK64]

I know we discussed why the Wii U is struggling to death at this point, but maybe this video might better explain why the Wii U might meet a fate errely similar to another Nintendo failure:

 

 

Matt Pat makes really great videos on all kinds of theories but this one really stood out amonst the many he did ; its scary how right he is when explaining why the Wii U is struggling ...

[Wraith]

Before you all start a riot please, PLEASE do not take game theory too seriously. This is coming from someone that likes the show.

[RK64]

Before you all start a riot please, PLEASE do not take game theory too seriously. This is coming from someone that likes the show.

 

I don't take Matt Pats Theories seriously, as he does gloss over many points in that particular discussion (the Deluxe bundle having a pack in game, all the Wii software being backwards comparable, the gamepad have 'some' games that use its potential, 'some' third party software, REALLY GREAT Nintendo-made games like 3d World and DKC:TF, ect), but his main point of the Wii U's core being flawed and it being hard to develop for (his point about third party support is very right; the fact it is hard to port games PS4/XB1 level games to the Wii U is really bad ) is right.

 

I just posted the video to bring another dimension on "Why the Wii U is struggling?" question, as it is something that is important to answer.

[Wraith]

His main point couldn't be more correct, yeah. The sooner everyone accepts the flaws of the system the better.

[Dejimon11]

Yeah nope not listening to that crap. I've seen his other videos like the jinx is racist and the mario and peach thing I couldn't take him seriously and what made me hate him more is the mega man one I don't even want to get into that

[Soniman]

His main point couldn't be more correct, yeah. The sooner everyone accepts the flaws of the system the better.

 

I thought the last near 700 pages of this topic beating us over the head with how the Wii U is failing was enough but sure I guess we can get yet another rant in there.

[VO.SUPER]

His main point couldn't be more correct, yeah. The sooner everyone accepts the flaws of the system the better.

 

So everyone who disagrees with those points is taking it too seriously then? 

[Wraith]

I thought the last near 700 of topic beating us over the head with how the Wii U is failing was enough but sure I guess we can get yet another rant in there.

 

The last 700 pages have been more one side blaming everything on those meanie third parties and the other saying Nintendo is going to drop dead tommorow. Neither of which are paticularly correct.

 

 

 

 

So everyone who disagrees with those points is taking it too seriously then? 

 

Disagreeing is fine. Argue all you want. People just have the tendency to get very angry at this guy's videos.

[RK64]

I thought the last near 700 of topic beating us over the head with how the Wii U is failing was enough but sure I guess we can get yet another rant in there.

 

So everyone who disagrees with those points is taking it too seriously then? 

 

I didn't mean to start anything with the Mat Pat post ; just thought that seeing his dimension on the Wii U's struggling would be interesting to discus...

 

I don't think Mat Pat is fully right either (the Wii U's situation is much more similar to the N64/GameCube than the VB...) but the idea of innovation over powerful tech is something Nintendo should have handled much better. If the Wii U did some things differently (having tech more similar to the X1, having the second-screen idea be used for make-shift 3DS connectivity, getting more 3rd parties on board, having a stronger VC, ect), it would have been in a much more favorable position at this point with okay 3rd party support (at the level of the GC) and a larger library of games under its belt.

 

Once again, I don't want to spark another "Nintendo is DOOMED!!" discussion, but to share another perspectives views on what many of us have been debating for the past two years..

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Yeah, I don't really agree with this guy and his opinion. If the problem were the core as much it's suggested to be, PS3 wouldn't  have eventually snagged its current prominence. PS2 wouldn't have ruled the 6th gen as it did, and Wii wouldn't have made its big splash of 7th gen.

 

Granted the WIi U's potential for power is still in question, not that many have vied to test it in the first place. 

[RK64]

Yeah, I don't really agree with this guy and his opinion. If the problem were the core as much it's suggested to be, PS3 wouldn't  have eventually snagged its current prominence. PS2 wouldn't have ruled the 6th gen as it did, and Wii wouldn't have made its big splash of 7th gen.

 

Granted the WIi U's potential for power is still in question, not that many have vied to test it in the first place. 

 

I think the core that Mat is trying to talk about is the Gamepad, as many games don't use it outside of Off-TV play. Granted some games do use the gamepad (like Lego City, Nintendo Land, ZombiU, parts of Pikmin 3 and Wonderful 101, Rayman Legends, ect), but many of Nintendo's heavy hitters like Mario Bros U, Mario 3d World, and DKC:TF either barely use the gamepad or don't use it at all.

 

The Wii U's power level is something of a problem (as it makes porting games to the system difficult for 3rd parties; not being on the x86 architecture makes porting them to Wii U hard compared to the implied ease of it to port games to the PS4/X1), but not nearly as much as the GamePad not being used effectivly.

 

Either way, its just important to point out the Wii U's flaws to ensure that the next Nintendo Home Console doesn't repeat he same mistakes as the Wii U.

 

But at least the Wii U has some good games ; Sonic Lost World, Mario 3d World, and DKC: TF are all wonderful games judging from the GameStop demos I've played

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I think the core that Mat is trying to talk about is the Gamepad, as many games don't use it outside of Off-TV play. Granted some games do use the gamepad (like Lego City, Nintendo Land, ZombiU, parts of Pikmin 3 and Wonderful 101, Rayman Legends, ect), but many of Nintendo's heavy hitters like Mario Bros U, Mario 3d World, and DKC:TF either barely use the gamepad or don't use it at all.

That's not so much a flaw of the Wii U as it is the an elucidation of the apparent difficulty people can have actually thinking up something for it. Granted, not all Wii U games necessarily demand the absolute use of the gamepad. 

 

The Wii U's power level is something of a problem (as it makes porting games to the system difficult for 3rd parties; not being on the x86 architecture makes porting them to Wii U hard compared to the implied ease of it to port games to the PS4/X1), but not nearly as much as the GamePad not being used effectivly.

 

In that case, it appears it's more so the architecture than the Wii U's power that might be the problem. I'll be honest when some much of it has been debunked, I don't really buy into the "Wii U is underpowered" bullwarky mantra as fact, nor the reason it's not selling.

 

Also, it really doesn't make it difficult, at least not for competent and effort-giving companies, but it can make it more expensive. 

[RK64]

That's not so much a flaw of the Wii U as it is the an elucidation of the apparent difficulty people can have actually thinking up something for it. Granted, not all Wii U games necessarily demand the absolute use of the gamepad. 

In that case, it appears it's more so the architecture than the Wii U's power that might be the problem. I'll be honest when some much of it has been debunked, I don't really buy into the "Wii U is underpowered" bullwarky mantra as fact, nor the reason it's not selling.

 

Also, it really doesn't make it difficult, at least not for competent and effort-giving companies, but it can make it more expensive. 

 

Those are good points Jovah; not all games have to use the gamepad and 3rd parties saying that the Wii U is hard to develop for is less about its power level but more from it costing more (just look at the Splinter Cell games from the PS2-Xbox-GC era; the PS2 version was made even though the Xbox version was much, MUCH more advanced in comparison...).

 

Its just that there isn't "THE" game that pushes the GamePad like how Wii Sports did for the Wii; the casual game or even the hardcore game that states "ah, now THAT's why there is the gamepad". Granted Wii Party, Game and Wario (as underwhelming as that game is...why wasn't it a WarioWare game ), and Wii Party all show interesting uses of the GamePad but those three games didn't grab people the same way Wii Sports did. I don't know why that was the case, but still, it kinda shows that casuals and gamers alike don't really see the need for the GamePad on the Wii U sadly .

 

Who knows honestly, but at least we will still get great Nintendo games for the Wii U like Smash and Sonic Boom looks really good as well, so it isn't all negativity with the Wii U, just some stop gaps that can be addressed latter on or with the next Nintendo console .

 

[Sami]

That's not so much a flaw of the Wii U as it is the an elucidation of the apparent difficulty people can have actually thinking up something for it. Granted, not all Wii U games necessarily demand the absolute use of the gamepad. 

In that case, it appears it's more so the architecture than the Wii U's power that might be the problem. I'll be honest when some much of it has been debunked, I don't really buy into the "Wii U is underpowered" bullwarky mantra as fact, nor the reason it's not selling.

 

Also, it really doesn't make it difficult, at least not for competent and effort-giving companies, but it can make it more expensive.

It's a cause and effect issue - power alone is not the only reason it isn't selling, no. However, the system absolutely is underpowered compared to the competition (please don't try to deny this, it's fact). This, in turn, means ports are more difficult to do. Ports being more difficult to do means the games will have to have higher sales expectations to be greenlighted. The Wii U hasn't proved profitable, so these games aren't being made. Games aren't being made, so nobody's buying the console.

It's a vicious cycle that could have been avoided if they power-matched the PS4 or XB1. Too late now though.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

It's a cause and effect issue - power alone is not the only reason it isn't selling, no. However, the system absolutely is underpowered compared to the competition (please don't try to deny this, it's fact). This, in turn, means ports are more difficult to do. Ports being more difficult to do means the games will have to have higher sales expectations to be greenlighted. The Wii U hasn't proved profitable, so these games aren't being made. Games aren't being made, so nobody's buying the console.

It's a vicious cycle that could have been avoided if they power-matched the PS4 or XB1. Too late now though.

Doesn't help that the there's nasty third-party trend of crippling Wii U installments.

 

I know Wii U isn't the most powerful system this 8th gen, but I'm not buying the over-exaggerations or BS that companies are becoming a bit too addicted to spewing. 

[Sami]

Doesn't help that the there's nasty third-party trend of crippling Wii U installments.

I know Wii U isn't the most powerful system this 8th gen, but I'm not buying the over-exaggerations or BS that companies are becoming a bit too addicted to spewing.

Well it's not like they're making a conscious decision to "cripple" it. It's the same reason PS3 ports sucked so much ass for a few years - the architecture is weird and different (extremely bad CPU bottleneck in the Wii U's case). Doesn't help that Nintendo never built an ICE Team to show third parties how to program for their system, like Sony did, and really doesn't help that it's severely underpowered.

Also, what exaggerations are you talking about? Could you link an example?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Well it's not like they're making a conscious decision to "cripple" it. It's the same reason PS3 ports sucked so much ass for a few years - the architecture is weird and different (extremely bad CPU bottleneck in the Wii U's case). 

Not really. The architecture is VERY different  from the competition but not alien unfamiliar. It's more expensive though. What's frustrating is how third party tends to put on the act of not getting the point that people don't like to settle for watered down crap, and without a legitimate reason to boot.

 

And even then, that doesn't excuse shit and hijinks like the infamous Rayman Legends debacle, which STILL sold the most on Wii U! The Wii U version actually didn't flounder like we expected it too?! Pfft! Let's just shove that away to excuse continuation of treating Wii U consumers in such a second-rate manner and treat them like them like they don't even exist. 

[Wraith]

Jovah, I get the feeling you are heavily overestimating what the Wii U can do and victimizing third parties as a result.

 

Now, exactly how powerful IS the Wii U? Now, I'm not huge on specs, so someone can clarify for me if this is wrong, but we've heard multiple sources claim it's within the range of the PS3/Xbox 360. Fair enough. This wasn't very unclear even back when it came out so I don't know how it can be now.

 

How much power does the average third party 8th gen game require? Well, rocksteady has came out and said that the Batmobile in Arkham Knight would barely fit inside an Xbox 360. The main vehicle of the game alone is taking so much advantage of the extra power that they literally cannot bring the game back to the 360 without shitloads of extra work and probably cutting a lot of content. Since around the 360 where the Wii U stands, this is where power becomes and issue. Porting is now difficult and takes more resources. It is not a matter of laziness or some Nintendo bias. Games that go big have to make money

 

And even if they did downgrade the games for the Wii U, would it even be worth it? Would Arkham Knight be as good with a stripped down Batmobile, among other things? A smaller overworld? Less features? I wouldn't be happy about that myself. 

 

 

I'd rather just have Wii U exclusive games instead of going down that route. More stuff like Bayonetta 2.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

There's yet to be any actual experimental or sturdy factual proof that the WIi U can't do it.

 

I remember when we used to think that Wii U couldn't pull off a CryENgine game or use DirectX11 because big shots said so.

 

I'm just rather sick of the pre-mature bullwarky mantra that the Wii U version of 8th gen games would have to suck and/or be downgraded, when we've actually had other companies prove otherwise.

 

I'll take the word of people who actually work for their success over those who jump ship without even trying.

 

 

Now, exactly how powerful IS the Wii U? Now, I'm not huge on specs, so someone can clarify for me if this is wrong, but we've heard multiple sources claim it's within the range of the PS3/Xbox 360. Fair enough. This wasn't very unclear even back when it came out so I don't know how it can be now.

 

Also comes to mind, several sources also reported that despite Wii U not having as much power as the competition the gap wasn't nearly as big as the Wii's was from its competition. And that the Wii U wouldn't miss out for legit technological reasons as often either.

 

And such has yet to be dis-proven.

And what's to say that said big shot companies aren't underestimating the power of the Wii U, simply because they're afraid of an architecture not similar to the competition?

 

I'd rather just have Wii U exclusive games instead of going down that route. More stuff like Bayonetta 2.

As would I, but the likes of Ubisoft see fit to muck even that up for the Wii U.

[Wraith]

At one point you're going to have to consider what's financially viable. Honestly? We don't know if all these companies just blew off the Wii U or if they experimented with it and it didn't work. What we DO know is that most multiplatform releases haven't sold well and there IS a powergap. These two things do not mesh well.

 

 

 

Also comes to mind, several sources also reported that despite Wii U not having as much power as the competition the gap wasn't nearly as big as the Wii's was from its competition.

 

And such has yet to be dis-proven.

 

You're missing the point. Despite the gap not being as big as it was last gen, the gap is still significant enough to be constantly pointed out. Add the lack of sales and the weird architecture and that's a BIG hurdle Nintendo's  for third parties to get around. One that Nintendo themselves is resposible for. To some, it's not WORTH trying, and can you really blame them?  It's not like the PS4\XOne gap where graphic comparations are the only things that ever come up as problems.

 

Now, like I said, unique Wii U experiences are something I'm all for, Nintendo just has to sell the thing, which they can totally do.