"Classic Sonic" seems like it isn't so much "1990s Sonic" as "Sanitized Sonic".

[Scritch the Cat]

This is something many people have been noticing and talking about in various places online, and I didn't see a thread on it here so I figured I'd make one.  It might have been premature to do so back when the only presence of "Classic Sonic" as a distinct sub-brand was Sonic Generations and Sonic Mania, but now that we have gotten Origins and Origins Plus, and are soon to get Superstars, it seems fair to dig into them aesthetically and thematically.

Back in the day, Sonic was created to be "not like the other" mascots.  Sorry if you cringed due to that phrase's over-use, but you need to understand that back then, pitching a game, a game console, and in many regards, a game company, around a mascot, had never really been done before.  Sonic needed to have a stronger definition to set him aside from other game characters, so more than any past game protagonist, went out of his way to be "cool".  What that meant might have been different to different creators; for example, Naoto Oshima might have focused on Sonic's tenacity while some American artists and writers might have gravitated towards his tendency to mouth off to square old authorities, but the big consistency with Sonic in the 1990s was that he was never just a game character; he was a literary character.  Sonic had a personality, he had stereotypical motions, he had expressions, he had catchphrases, he had quips, he had opinions, and to go with all of the above, his world had stakes.  His games also had soundtracks that conveyed those stakes.

Yet ever since SEGA has revived "Classic Sonic", a lot of his has not been revived with him.  The most immediately evident sign of this is their conscious decision not to have Classic Sonic speak in Generations, but it's not just that he doesn't speak; his expressions are also really understated.  Then we get things like the Sonic Mania intro, and while Sonic is much more expressive there, the expressions are all mostly "positive" ones and nothing feels like it's at stake.  Compare Sonic CD's intro to Sonic Mania's intro to get a feel for what I mean.  In terms of art style the two aren't too different, but the vibe the style is used to convey is enormously different.  There is some nice stuff to look at in CD's but you're looking at a modest and organic environment, and it can also be a menacing when it starts to fall apart.  Mania hits you with an onslaught of neon and surrealism and nothing that's happening feels like it has weight as a result.  CD's intro has Sonic gritting his teeth, lowering his brow, looking determined, concerned, and yes, serious; Mania's has Sonic looking giddy almost all the time.  The music also sets a different mood; the 1990s games conveyed a sense of hipness, while Mania's intro music is just cute.

Why has this all happened?  Likely a variety of reasons, but I think a lot of it is out of reactionary sentiment.  SEGA seems to be afraid of the backlash they have gotten when Modern Sonic games have gotten either too edgy or too quippy for comfort, so Classic Sonic to them isn't just not Modern Sonic; it feels like it's almost intentionally the anti-Modern Sonic, and in the drive to do that, they ended up stripping away a lot of stuff that was actually started with Classic Sonic.  Sonic was marketed in the 1990s as not just another video game character but a global multimedia phenomenon, but "Classic Sonic" as depicted now seems like he's a primitive video game character and basically nothing else, worse yet that is by design.  It used to be played up how different Sonic was from Mario, but now the vibe projected is that "Classic Sonic" is trying to be Mario, presenting little more than a colorful world for colorful characters to eeyippee their way through without a care and without any plot or personality that might make it more appealing to some at the cost of appeal to others.  In the 1990s, commercials would revel in how Sonic was the sort of character/franchise that would irritate stuck up old farts, but now "Classic Sonic" is squeaky clean and avoids annoying anyone by just not saying anything or making any confrontational gestures.  "Classic Sonic" feels like it's trying to be a nostalgia brand, but ironically enough, it's not so much catering to nostalgia for Classic Sonic as for gaming trends that Sonic was originally trying to rebel against. 

And that's awkward, because it feels like a lot of Sonic media is in essence saying that Sonic was a mistake, in some regards.  The character is allowed to stay around but now they want him to stay in the lane of what cartoony game mascots were supposed to be back before Sonic redefined the terms and are now supposed to be again now that platforming has been reduced to a nostalgic niche brand.  They want him to be safe for children instead of cool for teenagers, perhaps because they have absolutely no confidence in Sonic being cool for teenagers and maybe even because they expect modern teenagers to say they hate Sonic to make themselves look cool in the post-06 era.  "Classic Sonic" is Sonic for people who cringe when Sonic tries to be cool or tries to be funny, so almost all they ever try to make "Classic Sonic" is cute.

 

[FlameStream]

Ever since Generation, I've been saying that "Classic Sonic" should have better be addressed as "Cute Sonic" instead, as he's nothing like what the old one was, aside from the appearance.

I'd tend to believe that it's intentional. It's not because of fear of backlash or anything, but just because they want it to be a more simple, little depth character that just tries to make you think of happy things.

And I think that's fine, as otherwise it would make the modern one redundant. Moreover, they should just take advantage of that distraction to put back that lost cool factor on the modern version one instead. 

[Scritch the Cat]

45 minutes ago, FlameStream said:

Ever since Generation, I've been saying that "Classic Sonic" should have better be addressed as "Cute Sonic" instead, as he's nothing like what the old one was, aside from the appearance.

I'd tend to believe that it's intentional. It's not because of fear of backlash or anything, but just because they want it to be a more simple, little depth character that just tries to make you think of happy things.

And I think that's fine, as otherwise it would make the modern one redundant. Moreover, they should just take advantage of that distraction to put back that lost cool factor on the modern version one instead. 

I disagree with that last part.  Better writing, Jaleel White, and a script that played into 1990s slang vs 2010s slang could easily create a fun dynamic that made neither Sonic feel redundant.

[Diogenes]

Maybe I'm just tired of seemingly every detail setting off someone to shout "that's not my Sonic! That's not the real Sonic!", but I have to wonder how much of this is a real difference vs personal perception and how much is a correctable mistake vs an inevitability of it not being 1993 (or 99 or 01 or whatever Sonic you're looking for) anymore.

I just don't see that big a difference between the best iterations of classic Classic Sonic and modern Classic Sonic. CD's and Mania's openings have different vibes because they're trying to accomplish different things and emphasize different aspects of Sonic, I don't think they're incompatible. And where there are differences, are they even fixable? And even if they did everything "right", would it even work for you, when you're not who you were 10, 20, 30 years ago?

[Wraith]

 A lot of the ways they render  Sonic are bland in both classic and modern, but that's to do more with the art than an active change in characterization. In classic media like Mania Adventures or Seasons of Chaos, Sonic is way snarkier and more impatient than he's presented to be in Modern stuff. He's not taking anything 'Sonic CD' levels of serious but that's probably because nothing that happens in any of these games calls for that.

Mania and Superstars are meant to be more lighthearted fair, and the classic Sonic of Yesteryear wasn't just defined by CD. There were plenty of examples of him smiling, being playful or just living his life in official art. All they're doing is matching his character to the tone and situation of the game.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

9 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

This is something many people have been noticing and talking about in various places online, and I didn't see a thread on it here so I figured I'd make one.  It might have been premature to do so back when the only presence of "Classic Sonic" as a distinct sub-brand was Sonic Generations and Sonic Mania, but now that we have gotten Origins and Origins Plus, and are soon to get Superstars, it seems fair to dig into them aesthetically and thematically.

Back in the day, Sonic was created to be "not like the other" mascots.  Sorry if you cringed due to that phrase's over-use, but you need to understand that back then, pitching a game, a game console, and in many regards, a game company, around a mascot, had never really been done before.  Sonic needed to have a stronger definition to set him aside from other game characters, so more than any past game protagonist, went out of his way to be "cool".  What that meant might have been different to different creators; for example, Naoto Oshima might have focused on Sonic's tenacity while some American artists and writers might have gravitated towards his tendency to mouth off to square old authorities, but the big consistency with Sonic in the 1990s was that he was never just a game character; he was a literary character.  Sonic had a personality, he had stereotypical motions, he had expressions, he had catchphrases, he had quips, he had opinions, and to go with all of the above, his world had stakes.  His games also had soundtracks that conveyed those stakes.

Yet ever since SEGA has revived "Classic Sonic", a lot of his has not been revived with him.  The most immediately evident sign of this is their conscious decision not to have Classic Sonic speak in Generations, but it's not just that he doesn't speak; his expressions are also really understated.  Then we get things like the Sonic Mania intro, and while Sonic is much more expressive there, the expressions are all mostly "positive" ones and nothing feels like it's at stake.  Compare Sonic CD's intro to Sonic Mania's intro to get a feel for what I mean.  In terms of art style the two aren't too different, but the vibe the style is used to convey is enormously different.  There is some nice stuff to look at in CD's but you're looking at a modest and organic environment, and it can also be a menacing when it starts to fall apart.  Mania hits you with an onslaught of neon and surrealism and nothing that's happening feels like it has weight as a result.  CD's intro has Sonic gritting his teeth, lowering his brow, looking determined, concerned, and yes, serious; Mania's has Sonic looking giddy almost all the time.  The music also sets a different mood; the 1990s games conveyed a sense of hipness, while Mania's intro music is just cute.

Why has this all happened?  Likely a variety of reasons, but I think a lot of it is out of reactionary sentiment.  SEGA seems to be afraid of the backlash they have gotten when Modern Sonic games have gotten either too edgy or too quippy for comfort, so Classic Sonic to them isn't just not Modern Sonic; it feels like it's almost intentionally the anti-Modern Sonic, and in the drive to do that, they ended up stripping away a lot of stuff that was actually started with Classic Sonic.  Sonic was marketed in the 1990s as not just another video game character but a global multimedia phenomenon, but "Classic Sonic" as depicted now seems like he's a primitive video game character and basically nothing else, worse yet that is by design.  It used to be played up how different Sonic was from Mario, but now the vibe projected is that "Classic Sonic" is trying to be Mario, presenting little more than a colorful world for colorful characters to eeyippee their way through without a care and without any plot or personality that might make it more appealing to some at the cost of appeal to others.  In the 1990s, commercials would revel in how Sonic was the sort of character/franchise that would irritate stuck up old farts, but now "Classic Sonic" is squeaky clean and avoids annoying anyone by just not saying anything or making any confrontational gestures.  "Classic Sonic" feels like it's trying to be a nostalgia brand, but ironically enough, it's not so much catering to nostalgia for Classic Sonic as for gaming trends that Sonic was originally trying to rebel against. 

And that's awkward, because it feels like a lot of Sonic media is in essence saying that Sonic was a mistake, in some regards.  The character is allowed to stay around but now they want him to stay in the lane of what cartoony game mascots were supposed to be back before Sonic redefined the terms and are now supposed to be again now that platforming has been reduced to a nostalgic niche brand.  They want him to be safe for children instead of cool for teenagers, perhaps because they have absolutely no confidence in Sonic being cool for teenagers and maybe even because they expect modern teenagers to say they hate Sonic to make themselves look cool in the post-06 era.  "Classic Sonic" is Sonic for people who cringe when Sonic tries to be cool or tries to be funny, so almost all they ever try to make "Classic Sonic" is cute.

So long story short, you're saying it's like New Super Mario Bros, but Sonic.

Yeah, I agree. Superstars doesn't help that thought, either. lol

[MetalSkulkBane]

Generally I see what you mean and agree, but I don't see it as a THAT big deal. Big enough it should be fixed, not enough to worry.

First, yes, Generations was veeeery soft and unedgy. So I think it's save to say Mania was improvement, right? At very least all the Hesse animation. Or in IDW comics.

Secondly, it's kinda inevitable. If you watched old Disney shorts you would know that even Mickey and Donald used to be much edgier. Heck, generally Disney movies stopped traumatizing kids, like good old Bambi or Pinoccio. So it's less Sonic problem and more Society problem.

Lastly, there is a thing I call Rule of Contrasts: similar characters in close proximity must focus on their differences to avoid redundancy. That's how many early Marvel heroes got their personalities: they meet in Avengers and writers had to decide who's the hothead or calm one.

Neo Classic now exists next to Modern. So it makes sense to make them different from each other. And it doesn't take genius to figure out Classic would appeal to kids while Modern will attract teens (...even though Classic fans are at least decade older than Modern... you know what I mean!). Generally it makes sense to make Classic a little softer and Modern a little edgier.

So really, if you want Classic to be edgier, you need to make Modern edgier first, or you break Rule of Contrasts.

....although I suppose one can argue that Classic Sonic is younger (or at least less experienced) and thus should be edgier? IDK, by now I need to grab dictionary and check again the definitions.

[Palas]

It's plain for everyone that Classic Sonic as packaged today is just a sanitized version of itself in attitude and position towards the world, but I do think you're misplacing a little of the function Sonic had as a mascot. Far from a literary character, a mascot needs to promote the company's values and project a certain image relative to other companies, but not in a well-rounded, storified manner. Whatever Sonic did at any given time never mattered as much as what he does, archetypically. And that should lead him to something as close to a universal appeal as possible.

After all, Sonic was perhaps an example of attitude and edge to boys, but he has also always been cute -- for girls or older people. He's much more of an empty vessel for whatever appeal you want to make him have, since he'd never get even close to sensitive or divisive topics. His opinions have always sounded more like "sexual assault is bad" than like "Palestinian self-determination is threatened by the state of Israel and the international community". His edge has always been an illusion and a choice because it appeals to extremely general and abstract values. And Modern Sonic inherited that: he still represents that to children, and the character resisted even his own games' stories when they tried to be more serious and even literary in character. There's a fantastic piece about on SUPERJUMP.

[Scritch the Cat]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:29 PM, Diogenes said:

Maybe I'm just tired of seemingly every detail setting off someone to shout "that's not my Sonic! That's not the real Sonic!", but I have to wonder how much of this is a real difference vs personal perception and how much is a correctable mistake vs an inevitability of it not being 1993 (or 99 or 01 or whatever Sonic you're looking for) anymore.

I just don't see that big a difference between the best iterations of classic Classic Sonic and modern Classic Sonic. CD's and Mania's openings have different vibes because they're trying to accomplish different things and emphasize different aspects of Sonic, I don't think they're incompatible. And where there are differences, are they even fixable? And even if they did everything "right", would it even work for you, when you're not who you were 10, 20, 30 years ago?

You are correct to a point.  It's not the 1990s anymore so there's no real chance for an anthropomorphic rodent to be the most edgy or badass game character ever again.  And yeah, I wouldn't want them to try to recapture that feeling if it creates dreck like Shadow the Hedgehog.  Some things just break when they're pushed that hard.  They even said in an interview when working on Sonic Lost World that they realized they wouldn't be able to make Sonic a "cool" brand ever again, so they were just trying to make it an ubiquitous brand.

But I still wish Classic Sonic was more the character he was in the 1990s, because even if it's not edgy or badass, it's at least endearing and nostalgic to many people.  I think maybe what bugs me is that Neo Classic Sonic--we might as well call it that--feels like an attempt by SEGA of Japan to downplay how much SEGA of America did to make Sonic such a big deal in the 1990s.  Not all of which was good, but the fact is that Sonic became a huge franchise in America and certainly did not in Japan.  A lot of the people who are nostalgic for Classic Sonic are inevitably going to be nostalgic for more than just the video games; they're going to be nostalgic for the phenomenon, the signature attitude and lingo, the finger ever on the pulse on the Extreme Sports culture of the 1990s, etc.  Maybe these days they would enjoy it a bit more ironically than they did back then, but the transition is surprisingly possible because while Sonic back then was very much the era's impression of "cool", he was also funny, and TV shows and Archie were already well underway piling onto the Sonic the sort of weird baggage that it would become infamous for on the Internet next decade.

On 8/3/2023 at 9:38 PM, Wraith said:

 A lot of the ways they render  Sonic are bland in both classic and modern, but that's to do more with the art than an active change in characterization. In classic media like Mania Adventures or Seasons of Chaos, Sonic is way snarkier and more impatient than he's presented to be in Modern stuff. He's not taking anything 'Sonic CD' levels of serious but that's probably because nothing that happens in any of these games calls for that.

Mania and Superstars are meant to be more lighthearted fair, and the classic Sonic of Yesteryear wasn't just defined by CD. There were plenty of examples of him smiling, being playful or just living his life in official art. All they're doing is matching his character to the tone and situation of the game.

Good point about how the issues actually plague both Classic and Modern Sonic.  @Roger_van_der_weideobserved some time ago that this series has become annoyingly fond of using deus ex machinas to warp Sonic into various levels.  That's a bad thing in general but it does feel like it's used as even more of a crutch in Sonic Mania, which leaves that game's plot feeling all-but inconsequential.  Will Sonic Superstars' plot be just as anticlimactic?  No reason to believe so, but it remains to be seen.

On 8/4/2023 at 12:04 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Generally I see what you mean and agree, but I don't see it as a THAT big deal. Big enough it should be fixed, not enough to worry.

First, yes, Generations was veeeery soft and unedgy. So I think it's save to say Mania was improvement, right? At very least all the Hesse animation. Or in IDW comics.

Secondly, it's kinda inevitable. If you watched old Disney shorts you would know that even Mickey and Donald used to be much edgier. Heck, generally Disney movies stopped traumatizing kids, like good old Bambi or Pinoccio. So it's less Sonic problem and more Society problem.

Lastly, there is a thing I call Rule of Contrasts: similar characters in close proximity must focus on their differences to avoid redundancy. That's how many early Marvel heroes got their personalities: they meet in Avengers and writers had to decide who's the hothead or calm one.

Neo Classic now exists next to Modern. So it makes sense to make them different from each other. And it doesn't take genius to figure out Classic would appeal to kids while Modern will attract teens (...even though Classic fans are at least decade older than Modern... you know what I mean!). Generally it makes sense to make Classic a little softer and Modern a little edgier.

So really, if you want Classic to be edgier, you need to make Modern edgier first, or you break Rule of Contrasts.

....although I suppose one can argue that Classic Sonic is younger (or at least less experienced) and thus should be edgier? IDK, by now I need to grab dictionary and check again the definitions.

 

Well, classic Sonic doesn't have to be traumatizing; I just wish it gave off other vibes than just "fun video game".  As to the character contrasts, why do Sonic and Sonic have to be the ones to provide that?  There are a lot of other characters they could use for it and I feel the Sonics being perplexed by each other's dialects is enough of a dynamic for them.

 

On 8/4/2023 at 9:57 AM, Palas said:

It's plain for everyone that Classic Sonic as packaged today is just a sanitized version of itself in attitude and position towards the world, but I do think you're misplacing a little of the function Sonic had as a mascot. Far from a literary character, a mascot needs to promote the company's values and project a certain image relative to other companies, but not in a well-rounded, storified manner. Whatever Sonic did at any given time never mattered as much as what he does, archetypically. And that should lead him to something as close to a universal appeal as possible.

After all, Sonic was perhaps an example of attitude and edge to boys, but he has also always been cute -- for girls or older people. He's much more of an empty vessel for whatever appeal you want to make him have, since he'd never get even close to sensitive or divisive topics. His opinions have always sounded more like "sexual assault is bad" than like "Palestinian self-determination is threatened by the state of Israel and the international community". His edge has always been an illusion and a choice because it appeals to extremely general and abstract values. And Modern Sonic inherited that: he still represents that to children, and the character resisted even his own games' stories when they tried to be more serious and even literary in character. There's a fantastic piece about on SUPERJUMP.

It's true that Sonic's rebellious nature is usually so abstract that it doesn't function as much more than a "buy this to look cool" pitch.  Like the advice to "always be willing to stand for what you believe in", it is always easy to give and it is usually well received because people receiving it fill in the blanks with whatever beliefs they have, but few people very consider the costs of everyone actually following that advice and then going against each other because different people believe in different things.  Sonic indeed usually avoids that sort of quagmire because his own beliefs are kept vague/nonexistent.

However, I do not believe that Sonic is meant to be an "empty vessel".  Characters like Mario, Link, Master Chief, and the Pokemon avatars fill that role because they have intentionally little identity.  Sonic, even if he isn't usually a rebel in any meaningful sense, is still a more defined character whose own identity and desires factor more into his plots.  And since it's the most obvious and common comparison, there truly is a contrast between Sonic and Mario, but as it happens you could also replace Mario with Link in that sentence.  Mario and Link save the princesses of their kingdoms as a matter of duty.  What connection they have to those princesses is irrelevant, or at least it was at the time.  Sonic also rescues captured characters but it's not usually the main conflict, they're not usually authority figures, and because of the theming of a world of animals being polluted and shackled, it feels like it's a lot more personal for Sonic because he and they have an obvious connection.

For an even stronger contrast, compare the plots of Super Mario Sunshine and Sonic Adventure 2.  When Mario is framed for crimes by an evil doppelganger, he grudgingly accepts the judge's sentence and works off the debt by cleaning up the messes.  When the same thing happens to Sonic, he beats up his captors, breaks out and tears through San Francisco, in the process causing loads of damage to vehicles and presumably any people in them.

[Strickerx5]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:19 PM, Scritch the Cat said:

SEGA seems to be afraid of the backlash they have gotten when Modern Sonic games have gotten either too edgy or too quippy for comfort, so Classic Sonic to them isn't just not Modern Sonic; it feels like it's almost intentionally the anti-Modern Sonic, and in the drive to do that, they ended up stripping away a lot of stuff that was actually started with Classic Sonic.

 

I mean yeah, pretty much nailed it here.

Having gotten into the community around the time of Sonic 4, Colors, and so on; I view that this was very much long in the making. Places like this were (or really still are) filled with convos on how Sonic had lost his way and needed to just go back to "the basics". To make things "simple" and not do anything extra. To focus on the "core" and not detract from that effort. Sega directly listened to that and it's where the current "Classic Sonic" stems from. It's an entity solely based on the perceived desires of fans who wanted a basic Sonic. Hell, they really did start trying this with Sonic 4. Generations and Classic Sonic was just drawing that line completely.

Of course, the situation is a bit more mixed now than it was even with Forces. Things seem to have simmered down in terms of the whole "classic vs. modern" debate thanks to Sega finally just making different games completely for the two. Though imo, a large tension point still remains from both fans and Sega alike seemingly not taking into consideration how "Classic Sonic" was viewed back in the 90s versus how he's viewed now. Honestly, I don't think many people understand that Sonic was always pushing shit and had an edge to it. That part of the series is largely lost nowadays; not even just with the classic side of things. Though, when it comes to the main line, it's more so due to a lack of resources, budget, and general know-how. It really is a direct design choice when it comes to the Classic material it seems atm.

Though with that being said, I don't fault it for any of this honestly. Mania worked. Superstars looks to be working (knock on wood). There's a clear audience for this and fans who were clamoring for this stuff are happy. Nothing is ever going to be perfect. Sonic is simply an entity that has had so many takes and variations over the years that nothing is going to satisfy everyone at this point. But what we're getting ain't bad; far from it honestly. Sure, none of it really has the visual novelty of CD or 3&K (let alone how they were viewed at the time) but that simply isn't what they're aiming for; nor what a lot of people even want.

The mission statement from Sega and the want from fans was clear, all the way back with Gens. 2D, light-affair, Sonic gameplay that matched the original games. Nothing more, nothing less. And that is what the Classic side of the series is and will probably continue to be.

[Wraith]

8 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Good point about how the issues actually plague both Classic and Modern Sonic.  @Roger_van_der_weideobserved some time ago that this series has become annoyingly fond of using deus ex machinas to warp Sonic into various levels.  That's a bad thing in general but it does feel like it's used as even more of a crutch in Sonic Mania, which leaves that game's plot feeling all-but inconsequential.  Will Sonic Superstars' plot be just as anticlimactic?  No reason to believe so, but it remains to be seen.

 

Jury's still out but I feel like it's obvious the grand, sweeping vibes of something like Sonic CD just aren't what they're going for. I woudn't get my hopes up here. The new villain this time around literally seems to be a joke character. I don't mind that personally but i feel ilke they've set the tone pretty definitively.

I think if you want a Sonic game with the vibes of Sonic CD again, you should just say. That's way easier to express succinctly than trying to capture the vague feelings of rebellion and edge Sonic inspired when we were all younger and in a different head space. I actually agree that something more melancholic where Sonic's perpetual angry eyes have some room to come back would be fun, but I don't think the decision not to make that game is going against what the brand is on SEGA's part.

[Tornado]

Classic Sonic is like Sega of Japan Sonic as interpreted secondhand by someone whose only experience with the character is the Japanese box art of the first game.

[Kuzu]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:29 PM, Diogenes said:

And even if they did everything "right", would it even work for you, when you're not who you were 10, 20, 30 years ago?

This is a big sticking point whenever I see people constantly bring this subject up.

Sonic in the 1990's is a completely different franchise than in the 2020's. Sonic wasn't a proven IP yet in the public in the 90's, so they had to work twice as hard to stand out and do things different from their contemporaries. We are over 30 years past that point, Sonic is an established household name and even if he isn't as wildly popular as he was in the 90's, is an established brand. 

I don't know, any time I see these topics or see other fans waxing philosophically about "the good ole days" and how worse off the franchise is now, it just makes me think that we're exaggerating how much it actually changed versus our perception of it changing as we grow older and mature.  Like yea, Sonic has without a doubt changed from what it was in the 90's, but that's more to do with the amount of staff changes that have occurred since then. Like there's probably only a handful of people left at Sega of Japan who worked on the franchise in the 90's and early 2000's. In addition to the simple fact that technology has marched on and advanced from what it was in the 90s and the general taste of gamers have changed too. 

The current iteration of Classic (and Modern) Sonic isn't some calculated attempt at discrediting what came before, but merely the creators' own interpretation of what they want that specific sub-brand to be. They're not the same people who worked on the Sonic CD opening, so I don't know why you'd expect their work to perfectly emulate an iteration of Sonic from three decades ago, longer than most of us have been alive on this planet. 

[Mauro Fonseca]

20 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

feels like an attempt by SEGA of Japan to downplay how much SEGA of America did to make Sonic such a big deal in the 1990s.  Not all of which was good, but the fact is that Sonic became a huge franchise in America and certainly did not in Japan

ah

so that's what it's actually about

[Scritch the Cat]

3 hours ago, Mauro Fonseca said:

ah

so that's what it's actually about

Well, partially.  But I think another bit of it is Sonic kind of feels wrong to me when it doesn't have some quirky baggage attached.  As live-action Robotnik put it, "I wasn't expecting that, but I was expecting not to expect something, so it evens out", and call me a battered spouse, but we've spent so many decades seeing the Sonic franchise do unexpected things that get discussed and memed out the yazoo that when a new Sonic property doesn't bring any such strangeness to the table it's almost disappointing. 

I get that a lot of that "quirky baggage" was bad while it was happening, like Penders-era Archie Sonic, Big the Cat's SA story, Security Hall, etc, and for all I know if the games didn't become so known for it in the era when Internet use first became common, the parts of 1990s Sonic that the Internet fixated on would not be Sonic warning children about pedophiles or Robotnik shouting pingas or Sonic Underground in pretty much its entirety, but the fact remains that this stuff really was there in the 1990s, and I really do wish Neo Classic Sonic embraced it rather than ignored it. 

Granted, most of the weirdness was outside of the games but when other parts of Sonic have become so self-referential and fond of ascended memes, I really don't see why the subset of the brand that should be all about revisiting the past stays out of it in many regards.  Also, the mainline Sonic games in the 1990s may have been pretty free of downright weird stuff, but they still added new stuff, and Sonic Mania mostly did not.  I know that is entirely the fault of SEGA meddling in its design, but it proves my broader point. Neo Classic Sonic is SEGA's safe space; celebrating their past but only in "safe", expected and almost entirely ludological ways.  There's no drive to embrace and play with the really weird bits of their past, ala The LEGO Batman Movie or the Spider-Verse movies.

[Wraith]

12 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Well, partially.  But I think another bit of it is Sonic kind of feels wrong to me when it doesn't have some quirky baggage attached.  As live-action Robotnik put it, "I wasn't expecting that, but I was expecting not to expect something, so it evens out", and call me a battered spouse, but we've spent so many decades seeing the Sonic franchise do unexpected things that get discussed and memed out the yazoo that when a new Sonic property doesn't bring any such strangeness to the table it's almost disappointing. 

I get that a lot of that "quirky baggage" was bad while it was happening, like Penders-era Archie Sonic, Big the Cat's SA story, Security Hall, etc, and for all I know if the games didn't become so known for it in the era when Internet use first became common, the parts of 1990s Sonic that the Internet fixated on would not be Sonic warning children about pedophiles or Robotnik shouting pingas or Sonic Underground in pretty much its entirety, but the fact remains that this stuff really was there in the 1990s, and I really do wish Neo Classic Sonic embraced it rather than ignored it. 

Granted, most of the weirdness was outside of the games but when other parts of Sonic have become so self-referential and fond of ascended memes, I really don't see why the subset of the brand that should be all about revisiting the past stays out of it in many regards.  Also, the mainline Sonic games in the 1990s may have been pretty free of downright weird stuff, but they still added new stuff, and Sonic Mania mostly did not.  I know that is entirely the fault of SEGA meddling in its design, but it proves my broader point. Neo Classic Sonic is SEGA's safe space; celebrating their past but only in "safe", expected and almost entirely ludological ways.  There's no drive to embrace and play with the really weird bits of their past, ala The LEGO Batman Movie or the Spider-Verse movies.

It's a celebration of the parts of the past Sonic Team were responsible for, IE the reason the Sonic series even continues to persist. The fact that it doesn't acknowledge any of the shitty cash ins of the era is a nice reprieve for me, someone who's a fan of the Sonic the game and not Sonic the Brand. Sonic has been pulled apart by so many bad actors trying to gut the stuff that makes the series unique for so long that it's nice to have some games and promotional content that's aware of that and steps away from the tendency.

[Scritch the Cat]

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

It's a celebration of the parts of the past Sonic Team were responsible for, IE the reason the Sonic series even continues to persist. The fact that it doesn't acknowledge any of the shitty cash ins of the era is a nice reprieve for me, someone who's a fan of the Sonic the game and not Sonic the Brand. Sonic has been pulled apart by so many bad actors trying to gut the stuff that makes the series unique for so long that it's nice to have some games and promotional content that's aware of that and steps away from the tendency.

That view would feel more legit if Sonic Team (or as the case may be, SEGA) wasn't among the worst actors to pull Sonic apart since the 1990s.  You're also implying that absolutely everything outside the games was bad; I disagree.  Yes, it's easy to see SEGA's motivation for putting Sonic on a tighter leash in light of things like the Ken Penders lawsuit, but that doesn't mean they know what's best for the brand and their own ethics have often been less than sound.   Indeed, while you say Sonic Mania was a celebration of what Sonic Team made, it exists because a group of fans outside of Sonic Team pitched it, and as good as it is, it probably would have been better had Sonic Team let them have their way with mostly original levels and presumably a plot that wasn't a thin excuse to cross-promote Sonic Forces.  Many of SEGA's plot mandates that have been leaked are utterly moronic, and Ian Flynn showed them up so many times writing the graphic novels that eventually they hired him to restore dignity to the brand.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

That view would feel more legit if Sonic Team (or as the case may be, SEGA) wasn't among the worst actors to pull Sonic apart since the 1990s. 

I agree with this, and so do they which is why the classic sonic stuff is focused entirely on the platformers they made in the 90s and almost nothing else lmao. I'm a fan of those games. Not Sonic The Brand.

 

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You're also implying that absolutely everything outside the games was bad; I disagree.  Yes, it's easy to see SEGA's motivation for putting Sonic on a tighter leash in light of things like the Ken Penders lawsuit, but that doesn't mean they know what's best for the brand and their own ethics have often been less than sound.   Indeed, while you say Sonic Mania was a celebration of what Sonic Team made, it exists because a group of fans outside of Sonic Team pitched it, and as good as it is, it probably would have been better had Sonic Team let them have their way with mostly original levels and presumably a plot that wasn't a thin excuse to cross-promote Sonic Forces.  Many of SEGA's plot mandates that have been leaked are utterly moronic, and Ian Flynn showed them up so many times writing the graphic novels that eventually they hired him to restore dignity to the brand.

Almost everything outside of the games was bad. The only exception is the OVA.

They didn't pitch a game with original levels. They pitched a port with a 4 level bonus game included. Those levels still exist in Sonic Mania.

I'm the last person that's going to argue against new Sonic Team stuff sucking. None of that changes the fact that I want a continuation of the original platforming series without any of the outside junk influencing it though, and enough people agree with me to make this subseries a worthwhile venture.

[Kuzu]

It's kind of sad to me that because people are so used to this franchise sucking so much, that a game that revisits the period of time when the franchise didn't suck, is now considered "boring" and "playing it too safe." 

Granted, that period was a very small part of Sonic's career and way more people just see Sonic as this weird ass series that everyone is way too obsessive about, but man...

[Mauro Fonseca]

9 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

That view would feel more legit if Sonic Team (or as the case may be, SEGA) wasn't among the worst actors to pull Sonic apart since the 1990s. 

 

9 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

it probably would have been better had Sonic Team let them have their way with mostly original levels and presumably a plot that wasn't a thin excuse to cross-promote Sonic Forces. 

 

9 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Many of SEGA's plot mandates that have been leaked are utterly moronic, and Ian Flynn showed them up so many times writing the graphic novels that eventually they hired him to restore dignity to the brand.

ah

so that's what it's actually about (x2)

you know, you could just say "I miss the SoA canon" and be quicker to the point. It certainly seems to be waht's being danced around. What else are they not doing with the new classic stuff? As much as possible, everything's returned, and every example of what's missing from your end is turning into this.

 

 

 

 

[Scritch the Cat]

10 hours ago, Wraith said:

They didn't pitch a game with original levels. They pitched a port with a 4 level bonus game included. Those levels still exist in Sonic Mania.

 

That is not the way I heard it.  What I heard is that there was at least one point, after which they decided to make Sonic Mania, that they were planning to have a lot more original level besides those four, and Iizuka (I think it was him) started namedropping legacy levels.  I don't have a link substantiating my version of events at the moment, but neither do you.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone else reading this will supply one, though.

 

10 hours ago, Wraith said:

Almost everything outside of the games was bad. The only exception is the OVA.

I'm the last person that's going to argue against new Sonic Team stuff sucking. None of that changes the fact that I want a continuation of the original platforming series without any of the outside junk influencing it though, and enough people agree with me to make this subseries a worthwhile venture.

Lots of people disagree with you too, though.  I wouldn't be peeved at how your ideal of  a classic Sonic revival exists, except that another subset of the brand for my faction doesn't.  Of course, that's Sonic for you; its fans are always going to be against each other over something and most likely many things, but in some cases it'd be so small an effort to make overtures that I feel right to be annoyed.

 

1 hour ago, Mauro Fonseca said:

ah

so that's what it's actually about (x2)

you know, you could just say "I miss the SoA canon" and be quicker to the point. It certainly seems to be waht's being danced around. What else are they not doing with the new classic stuff? As much as possible, everything's returned, and every example of what's missing from your end is turning into this.

Well, not exactly, but I do think it's annoying how they seem to go out of their way to avoid it.  Wildbrain owns the rights to the past Sonic cartoons and Sonic Prime should have been the perfect chance to revisit them, but they didn't take it.  I understand that the version of Sonic Prime we ended up getting is not suited for that, but the base concept of a Sonic multiverse posed the chance and I'm mad they didn't take it, especially since that sort of crossover is very popular these days. 

Granted, going that route would require them to make a substantially different sort of story, but one thing I find a lot harder to excuse is the current SEGA's prudishly avoiding any mention of Mobius, even going as far as to force SEGA Hardlight Studios to remove a reference.  This is particularly galling with me because SEGA has no problem (or at least, had no problem many times in the past) with Sonic being from another planet full of anthropomorphic creatures.  Sonic X did it, for a while the games had a policy of separate worlds that were mostly anthro and mostly human, the movie did it, and if we're being honest, it makes sense.  There's a way to make your typical Sonic characters feel like they belong in a human world, but what they did in the Adventure-era games generally wasn't it.  And so if Sonic being from another planet is something they're fine with being canon, I don't see what makes them so opposed to that other planet being called Mobius.  It could and should be similar to how they handled adopting the Eggman name in the Adventure era; they changed what the character was usually called, but to make it make sense they also imported Robotnik as his canon surname.  Likewise I feel that in Sonic X they had a perfect chance to call the anthros' home planet Mobius since it wouldn't interfere at all with their declaring that the Adventure games take place on Earth.

 

[Scritch the Cat]

Edit: Just now realized this forum does not have a delete post option that I can see; my bad.

[Wraith]

11 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

That is not the way I heard it.  What I heard is that there was at least one point, after which they decided to make Sonic Mania, that they were planning to have a lot more original level besides those four, and Iizuka (I think it was him) started namedropping legacy levels.  I don't have a link substantiating my version of events at the moment, but neither do you.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone else reading this will supply one, though.

 

That's not true. Straight from the horse's mouth himself, Sonic Mania was supposed to be a small bonus game bundled in with some remasters. Iizuka took the idea and suggested they combine the zones they created with the old ones to create a new game with content matching the originals.

Quote

 

Lots of people disagree with you too, though.  I wouldn't be peeved at how your ideal of  a classic Sonic revival exists, except that another subset of the brand for my faction doesn't.  Of course, that's Sonic for you; its fans are always going to be against each other over something and most likely many things, but in some cases it'd be so small an effort to make overtures that I feel right to be annoyed.

 

Are those people in the room with us right now? Among Sonic Mania's long list of common complaints I don't remember 'doesn't respect the SOA canon' being among them. Genuinely don't think it matters to most folk, as most folk didn't get into Sonic for the cartoons. There's a reason Sonic 2 is on every console under the sun but you hardly hear about ASOTH anymore.

 

Quote

 

Well, not exactly, but I do think it's annoying how they seem to go out of their way to avoid it.  Wildbrain owns the rights to the past Sonic cartoons and Sonic Prime should have been the perfect chance to revisit them, but they didn't take it.  I understand that the version of Sonic Prime we ended up getting is not suited for that, but the base concept of a Sonic multiverse posed the chance and I'm mad they didn't take it, especially since that sort of crossover is very popular these days.

 

I get why people wanted this, maybe it would have been better than the generic 'party city costume' worlds that they chose but for me it's more important that a Sonic cartoon is fun to watch on the face of it than it pays lip service to everything else. That is to say it wouldn't fix a lot of the problems inherent to Prime for me. It would just soften the blow with a Spider-verse style reference fest that validates your brand loyalty, and again, I don't care about Sonic the brand, so that does nothing for me.

Besides, spider-verse can't even be bothered to write the other characters properly a lot of the time. How do you think something as lazily written as Prime often is would do?  The only thing I see coming from this is wild inaccuracies that inevitably flood from trying to revitalize dated concepts in theinew hip cartoon, and from there comes the fandom bitching about the quality of the references, the old Sally vs the new Sally, a debate I already lived through about three times before and am not eager to live through again. You'd say it comes with the territory and I'd say I'd agree which is why I'm ultimately glad we didn't go that way.

I'd also just be uncomfortable with a Sonic Cartoon actually aimed at it's target audience being disrupted by a bunch of half baked boomer shit. I'm not asking for the OVA to take over the animated side, so why can't yall keep it in your pants? Let them have it. They got their new cartoons, comics and movies with their own  new characters and I think that's only fair.
 

Quote

Granted, going that route would require them to make a substantially different sort of story, but one thing I find a lot harder to excuse is the current SEGA's prudishly avoiding any mention of Mobius, even going as far as to force SEGA Hardlight Studios to remove a reference.  This is particularly galling with me because SEGA has no problem (or at least, had no problem many times in the past) with Sonic being from another planet full of anthropomorphic creatures.  Sonic X did it, for a while the games had a policy of separate worlds that were mostly anthro and mostly human, the movie did it, and if we're being honest, it makes sense.  There's a way to make your typical Sonic characters feel like they belong in a human world, but what they did in the Adventure-era games generally wasn't it.  And so if Sonic being from another planet is something they're fine with being canon, I don't see what makes them so opposed to that other planet being called Mobius.  It could and should be similar to how they handled adopting the Eggman name in the Adventure era; they changed what the character was usually called, but to make it make sense they also imported Robotnik as his canon surname.  Likewise I feel that in Sonic X they had a perfect chance to call the anthros' home planet Mobius since it wouldn't interfere at all with their declaring that the Adventure games take place on Earth.

I don't really know what to say here as I've never given a shit what Sonic's planet is called. I'm not even sure I like the idea of there being another planet. I don't like the Sonic IP drawing attention to worldbuilding so much. and I don't like the world having too many places Sonic can't get to on foot by himself. It's why I'd ultimately never ask for OVA's land of sky/darkness concept to become a thing despite loving it in that film. It's why I've never cared for 2 worlds even being a thing to begin with despite understanding it might have been the case longer than anyone realized. It interferes with my experience with classic Sonic's world so I don't care for it. Simple as.

I'm not sure why sega would have any obligation to honor this anyway as they didn't come up with it. They didn't have to honor 'Robotnik' either, but they chose to do that and chose to go another direction with this. Not sure what the big deal is.
 

[batson]

Man so many great posts in this thread! Great points from all sides of the argument.

Personally I guess I'll just say that, yes, the currently used version of Classic Sonic does have a different vibe than actual classic Sonic. However, this difference isn't huge. Noticable, but not enormous. It's not a very big deal to me at least.

No, personally, I'm much more worried about modern Sonic. Because it seem to me that currently, as soon as he is written by any western writer other than Ian Flynn, he's turned into an annoying hyperactive kid whom the audience is supposed to laugh at just as often as laugh with. Essentially the live action movie version. Sonic was always supposed to be cool, but in current Sonic productions they seem to want to turn him into a cutesy cornball who gets excited over silly stuff like balls of yarn so that moms in the audience can go "daaaw, he reminds my of my own son!".

If any version of Sonic is in danger of being lame in current media it's modern Sonic, not classic Sonic. But again, as long as Flynn is writing the actual games, at least we will get an acceptable portrayal of Sonic in his main medium.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

22 hours ago, Wraith said:

Almost everything outside of the games was bad. The only exception is the OVA.

By what metric?

You’re not likely to find a consensus on many things outside of maybe Underground, Chris in X, and Penders fucking up Archie as far as things outside the games go in terms of what is commonplace considered bad. And considering how small that list is, I wouldn’t say “almost.”