Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Gavvie]

"I'm just as amazed we're here as you are."

Obviously didn't think about how to word his original statement before he went ahead and wrote it then, did he? We've seen situations before where somebody's come out and said something only to get massive amounts of bad press based on it, and their follow up could be summarised by "Erm..no, what I meant was..."

[Agent York]

Latest responses from Penders:

"I'd like to say at this time that what I have undertaken was not done with malice or in haste. I am simply looking out for the long-term interests of my family. That said, I knew many fans might be hurt or bewildered by my actions, but once all the circumstances that brought me to this point are known, I'm certain many will agree I had no choice but to protect my interests. In fact, I never expected to find myself in this position, yet here I am.

There will be much misinformation tossed out to confuse and obfuscate the issues at hand. You will not get that from me because I have no intention of being forthcoming with details beyond the obvious.

In the meantime, I will be in San Diego attending Comic-Con while promoting my film THE REPUBLIC as well as the forthcoming BROTHERHOOD OF THE GUARDIANS: LOCKE graphic novel. I will also be selling a special limited edition poster available only at Comic-Con featuring Julie-Su, Lara-Su, Lien-Da and the rest of the clan from the Dark Legion. My attorney Michael Lovitz will also be in attendance, providing a seminar on Copyrights and related matter. Please note that none of my actions infringe on SEGA's or Archie's rights with regards to producing the SONIC and SONIC UNIVERSE series. I also wouldn't be undertaking what I plan if I weren't within my legal rights."

and

"As I made clear in my statement, this was a process that began with everyone contacting me about my involvement with SONIC CHRONICLES: THE DARK BROTHERHOOD. So we're talking sometime late in 2008. This didn't happen overnight despite the suddenness of my announcement. Far from it. It just seems that way to everyone because they're only now finding out what's going on. There were many steps along the way that could've stopped this from coming to be, but fate decreed otherwise. I'm just as amazed we're here as you are."

Split on that. I am a empathetic person so I can understand where family comes into important play.

Alternatively though that doesn't mean what he's doing is right or that it'll actually go anywhere now that attention has been drawn to it from the fanbase and head honchos.

Penders, if you really are in a bad place you need to think of an alternative way, there are much better ways to go and you could of just as well tried to start your own comic series instead of relying on one based off of Echidnas. Or looked elsewhere. I really don't want to hate you but you're painting yourself in a bad light and into a situation you may not want to even tread since I can't see you winning this.

[Flyboy Fox]

It seems like an absolute hypocrisy to me that he's taking this action and then in the same breath trying to use characters derived from SEGA's ideas and concepts to make money. I'm amazed that ANYONE is still supporting his actions at this stage.

[Way Past Cool]

Exactly, it IS hypocritical! I don't know how he can really think he can create a graphic novel based on Locke without it seeming like a complete rip-off of the Sonic universe, which belongs exclusively to SEGA. Unless SEGA has given him the go ahead (which I haven't heard) he would have to remove ANY of SEGA's copyrighted material from the story... in which case it would end up looking something akin to:

Edited July 8, 2010 by Way Past Cool

[Detective Shadzter]

I wonder if this is what stopped the recent releases of Archie Sonic comics on the PSP Digital Comics Store, they got to issue 4 and stopped. I hear this has been the same for the iTunes comics store too.

[Dark Qiviut]

It seems like an absolute hypocrisy to me that he's taking this action and then in the same breath trying to use characters derived from SEGA's ideas and concepts to make money. I'm amazed that ANYONE is still supporting his actions at this stage.

QFT. I may not follow the comics anymore, but Penders's action here is completely low and full of crap. You don't throw away fifteen to sixteen years of a completely developed canon over what feels like a begrudged vendetta. If he wanted to make some dough, then he'd do the proper thing: find a (better) DAMN job that can support himself and his family!

[PC the Hedgehog]

"Family", eh? Heh. How much you wanna bet he's just trying to cover up that he's a greedy lying weasel who just wants money for himself?

And how the heck can he be selling his own works featuring the Sonic characters, anyway? The issue isn't even in COURT yet, right? These characters belong to Archie and Sega!

I can see this guy ending up in major hot water, and he'll deserve every bit of it.

I just checked out his message board. It's sad (and a bit creepy) how many people support his endeavor. Of course, many of them appear to be just as condescending as he is.

[Marcello]

I hope this doesn't effect the reease of Sonic Archives. I'd love it to get to the recent issues so I can know whats happening :-/

Penders seems like an ass, though. I was looking at endgame in volume 12 today, and while it was written good, I couldn't help but feel a certaind disdain towards it after reading the article :-/

[AdventChild]

I really don't mind much about the echidna family tree thing, but I would be majorly pissed if they had to cut out the whole Moebious casts from the stories. Scourge just so happens to be one of my fave chars from the Archie series, and I've been dying to see an SU issue about the origins of him and Suppression Squad. Well, I'm really hoping that this doesn't effect the chars.

I hope this legal issue would completely fall through and be forgotten just like that.

[Flyboy Fox]

I really don't mind much about the echidna family tree thing, but I would be majorly pissed if they had to cut out the whole Moebious casts from the stories. Scourge just so happens to be one of my fave chars from the Archie series, and I've been dying to see an SU issue about the origins of him and Suppression Squad. Well, I'm really hoping that this doesn't effect the chars.

SO MUCH THIS.

If you can't tell from my sig, I ADORE the Suppression Squad, and Scourge is my all-time favourite Archie Sonic character. I was really hoping either for a detailed backstory or a continuation. I'd love to see what the Suppression Squad has been up to under Miles and Alicia's leadership, since they have the globe post schematics and swore revenge on Mobius. And I'd especially love to see Scourge bust out of the No Zone (again XD) and challenge Miles et al over their betrayal.

Flyboy will be a sad fox if Scourge never comes back ):

[azoo]

So lemme get this straight.. He's blocking them off from using them so he can get all the money, because he wants the characters for him and him only.

So he can sell his fanfictions.

...

Well honestly, I always hated the soap opera bullcrap started by him, hated the over-the-top modern Echidna civilization (Knuckles is the LAST of the echidnas, idiot), and hated this convoluted mess of fancharacters with barely any differences to others but supposedly being "original". This is basically "original character do not steal" at it's finest.

Archiesonic could seriously go with a reboot right now anyways, and I wouldn't mind. Maybe without all this crap they've made up over the years and the terrible overexplanitory events that occurred whenever Penders was on board, they can just make a clean slate and start anew. Make a balance between SatAM and the classics, or something. That, or just go back to the Death Egg Saga / the Knuckles Chaotix adaptation, forget the Knuckles minicomic and soforth, and rewrite the series from there.

[Agent York]

But their so close to being the longest running comic series of all time. No seriously, they just need to get to issue 275 I believe, I forget the basics but it was detailed when Sonic's comic won longest running video game comic.

While a reboot has some certain appeals I think they should continue where they are since people would be annoyed we'd have to cover so much ground again that could take years.

[Mangoaxe5]

This sounds like a power play by Penders. I wonder if he's trying to get Archie to rehire him. He seems to think that he created Knuckles, and owns the character, not Sega.

It's sad to see how immature he's acting, he was a great writer at one point, now he comes across as a jerk.

I'm afraid that if this goes to court Sega might decide to cancel the comic. I guess we'll have to see what happens.

[azoo]

Why not start back from the Death Egg Saga though? After all that DOES essentially equal a tie-in to Sonic 4

[Octarine]

How very weird. I was never a huge fan of Penders' stuff, honestly, and his recent antics are just making me like him less and less. That recent interview or blog post or whatever it was where he blasted Ian Flynn for daring to, y'know, do his job was pretty crazy on its own, but this is a whole other level. Not only do his plans seem like a bit of a pipe dream (although I admittedly don't know anything about intellectual property laws, so I could be wrong), but his motivations in the first place are just bizarre. He wants to take legal action against Archie so he can... uh, sell fanfiction based on the comic he just sabotaged, or possibly force himself back onto the writing staff? Can there really be that much money in it for him even if he succeeds?

I guess he's let his personal fandom go to his head... or was he like this back when he was part of the staff, too?

[Dark Qiviut]

Why not start back from the Death Egg Saga though? After all that DOES essentially equal a tie-in to Sonic 4

I absolutely HATE the concept of a reboot. Rebooting means removing all the hard work that the original creators made and pretending that they didn't exist. It's a sign of disrespect for those who care about the canon and appreciate the details and background of the universe surrounding the canon.

This is no exception. Rebooting the series in any way would really upset me as a fan of the series. Like the games, the comics has a well-detailed universe, and tearing it apart and starting it all over again would be a really dumb decision. I may not follow the Comics as much as I used to, but I can definitely appreciate the nourishment that he canon has made.

I doubt, though, that a reboot or a cancellation will happen. On the front SSMB page, a guy named Jonathan discussed the "work for hire" circumstance, which he explained it spot on. I'll paste it here:

The concept of copyright law at play here is called “work for hire”. Penders’ original contributions were made as a work for hire to Archie, and so all copyrights were assigned to Archie immediately upon creation. It’s that simple. Penders’ sentimental attachment to his work or perceptions of unfair compensation for his work give him no special standing under the law whatsoever. There’s a lesson for all artists here.

This is likely what Penders falls under. Also, according to Gigazubyte on the Sega Forums, there's a blurb on all the comics that says all the characters in the Sonic comics are under Sega property. Penders is likely doing this for his fifteen minutes of fame, and his copyright claim will likely not hold in court. So, hopefully, the comics will continue the way it is, and that we won't have to see a reboot anytime soon. Edited July 8, 2010 by Dark Qiviut

[PoshAlligator]

I absolutely HATE the concept of a reboot. Rebooting means removing all the hard work that the original creators made and pretending that they didn't exist. It's a sign of disrespect for those who care about the canon and appreciate the details and background of the universe surrounding the canon.

This is no exception. Rebooting the series in any way would really upset me as a fan of the series. Like the games, the comics has a well-detailed universe, and tearing it apart and starting it all over again would be a really dumb decision. I may not follow the Comics as much as I used to, but I can definitely appreciate the nourishment that he canon has made.

This from someone with 'Canon is Overrated' written in their display picture?

I'm not very familiar with the Archie series, but I agree with all of your points.

[The Tenth Doctor]

I also agree with dark Qiviut. Reboots normally don't go well. I'd prefer to keep going with what we can. Although with that Sega blurb evidence, Penders has no chance.

[Chooch]

So lemme get this straight.. He's blocking them off from using them so he can get all the money, because he wants the characters for him and him only.

So he can sell his fanfictions.

...

Well honestly, I always hated the soap opera bullcrap started by him, hated the over-the-top modern Echidna civilization (Knuckles is the LAST of the echidnas, idiot), and hated this convoluted mess of fancharacters with barely any differences to others but supposedly being "original". This is basically "original character do not steal" at it's finest.

Archiesonic could seriously go with a reboot right now anyways, and I wouldn't mind. Maybe without all this crap they've made up over the years and the terrible overexplanitory events that occurred whenever Penders was on board, they can just make a clean slate and start anew. Make a balance between SatAM and the classics, or something. That, or just go back to the Death Egg Saga / the Knuckles Chaotix adaptation, forget the Knuckles minicomic and soforth, and rewrite the series from there.

This.

The mess of a story Penders created is the main reason I stopped reading the comic books way back when. Let him have all of his garbage characters. Personally I don't give a shit. I've been wanting a reboot for the longest time. Let Flynn write his stories without having the lug all the nonsense Penders left behind with him.

I must say in a way all of this is pretty funny to me. Penders honestly expects to grab back all his characters and then write more shit to make money without the consent of Sega? Hilarious. If he doesn't get permission one of the most mainstream places he can show his work legally is fucking deviantART. XP

And honestly? Even if BioWare's story for Chronicles was inspired by his work, it's plenty different enough (and plenty better enough) that it's hardly even a big deal.

[azoo]

So, some (hopeless) fans of Ken Penders tried to fight back and respond immediately to this by bashing Ian Flynn.

Ian is too much of a FAN to write this book the way it needs to be written. Consistently writing Sally OOC to fulfill his shipper fantasies, contorting characters like Fiona and Scourge for his shipper fantasies as well, is irresponsible. THEN he steals ideas from Drazen (shamelessly I might add), and a lot of what he's been doing has been riding off Ken and Karl's tidal waves before they left. Y'know what I think? When evaluating Ian, it feels like they were desperate to find a person with the bare minimum qualifications to get hired because the other two writers were leaving. That qualification being a degree in English. Other M was too mature for anything in the comics. It didn't display that he could work with the limitations a G-rated story and make it interesting. It didn't display any actual knowledge or understanding of ARCHIE'S interpretation of the characters. All he did was plop Sonic in a new world with a bunch of new characters that looked and went by the same names as the old characters, mostly absolving himself of the need for consistency.

Since I think this is one of the worst, most hypocritical posts I've ever read in my life, let's break it down into why it's so terrible. Let us begin.

-----------

Consistently writing Sally OOC to fulfill his shipper fantasies, contorting characters like Fiona and Scourge for his shipper fantasies as well, is irresponsible.

You mean like how Sonic and Sally were forced together every other comic, and Sonic and Mina, and Sonic and bla bla bla, and Bunnie and Antione, and Tails and Fiona? Yes, Penders, those weren't shipper fantasies whatsoever.

Other M was too mature for anything in the comics. It didn't display that he could work with the limitations a G-rated story and make it interesting. It didn't display any actual knowledge or understanding of ARCHIE'S interpretation of the characters.

So what about Sonic running through about 10,000 soap opera-esque relationships, super huge Echidna tribes talking of war and power and drama, A SUPER HUGE STORY ON ROBOTNIK'S DEATH AND REBIRTH VIA MACHINE BUT THEN TURNED BACK HUMAN AND A SPACETIME WARP WHICH CHANGED EVERYBODY'S EYE COLORS, bigtime government talk across the Acorn family, a story about how Sonic dies from an over-the-top alien invasion but isn't dead and traverses across time and space to come back and make out with Sally only for her to get mad at him for what he does, and a crappy story about how the Mobians and Mobius came to be.

How are any of those things not too mature for a "G-rated" comic book, and even CLOSE to what the original writers at Archie or the SatAM show even intended?

All he did was plop Sonic in a new world with a bunch of new characters that looked and went by the same names as the old characters, mostly absolving himself of the need for consistency.

You mean like what SatAM was in the first place?

tl;dr - Ken Penders is pretty stupid, wants to make money off his really bad fanfics; his "fanbase" is just as stupid.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Azukara

[Yong]

"I'd like to say at this time that what I have undertaken was not done with malice or in haste. I am simply looking out for the long-term interests of my family. That said, I knew many fans might be hurt or bewildered by my actions, but once all the circumstances that brought me to this point are known, I'm certain many will agree I had no choice but to protect my interests. In fact, I never expected to find myself in this position, yet here I am.

So in other words it's because of money? Yeah once we understand that we'll all agree with you then.

Why don't we agree for Archie to give the Penders family food stamps for the next 10 or so years and call it even? Cause obviously his family needs the support if Penders has no other choice but to be a dick to get money.

[KittyNakajima]

To quote South Park, this is a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

I can already tell I'm going to get a lot of amusement out of watching Penders make an ass out of himself over this, regardless of the outcome. Fighting over a bunch of characters that are as original as say, sliced bread is a laugh, especially given that many of them are caricatures or have hints of other established characters/franchises behind them. Rob 'O Hedge? Robin Hood. Geoffery and Hershey? Pepe Le Pew and Penelope. And don't even get me started about how the whole damn Dark Legion is essentially the Sith/Dark Side of Star Wars turned echidnas.

Or any other post apocalyptic society for that matter.

And that's Penders as the Giant Douche there, since I pretty much think the comic as a whole is one giant pile of crap, writing wise. Penders, Bollers, Flynn, whoever wrote for it just seemed to add on more narm than the overall story could handle. I always felt it was too convoluted with its multiple recons or focus on comic/show exclusive characters to just god awful about face Flanderization of established game characters (i.e. Sonic being God's gift to women, Amy's lack of spark outside of her crush for Sonic, Tails' ranging from emo to meh). After 12-13 years of this, a reboot wouldn't be half bad - hell, DC and Marvel do it every which way and then some every few years for their properties...

I've also only ever bought issues to admire the various pencillers behind it such as Spaz, J. Axer, Dawn Best, Tracy Yardley!, Steven Butler, etc. so much so that I'm very interested in pursuing it as a career in that respect. Watching Penders will definitely be a life lesson in that respect. XD

[-Mark-]

You know what? I reckon he knows as well as the rest of us that he's never going to get anywhere by flaunting his fanfics as 'original creations' and managing to sell them. Regardless of what he said.

At the same time, I don't think he's just doing this out of spite. I don't think it's "hur hur I want to screw Archie Sonic over because I lost my job with them", I think it's more "lol I know, I can claim copyright on all the fancharacters I made whilst I worked for them and then force them to pay me royalties for their continued use without myself having to lift a finger". Because he knows (thinks) that all of his characters are so deeply ingrained in the series that Archie will fold and pay him whatever he wants. Which is basically free, easy money, for him.

Whether they actually DO fold and pay him what he wants, or whether they work around it by some other means, will be interesting.

I mean, as other have said, as things stand, this is seriously going to screw Archie up. Not only can they not sell any issues, be they recent or old, that include his characters, but it's also screwing over the Archives and Select volumes. They're gonna be in a massive mess if they don't come to some kind of agreement.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Mahzes

[JaidynReiman]

^ Assuming, of course, that he succeeds. As I recall, whether Penders thinks he can get away with it or not, all characters in the comics are owned by SEGA, not Archie, not Ian Flynn, and especially not Ken Penders. As is, Archie has a license with Sega to create these comics. All characters created are exclusive to the comics, but Sega has the rights to them. Even then, any characters created are just generic fan-characters. Few characters in the comics are actually all that original. And that's only because we have to wade through craploads of extremely unoriginal characters in order TO find original characters.

I think the closest to an original character Archie has created is probably Mina Mongoose. She's pretty original in look, anyway, and she's not just a heroic character trying to follow along the main cast. Most of the Freedom Fighters are semi-original TO THE SERIES, but that's only because they came first. Even then, a group of people fighting for freedom under an evil dictator isn't really all that original, honestly.

[nuckles87]

(i.e. Sonic being God's gift to women, Amy's lack of spark outside of her crush for Sonic, Tails' ranging from emo to meh)

All of this has dissapeared over Ian's run.