Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[SkyHorizon]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

Sorry but NICOLE had every opportunity to join the council, assert her position as a ruler of her "own city" or say she didn't agree with it if she wanted to have a voice in government and was interested in making social changes.

Uh, lot of assumptions on your part...

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

1) I'm not understanding how she was being a bitch when none of the other characters seemed like they wanted to do anything about NICOLE being a danger to others and herself and unintentionally aiding Eggman by sacrificing to him their citizens.

 

2) Owing her life to NICOLE doesnt mean anything if NICOLE herself no longer has a life of her own because someone else is controlling her and making her a danger to everyone else. Thats like saying, if someone rescues you they have the right to harm you, whether they mean it or not. Also, again, NICOLE made the choice to let other people govern the kingdom and stay out of politics.

 

3) And lastly, while the Freedom Fighters were off getting support from outside the city, it was MINA who was left cleaning up after NICOLE, trying to rescue as many citizens from legionization as possible. She was one of the only people Freedom Fighting within the city.  Considering the work she had to put in to potentially risk her own life, that "debt" is more than paid.

1) Never tried anything else. Unless you're basing your opinion on assumptions, which unfortunately you tend to do a lot.

2) Nicole was in full control at that time.

3) Nicole was in full control at that time. Mina was left cleaning up after Nicole?!? Lol, another assumption on your part. She wasn't a FF and she wasn't even mentioned by Amy in 210.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

So its pretty much implied Mina spoke to him about it off panel.

Again, your assumption.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

Also, why would he have to reassure people she's back to normal if he wasn't aware on some level they were scared of her?

When someone you know (especially the owner/admin/whatever of the city you live in) is mind-controlled, it's nice that someone tells you: "it's over now".

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

I really don't care if he underestimated the situation.

Sounds more like your shortcoming than anything else, honestly.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

But they kept trying to validate how he was acting and making like the citizens were completely in the wrong for how they were feeling.

"Does she feel it if I stomp the ground?" "I hope so"

Lol.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

I'm not validating anyone. I'm just saying from an objective standpoint, Eggman's the owner of his territory and that within it that would make Sonic and anyone affiliated with him criminals under "his" rules. Thats not to say we have to like the fact he's the owner or agree with his rules but that no, the Freedom Fighters couldn't just take Eggman's land (even if they wanted to argue the Acorns owned it first) without serious consequences. Especially since Eggman himself has allies throughout the world as well they would have to contend with.

Also you're missing the point. I was saying it WASN'T okay for Eggman to lure people into a city and then try and trick people into being Roboticized. Even if he made the city from scratch or not.

My point stands: you're still trying to justify the actions of "Robo-Hitler". And, I repeat, New Mobotropolis fall under the rule of the Acorn Kingdom, so... why are you still arguing on this point?

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

My point was, just because she isn't a criminal doesn't mean people should ignore the dangerous activities she may be forced to engage in again if they don't think of something to protect the city.

And that's why I said that it was right to discuss the problem which was a real problem. Again, what I criticize is the arrogance of the citizens and the bitchiness of Mina.

 

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

gave the copyright away to someone

Again, you're assuming that Nicole gave the "copyright of the city" to the Acorn Kingdom. Never stated anywhere.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

Furthermore, you JUST said that if someone abandons creative control over something its within another person's right to take ownership of it. Thats exactly what the Kingdom of Acorn and the Council did when NICOLE stepped away from taking part in the government.

Glad to discover that in your vision, not taking an active part in a government system means to renounce to your properties. Sounds like a really distorted version of communism, just so you know...

...also, another assumption on your part.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

She never treated anyone like shit or acted like she owned them "willingly". But if she were to be taken control of again that could easily become the case, even if NICOLE herself doesn't want to do those things.

 

I never said in my posts that the problem didn't need to be addressed. Again, we were arguing about the way Mina approached the problem (awfully) and the way the citizens were following her lead. It was something on so many levels of "wrong" that Ian had to justify it by "using" Naugus' magic to grow their feelings out of proportions. And it was so bad that Mina will regret it immediately later (in 222 she is already regretting it). To quoteDr. Detective Mike: 

This is quite the dark state of affairs for our pop star but… I gotta be honest, she’s excelling at being ignorant of how this whole “rallying the people” thing works. 

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

Also, Mina spoke to Sonic because she didn't have access to the council like he did, since this situation happened before her mother joined it. Sonic was the closest person she knew who could talk to them and NICOLE about the situation or give her any idea as to how those in power were thinking. But he chose to do nothing.

Again, your assumption. I already explained to you that sentence that you took as "proof" that Mina talked to Sonic can be interpreted in more ways than one. I, for example, never took it as: "I talked about my concerns to Sonic and he did nothing."

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

NICOLE willfully ignored Mina practicing to make a concert about her where she could see her, and did not not think to intervene, talk to Mina herself, or tell Sonic and Sally, The Council or a Freedom Fighter what was about to happen. The concert could have been avoided entirely if NICOLE just spoke up about it

...and, again, your assumption. The Forget-Me-Knots could have practiced somewhere that wasn't controlled by Nicole. Anyway, from her reaction at the concert, it was quite clear that Nicole DIDN'T KNOW about the content of the concert.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

ask him about the ring he used to protect himself so they could give that to NICOLE..? Why was Sally's intelligence scaled down so dramatically?

Ah, I agree with you on that. At the time I thought the same ("why the Iron Queen just doesn't take control of the nanites?"). It seems evident, but someone pointed out that:

1. They discovered about the technomagic powers of the IQ only later in the arc and could not have made the connections immediately.

2. We read the story from the POV of an omniscient-outsider, I guess living through the story from the inside could be perceived differentely.

...but I agree with you, it was too much convenient.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:28 AM, Rienasketch said:

How did Naugus even get INTO the city without NICOLE even realizing he was there? Why not utilize a disguise? And how did Naugus and Geoffrey know exactly when the concert was taking place and what it would even be about? It made no sense.

I disagree on this part, though. It's been made pretty clear that Nicole isn't omniscient about what happens in every part of the city, she just has the possibility to do it. The access are more controlled, I guess, but Naugus used Shadow-melding to enter so...

As for the concert, Geoffrey dialogue made it clear that it was more like of a stroke of luck.

[Kazhnuz]

I don't remember everything, but is NICOLE really that omniscient ? By that I mean, is her "consciousness" able to know everything at the same time ? I don't remember if it have been explicitly addressed, because we know for sure that she can see everything or nearly everything, but IDR if she is said to be able to process all that at the same time and know all that.

I think that's the part that I really liked in this part, how it explored some effect of having a super-powered AI that control a city, while this AI being a "person". It was an interesting twist on the concept, being able to see the feeling of the computer mainframe being hurt.

[SkyHorizon]

10 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

I don't remember everything, but is NICOLE really that omniscient ? By that I mean, is her "consciousness" able to know everything at the same time ? I don't remember if it have been explicitly addressed, because we know for sure that she can see everything or nearly everything, but IDR if she is said to be able to process all that at the same time and know all that.

I think that's the part that I really liked in this part, how it explored some effect of having a super-powered AI that control a city, while this AI being a "person". It was an interesting twist on the concept, being able to see the feeling of the computer mainframe being hurt.

Yeah, it never was stated, it was an assumption on Rienasketch's part, but never confirmed anywhere.

And absolutely! It was a great plot and was integrated really nicely. I always felt like: "Uh, Flynn decided to made Mina 'the bad guy' to move the plot on. That's fine by me, sounds great!". That's why I feel Mina was totally in the wrong about the way he approached the subject, but the general idea behind it was absolutely legit.

[Kazhnuz]

Well, I would say that she was "wrong", but in a "understandable wrong". She acted due to heavy PTSD/trauma (+ Naugus that amplified the matter) provoked of being trapped in a city where the menace can be every where. Form her experience, being completely terrorized by Iron Nicole (and being like most other character basically a survivor of a totalitarian takedown of her home country), she couldn't trust Nicole, and what she felt as a lack of action made her even more uneasy with Nicole (because she felt the issue wasn't addressed).

I think that the idea of Flynn here was to make a case that good people can do bad things, especially when they're hurt (the famous "hurt people hurt people"). And IMO it felt more natural that the last moment he made that, in the House of Card arc (even tho the arc was shrunk compared of what it should have been, so I won't be to harsh). And that's what I like, that she realize that part after the fact, after the moment where all this made her go "too far" (even from her own perspective), like often when we have that kind of situation. It's after we have hurt people that we have that "oh god no" moment.

 

I honestly loved this plot because I related to both Mina (which should have received help, nobody should let a teen in such distress after a traumatic coup) and Nicole (where it's hard to see everybody going against you for something you had no control of). It's the common situation : the issue should have a pacific discussion understanding the feeling of everybody. But even without Naugus intervention, I'm not sure it would have been possible without a third person having its role (I mean, of course it would have been possible, everything is possible in writing, what I mean is that with the current story, I'm not sure that it would have been in-story a possibility).

[Kuzu]

On 12/26/2021 at 4:53 PM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Sonic Universe - Issue #28: The Silver Saga - Part 4 of 4: Fractured Mirror, The Finale: Picking Up the Pieces

Enerjak’s green lightning almost acts as a slant separating these two on the cover. It’s a very nicely drawn image. There’s no noticeable flourishes that I feel most covers should take in order to stand out but sometimes an image of your hero and villain going at it is all you really need.

It’s time to wrap this up and see what I think of this resolution now that I’m full of that context I needed. It also helps that I actually like Silver a lot nowadays.

  Reveal hidden contents

Writer: Ian Flynn
Pencils: Tracy Yardley
Inks: Jim Amash
Colors: Steve Downer
Letters: Phil Felix
Editor: Paul Kaminski
Editor-in-Chief: Victor Gorelick

The person responsible for the colors in the previous issues was Ray Dillion. However, for this last issue, the colors are being done by a Steve Downer. While the atmosphere is still plenty dark, it feels like it takes a noticeable hit with this change. Everything feels just a touch lighter and the shading isn’t as intense. 

I suppose, thematically, this would make sense since we’re about to get a nice beckon of hope for these people. However, I’ll admit to still preferring how the colors were before. 

Jani-Ca lines up the corpses of her friends and apologizes to them. They will be missed… at least until she can get their cores back.

Silver and Enerjak have a battle of proportions that reminds me of Gurren Lagann’s finale a bit. It’s definitely not on the scale of throwing universes at each other but the scale is still pretty huge. 

Silver tosses a building cut into Jenga pieces at Enerjak.

Meanwhile, Enerjak actually hits Silver with the island.

Just swings it upward. It’s pretty funny. The weight of an entire island hitting you probably wouldn’t be felt FULLY unless it was dropped on top of him. Shooting it up like that probably felt more like the pavement was trying to eat him. Enerjak was most likely just trying to be a dick.

Also, Silver sent him through his statue a bit before that. Enerjak calmly remarks that he liked that statue. Who’s he going to get to build another one? I guess the prelates. He has enough of them right?

Looks like it. Hopefully he downloaded carpentry into their systems.

I’m not even going to try and count the assortment of familiar faces that are here. I’m not even entirely sure these are all who I think they are. That floating dragon could be Dulcy but it could just as well be her son or whatever.

Geez. Now I’m wondering what a 30 year old Charmy would look like. Would he even have a son?

Anyway, Enerjak brings out a shit ton of prelates of all different sizes and characters. Silver is attacked by them all but Jani-Ca cuts into one before it attacks him. Silver almost starts to waste her time with talks of feelings regarding fighting them but she has to remind him that they literally don’t think, feel, or live and the pressing matter of the second coming of Echidna Zeus is more important. 

Silver is pretty pissed about Enerjak hitting him with that island anyway. So, he flies up to him and does a huge, over the top, attack that drags Enerjak through the gravel ground, through dense forests, through a mountain, through the ocean, and then slams him into another island like a hammer.

Silver was so out of it when he did that that he’s stuck in a bit of a crazed frenzy once he’s done. He looks really manic here. But then the fact that he’s Silver creeps back in and he starts going on about how he went too far. He can’t help being a good boy deep down but it’s nice seeing this book present him as someone whose emotions just kind of flip. 

Witnessing him forgetting his original intentions before snapping back to a more composed and less hot-headed guy is a very interesting way to go about handling him. Again, it’s not quite what I like about how he is in the games and IDW nowadays but I can see why Ian felt it necessary to tool around with him. He’s had it pretty rough as far as initial reactions to his character are concerned. I feel like the critics outside the fanbase will largely never forgive him for debuting in Sonic 06. Poor guy.

Then again, I stopped reading or watching reviews from critical outlets back in 2011 so I wouldn’t know.

Anyway, crazy Silver who’s had a taste for blood and death calms his ass down before monologuing about how bad it feels to kill people actually. 

Then Enerjak admonishes him for the real crime he did.

You ain’t all that kid. 

Enerjak floats down and starts firing chaos energy at Silver. The poor boy can barely muster a shield to protect himself. Enerjak then starts going on and on about his ultimate power and how he’s going to make more worlds fall. 

It’s funny because he could have done this at any time when it came to the conquest of other worlds but I guess playing with this ONE group of Freedom Fighters was just that funny to him. He probably found it really odd that they were so gung-ho about fighting him even after he sank all of G.U.N’s ships, turned all their friends into cores, and absorbed Androids 17 and 18.

Of course, all this talking from Enerjak leads to his undoing because it gives Silver time to think. 

The naggy old people appear in his brain again as he recalls all the things they said, proving once and for all that despite his hot head, he’s definitely a good boy who listens to his elders.

This realization hits upon the big thing that I remember being pissed about and ranted about back when I first read the arc.

I didn’t like the conclusion Silver ends up coming up with here at the time.

I think I said some bullshit about how powerful Enerjak was and how his power should be able to override Silver’s unless Silver was in his Super form.

I think the reason I thought this was because Super Sonic had to go toe to toe with Enerjak back in Enerjak: Reborn so I must have felt a similar concept had to be viable with Silver here.

This ignores the fact that Silver had been dragging Enerjak all over the place already of course.

The solution, of course, comes with Silver realizing that he shouldn’t be attacking Enerjak with debris and tossing him all over the place. Instead he should be using the main move he uses in the games where he captures the enemy’s attacks and sends them right back at them.

Compartmentalizing in my head exactly HOW powerful Silver should be in order for him to do this was silly on my part. Not only did I not have enough information about either character’s powers to make that call but I also got WAY too angry about it.

Like, I was REALLY mad when I saw this and I’ll be honest, it’s kind of embarrassing to think about because it really isn’t that big of a deal. This doesn’t even turn out to be the thing that defeats Enerjak, though, the thing that actually does I ALSO got pissed off about but THAT time it was because I didn’t know anything about the Sword of Acorns.

The thing that also bugs me about the way I perceived this back in the day is that, nowadays especially, I fucking HATE conversations about power levels. Sometimes they’re viable. Obviously Master Roshi shouldn’t be beating the shit out of Tien  but for the most part I tend to find worrying about stuff like that to be extremely obnoxious. Fanbases that care that deeply about it to the point of dismissing other, sometimes more interesting characters because they’re not as strong (or they’re perceived as not as strong) is part of why I stopped bothering with discourse on anime and manga on the internet.

I especially hate it when people try to do this for characters that don’t even exist within the same series or universe. There was an idiot on the SEGA Forums that said he didn’t want to get into One Piece purely because he thought Luffy was weak. His comparison was all the characters in Dragon Ball and it’s like… sure? You’re going to have a hard time getting into anything if you’re measuring stick is people who can blow up planets with a single ball of light.

What about the more important stuff like characters, story, world-building, and comedy?

Imagine passing on Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood because Edward Elric wasn’t as strong as Goku. Why would anyone with a brain GIVE a fuck?!

It’s why I also can’t stand that Death Battle shit and why people take it so seriously. 

Me caring at all whether or not Super Silver or regular Silver should have been able to handle Enerjak’s energy feels dumb in hindsight… but I can’t ignore the fact that there is a part of me that DOES still see it as an understandable enough thing to assume since I did witness Super Sonic fighting Enerjak first.

The comic lampshades that here though by even having Enerjak bring up his fight with Super Sonic.

These instances where Silver starts acting like Sonic are becoming harder to let slip by. I don’t know. I’m clearly exaggerating when I say this but the Silver of today feels like the kind of guy who would cry if he accidentally stepped on a flower. 

But yeah, he talks about how super powered beings were just wailing on each other with their power. Silver is just redirecting it back at him. 

I guess this means that regular Silver can hold and toss Super Sonic as well? 

Yeah, I can definitely see where the me from the past was coming from at least. It’s not something I feel was worth as much anger and vitriol as I gave it but there is still a part of me that wonders if the limitation on what Silver can toss should end at super powered beings that can tackle Super Sonic. 

Then again, we’ve never been given a reference for what Silver can’t toss. I assumed Super Silver’s point was that he could grab and toss back attacks from God-like beings with him being in a matching, powerful form but I guess that isn’t true here.

Super Silver never shows up in the Archie Comics so it ends up not mattering of course.

What also doesn’t end up mattering, really, is wondering about whether he should be able to do this or not. Silver was just supposed to provide a distraction and that’s what he did. So, the instant Enerjak lunges at Silver in a rage, having realized that he really should have just killed him the instant he showed up, it becomes the exact instant where he loses.

Enerjak, dude, you’re hubris out does you again. 

You laid the foundation for your defeat and you didn’t get rid of it before they managed to capitalize on it.

This must REALLY suck for you. Being the instrument of your own downfall has got to be the worst feeling in the world.

After yet, another, revised version of the Chaos Emerald chant, this one signifying how the severs are fucking gone, we see a flash of light and the power that was taken has been returned to the heroes.

Her Enerjak form is pretty gaudy and funny to look at.  

Well, either way, she’s got all the power now.

Again, I’m not sure how this all works. She says she’ll never let her father have this power again and smashes the sword when he tries to do this clear and obvious lie about her having taken too much from him and him needing a bit more to help her rebuild. He also says that the madness or whatever left him and blah blah blah.

She smashes the fucking thing right in front of him and his cry of “NO!” really hits you hard. Dude really did just fuck himself.

She still has the power though. I guess what she smashed was what was left over in the sword and most of it is inside her now…?

I really don’t get it entirely but I, at the very least, know that this was what the Sword of Acorns was supposed to do now. I have that frame of reference so I understand why this wasn’t a lazy cop out. 

It does make all the difference because here and now it doesn’t feel all that unsatisfying that things shook out this way. Really, if anything feels rushed, it’s the very very ending where Silver and Jani-Ca say their goodbyes but it’s not like they were super-duper besties or anything.

Although, Jani-Ca is totally feeling like a peppy, happy, different person now that she literally has the power to save everyone and restore the world. She even makes mention of possibly saving her father too. It’s a nice sentiment.

I will make note that this story actually has never directly addressed Enerjak as Knuckles. The narrative makes it clear that’s who he is but they’re very coy about it and I can’t help but wonder if it was done that way to help get the story approved. Perhaps the conditions of Knuckles’ turn to evil was different enough (and not his fault enough) back in Enerjak: Reborn for it to pass whereas here, Knuckles just makes the decision himself to be evil. That might not have gone over well. 

Who’s to say? I don’t know how well they snuck things like that by. They definitely wouldn’t be able to do that nowadays. 

Silver returns to his future, hilariously, one second after he left in the eyes of Edmund. The offer for Jani-Ca to help fix his world is left on the wayside due to the factors of Silver not even knowing what caused his future to turn to ruin and Jani-Ca already having her hands full. Instead, he walks off with Edmund to ask if he can teach him more stuff, freely admitting that he’s got more to learn.

Because what he did learn came in super clutch.

We then end our story on a prelude to the next Sonic Universe arc and the final one involving our favorite green bastard, Scourge the Hedgehog.

I hate these zone cops and their entire thing so much. It’s going to feel cathartic as hell watching their shit get wrecked. 

Still, I’m glad they’ve got prisoners on board that need their attention. I have a feeling they’re going to come in handy. 

Hey, that was the Silver Arc and I’m happy to report I don’t hate it anymore. It’s a great arc. Is it the best one so far like I claimed it was earlier? It might be, honestly. The Tails Adventure and Knuckles: The Return give it a bit of a run for its money but the one special thing about this arc that might allow bias to factor in is how heavy and dark the atmosphere is for most of it. I’m just a sucker for that kind of shit, you know? Even despite the change in the colorist, it never looked bad. I love this style and the way the bleakness was off-set by Silver’s naïve personality. He works wonders for it in a way that he was literally tailor made to navigate through.

I do, admittedly, still finding myself wondering about Silver’s powers and wanting to know what, if any, limitations they may have. 

Archie Sonic the Hedgehog - Issue #223: Chaos and the Crown, Part, One: The Right to Rule

Uh-oh. Mommy and daddy are fighting on the cover which means it’s time to get ye royal divorce proceedings underway. As well drawn as this is, I can’t help but draw attention to just how much slobber and drool is in Naugus’ mouth. Sonic better close his mouth before the projectile spit lands somewhere he doesn’t want it to. Then he’ll catch some sort of horrible Ixis disease or something.

  Reveal hidden contents

Writer: Ian Flynn
Pencil: Ben Bates
Inks: Terry Austin
Colors: Matt Herms
Letters: John Workman
Editor: Paul Kaminski
Editor-in-Chief: Victor Gorelick

We open on Sonic and Sally just talking outside the civic center about hoping things will get better but then they immediately get worse.

Mina is on stage giving her thanks to everyone when Geoffrey bum rushes the stage and hilariously tosses his cloak into Mina’s face while saying the Forget-Me-Knots have woken “us” up.

Nicole is evil and I’ve got the cure everybody! 

The Freedom Fighters try to bum rush him while he’s making his great sales pitch. His profile even has the shit eating grin of one of those door to door salesmen.

This is a wonderful image.

Anyway, the product he’s trying to pitch is Ixis Naugus, who he claims is the true king of this fucking place anyway. Sally and Sonic are understandably shocked since they thought he was Mogul’s drooling pet at a casino somewhere.

Nicole instantly attacks him while he’s busy calling Nicole a threat and a monster. He demonstrates that her abilities won’t work on him thus, in a way, proving that he’s right about being able to stop her from committing her villainous, evil misdeeds. 

What truly gets me is how he says he’ll speak to the council after this to help bring them peace and security. 

I mean, sure, I guess you can try. Might as well, right? The council is the most wishy-washy, unreliable means of trying to acquire security in this city though.

Sally doesn’t really care about any of what he’s saying and sicks Sonic on him.

He could be doing better, we’ll say.

As the cool Sonic fighting stuff is happening, we then transition to the… very unintentionally funny (but perhaps not?) scene where this kingdom’s broken, weird as fuck system keeps them from doing the obvious right thing.

I’d blame the guards more for this but I find it hard to blame them for being confused. I often forget Elias is supposed to be king sometimes.

But then, Geoffrey here says “Who said anything about Elias?” so I guess that should be a no-brainer… 

The guards are confused. I get it. It doesn’t help their image that they’re so useless and come across as dumb to the reader despite that though. 

At the moment, Geoffrey’s words shouldn’t mean anything because they don’t consider Naugus the king. The Freedom Fighters have to take care of it now.

Antoine already doesn’t like Geoffrey. I believe these two had it rough a while back and even brings up that he stole the idea of a rebel underground from his father.

Geoffrey knees Antoine in the gut then does a DBZ instant transmission karate chop to Bunnie’s face, it looks like.

He tries to figure out the plan Sally has when Amy and Tails try to pull a pincer move and ends up kicking the air like a dope because he expected Sally to ambush him. 

Nicole instead just traps him in a bubble now that he’s stopped moving.

Geoffrey’s response to this is “Whoops!”

It’s pretty great.

The others aren’t really paying attention to how nonchalant he was about that and seriously think they’re just going to regroup so they can handle Naugus. 

Nope. ‘Fraid not.

I gotta say, even back in the day when I barely knew Geoffrey and didn’t know much of anything about Ixis Naugus or Ixis magic, this still surprised me. It was clear based on the art and the horrified reactions from Amy and Tails that he was being revealed as some sort of scary monster guy.

He’s a dude with magic powers, really, but the image of him Majin Buu steaming his way out of that ball is pretty intense.

We cut to Eggman suddenly, surprisingly enough (if you didn’t see the cover of #224) and he screams at Snively to be ready for the launch of something in 10 minutes before Lien-Da shows up to confirm that everything is a-go as well. I wonder what could be happening?! OOOO~! Suspense!

Well, I already know, but I’m still more excited for it than I was back then at least.

Meanwhile, Sonic really wants Naugus to hand over the cheat sheet that’ll allow him to beat him.

He is denied.

The council is about ready to deliberate and what to do about the “Nicole situation” and then Naugus does the Vince McMahon strut into the proceedings and shouts “KING ME, BITCH!” like it's the world’s goofiest game of checkers.

Sally and Geoffrey are fighting now and they’re calling each other names and what not.

Geoffrey says he’s always been loyal to the king and the kingdom, they just didn’t specify which king. Sally says he’s not making any sense and Geoffrey says she just doesn’t want him to and that she knows what he’s talking about.

At the time of my reading this back in the day, I had no clue what he meant.  

Sally changes the subject before I can get clarification and asks what Hershey would think of this. 

Geoffrey says “Not much” because she’s dead.

Bomb shell.

I know what the original plan for this was and I do find it incredibly unfortunate that this never came to fruition. Everything about what’s happening with Geoffrey here was, at the time, the most interesting thing I’d read in the comics for a while by that point. I really wanted to know more and see this thing to its natural conclusion. 

Instead, we don’t get a conclusion at all.

Inside the council building, Naugus is having a nice chat with everyone at the elevated table. 

All his words, honestly, make a great deal of sense. If he didn’t have the scary, drooling, monster face he’d probably be a lot more convincing. 

He brings up that Max swore the kingdom to him and thus the kingdom is his. Okay.

Again, I had no idea this had happened since at the point I originally read this, what happened before #142 was an enigma. I also didn’t see SatAM so… yeah, this was all lost on me.

But I liked the development. I wanted to see Naugus become the king because it feels like a cathartic way to see this place get the smattering it deserves.

Most of the council is surprised. Rotor and Hamlin are fucking pissed, which is great. They don’t like each other much but it makes sense that both of their reactions would just be total intolerance for this, at least initially.

Naugus continues talking and is somehow even more convincing. He says that Geoffrey told him everything that happened and that he doesn’t plan on overriding the will of the people or getting rid of the council. He also doesn’t hold a grudge against the Acorn line for keeping his seat warm… I mean, doing what they had to in these trying times.

I kind of wish he had said “in these uncertain times” just to parrot all of those embarrassing corporate commercials that are being made during this pandemic. This was years and years before that but damn it would have been funny.

Despite Naugus being (on the surface) really reasonable here, Elias refuses because of what he did to his shitty dad. The same shitty dad that treated him like shit, mind you, but you know… it’s still HIS shitty dad.

It is kind of funny how everything Naugus is saying here is the exact opposite of what Max was saying. Max rolled his ass away from Elias when he saw the council and yet Naugus is saying he doesn’t wish to disband it or go against the will of the people.

Naugus is also saying he doesn’t hold a grudge against the Acorn line while Max was ready to throw half the city in jail because they had a peaceful protest that one time.

Here’s the thing, I KNOW Naugus is evil and gets his kicks by basking in negative energy and all that jazz but it IS true that the things he’s saying and intending to do, upfront, are more appealing on the surface.

Were I someone looking for a better example of a king in comparison and I didn’t know Naugus was an evil wizard with a scary monster face I’d probably seriously consider him.

… That said, the dude is OBVIOUSLY evil. He absolutely should not be taking the throne.

Sonic bursts in and bonks him on the head, saying that Naugus forgot to crystalize the windows. He then says with a smile on his face that Geoffrey’s a confirmed traitor now and now they know why and he also asks for a magic sword to fight Naugus with so he can vi-pass his weird elements voodoo.

I’ll admit to there being a twinge of annoyance generated here with Sonic, AGAIN, going on about treason again. Even if, in this situation, it’s more outwardly understandable, I can’t separate myself from the part of me that just hates the idea of Sonic being concerned with it at all.

He’s the hero and he’ll do things heroes do for the sake of doing what’s right in my eyes. Both him and Elias are, thankfully, on the same page and he tosses his magic sword to Sonic so he can take care of him.

I’ll admit… I didn’t remember where this magic sword came from. I didn’t believe it’s the Sword of Acorns 2.0 or anything so I looked it up and saw that it was actually the Sword of Revealing Light, given to Elias by Sir Connery before he turned to dust.

So, with the last remaining memento of Sir Connery in hand, Sonic goes to fight the evil bad guy.

Hamlin is so excited for this. He really wanted to be a freedom fighter, you can tell.

I’ll have… opinions on how this shakes out next issue, most definitely. I remember what happening there pissing me off the most I’d ever been pissed off following the comics from month to month.

Not the most pissed off I EVER was. No, that was still House of Cards, but… I remember it being a pretty huge “conversation” on those shitty SEGA forums and a point of personal hatred on my part. 

Don't underestimate my ability to change my mind though. It's happening so often here that it's kind of astonishing.

Archie Sonic the Hedgehog - Issue #223: Special Zone House Call

Writer: Ian Flynn
Pencils: Jamal Peppers
Inks: Terry Austin
Colors: Matt Herms
Letters: John Workman

Eggman has always been one for taking gambles but man is he ever taking a huge one with this.

Dude uses every last watt of energy left over in the city to open a portal to the Special Zone and heads inside with Snively. He says they’ve only got one try at this which delighted me because it gave me Adventure 2 flashbacks.

They go inside and Feist offers his challenge to get the emerald. Eggman is happy to accept and shouts, “You’re on!”

Snively has to think about it and eventually does shout “You’re on!” too. 

It’s a pretty adorable scene if you ignore the bit just before it where Snively only accepted because he figured that if he won he could leave Eggman stranded here and go off to save Regina.

It’s a pretty short race but Eggman manages to handedly beat Snively and snag the emerald.

Then Feist tries to play emotional puppet master with Eggman of all people.

“BITCH! I came for the Chaos Emerald! Why would I leave it behind?! DO YOU LOGIC MUCH????!”

We don’t even see the scene where Feist hands the emerald to Eggman after being demanded he give it to him. We just cut to Eggman leaving with it in his possession, which is way funnier.

Then he does the best thing ever (amongst a ton of best things he’s ever done) and simply presses a button to bring Snively back since “No one denies Dr. Eggman anything”.

Bitch-Made Feist. That should be his new nickname.

I don’t envy the poor fucker who tries to go in there for another emerald after THIS. Holy shit, that has to be the worst one for him.

That final panel is of Snively just lying there, soaking in the fact that he not only lost to Eggman again but also had to suffer the crushing fear of being trapped in that place himself and ON TOP OF THAT was SAVED by Eggman too!

Jesus. That’s like a 3-Point Combo Breaker in the span of not very many pages. He might as well have shot him in the nose while he was on the fucking floor.

I’d love to see Sonic and Tails in this same exact situation. Tails doesn’t get the urge to prank Sonic often I’d assume but if he beat Sonic in that pod race and said “THE EMERALD OBVIOUSLY!” the look on Sonic’s face as he left him behind only to be brought back a second later by the zappy thing Eggman did probably would have been worth it.

He wouldn’t be so cruel but I’d get a kick out of it.

This was a great prelude to the disaster that’s about to come. Honestly, I found myself getting really excited for all the bits where they got to start talking this time. This is the part of the story where every conversation these characters start to have will begin to function as something more meaningful. It’s a great way to gauge just how strong the motivations driving the actions of some of these people truly are… and in some cases, what you find out may disappoint you. Or it may excite you. Depends on who you are and what you appreciate about these characters, really.

Archie Sonic the Hedgehog - Issue #224: Chaos and the Crown, Part Two: Total Authority

This cover is epic. It’s hard to make an Eggman centric cover and have it not be epic, of course, but holy moly does it not do a well done job of getting you excited? Well, from what I recall happening in this issue, I can’t say that I’m eager to see what’s in store since I’ll probably break into a controversial rant against our heroes here. Hopefully not. 

Oh boy. I’m actually a bit nervous. I hope having not read this in well over a decade changes my mind. Let’s do it then.

  Hide contents

Writer: Ian Flynn
Pencils: Ben Bates
Inks: Terry Austin
Colors: Matt Herms
Letters: John Workman
Editor: Paul Kaminski
Editor-in-Chief: Victor Gorelick

Naugus tells Sonic to fuck off and Sonic responds by saying that he won’t because he’s ugly and he’s evil. Even though only one of those things matter, it’s enough for Naugus to get pissed and shoot fire at Sonic, claiming that the sword he has is fake and that he saw the real one get destroyed.

It doesn’t work because it’s the Sword of Light and it wards off magic.

The way the dialogue is done here is weird, admittedly. Sonic says he’s got the Sword of Acorns on the first page, prompting Naugus to say he saw it destroyed and that it’s a fake. When Sonic blocks the attack, then he amends his statement to say that Elias promoted the Sword of Light.

I didn’t quite know why it was said like that. Sonic doesn’t have the Sword of Acorns in his hands so why not call it the Sword of Light, I thought.

It took me a minute to realize that when Sonic said the Sword of Light was “promoted” he means it was dubbed the new Sword of Acorns.

That makes more sense. I just wish it were clarified a bit better because I recognize these two swords as different things. If Elias dubbed it the new Sword of Acorns after Sir Connery’s death then I don’t remember that. It was so long ago at this point.

Regardless, it doesn’t really matter because the fight these two are about to have is going to amount to nothing in a bit.

We cut back to Geoffrey who’s got this whole situation on lockdown really. Sally tells him that they still gave him the benefit of the doubt and Geoffrey says they’re too kind. Nice way to brush that off.

He then says that Naugus is going to meet with the council and make sure the people are finally safe.

So, by this point, Geoffrey has been pretty concise and made his intentions clear. He wishes to keep the people safe and all that jazz, he’s just going about it the wrong way. It’s a story we’ve seen before but done well you can get a lot of mileage out of it.

Uhm, so Sally kind of just ignores the subtext there and seriously tries to claim Geoffrey is a murderer. 

Geoffrey is understandably shocked by the accusation and the crazed look on Sally’s face with the sharp teeth doesn’t help.

Sally’s response that Geoffrey said so himself by just saying “Hershey’s dead” honestly, truly, legitimately made me really upset. Like it did back then it kind of does now too.

I mean, I get that she feels betrayed because Geoffrey wants to make the kingdom safe using underhanded means and the help of an evil wizard. I get that but there’s a big pitfall of logic she needed to leap over to come to the conclusion that Geoffrey voluntarily offering up the information that Hershey was dead meant he was actually saying he killed her.

It’s fucking weird. If he was truly evil enough to murder her, why wouldn’t he just ACTUALLY say that he killed her instead? I guess she was just overcome by the emotional turmoil of the situation but man it really does sting despite that.

He also has no reason to lie about this. He’s already betraying you guys in your eyes right? 

Geoffrey also informs them that she died fighting the Eggman Empire and that they’re currently belittling her sacrifice. 

I know what the arguments in favor of what Sally is saying here are going to be but it's extremely hard to care. I still don’t like that she jumped to that conclusion. Lacking in information or not, it just feels really scummy and cruel in a manner that Geoffrey himself hasn’t enacted just yet despite this situation.

As this is happening, Eggman plugs his Sonic-Blue Chaos Emerald into the core of his, now, mysterious device and immediately gets a strong power generating from it.

Things are going well for them. I’m so happy they’re having fun.

We then cut back to Sonic who is currently in the middle of a deep, philosophical and political debate with Ixis Naugus.

Can’t argue with that. 

Sonic tells Naugus that because he’s an evil wizard, no amount of “playing nice” is going to get them to listen to him. 

Naugus tells Sonic to butt out since it’s not up to him, launching him and the sword away… which is promptly grabbed by Elias and swung at Naugus in a few panels displaying how cool he can be himself!

The mention of Naugus having a family makes me wonder what Mama Naugus looks like. 

Of course, we know he’s only getting on one knee, holding out his hand, and offering to “PLEASE STOP THE FIGHTING” because he knows it won’t look good if he invades the castle and gores the King with his magic crystals.

That’s something that our dear friend Amadeus should have realized back in House of Cards. I still can’t get over how fucking shit that plan of his was.

Anyway, it’s now an appropriate time to talk about the fact that despite his position and use in the story amongst the council in the past, I’ve always liked Hamlin as a character.

I appreciated that there was just a member on the council who was there to serve the purpose of clear and obvious push-back to overcome in a manner that felt more “You’re SUPPOSED to hate this guy” as opposed to how the others collectively operated where it just felt like they were getting in the way with the excuse of being diplomatic.

I also really liked Dylan a lot because he seemed like the one who was always unsure of the bad shit the council tended to get up to. He didn’t really falter when it was time to make a good decision. I appreciated and empathized with it.

I also really like Rotor a lot. His standing as a Freedom Fighter did, unfortunately, get to a point where it felt redundant and thus, his new standing as a council member does tend to help elevate his status in the book a bit. 

Despite appreciating that the council has a mixture of people who should want to be help us out like Rotor and Uncle Chuck, those who teeter on the edge sometimes like Dylan, wildcards like Rosemary, and those who just want to be a fucking dick like Hamlin… I never really SAW them as something that felt like it was being capitalized on correctly.

As a collective, they were just in the fucking way.

However, we’ve reached a point where they’re intentionally being written as in the way not for the sake of slowing the plot to a crawl and making a situation concerning the main plot harder to get to… but to actually ADVANCE the main plot.

This IS the main plot. As such, when grape-flavored duck lady does this shit…

… it’s like, holy hell, that’s really interesting despite it being a very annoying thing to have happen for the heroes. 

Now, I should clarify… it’s interesting because she’s wrong, in my opinion.

I don’t think Dylan, Hamlin, and Rotor should have been stopped from charging in to defend the city because it matches what I’ve been saying this entire time about how I prefer my Sonic Heroes to operate.

They see a bad guy, they take him down; that’s it.  Fuck the council, fuck authority, and fuck the law. That’s how Sonic (and yes, even Tails, especially in SA2 when he fucked up G.U.N’s fleet of robots on Prison Island to break his friend out of prison) operate.

They didn’t consider due process or whatever. Who cares? “There’s always a lot of police around when you don’t need ‘em” Sonic says.

However, the fact that there’s an obstacle here to stop that from happening generates conflict in a way that’s beneficial to this politically charged plot. It wouldn’t generate conflict for a plot about Enerjak returning and destroying everything. All sitting and waiting for the council to give Sally the okay to go out with her team did for that story was waste time.

What’s even better is that when Duck lady tells Hamlin that she’ll bring him up on charges for doing this, Hamlin gets mad at for this and she has to remind him that he set up the precedent with Sally back in #197. It’s hilarious because it does lend credence to the fact that he was clearly more concerned with giving Sally a hard time back then if he’s willing to do this himself to protect the kingdom… but at the same time I sort of, kind of admire him for it. XD

Honestly, this whole PAGE delighted the fuck out of me! 

I HAD SO MUCH FUN READING THIS PAGE YOU GUYS! YOU HAVE NO IDEA!

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT FIGHT! FIGHT!

SOMEBODY THROW IN THE STEEL CHAIR!

I absolutely lost my shit when Rosemary was like “Weeeeelllll… the constitution doesn’t specify WHO has to be king” and Rotor flips the fuck out with the anime intensity of a 1000 suns, popping up beside her.

It’s so great!

Now, to be fair, I did notice that glowing emerald stick and the bad juju emanating from it in Naugus’ hand. He’s no doubt using his powers to bring their negative aspirations to the surface here. 

However, the fact of the matter is (and this is what I love about Naugus’ powers here) is that he doesn’t create feelings that weren’t there. This is all stuff that’s under the surface already. How much of this is his fault, I don’t exactly know and that’s wonderful.

Look at how steamed Uncle Chuck is. Look at how Rosemary narrows her eyes as she responds to what he has to say. It’s so great that a person like this is Tails’ mom too. This is so fascinating. I’m in love with this issue so far.

Eggman asks what stage one for the launch is at and is told 15%. Eggman says to begin the countdown now. Snively is about to ask if they should wait until stage one is at a higher percentage but Eggman the Impatient is too excited and tells him to shut up. They begin the countdown and we see it happening on the next couple of pages.

Geoffrey is outside jobbing Tails and putting him into a chokehold. Sally tells Geoffrey to stop because if he says he’s innocent and that Naugus is in the right then he should stand down and let justice take its course.

Geoffrey… agrees and stops fighting. Nice.

Sally then goes over to Nicole who is scooping up the crystal that is scattered along the ground and laments at the fact that these nanites are fucking dead.

Yeah, Naugus’ magic is some freaky shit. Normally they can be rebuilt but he straight up changed these ones. She can’t fix these. 

Scary.

Even scarier is how the citizens witness this and start talking about how Naugus COULD actually protect them because his magic can destroy the nanites.

Nicole is just shell-shocked man. It’s hard not to feel sorry for her.

Also, that conversation at the bottom panel is interesting. Someone asks if Geoffrey’s a hero and someone else points out that he worked for Max so maybe he’s right?

It is funny that they’re saying that Geoffrey working for Max means he’s trustworthy which… it doesn’t. It would mean the exact opposite as far as I’m concerned. However, the citizens aren’t that in the know about the King’s machinations so it makes sense that they’d consider that to be a plus in a sense. 

What's also hilarious is how no one thinks it's odd that Geoffrey, despite working for King Max, is firmly on the side of Naugus being the king and not Max's son Elias. God, I feel so sorry for Elias as well.

We then cut back to the council scene where Sonic is getting in on the arguing too. He’s stopped fighting to complain about the fact that they’ve stopped fighting which is the kind of irony that I can only appreciate with a chef’s kiss.

Hamlin, despite being all for doing what Sonic did earlier, can’t fucking handle the idea that his authority is being challenged again and thus his ideals to protect the kingdom are overridden by personal vendettas yet again. Never change.

However, the absolute BEST part is the bottom panel where Naugus is just standing by Elias, smiling, and saying “Hey now, doesn’t anyone think poor baby Elias should have a say in what happens to the crown?”

Meanwhile, Elias is standing there looking all sad. It’s almost like those clothes on him double as a baby romper or something.

By now Elias’ authority has been undermined so much that a scene like this with Naugus reminding everyone fighting over the seat of power that Elias is technically the king feels so deliciously appropriate. Naugus might be a literal troll but he’s the best one ever made. 

Sonic begs Elias to not consider it but Elias asks Naugus if he will honor the council if he steps down. Naugus already said that he would directly to Elias’ face but he replies that he seeks only the crown. He will honor the council and the will of the people… and then slyly says, “Just like SOME Freedom Fighters should.”

That look of “That’s right! I’m SO much better than you right now. Who’s the cock of the walk in this room? Not fucking you, bitch!”

Sonic snatches the sword from Elias’ hand and is adamant about shoving it right through Naugus’ neck.

Elias tries to stop Sonic because (and thankfully Elias has a more understandable point than the other council members here) he just wants the conflict to end peacefully.

Fact of the matter is, they can’t really risk having yet another cataclysmic event happen on their doorstep with the people so restless. It’s understandable that Elias would prefer Sonic just chill out and wait for him to think of a plan to remove him without riling up the ire of the people… especially if Naugus is intending to at least play at honoring the council and the will of the people (for now). 

Elias doesn’t realize how right he is either because there’s a countdown to ANOTHER cataclysmic event that’s about to happen ANYWAY that he isn’t aware of.

Sonic is completely certain of what he wishes to do… I think? He wastes a lot of time talking about it instead of just doing it which gives Naugus enough time to play the “BUT YOU’RE COMMITTING TREASON” card!

I hated this SO much back in the day. 

I couldn’t tell you how vitriolic and angry I was reading this part. I didn’t care that the council and the king were open to it. I just cared that Sonic gave a shit about the fact that he’d be committing treason to do this.

Again, I was used to the version of Sonic that would just do what he thought was right and damn the consequences if people didn’t like it. It makes sense that this version of Sonic, who has been shown to care more about his standing among the people, would be worried about being called a traitor for fighting this hard to go against the uh… “will” of the council and the kingdom.

But that was my opinion back then. What do I think of this moment now?

Well, truthfully, I still don’t like it really… but I understand it a bit more at the very least. It’s not making me frothing mad like it did back in the day. I pointed out that despite all of Sonic’s chatter and talk about the fact that he was totally going to fight Naugus off… he didn’t really do it. I mean, he did AT FIRST. They totally were just fighting, which I appreciate, but then he stopped when he realized other people didn’t agree. My opinion back in the day was that he shouldn’t care if other people agreed and just do the thing anyway. 

After all, this was a guy who shrugged at kicking a king off his throne and said “I can’t be the good guy all the time” in Black Knight. I had seen this situation before done the exact opposite way in the games so compartmentalizing the fact that these were two different Sonics was a lot tougher for me.

I remember that being a point of contention not just among me either. We were kind of annoyed on those old forums that he was wasting time trying to talk people down instead of just immediately doing the hero thing. Even when he grabs the sword from Elias he just points it at Naugus and keeps talking.

However, on the flip side, Naugus isn’t TRYING to fight. That’s the first thing to consider here. In fact, he didn’t attack anyone. Every time he’s landed a hit on someone it’s been an act of self-defense. Both Sonic and Elias attacked him first and he keeps insisting that’s not what he’s here to do. One could argue that it was appropriate for them to do so since he broke into the castle to say all this but it’s still important to think about it. 

So yeah, Sonic insisting that’s what HE wants to do CAN come off a bit like he’s being an asshole.  Especially after Elias tried to give him a rational reason for why they should at least play along for now. 

I’m more open to the idea of this being a story beat because it’s interesting. While it’s hard to push down the part of myself that expects Sonic to just beat Naugus up with all the things the others are saying not registering it’s also important to note that Sonic doesn’t ever fully back down here either.

Yes, it’s true, he’s not doing the thing BUT he’s still resisting. I think that’s the thing that me and a lot of the other people who got angry at this didn’t consider hard enough. 

There were people who were pissed at the council too but I don't really remember those arguments. Hating the council was just a given so there was nothing special to pay attention to at the time.

As Eggman’s latest monstrosity takes flight, Sonic ironically says that if it were Eggman standing here they wouldn’t be giving him such a hard time.

Naugus chimes in by saying that Julian is his enemy too. Sonic gets angry at him and tells him to shut up in three different ways.

Elias tries to grab the sword from Sonic and begs him to please let the government handle this government matter. Sonic is resistant to it. He’s not even letting Elias, the king, take his sword back. 

Yeah, you got to give Sonic that at least. It definitely was not as bad as we were making it out to be. 

Before they can finish their squabbling, the ground shakes.

Sonic, thinking it was a magically generated earthquake, blames it on Naugus but Naugus says it wasn’t him.

These two are great. They’ll make quite the splash when they finally get married.

Anyway, they head outside and we get a bunch of shots of the people within the city looking on in horror as the latest in Eggman’s evil machinations rises over the horizon.

Say hello to the new, actually egg-shaped, DEATH EGG.

It’s smaller and sleeker and has a very cool redesign. 

Although, I must say that because of what I perceived it’s size to be here it felt a little less intimidating as a result. I still have that feeling now as a matter of fact but perhaps I’ll feel differently as things move along. Lord knows I’ve been surprised by the changes to my thoughts on a lot of these things so far.

THIS was an excellent issue. I love how entertained I was by that. There is nothing I love more (when it’s done right at least) than witnessing a bunch of people who are supposed to be on the same side arguing amongst one another while our villain stands off to the side with the best shit eating grin he can muster on his face to either watch or chime in with the occasional snide comment every once in a while. It was great. It hit all the buttons it needed to for me and made perfect utilization of the council. That’s only happened… once before for me and that was the issue that was referenced in this issue with #197.

I love it when the council makes conflict happen for the story in a way that feels more organic and not in ways that just slow things to a crawl or make things needlessly complicated in ways that aren’t fun. I love complications in the plot but not when it’s pointless. This was a fantastic way of going about it. 

On top of that, the looming, oncoming threat of Eggman as exemplified by the countdown in the background just made the tension spike. Nothing better than to be in the thick of something bad only to know at the back of your mind that something worse is on it’s way. 

It’s great. As I keep saying, I didn’t expect my opinion to flip-flop so much on these once hated developments of mine but ten years and knowledge of what the book was like before really does do a lot to transform your state of mind. I still have my reservations on Sonic but even then I didn’t recall him putting up that much of a fight. That was probably due to my own opinion on what he should have done making the reality of what he actually did worse when it wasn’t necessary. 

This has been a fascinating experience. I’m so glad I did this, you guys.

 

One thing I appreciate now that I couldn't ten years ago reading this; I love how Sonic is forced to concede here. Fucking absolutely love it. I understand why people were so pressed by it, since Sonic's the hero and we just kind of assume that he's always in the right no matter what actions he takes, and generally speaking the series is written in a way to prove him right. 

But man, I love stories where the Heroes' usual methods just will not work, and not in the "I just have to change my fighting strategy" type of way that most Battle Shonen use. No, this is a legitimate political issue that Sonic simply cannot just spin dash and everything will work out. While I get it since this is ultimately a children's product and kids expect simplistic morality, or just have a big bad villain for Sonic to punch in the face, I very much love it when alternative, non-violent methods, need to be taken in order for a resolution to be achieved. 

And Sonic has to fucking eat that, or be a traitor to his own kingdom. Love it. The only way it could have been better is if Sonic did defy Elias and the latter was forced to brand him a criminal for it, or exile him from the Kingdom for insubordination to the King. Ahhhh, it's so delicious. 

 

This is the type of shit I love to read in stories; conflicts where both sides have merit and cannot be solved with simplistic methods, without making things worse. 

[Rienasketch]

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

Uh, lot of assumptions on your part...

Thats not an assumption thats a fact. She had every opportunity to attempt joining the council or attempt asserting creative control over the city when the Acorns took it back over prior to them but she chose not to. So her trying to usurp control now would still be unethical because its still inviting people into a territory under the pretense they have certain rights they don't actually have.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

1) Never tried anything else. Unless you're basing your opinion on assumptions, which unfortunately you tend to do a lot.

2) Nicole was in full control at that time.

 

NICOLE was not in full control the entire time. She still lost her free will, and even when Sonic and Sally helped her get it back, had to hide it because the Iron Queen could still overpower her if she found out. Towards the end of the final battle, the Iron Queen was still able to override her enough to where she could fight back, and NICOLE was struggling to contain her by her own admission.

 

So regardless of whether or not you want to argue NICOLE had technical free will, the security threat she put everyone under rendered Mina to have to clean up after her regardless.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

Again, your assumption.

Lets play devil's advocate for a moment. Even if you want to argue that there's only 2 logical scenarios that could have happened. Mina either spoke to Sonic directly, or other people did, and Sonic made a public statement because he knew people were afraid. And in either case, it would have been pointless for Mina to have spoken to him anyway because he'd made his stance clear. So pick your poison, either way, she knew she wasn't going to get anything out of talking to Sonic.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

When someone you know (especially the owner/admin/whatever of the city you live in) is mind-controlled, it's nice that someone tells you: "it's over now".

 

This is still an admission to being aware people are afraid of her, though. So it doesn't change anything.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

Sounds more like your shortcoming than anything else, honestly.

I don't see how its a shortcoming to say him brushing off people's emotional trauma including NICOLE's was insensitive. He underestimated the situation because he only looked at things from his own perspective and didn't take the time out to empathize enough with the people around him. Then wants to stomp around and scream issues later when it blows up in his face. Don't get me wrong, thats in character for Sonic and I don't inherently see this as a bad thing, but the story doesn't treat it as much like its an actual flaw.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

"Does she feel it if I stomp the ground?" "I hope so"

Lol.

They aren't wrong for being angry, even if I don't personally agree with how some of them reacted. These people just lost family and loved ones, are grieving and their heroes and government are doing nothing about it. Nor are they doing anything to ensure it doesn't happen again. I've already acknowledged the prospect of people wanting to terminate NICOLE was extreme, but even if I disagree, I can empathize with where they were coming from. And even if the way they reacted wasn't always constructive, Sonic wasn't any better. At least their ignorance could be excused on some level because of Naugus manipulating their emotions.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

Again, you're assuming that Nicole gave the "copyright of the city" to the Acorn Kingdom. Never stated anywhere.

Glad to discover that in your vision, not taking an active part in a government system means to renounce to your properties. Sounds like a really distorted version of communism, just so you know...

 

Lets not play semantics here. The fact she got banished to begin with is an omission she sacrificed whatever authority she could have had to the royal family and its citizens. The fact they had an election to create a council is another. NICOLE has no rights as a legal authority figure because she sacrificed them. Thats not to say I support the premise she lacks rights as a citizen. You're the one making assumptions here.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

 

My point stands: you're still trying to justify the actions of "Robo-Hitler".

 

 

How? Me acknowledging that he's the leader and owner of his own, dictated, conquered territories doesn't mean I'm justifying his actions. If anything I was saying luring people into a city under false pretenses the way Eggman did initially with the Overlanders was unethical. And that NICOLE wouldn't be any different from Robotnik if she tried to assert authority now that she willingly gave up. I don't know how you got me "justifying robot-hitler" from that.

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

And that's why I said that it was right to discuss the problem which was a real problem. Again, what I criticize is the arrogance of the citizens and the bitchiness of Mina.

 

I'm not seeing how they were arrogant or how Mina was being a "bitch" for having legitimate reasons for being afraid of NICOLE. Especially after these people just lost their family and loved ones to a totalitarian government.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

 To quoteDr. Detective Mike: 

This is quite the dark state of affairs for our pop star but… I gotta be honest, she’s excelling at being ignorant of how this whole “rallying the people” thing works.

 

I'll agree with Detective Mike on that one. Mina's signature flaw this arc was that she wasn't clear enough about what exactly it was she wanted the government to do and what actions they should take. But I wouldn't call her a bitch for that, anymore than Knuckles gets misguided to sometimes fight against Sonic and other heroes. Exiling or terminating NICOLE was never her goal, but because she didn't have a set goal in mind -- at least, not one the citizens could see they drew their own conclusions and cast her out. What was irresponsible of her was complaining the government lacked a plan, but not displaying one of her own in a timely fashion. That, I can agree with.

But the others were also irresponsible. It shouldn't have taken Mina making a concert for the Freedom Fighters and government to get up off their asses to do something about it. And even then, I chalk a lot of that up to OOCness. Because I could never see Sally just ignoring the fact NICOLE and the citizens need to be protected and not looking for a way to do that. Especially when the resources were already there. All they needed was a power ring and they already have the means to generate those. Furthermore there were several other characters like Chuck, Rotor, Bernadette and Jules (whose power rings gave them free will) who knew how this worked -- two of whom worked on the council. So how was it hard to just implement that and tell people thats how they were choosing to solve the problem? The logic of the story and several characters bent over backwards for the sake of the plot. And thats one of the glaring flaws I had with this entire arc. Too many plotholes and too many characters were dumbed down to magically forget the resources they had available to make quick and easy solutions for the sake of stirring up drama.

Granted the basic premise of the Acorns getting more political rivals while juggling their own internal struggles was interesting on the surface. But using NICOLE to push Naugus who already had a history of brainwashing citizens wasn't the answer. And that also begged the question why none of the royal guard pointed out Naugus had that ability.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

The Forget-Me-Knots could have practiced somewhere that wasn't controlled by Nicole. Anyway, from her reaction at the concert, it was quite clear that Nicole DIDN'T KNOW about the content of the concert.

Mina not only practiced within the city she even explained her plans in it.

 

 

And made it very clear they were in an area that wasn't protected.

Furthermore, read my last posts. Mina also says NICOLE was EVERYWHERE in the city. And still is. there's no way she couldn't have known what was happening. I agree NICOLE's reaction suggests she didn't know, but I have to call this plothole out. Flynn can't just say NICOLE is everywhere and then make it so she conveniently isn't to spur drama. Its one or the other. Logically, NICOLE would have learned early on and her and Mina would have had a chat ages ago. Or at the very least, Mina would have been smart enough to tell the band and practice outside the city. But even she's dumbed down.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

Ah, I agree with you on that. At the time I thought the same ("why the Iron Queen just doesn't take control of the nanites?"). It seems evident, but someone pointed out that:

1. They discovered about the technomagic powers of the IQ only later in the arc and could not have made the connections immediately.

2. We read the story from the POV of an omniscient-outsider, I guess living through the story from the inside could be perceived differentely.

...but I agree with you, it was too much convenient.

I think my other issue with this is, they already knew Magic Rings protected free will from characters like Khan, Jules, and Bernadette (whose magic wedding bands protected them). So given the risk of Eggman or someone else finding a way to hack into the system -- especially after what happened to Tommy, it just doesn't make sense why rings weren't given to NICOLE sooner so that she could better protect herself. Even if they didn't know about the IQ's abilities there's no reason why NICOLE should have been in that vulnerable situation to begin with given the kingdom's OTHER threats, and is yet another example of plot convenience.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

I disagree on this part, though. It's been made pretty clear that Nicole isn't omniscient about what happens in every part of the city, she just has the possibility to do it.

 

 

Where was this made clear?

 

On 1/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, SkyHorizon said:

The access are more controlled, I guess, but Naugus used Shadow-melding to enter so...

As for the concert, Geoffrey dialogue made it clear that it was more like of a stroke of luck.

 

1) At some point Naugus stopped shadow melding to enter the kingdom. At which point, he should have been detected, especially given his close proximity to NICOLE's physical form.

 

2) HOW did Geoffrey and Naugus know Mina was going to sing about NICOLE to manipulate people's feelings out of proportion to begin with? Mina didn't tell anyone outside the people in her house. And after how much of a jerk Geoffrey was to her in the earlier issues I see no reason why Mina would confide with him at all. Was there spy that they were working with? That could have worked, but on its own that is just WAY too much plot convenience.

 

Nevertheless the premise of the arc is interesting, I'll give Flynn that much. It'd be a fun re-write at least.

[Razule]

I assume that even though NICOLE's nanites are everywhere, and she could pop up anywhere at any time, she isn't actively watching literally everyone and everything. That would be very creepy. Like, I don't think Nicole is looking into people's private homes.

[Rienasketch]

2 minutes ago, Razule said:

I assume that even though NICOLE's nanites are everywhere, and she could pop up anywhere at any time, she isn't actively watching literally everyone and everything. That would be very creepy. Like, I don't think Nicole is looking into people's private homes.

 

Damn you read that fast? LOL, I aint hatin'!

But playing devil's advocate a moment, even if thats what we want to argue, the citizens assume she can see them.

Also lets look at Mina's comments again.

 

Mina's acting on the assumption NICOLE CAN see her. And will probably know what she's planning. Unless thats a major plothole thats the only explanation. So when people have made their discomfort clear and they don't see NICOLE or anybody else addressing what can be done about it, thats naturally going to look like an admission of guilt. Or worse, indifference.

[SkyHorizon]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:33 AM, Kazhnuz said:

Well, I would say that she was "wrong", but in a "understandable wrong". She acted due to heavy PTSD/trauma (+ Naugus that amplified the matter) provoked of being trapped in a city where the menace can be every where. Form her experience, being completely terrorized by Iron Nicole (and being like most other character basically a survivor of a totalitarian takedown of her home country), she couldn't trust Nicole, and what she felt as a lack of action made her even more uneasy with Nicole (because she felt the issue wasn't addressed).

I think that the idea of Flynn here was to make a case that good people can do bad things, especially when they're hurt (the famous "hurt people hurt people"). And IMO it felt more natural that the last moment he made that, in the House of Card arc (even tho the arc was shrunk compared of what it should have been, so I won't be to harsh). And that's what I like, that she realize that part after the fact, after the moment where all this made her go "too far" (even from her own perspective), like often when we have that kind of situation. It's after we have hurt people that we have that "oh god no" moment.

 

I honestly loved this plot because I related to both Mina (which should have received help, nobody should let a teen in such distress after a traumatic coup) and Nicole (where it's hard to see everybody going against you for something you had no control of). It's the common situation : the issue should have a pacific discussion understanding the feeling of everybody. But even without Naugus intervention, I'm not sure it would have been possible without a third person having its role (I mean, of course it would have been possible, everything is possible in writing, what I mean is that with the current story, I'm not sure that it would have been in-story a possibility).

I agree with what you said 100%

@Rienasketch Well, sorry, but my answer will resume to... YOUR ASSUMPTION. In fact, I don't think you really realize it, but you tend to assume as absolute truth your own interpretation of things.

Half of your reasoning is based on the assumption that Nicole is omniscient... which is clearly not and you keep referring to sentences that DON'T STATE THAT ("...but she's everywhere and everything" doesn't mean that knows what's going on in that part of his "body" if you want to put it that way). One more example? Scourge visiting Sonic home at night.

...and the other half is based on the assumption that she talked to Sonic or someone else, WHICH WAS NEVER STATED ANYWHERE ("Sonic says she's back to normal" doesn't mean that they discussed about the possibility of losing control again).

So, yeah, every argument I can bring is moot because you based all of your reasoning on those two flawed assumptions.

[Rienasketch]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:21 PM, SkyHorizon said:

I agree with what you said 100%

@Rienasketch Well, sorry, but my answer will resume to... YOUR ASSUMPTION. In fact, I don't think you really realize it, but you tend to assume as absolute truth your own interpretation of things.

 

How else would Mina know Sonic response to the situation was him SAYING NICOLE is back to normal if they hadn't previously spoken about it? You realize your also making an assumption by arguing Mina didn't talk to him, right? It just sounds to me like you want to absolve Sonic and the main cast of any responsibility towards the ambivalence towards the public they claim they serve.

 

On 1/4/2022 at 1:21 PM, SkyHorizon said:

Half of your reasoning is based on the assumption that Nicole is omniscient... which is clearly not and you keep referring to sentences that DON'T STATE THAT ("...but she's everywhere and everything" doesn't mean that knows what's going on in that part of his "body" if you want to put it that way). One more example? Scourge visiting Sonic home at night.

I clearly said Mina was at the very least acting based on the ASSUMPTION NICOLE is omniscient. So you can't call her a "bitch" for not talking to her, when she pretty much acted on the assumption she was making her feelings apparent to her. Even if you want to argue Mina's assumption was wrong.

 

 

On 1/4/2022 at 1:21 PM, SkyHorizon said:

...and the other half is based on the assumption that she talked to Sonic or someone else, WHICH WAS NEVER STATED ANYWHERE ("Sonic says she's back to normal" doesn't mean that they discussed about the possibility of losing control again).

 

So, yeah, every argument I can bring is moot because you based all of your reasoning on those two flawed assumptions.

 

Its not as plausible for Mina to know directly what Sonic said if they hadn't spoken about it. And if you're trying to argue she knew because he made a public statement, thats "your" interpretation, and frankly, thats even worse on Sonic's end. Because that means he knew people were afraid enough to respond and then acted completely ambivalent towards their problems. So what good would it have done Mina to speak with him either way? Mina had moments where she was irresponsible, but no matter what way you slice it, Sonic screwed up on that one. And thats fine. Sonic should be allowed to make mistakes. Its just the fact that the story doesnt acknowledge this IS a flaw to his character.

 

[SkyHorizon]

18 hours ago, Rienasketch said:

I clearly said Mina was at the very least acting based on the ASSUMPTION NICOLE is omniscient.

If she'd acted on that assumption, that just reinforces what I said, considering that she FLAT OUT SAID "the whole room could eat us alive" while they were in the city. Lol.

18 hours ago, Rienasketch said:

You realize your also making an assumption by arguing Mina didn't talk to him, right?

Wrong. The burden of the proof is always on the person who brings a claim in a dispute. In this case you.

19 hours ago, Rienasketch said:

Its not as plausible for Mina to know directly what Sonic said if they hadn't spoken about it. And if you're trying to argue she knew because he made a public statement, thats "your" interpretation, and frankly, thats even worse on Sonic's end. Because that means he knew people were afraid enough to respond and then acted completely ambivalent towards their problems. So what good would it have done Mina to speak with him either way? Mina had moments where she was irresponsible, but no matter what way you slice it, Sonic screwed up on that one. And thats fine. Sonic should be allowed to make mistakes. Its just the fact that the story doesnt acknowledge this IS a flaw to his character.

 

Because it's not. Again, that's your assumption: Mina's statement "Sonic says she's back to normal" means: "she's no longer mind-controled". You can argue all you want, but you can't draw the conclusion that "they also discussed Mina's fear that she could be controlled again".

[Rienasketch]

3 hours ago, SkyHorizon said:

If she'd acted on that assumption, that just reinforces what I said, considering that she FLAT OUT SAID "the whole room could eat us alive" while they were in the city. Lol.

It doesn't reinforce anything. How many times has Sonic or Knuckles made assumptions about situations that were wrong? Even if it was an inaccurate assumption, Mina isn't anymore of a bitch than Sonic, Sally or any of the other Freedom Fighters were for making false and at times, dismissive assumptions on the mental states of their own citizens. Same goes for the council not getting up off their ass to do anything until her concert. Again, this is you just trying to villiainize a character who inconvenienced your favs so they can be absolved of doing anything wrong. They all shared responsibility in what happened and made mistakes. At least I can admit that much.

Furthermore, even if her assumptions about NICOLE were misguided that was honestly something a responsible government should have assured their people of from the beginning. So again, Mina can't shoulder all the blame on that one.

 

3 hours ago, SkyHorizon said:

Wrong. The burden of the proof is always on the person who brings a claim in a dispute. In this case you.

 

The burden of proof (“onus probandi” in Latin) is the obligation to provide sufficient supporting evidence for claims that you make. Even if you want to argue I'm not providing enough evidence that she spoke to him directly, you're not providing enough evidence in your claim that she didn't. So even if I'm hypothetically wrong that doesn't make you right in your assumption, either.

So rather than argue on this front lets move to another facet. Because in the end, it doesn't really matter. Regardless of whether she spoke to him or not, regardless of what scenario you try to argue it from Sonic still screwed up. Even if he didn't talk to Mina directly, who would want to have a further dialogue with someone that dismissive over people's feelings? He couldn't even be bothered to show concern even when NICOLE was worried about it. So if she chose not to, its still a reasonable reaction for Mina not to go to him for support.

 

 

[Mauro Fonseca]

The whole point is that the heroes know NICOLE's fine, but from the public point of view, they just know that one of the heroes' friends is the entire city, controls the entire city, is a computer, turned evil, kidnapped tons of people, and when turned good again, no assurance was given to the public of things being fine now, because the heroes were sure within themselves and why think of the rest of the people.

 

Imagine a wizard made your house come alive and eat your family in front of you. The wizard got beaten so you're just told by the cops off-hand "yeah yeah that's fine house safe now". Are you gonna sleep there?

[Rienasketch]

8 hours ago, Mauro Fonseca said:

The whole point is that the heroes know NICOLE's fine, but from the public point of view, they just know that one of the heroes' friends is the entire city, controls the entire city, is a computer, turned evil, kidnapped tons of people, and when turned good again, no assurance was given to the public of things being fine now, because the heroes were sure within themselves and why think of the rest of the people.

 

Imagine a wizard made your house come alive and eat your family in front of you. The wizard got beaten so you're just told by the cops off-hand "yeah yeah that's fine house safe now". Are you gonna sleep there?

 

Mostly this. Though, the public's not wrong either. Because even if NICOLE's back to  normal, she still can't fully protect herself from the Iron Queen. So she could easily become controlled again. If not by the Iron Queen herself than by Eggman who made the nanites, noticed by now the security threat and how it was exploited.

Sonic said at one point NICOLE was back to normal. But if nobody sees that backed up with anything to prevent another threat, those are empty words that aren't going to mean much.

One of the main things that threw me off about this arc though, was the degree a lot of characters were dumbed down to make it work. Don't get me wrong the premise was interesting, but Power Rings have already been established to protect from brainwashing. We learned this with Khan, Sonic's parents, etc. So why didnt it occur to Sally or anybody else to just... Give NICOLE a pair of ring bracelets to protect her and let the public know what they were doing? It was a resource readily available to them and a problem that was easy to fix -- at least long enough to keep most citizens satisfied. It just didn't feel in character for them not to do that for NICOLE when they should have already had the knowledge and resources available. Nor can I see the citizens trusting Naugus so easily when he brainwashed their military last time. It could work if perhaps, there was a final boss in the shadows brainwashing people in background that nobody noticed. Maybe another follower of Naugus, a rival of his or someone entirely different? THAT might be interesting and could allow the story to mostly continue the way it originally had. But on its own it doesn't make any sense.

Another thing this arc taught me was that we need more civilian characters that actually do something and can get into the meat of the plot without being a Freedom Fighter. That the Freedom Fighters NEED to branch out a more, because as a group they've become too insulated. Its understandable that they're a close-knit pack, but its also come to the expense of them understanding their citizens and being out of touch with their needs.

Lastly, I also felt like the story didn't do enough to showcase NICOLE's feelings aside from feeling unwelcomed by people. Yes, the citizens themselves were victims, but she just had her entire autonomy stripped from her. Considering how she too can feel fear and sadness, it struck me as odd how she wasn't written to at the very least be more traumatized from that. Because even as a portable computer she was never controlled quite like that IIRC.

[E-122-Psi]

I always felt like Sally came out the worst in this arc, because, generally Sally is the one constantly touting precaution and consideration, yet made an ENORMOUS oversight here and kinda blown it off afterwards. Like even if we go by the idea that they didn't know about the Iron Queen's powers, Eggman and many other of their opposition are technological wizards. Surely they might have considered SOMETHING like this could happen down the line eventually. Hell the second story after NICOLE is installed, Eggman attempts to install a virus to delete her.

Like Sally at least lampshades the huge level of complacency afterwards, but then quickly shrugs it off when Sonic and co say 'hey don't worry about it' and the group are quickly back to partying when the villain is taken over, not making much effort to demonstrate that the same mistake isn't going to happen again besides this supposed offscreen chat of 'Hey she's back to normal now.' and being indignant that they would say such mean things about NICOLE because oh some collateral damage happened with characters that aren't really part of the main group (this is a downfall of a continuity that has permanent death or injury toll for horror value, redshirts tend to just make the main cast look apathetic and cold, SatAm suffered the same problem whenever they wanted to go back to light hearted too quickly).

It really gave a feel that the Freedom Fighters had become out of touch with the people they vowed to protect, that they were coming to treat them more as a statistic. Sonic was being a oversimplifying jerk about it too, but as someone mentioned, you kind of expect that attitude from him, and even if they could have made it more apparent he was in the wrong (or at the very least wasn't going 'I'm right, you're wrong' to all of it like any of these qualms were just petty garbage), he was at least feeling the pressure over it and being made to squirm, while Sally was recurrently proving she couldn't practise what she preaches and was generally conveniently out of the way whenever the debate got too heated. Being robotocized almost felt like a 'get out of jail free' card, like they tried to get her out of there before she could face a real rebuttal.

It's one of those situations that could have easily worked and been excusable if it had been ACKNOWLEDGED, and you know, if there hadn't been supposedly horrific repercussions and scars for several people as an aftermath (a reason I feel 'Sonic or another hero is complacent/reckless' formula just doesn't work in these more serious continuities because you know they'll eventually laugh it off and forget that moral a few stories later, I think if someone you know got scarred or killed just because one of these guys was being arrogant and they just brushed it off, you'd have a right to be pissed at them).

[Kuzu]

I feel like some these complaints are coming from a place of expecting the characters to act 100% logical and account for every situation ever....which, I don't think I need to explain the flaw in that logic. 

Bottom line is, both sides have a point in the debate, but there's a bit sympathy towards the main characters obviously because well....they're the main characters. Unless you just hate Sally for some arbitrary reason and looking for any excuse to hate...like literally everyone in the Sega Forums back in the day when this arc dropped. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like some these complaints are coming from a place of expecting the characters to act 100% logical and account for every situation ever....which, I don't think I need to explain the flaw in that logic. 
 

Might as well just in case, because you know parts of this fandom will have selective amnesia about it within a year or so.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

20 hours ago, Rienasketch said:

 

Mostly this. Though, the public's not wrong either. Because even if NICOLE's back to  normal, she still can't fully protect herself from the Iron Queen. So she could easily become controlled again. If not by the Iron Queen herself than by Eggman who made the nanites, noticed by now the security threat and how it was exploited.

Actually, NICOLE has little to no worries about Eggman—remembering a previous issue that keeps in line with things before the Second Genesis Wave, Eggman had already tried to hack her and failed every single time. So as much of a genius he is, it’s not as easy for Eggman to just take control of her as easily as Regina could. So it makes since as to why Eggman had yet do it, and with his AI ADAM gone he had even less of a chance.

Prior to the characters like Phage or Deadly Six, the Iron Queen was among the few that actually posed this level of a threat to NICOLE compared to others due to her techno magic. Well, them and Enerjak (Mogul, too, when empowered).

But all in all, while Eggman created the nanites, he can’t hack NICOLE. And since NICOLE now controls his nanites, he can’t control them due to being unable to control NICOLE. Explains why he can only rely on trying to use brute force on the city.

EDIT—no auto-merge? How does that work? I was not intending to double post.

[Rienasketch]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Actually, NICOLE has little to no worries about Eggman—remembering a previous issue that keeps in line with things before the Second Genesis Wave, Eggman had already tried to hack her and failed every single time. So as much of a genius he is, it’s not as easy for Eggman to just take control of her as easily as Regina could. So it makes since as to why Eggman had yet do it, and with his AI ADAM gone he had even less of a chance.

Prior to the characters like Phage or Deadly Six, the Iron Queen was among the few that actually posed this level of a threat to NICOLE compared to others due to her techno magic. Well, them and Enerjak (Mogul, too, when empowered).

But all in all, while Eggman created the nanites, he can’t hack NICOLE. And since NICOLE now controls his nanites, he can’t control them due to being unable to control NICOLE. Explains why he can only rely on trying to use brute force on the city.

EDIT—no auto-merge? How does that work? I was not intending to double post.

Well yeah its understandable that in the beginning NICOLE wouldn't be as phased by this. I'm talking about after the IQ brainwashed her. She's never been hacked before. But the one time she did citizens got kidnapped and are now captives and forced slaves of Robotnik/Eggman. Imagine the trauma that would logically cause a person. Being stripped of their bodily autonomy and free will and forced to do unspeakable acts to others, without being able to do anything about it. Mina may have been traumatized from having to witness what happened, but NICOLE was the one who was forced to actually go through with it. And while I imagine she'd try to put a brave face towards the Freedom Fighters and everyone else, I can't just see her NOT being shaken up by that. Especially given her reactions to the citizens, Mina's song, and how they remind her of it everyday.

I also should have elaborated more with Eggman. Think of him more as the catalyst. He doesn't need to hack into her directly, because now he knows someone who can. Given the IQ's connection to Snively and her effectiveness in leadership, there was always the strong possibility he'd attempt or succeed in recruiting her for his own purposes -- which he eventually did. And I imagine just the thought of that would logically terrify NICOLE on top of everything else. Just as the citizens are afraid of her, I feel like it would only be logical if to a degree NICOLE was afraid for herself and potentially even "of" herself. A subplot I was hoping Flynn would have explored with her but never got around to.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

One of the many reasons why I miss Phage…

[E-122-Psi]

12 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like some these complaints are coming from a place of expecting the characters to act 100% logical and account for every situation ever....which, I don't think I need to explain the flaw in that logic. 

Bottom line is, both sides have a point in the debate, but there's a bit sympathy towards the main characters obviously because well....they're the main characters. Unless you just hate Sally for some arbitrary reason and looking for any excuse to hate...like literally everyone in the Sega Forums back in the day when this arc dropped. 

It's not being flawed that is the issue, it's that the comic doesn't really do a great job showing the characters acknowledging they are flawed or the serious consequences it had. When a character acts careless or hypocritical, what brings them back into sympathetic territory is them being humbled and acknowledging what they did wrong, or alternatively facing some comeuppance of some kind. Actual repercussions for their actions that make them realise they made a mistake.

This is the issue I have with this arc (and really, several other instances Sally acts as reckless or overconfident as Sonic and doesn't acknowledge the hypocrisy of it all, no wonder so many fans think she's full of it when she NEVER shows humility). It could have easily served as a humanising tale for the Freedom Fighters, but they kinda spend most of the arc in 'never my fault' mode over what happened and underplaying what actually happened as a result of NICOLE's reprogramming. i feel if they weren't gonna play legionizing as a serious fate they should have just not used it at all, it felt like another bad shock value tactic they tried to sweep under the rug afterwards.

Even NICOLE herself comes off more hurt that everyone is being mean to her than actually remorseful about what she assisted the Iron Queen in doing. It could have an interesting development for her, that being more or less invincible against Eggman and others had left her a bit overconfident and herself questioning the safety her powers have over the people she wants to protect. But no, it's all about her social standing, and even she tends to think the complaints towards her as just unjust and uncalled for. You'd get her being upset over it, sure, but this felt more like full on 'protagonist centred morality' where neither they or the audience are meant to feel a few background characters getting mutilated and put in danger is anything to get worked up about.

And again I think it's just the general effect 'aesop amnesia' has on characters where there are very serious and permanent stakes involved. Sonic being arrogant and NEVER learning from it for more than one story is easier to swallow in a comedic take where everything bounces back in the end, but less so in one where people can and HAVE suffered in a serious way because of it. After a while it almost makes him look like a sociopath. Sally ironically has almost as big a track record as Sonic, and the folly of looking like a total hypocrite about it for how often she chides others about being careless and showboating. Just ONCE I'd like someone in-universe to say 'well that's no different from when YOU did such-and-such' and her realising the similarities, but no, Sally is designated 'the sensible one'. Just a simple moment of humility could have made all the difference.

[Kuzu]

Psi, I'm not going to do this with you again. I've been doing it for years and I'm honestly exhausted. 

This arc is even fresher in my head because of this thread, and it just reinforced to me that you're either letting your extreme bias against Sally cloud your judgment or you're just straight up refusing to acknowledge the story and choosing your own interpretations.

Talking to you about this is waste of time because you honestly don't care what anyone says if it goes against your own personal headcanon. So whatever, if you think Sally and the Freedom Fighters are the devil and need to have some "comeuppance" or whatever, be quest.

I don't care, and don't bother quoting this because I'm not going to respond. I'm shutting this down before it even has a chance to start. Have a good day.

[E-122-Psi]

17 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Psi, I'm not going to do this with you again. I've been doing it for years and I'm honestly exhausted. 

This arc is even fresher in my head because of this thread, and it just reinforced to me that you're either letting your extreme bias against Sally cloud your judgment or you're just straight up refusing to acknowledge the story and choosing your own interpretations.

Talking to you about this is waste of time because you honestly don't care what anyone says if it goes against your own personal headcanon. So whatever, if you think Sally and the Freedom Fighters are the devil and need to have some "comeuppance" or whatever, be quest.

I don't care, and don't bother quoting this because I'm not going to respond. I'm shutting this down before it even has a chance to start. Have a good day.

Suit yourself, I wasn't up for a debate either. I made my two cents based on previous conversation, and then explained when you referred to it as 'Hating when anyone in fiction acts flawed' which certainly wasn't what I meant.

If you don't agree with me that's fine, it probably IS me overthinking the plot anyway, but I'm going to have an opinion. Have a good day as well.

[Rienasketch]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Psi, I'm not going to do this with you again. I've been doing it for years and I'm honestly exhausted. 

This arc is even fresher in my head because of this thread, and it just reinforced to me that you're either letting your extreme bias against Sally cloud your judgment or you're just straight up refusing to acknowledge the story and choosing your own interpretations.

Talking to you about this is waste of time because you honestly don't care what anyone says if it goes against your own personal headcanon. So whatever, if you think Sally and the Freedom Fighters are the devil and need to have some "comeuppance" or whatever, be quest.

I don't care, and don't bother quoting this because I'm not going to respond. I'm shutting this down before it even has a chance to start. Have a good day.

 

I dont think hes calling Sally and the FF the devil or referring they were villainous for their mistakes so much as to a degree, the flaws in Flynn's writing at the time.  You can appreciate a character or what potential they had without approving of someone else's creative decisions with them. Admonishing creative decisions that prevent the characters' flaws from ever being acknowledged isn't saying that the character themselves is bad for having the flaws PSI mentioned. They may be heroes but there's always room for them to improve and I feel like this last arc was a very missed opportunity in letting the freedom fighters understand not just their own flaws but their flaws as a team.

But, rather than distribute responsibility to everyone for what happened Flynn just more or less wrote the citizens as being implicitly in the wrong for the way they were feeling, which I can't approve of. It felt like he was just trying to get us to concede to returning to the status quo because "the heroes are right because they're lead characters and everyone else is wrong because who cares what these nobodies think?" -- Or, the protagonist centered morality PSI was talking about. This was a repeated flaw in Flynn's writing at the time. He had difficulty making the lead characters, and accountable for any unflattering flaws they displayed unless the fandom specifically called him out on it. And while I hope he's improved since then, its something to take account of especially now considering he's writing for the games.

Personally I would have wanted to see more background and minor characters in the citizen ranks get more screentime this arc to help save the day. Because this really should have been their moment. Where the Freedom Fighters advance the plot in their own ways but also realize there are some problems they CAN'T fix on their own with just their raw abilities alone.

 

 

 

 

[Kuzu]

29 minutes ago, Rienasketch said:

 

I dont think hes calling Sally and the FF the devil or referring they were villainous for their mistakes so much as to a degree, the flaws in Flynn's writing at the time.  You can appreciate a character or what potential they had without approving of someone else's creative decisions with them. Admonishing creative decisions that prevent the characters' flaws from ever being acknowledged isn't saying that the character themselves is bad for having the flaws PSI mentioned. They may be heroes but there's always room for them to improve and I feel like this last arc was a very missed opportunity in letting the freedom fighters understand not just their own flaws but their flaws as a team.

But, rather than distribute responsibility to everyone for what happened Flynn just more or less wrote the citizens as being implicitly in the wrong for the way they were feeling, which I can't approve of. It felt like he was just trying to get us to concede to returning to the status quo because "the heroes are right because they're lead characters and everyone else is wrong because who cares what these nobodies think?" -- Or, the protagonist centered morality PSI was talking about. This was a repeated flaw in Flynn's writing at the time. He had difficulty making the lead characters, and accountable for any unflattering flaws they displayed unless the fandom specifically called him out on it. And while I hope he's improved since then, its something to take account of especially now considering he's writing for the games.

Personally I would have wanted to see more background and minor characters in the citizen ranks get more screentime this arc to help save the day. Because this really should have been their moment. Where the Freedom Fighters advance the plot in their own ways but also realize there are some problems they CAN'T fix on their own with just their raw abilities alone.

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, this is straight up ignoring what the story is actually saying and goes back to what I said about expecting the characters to be omniscient and have the same knowledge that we the readers have, and then calling it bad writing. In addition, it's also speaking completely in hindsight as the problems never presented themselves until they came crashing down at once. 

So basically, the Freedom Fighters are in the wrong for not knowing that there was a techno witch that could turn their A.I. ally (who has NEVER gone rogue or had any inclinations beforehand) against them even though they only just knew this person existed recently? In addition to that, while the citizen's worries are valid, effectively treating Nicole, who need I remind you is a sentient person at this point, as if she's a danger even though once again, she's never displayed any inclinations towards going rogue. 

 

Like, are we reading the same story??? I'm starting to feel like Flynn should just stop trying to go for these types of stories less because they're "flawed" and more because the nuance just tends to go over Sonic fan's heads and just want to watch Sonic smash robots and say funny one-liners. I'm not even saying his writing is perfect or anything, but I really do feel like people are grasping at straws in trying to criticize him at this point. Its not even constructive anymore, because any time I see anyone on here or anywhere else criticize Flynn, it's always accompanied by the most negative interpretations of his work. 

And this has been happening for the 15 odd years he has been writing for Sonic; if Ian Flynn was honestly this terrible, and flawed writer as most of his detractors claimed he was, he wouldn't have kept his job for over 15 years, brought on to write in another book, and now currently being brought on to write for the games. I acknowledge the man's flaws, but I'm really kind of tired of reading how his flaws are exaggerated into something being bigger than they actually are. 

 

Meanwhile, Pontac and Graff constantly got shit from the fanbase and they got the boot swiftly. I don't always jive with whatever Sonic fans complain about every single week and I honestly don't care, but I vastly prefer Flynn's work to theirs even though he's not perfect, but like....there's not a single creator in existence who is 100% flawless. So if Ian Flynn's flaws are just THAT annoying for people, then I have to start wondering why do so many people continuously engage with his work and then get upset about it.