"Classic Sonic" seems like it isn't so much "1990s Sonic" as "Sanitized Sonic".

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

By what metric?

You’re not likely to find a consensus on many things outside of maybe Underground, Chris in X, and Penders fucking up Archie as far as things outside the games go in terms of what is commonplace considered bad. And considering how small that list is, I wouldn’t say “almost.”

By my metric.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

By my metric.

That’s a pretty weak metric when placed against others’ then, since it goes entirely into the whole topic of “subjectivity.”

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That’s a pretty weak metric when placed against others’ then.

The post was only ever about my metric, I don't care about what anyone else likes lol

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The post was only ever about my metric, I don't care about what anyone else likes lol

And I’m not really asking you to given how much this brand is expanding in areas I couldn’t care less about either. But I wouldn’t argue your metric as a standard what’s considered “bad” or not as opposed to just liking it over others you dislike. 

I have the same case myself with the Boom sub-series, as I don’t exactly like it that much and don’t care what anyone who likes it thinks.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And I’m not really asking you to given how much this brand is expanding in areas I couldn’t care less about either. But I wouldn’t argue your metric as a standard what’s considered “bad” or not as opposed to just liking it over others you dislike. 

I have the same case myself with the Boom sub-series, as I don’t exactly like it that much.

Pretend I said I don't like it instead then.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Pretend I said I don't like it instead then.

Cool. That’s much better.

While we’re at it, let’s keep in mind we’re not the only ones who like something about Sonic, whether in or outside the games.

[ZinogreVolt]

I think the hard split between Classic and Modern has come to both the benefit and detriment of both branches. Sanitized isn't the word I'd use, personally, but it is lacking in some ways that seem really arbitrary. The dichotomy between games like Frontiers and Superstars does play to what I feel is a largely successful appeal of the series, and it allows more styles of games to coexist, which is only a good thing in my eyes. But it's the lack of intersectionality between these styles that's really headscratching. Limitations like no Classic characters in Modern games and vice versa have no reason to exist, and then there's other things like Classic Sonic just not getting vocal tracks anymore - even though games like CD and R are what popularized that in the first place. I don't think either style is overly sanitized, but some of the direction put down for both Classic and Modern feels misguided.

[Kuzu]

@CrownSlayer’s ShadowWhat does that have to do with my personal enjoyment of this franchise though?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

@CrownSlayer’s ShadowWhat does that have to do with my personal enjoyment of this franchise though?

Depends on what is your personal enjoyment of the franchise?

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

By my metric.

Then don't say "It's bad", say "I don't like it."  Unless you are willing to explain why something is bad, defer to humble "I statements" whenever possible.

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And I’m not really asking you to given how much this brand is expanding in areas I couldn’t care less about either. But I wouldn’t argue your metric as a standard what’s considered “bad” or not as opposed to just liking it over others you dislike. 

I have the same case myself with the Boom sub-series, as I don’t exactly like it that much and don’t care what anyone who likes it thinks.

Of course, the difference with Boom is that it was a massive flop, rather contrary to what SEGA wanted.  It also was by default somewhat contrary to the core brand, the probably not enough for some fans' liking (ie, for a while Knuckles was pretty stupid in the core brand, too.)  The demand for more Boom stuff to come back will thus be negligible, except on a case by case basis; for example, I do think Boom had overall the best portrayal of Amy Rose so far.

With a lot of the 1990s stuff, particularly the Freedom Fighters, things are quite a bit different.  They established their own take on Sonic's universe, but unlike Boom it took itself mostly seriously and developed a large fanbase.  SEGA presumably made a lot of money as a result and it presumably helped Sonic become well-known, but it also held SEGA of Japan up to what would eventually become a competing vision of what Sonic could be, not too unlike fangames today.  But even within the official media there's a lot of stuff that makes a lot of fans go, "Hmm, I think I like this better than what Sonic Team has done lately."  Movie Sonic is contentious but just about everyone likes what the movies did with Tails and Knuckles, and Ian Flynn has his detractors but just about everyone likes him better than Pontaff.  Certainly, nobody can deny that he knows more about Sonic than Pontaff.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Then don't say "It's bad", say "I don't like it."  Unless you are willing to explain why something is bad, defer to humble "I statements" whenever possible.

 

Are you going to address any of the points made in the last post or is this just semantics now?

[Kuzu]

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Depends on what is your personal enjoyment of the franchise?

Does it matter?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

57 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Does it matter?

Yes? Otherwise, why would you even bother with the franchise at all?

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Yes? Otherwise, why would you even bother with the franchise at all?

Why is my personal enjoyment of this franchise contingent on what other people like or don't like is what I'm asking. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just now, Kuzu said:

Why is my personal enjoyment of this franchise contingent on what other people like or don't like is what I'm asking. 

It isn’t? Where’d you even get that idea from?

[StaticMania]

Sega can stop making Classic Sonic the "cute" side of the franchise if you want...

[Kuzu]

12 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

It isn’t? Where’d you even get that idea from?

We're talking about our personal metrics of what we enjoy about this franchise versus what everyone else likes correct?

So my question is, where is the correlation between what I enjoy versus what everyone else enjoys?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

We're talking about our personal metrics of what we enjoy about this franchise versus what everyone else likes correct?

No, I was calling out the claim that "everything outside of the games was bad with the exception of the OVA", to which my response was "by what metric?" My responses had less to do with anyone's personal metric than it was challenging a claim made by someone else, and I really couldn't care less about personal metrics because I couldn't care less what part of the franchise you enjoy more over others.

[LongcrierCat]

This is an interesting thought exercise, thank you, Scritch the Cat.

See, I've been enamoured now with the idea of what Sonic was in the 90s for everyone.

Sega of America had two completely different cartoons and limited comic series that turned longest running licensed videogame comic in 1993 (almost 3 given Super Sonic Sisters which seems to coincide with the Popful Mail recontextualization into Sister Sonic) and later Sonic Underground as the last hurrah of DiC Sonic, Sega of Europe also had its own interesting takes in Sonic the Comic which borrowed from the overall Sega West Story of Ovi Kintobor while having its own band of Freedom Fighters and assigning Sally Acorn to news reporter role, and Sega of Japan was scrambling to get Sonic to be popular in Japan like he was in the Western Markets and were paying attention to the trends of what kind of Western Media was popular in Japan like Felix the Cat and Superman which lead into the very fun Shogakukan Sonic Manga.

And in a world now 23 years past the 90s we've all had wildly different opinions and perspectives of just what that 90s Sonic meant to all of us due to these cultural differences encourages by each branch having its own Sonic story bible.

I think this is why Sonic Prime is so interesting to me as something that clearly wants to be the Sonic equivalent of Spider-Verse without delving into Dan Slott's ideas of the Sonic-Verse (introduced before his Spider-Verse and his long run of Spidey after quick stints of writing for Marvel and Archie in the 90s on both Sonic and Spider-Man). They want to get into the Sonic Multiverse because of the current media craze that is the marketability of the Meta Multiverse Scene, but due to Sega's corporate restrictions, we're not being allowed to see what it would be like if you were to have Nikki Hedgehog of Hedgehog Town learn what it's like to be a Freedom Fighter and have a scene of him having a Lois and Clark scene with Sally as she realizes the nerdy hedgehog is no different from her Sonic or a story where Sonic the Comic Sonic has to meet up with the current day IDW Resistance and help rebuild a world that was colonized and roboticized by Eggman with the help of the Cybernik Infinite. And that makes me a bit disappointed tbqh that Sega won't let go of this kind of thinking that Sonic has to be this one sole thing because of "canon".

In 2023, we are now questioning what is canon. And in order to truly understand what is canon to a media series like Sonic we have to go back to why we canonical rules rn and why for the longest time I've noticed a religious fervor over peoples' favourite media franchises that was honestly alienating to me fornearly 2 decades now.

Canon started with the Old World Religions and is the basis for which we deem what is fact vs fiction of all spiritual belief in Churches no matter the faith or temple you go to. That which is non canonical is deemed apocrypha for not being in line with peoples' or leaders' interpretations of the Word.

Now I will kindly get away from that part of canonical discussion to not upset anyone's religion.

But now comes the next part of my talk of what is canon, so who is it to deem what in Sonic the Hedgehog is apocrypha or canon?

Is it Yuji Naka, Naoto Oshima, and Hirokazu Yasuhara? Naoto and Hirokazu both left Sonic Team after Sonic Adventure with Naka leaving mid development of Sonic 06 and left it in Sega's hands, so they're no longer the sole leaders of who deems what canon and even so in the 90s, Naoto even admitted that the way Greg Wray drew Sonic was inspirational to his own artwork of Sonic in later iterations in the back and forth between Sega West and Sega of Japan. Hirokazu was mostly focused on game design and left Sonic Team to work with Naughty Dog on the Jak and Daxter series, so he was already not an authority on Sonic canon in the 2000s. And Naka was perfectly fine with Archie Sonic in the 2000s even writing long letters that were published in support of the comic even while Penders was writing it.

Is the canon determined by Iizuka-san? I would have thought so, but he too follows orders from up above in Sega's Corporate Hierarchy. Even he has mandates he has to work with that get funneled to Ian Flynn these days on both IDW Sonic and his work in the games now.

And what of Pat Casey and Evan Susser, the writers from Funny or Die who now write the Sonic Movies? Do they determine what the canon of the Sonic Movies are when the movies aren't fully accurate representations of the games but rather MCU kind of takes of the Sonic series with Guardians of Ga'hoole styled CG animation? What freedoms do they have from Sega and Paramount's higher ups and who decides the canon now? Because in the Sonic Movies themselves, we've not seen the traditional Sonic structure of the original games as much as we've seen a surprisingly Western take on Sonic that closer evokes the Archie Sonic Comics with a more Sega Sonic accurate Sonic with Sonic initially living in a literal knothole then moving in with Tom and Maddy into a nice bedroom with a cool red racecar bed when he's not fighting Robotnik and his weaponized Spy Cams.

So... in the grand scheme of this series... of any media series...

Who determines what is and isn't canon?

I've been more fascinated with the nature of canon ever since Spider-Verse really delved into what is canon and now is daring to ask if canon events themselves are even necessary for a multiversal multimedia series like Spider-Man.

... who's to say the same isn't applicable to Sonic as well especially when so many Marvel Comics writers and artists even share their bibliography with the blue dude with the 'tude?

(That's been my Ted Talk, thank you for the time)

[Scritch the Cat]

38 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

This is an interesting thought exercise, thank you, Scritch the Cat.

See, I've been enamoured now with the idea of what Sonic was in the 90s for everyone.

Sega of America had two completely different cartoons and limited comic series that turned longest running licensed videogame comic in 1993 (almost 3 given Super Sonic Sisters which seems to coincide with the Popful Mail recontextualization into Sister Sonic) and later Sonic Underground as the last hurrah of DiC Sonic, Sega of Europe also had its own interesting takes in Sonic the Comic which borrowed from the overall Sega West Story of Ovi Kintobor while having its own band of Freedom Fighters and assigning Sally Acorn to news reporter role, and Sega of Japan was scrambling to get Sonic to be popular in Japan like he was in the Western Markets and were paying attention to the trends of what kind of Western Media was popular in Japan like Felix the Cat and Superman which lead into the very fun Shogakukan Sonic Manga.

And in a world now 23 years past the 90s we've all had wildly different opinions and perspectives of just what that 90s Sonic meant to all of us due to these cultural differences encourages by each branch having its own Sonic story bible.

I think this is why Sonic Prime is so interesting to me as something that clearly wants to be the Sonic equivalent of Spider-Verse without delving into Dan Slott's ideas of the Sonic-Verse (introduced before his Spider-Verse and his long run of Spidey after quick stints of writing for Marvel and Archie in the 90s on both Sonic and Spider-Man). They want to get into the Sonic Multiverse because of the current media craze that is the marketability of the Meta Multiverse Scene, but due to Sega's corporate restrictions, we're not being allowed to see what it would be like if you were to have Nikki Hedgehog of Hedgehog Town learn what it's like to be a Freedom Fighter and have a scene of him having a Lois and Clark scene with Sally as she realizes the nerdy hedgehog is no different from her Sonic or a story where Sonic the Comic Sonic has to meet up with the current day IDW Resistance and help rebuild a world that was colonized and roboticized by Eggman with the help of the Cybernik Infinite. And that makes me a bit disappointed tbqh that Sega won't let go of this kind of thinking that Sonic has to be this one sole thing because of "canon".

In 2023, we are now questioning what is canon. And in order to truly understand what is canon to a media series like Sonic we have to go back to why we canonical rules rn and why for the longest time I've noticed a religious fervor over peoples' favourite media franchises that was honestly alienating to me fornearly 2 decades now.

Canon started with the Old World Religions and is the basis for which we deem what is fact vs fiction of all spiritual belief in Churches no matter the faith or temple you go to. That which is non canonical is deemed apocrypha for not being in line with peoples' or leaders' interpretations of the Word.

Now I will kindly get away from that part of canonical discussion to not upset anyone's religion.

But now comes the next part of my talk of what is canon, so who is it to deem what in Sonic the Hedgehog is apocrypha or canon?

Is it Yuji Naka, Naoto Oshima, and Hirokazu Yasuhara? Naoto and Hirokazu both left Sonic Team after Sonic Adventure with Naka leaving mid development of Sonic 06 and left it in Sega's hands, so they're no longer the sole leaders of who deems what canon and even so in the 90s, Naoto even admitted that the way Greg Wray drew Sonic was inspirational to his own artwork of Sonic in later iterations in the back and forth between Sega West and Sega of Japan. Hirokazu was mostly focused on game design and left Sonic Team to work with Naughty Dog on the Jak and Daxter series, so he was already not an authority on Sonic canon in the 2000s. And Naka was perfectly fine with Archie Sonic in the 2000s even writing long letters that were published in support of the comic even while Penders was writing it.

Is the canon determined by Iizuka-san? I would have thought so, but he too follows orders from up above in Sega's Corporate Hierarchy. Even he has mandates he has to work with that get funneled to Ian Flynn these days on both IDW Sonic and his work in the games now.

And what of Pat Casey and Evan Susser, the writers from Funny or Die who now write the Sonic Movies? Do they determine what the canon of the Sonic Movies are when the movies aren't fully accurate representations of the games but rather MCU kind of takes of the Sonic series with Guardians of Ga'hoole styled CG animation? What freedoms do they have from Sega and Paramount's higher ups and who decides the canon now? Because in the Sonic Movies themselves, we've not seen the traditional Sonic structure of the original games as much as we've seen a surprisingly Western take on Sonic that closer evokes the Archie Sonic Comics with a more Sega Sonic accurate Sonic with Sonic initially living in a literal knothole then moving in with Tom and Maddy into a nice bedroom with a cool red racecar bed when he's not fighting Robotnik and his weaponized Spy Cams.

So... in the grand scheme of this series... of any media series...

Who determines what is and isn't canon?

I've been more fascinated with the nature of canon ever since Spider-Verse really delved into what is canon and now is daring to ask if canon events themselves are even necessary for a multiversal multimedia series like Spider-Man.

... who's to say the same isn't applicable to Sonic as well especially when so many Marvel Comics writers and artists even share their bibliography with the blue dude with the 'tude?

(That's been my Ted Talk, thank you for the time)

I'd say "canon" is a pretty straightorward concept but there's also nothing wrong with there being more than one of them and the occasional passage between canons.  Back when it felt like the canon of the Sonic Adventure series was mutually exclusive to that of the Freedom Fighters stuff, I did tend to advocate for the SoJ stuff taking precedence, Eggman over Robotnik, Gerald Backstory over Kintobor Backstory, Amy over Sally, Earth over Mobius, etc.  But that was back before 1: The official games' stories jumped the shark horribly. 2: I became aware of the concept of crossovers and multiple timelines.  I think it was DC Comics that made me aware of that; whatwith how whenever they retcon/reboot things to make them look newer and hipper, they keep open the possibility of revisiting the older takes on them by declaring that they took place on alternate Earths.  I'd consider this to be an almost necessary policy in a world where the most common reaction to a lackluster entry into a franchise is just to reboot the franchise, since too many times the reboot ends up sucking, too.

I think part of the reason I feel this strongly about having more of that approach to Sonic is that this company's actual approach of throwing out every idea that's even tangentially related to a less-than-ideal property has left it all creatively bankrupt.  Some might argue that Sonic Mania proves this "strip it down" approach can work, but the counterargument is that Sonic Mania is actually a better and less stripped down follow-up to Sonic 4.  Maybe some people valued Sonic Mania because it was a return to simplicity after years of obnoxious overcomplications, but I valued Sonic Mania because it was a return to playing as multiple characters after years of that being stigmatized in Sonic platformers.

[LongcrierCat]

1 minute ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I'd say "canon" is a pretty straightorward concept but there's also nothing wrong with there being more than one of them and the occasional passage between canons.  Back when it felt like the canon of the Sonic Adventure series was mutually exclusive to that of the Freedom Fighters stuff, I did tend to advocate for the SoJ stuff taking precedence, Eggman over Robotnik, Gerald Backstory over Kintobor Backstory, Amy over Sally, Earth over Mobius, etc.  But that was back before 1: The official games' stories jumped the shark horribly. 2: I became aware of the concept of crossovers and multiple timelines.  I think it was DC Comics that made me aware of that; whatwith how whenever they retcon/reboot things to make them look newer and hipper, they keep open the possibility of revisiting the older takes on them by declaring that they took place on alternate Earths.  I'd consider this to be an almost necessary policy in a world where the most common reaction to a lackluster entry into a franchise is just to reboot the franchise, since too many times the reboot ends up sucking, too.

I think part of the reason I feel this strongly about having more of that approach to Sonic is that this company's actual approach of throwing out every idea that's even tangentially related to a less-than-ideal property has left it all stale.  Some might argue that Sonic Mania proves this "strip it down" approach can work, but the counterargument is that Sonic Mania is actually a better and less stripped down follow-up to Sonic 4.

Completely fair. I grew up around a comic book collecting father who has an extensive DC and Marvel collection too that I still have boxes upon boxes of and that that's how I too learned about multiverses and how the nature of literature and media is so malleable and that it can literally be whatever you want it to be. I think the more interesting stories of a series take into context what really works for the series no matter the branch of the series canon it comes from and having it shine bright by polishing up its finer ideas and substance into a finely refined work. Even the stinkers of stories can be salvaged with the right work and knowing what to toss out and what to keep in.

Also yeah, I do agree with Sonic Mania being a more fleshed out Sonic 4 even if part of me wonders what Episode 3 would have been like if Sonic 4 had been polished more instead of being pushed out the door in the state we all remember it in.

[Dr. Mechano]

I think he's fine.

I do think that making him mute in a game where other classic characters talk (Generations) is weird. 

Sonic talked in several classic games, from text dialogue in 3D Blast's ending to a few fully voiced lines in CD, as well as some of the arcade games.

Classic Sonic's current design and aesthetics are totally fine, but they should let him speak if other characters are speaking too.

[Scritch the Cat]

4 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I think he's fine.

I do think that making him mute in a game where other classic characters talk (Generations) is weird. 

Sonic talked in several classic games, from text dialogue in 3D Blast's ending to a few fully voiced lines in CD, as well as some of the arcade games.

Classic Sonic's current design and aesthetics are totally fine, but they should let him speak if other characters are speaking too.

Yeah, I agree.  I really don't understand how they arrived at a headcanon about Classic Sonic not being able to speak, and so in those crossovers he comes off as baby-like and somewhat oblivious to what's going on.  Sonic just miming everything is fine in games or cartoon shorts where everyone else does, too--provided the plots don't get too complicated to understand them from just mime--but when you're playing one character who doesn't talk off a whole bunch of others who do, the character who doesn't talk is going to look "off".

Granted, I'd prefer Classic Sonic voiced by Jaleel White to Classic Sonic being mute in any situation, but if I had it really my way Classic Sonic would be voiced by someone else, maybe someone new, and there would also be a crossover with DiC Sonic, using the mohawk design and voiced by Jaleel White.

[SticksSuperFan14]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:50 PM, Scritch the Cat said:

Yeah, I agree.  I really don't understand how they arrived at a headcanon about Classic Sonic not being able to speak, and so in those crossovers he comes off as baby-like and somewhat oblivious to what's going on.  Sonic just miming everything is fine in games or cartoon shorts where everyone else does, too--provided the plots don't get too complicated to understand them from just mime--but when you're playing one character who doesn't talk off a whole bunch of others who do, the character who doesn't talk is going to look "off".

Granted, I'd prefer Classic Sonic voiced by Jaleel White to Classic Sonic being mute in any situation, but if I had it really my way Classic Sonic would be voiced by someone else, maybe someone new, and there would also be a crossover with DiC Sonic, using the mohawk design and voiced by Jaleel White.

I'm not very keen on Jaleel White returning as his performance was rough in the 2013 Sonic fan film. Since it's been 10 years, I imagine he would sound even worse now than he did back then.

[juiceDpunk983]

In regards to the 2 world's thing. I'm pretty sure that was the lore then they flip flopped and now it's just one. Unless it was explained somewhere that the 2 planets have actually merged together. Also I think Sonic's world in X was also just Earth originally and split. So it's always been earth, 2 world's or not.