"Classic Sonic" seems like it isn't so much "1990s Sonic" as "Sanitized Sonic".

[Dr. Mechano]

7 hours ago, SticksSuperFan14 said:

I'm not very keen on Jaleel White returning as his performance was rough in the 2013 Sonic fan film. Since it's been 10 years, I imagine he would sound even worse now than he did back then.

Yeah, unfortunately I agree here. I think Jaleel sounded great in the 90s, mind you, but he's outgrown the part. He just can't really do his old Sonic voice anymore.

[Scritch the Cat]

On 8/13/2023 at 9:25 AM, Dr. Mechano said:

Yeah, unfortunately I agree here. I think Jaleel sounded great in the 90s, mind you, but he's outgrown the part. He just can't really do his old Sonic voice anymore.

Food for thought, certainly.  Can you think of anyone who could do a good interpretation?

[Terramax]

On 8/4/2023 at 5:19 AM, Scritch the Cat said:

snip

 

Great topic! And something I've been feeling for a while, especially since playing Sonic Origins, and noticing the drop in quality from Sonic 3 & Knuckles. There are things that I agree and disagree with here. So here goes, starting off with the disagreements.

First, Sonic Mania. I don't think this is sterilized Sonic at all. This game's theme is perfect. It's ironic that the post should talk about a change in theme in Mania, and not not mention how Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and to a lesser extent 2, went completely against the original vision set out in Sonic 1 and CD back in Japan.

The Americans took something that was clearly of Japanese culture and molded it to fit the Western Zeitgeists of the 90's. With this in mind, upon analysis, Sonic Mania has returned to Sonic's original art designs and motifs, and as a result actually pays better respect to the originals than the American titles ever did.

As for the level design and visuals, Sonic started off as more fantastic and abstract, with a greater emphasis on platforming and exploration. This is why I'd play Sonic CD over 3&K any day of the week.

It was the American Sonics that chose to put a greater emphasis on speed, to the point where Sonic 3 & Knuckles' only real challenge is going too fast and accidentally getting squashed by moving obstacles that you couldn't see before hand. No coincidence then that whilst I liked 3&K back in the day, I clearly remember not being half as fond of them as the previous Megadrive and Master System titles. Literally playing through the 3&K segment of Story Mode, and more levels feel like a chore to play.

There is a distinct drop in creativity in the level aesthetics in Sonic 3 & Knuckles too. A jungle level. An Ice level. A desert level. Carnival Zone basically copies Casino Zone. How many machine themed locations do we need? We're in agreement that Sonic was meant to be the antithesis of Mario, etc, and yet STi couldn't help but copy Mario's uninspired themes and visual designs. And what happened to the colours in Sonic 3 & Knuckles? Why are they so damn drab in comparison to the originals? Who wanted Nirvana inspirations in their Sonic games?!

Back to Mania though, I agree with the comments that it also feels different due to a deliberate attempted vibe. This is clearly shown in the opening for Mania. It's meant to be a celebration of Sonic's past games. This is also evident in the musics and vibrant locale.

Final thing to disagree on here, but the suggestion that Classic Sonic should have voice acting makes my body shudder. I'm sorry, but Sonic started falling downhill as soon as he started talking in Sonic Adventure. Sure, let him speak in your comics and cartoons, and let the 3D Sonic spinoffs have it. But the classic titles should never, ever  have voice acting. By extension, no greater emphasis on story either, please.

Again, the cutscenes linking acts in Mania were fine. Not that you need to do so seeing as, as we've established, Sonic's world was always meant to be more creative and abstract. But those cutscenes were nice Segways that helps with the flow.

I'd suggest that the problem here is that some people seem to think that how Sonic was sold in America is the definitive vision of Sonic. It's not. Sonic was created in Japan, and he was enjoyed in Europe, Australia, other parts of Asia, and I believe in places such as Brazil too.

Let the 2D Sonics remain fun platformers for all ages, and easy to market to all parts of the globe. If you want your angsty, cool bro Sonic stories, you've got your comics, TV shows and spin offs to enjoy it in. Let us fans of the real classics have them the way they were.

I should mention that I like some of this media too. I liked the wacky animation from the 90's. I followed Sonic the Comic UK from issue 3 until about 60 something. And, more recently, I've started watching Sonic Boom and I love it! When / if I'm ever allowed to make my own threads on this forum, I definitely plan to discuss that series in more detail. Also started playing Sonic Unleashed for the first time in years, and actually enjoying the title's cutscenes a lot. So I want to emphasis that it has its place, just not in 2D Sonic gameplay.

However, I do agree with the sentiment regarding the sterilization of Sonic in other games. Splash Dash recently made a video that perfectly articulates as to why:

I'm in agreement that Sonic Team Japan are trying their hardest to make Sonic as neutral as possible, and this certainly has me resent the design in Sonic 4, Generations and the up-and-coming Sonic Superstars. The characters look generic and lifeless, and that goes double for the levels that look stale and inorganic. And the level design looks more like the streamlined mediocrity seen in Sonic Rush, Advance 2, Rivals, etc. No thank you. I'll be buying it to show my support of course, but I have very low expectations.

To be my own devil's Advocate though, people here are saying that Sonic and Co. come off as more cute here than in the originals. To play my own Devil's Advocate here, I suspect part of this is that 3D animation doesn't lend itself to the expressions in the pixel titles, hnece why games like Generations feel lifeless in comparison. But this just makes the argument again that Sonic Superstars ought to have been a pixel title again like Mania.

Sorry that much of this post comes off as negative. Not my intention to sound like I'm aiming it at the original poster or any fans of certain titles. It somehow just naturally comes off that way a little.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Terramax

[Palas]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:20 AM, Terramax said:

Great topic! And something I've been feeling for a while, especially since playing Sonic Origins, and noticing the drop in quality from Sonic 3 & Knuckles. There are things that I agree and disagree with here. So here goes, starting off with the disagreements.

First, Sonic Mania. I don't think this is sterilized Sonic at all. This game's theme is perfect. It's ironic that the post should talk about a change in theme in Mania, and not not mention how Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and to a lesser extent 2, went completely against the original vision set out in Sonic 1 and CD back in Japan.

The Americans took something that was clearly of Japanese culture and molded it to fit the Western Zeitgeists of the 90's. With this in mind, upon analysis, Sonic Mania has returned to Sonic's original art designs and motifs, and as a result actually pays better respect to the originals than the American titles ever did.

As for the level design and visuals, Sonic started off as more fantastic and abstract, with a greater emphasis on platforming and exploration. This is why I'd play Sonic CD over 3&K any day of the week.

It was the American Sonics that chose to put a greater emphasis on speed, to the point where Sonic 3 & Knuckles' only real challenge is going too fast and accidentally getting squashed by moving obstacles that you couldn't see before hand. No coincidence then that whilst I liked 3&K back in the day, I clearly remember not being half as fond of them as the previous Megadrive and Master System titles. Literally playing through the 3&K segment of Story Mode, and more levels feel like a chore to play.

There is a distinct drop in creativity in the level aesthetics in Sonic 3 & Knuckles too. A jungle level. An Ice level. A desert level. Carnival Zone basically copies Casino Zone. How many machine themed locations do we need? We're in agreement that Sonic was meant to be the antithesis of Mario, etc, and yet STi couldn't help but copy Mario's uninspired themes and visual designs. And what happened to the colours in Sonic 3 & Knuckles? Why are they so damn drab in comparison to the originals? Who wanted Nirvana inspirations in their Sonic games?!

Back to Mania though, I agree with the comments that it also feels different due to a deliberate attempted vibe. This is clearly shown in the opening for Mania. It's meant to be a celebration of Sonic's past games. This is also evident in the musics and vibrant locale.

Final thing to disagree on here, but the suggestion that Classic Sonic should have voice acting makes my body shudder. I'm sorry, but Sonic started falling downhill as soon as he started talking in Sonic Adventure. Sure, let him speak in your comics and cartoons, and let the 3D Sonic spinoffs have it. But the classic titles should never, ever  have voice acting. By extension, no greater emphasis on story either, please.

Again, the cutscenes linking acts in Mania were fine. Not that you need to do so seeing as, as we've established, Sonic's world was always meant to be more creative and abstract. But those cutscenes were nice Segways that helps with the flow.

I'd suggest that the problem here is that some people seem to think that how Sonic was sold in America is the definitive vision of Sonic. It's not. Sonic was created in Japan, and he was enjoyed in Europe, Australia, other parts of Asia, and I believe in places such as Brazil too.

Let the 2D Sonics remain fun platformers for all ages, and easy to market to all parts of the globe. If you want your angsty, cool bro Sonic stories, you've got your comics, TV shows and spin offs to enjoy it in. Let us fans of the real classics have them the way they were.

I should mention that I like some of this media too. I liked the wacky animation from the 90's. I followed Sonic the Comic UK from issue 3 until about 60 something. And, more recently, I've started watching Sonic Boom and I love it! When / if I'm ever allowed to make my own threads on this forum, I definitely plan to discuss that series in more detail. Also started playing Sonic Unleashed for the first time in years, and actually enjoying the title's cutscenes a lot. So I want to emphasis that it has its place, just not in 2D Sonic gameplay.

I'm impressed to see that this discourse is alive in 2023. Every piece of information we have makes it difficult to divide the classic era between "American Sonic" and "Japanese Sonic" when it comes to the games. Yasuhara was the lead designer for all three (four?) games, and Naka was the lead programmer for them too. SEGA of Japan was still the parent company all this time and even Sonic 3D Blast, an outlier that was programmed and implemented by a third party, was still designed by Japanese staff including Yasuhara and Iizuka. You can't really call Sonic 2 and 3&K "an American interpretation of Sonic". There is no such thing, and even if there was, it'd be completely in line with the goal of making Sonic in the first place: to have a mascot that's popular in the US.

If anything, it was the Master System games that first relied on simpler level concepts: Bridge Zone; Jungle Zone; Underground Zone; Sky High Zone. Surely you can see what I'm getting at: not only "a desert level" was an unexplored concept in mainline Sonic before Sandopolis, there aren't desert levels like Sonic's. To say they're uninspired completely ignores the aesthetic that's unique to Sonic -- and I'll go ahead and claim it's because you take it for granted. Not to mention, as long as Sonic is a hedgehog who fights a mad scientist who builds robots, we'll need machine levels. They're a natural consequence of what's at the very core of the series. 

[Scritch the Cat]

I hope that Terramax is at least aware that his preference for Sonic CD over Sonic 3&K is likely an extreme minority position, especially when it comes to gameplay. 

On the other hand, he's not the first to opine that this series' artstyle lost some of its uniqueness in S3&K, essentially because they were trying for more realism.  I recall reading an article about Sonic Mania walking back some of those innovations to return more to abstraction and surrealism. Still, it's not fair to call what the S3&K developers did a mistake.  They were doing what current trends implied they needed to do in order to impress, and at the time, impress it did.  And looked at in the right way, it definitely fits Sonic.  This is a series that is (often) about the beauty of nature being threatened by excessive industrialism, and while CD played heavily into that, the fact that its underlying artstyle is so surreal meant that often it was less through accurate depiction of nature or industry than by switching between appealing and ugly colors.  Effective, yes, but not all that honest.  I also wager it makes a lot more people nauseous than...well, pretty much any other Classic Sonic game except maybe Knuckles' Chaotix.  By contrast, Angel Island Zone in Sonic 3 deliberately hits you close to home by making a forest as realistically beautiful as they could manage on the Genesis era, which makes for a more realistic mood swing when Robotnik sets it on fire. 

I think people have likely soured on realistic Sonic since then, partially because there was really no way Sonic could outdo Donkey Kong Country on a console with so much more limited color, and partially because how unsettling that choice often was in Sonic 06.  But then you still have the absolutely breathtaking scenery in Sonic Unleashed based on real places, which remains overall more favorably remembered than the gratuitous surrealism of Sonic Lost World.

[KayDen]

i mean, everyone wanted megadrive-era sonic to come back. sega still keeps spinoffs and alt series around, keeps making references to spinoff content in the comics, it's weird how there's a narrative for the longest time that soj "ignores" non-canonical content when the same can be said about any series that started in the 80s/90s, and thinking back to it. classic sonic was a memory card avatar on a sonic game for the ps2. so it's weird to imply as back to the 2000s when the detractordom was in full force, that st never wanted to return to classic sonic just to "spite" the fans or what was in those lines   

[Palas]

1 hour ago, KayDen said:

i mean, everyone wanted megadrive-era sonic to come back. sega still keeps spinoffs and alt series around, keeps making references to spinoff content in the comics, it's weird how there's a narrative for the longest time that soj "ignores" non-canonical content when the same can be said about any series that started in the 80s/90s, and thinking back to it. classic sonic was a memory card avatar on a sonic game for the ps2. so it's weird to imply as back to the 2000s when the detractordom was in full force, that st never wanted to return to classic sonic just to "spite" the fans or what was in those lines   

Out of historical curiosity, when was that? I've never seen that, and I was under the impression that the very idea of "classic Sonic" as an entity on its own didn't exist, or wasn't acknowledged by SEGA, until ~2008 more or less. They wouldn't use classic Sonic fr anything because they considered there was only one Sonic (so much so that they'd use Modern Sonic on the cover of a classic Sonic games).

[Scritch the Cat]

5 hours ago, Palas said:

Out of historical curiosity, when was that? I've never seen that, and I was under the impression that the very idea of "classic Sonic" as an entity on its own didn't exist, or wasn't acknowledged by SEGA, until ~2008 more or less. They wouldn't use classic Sonic fr anything because they considered there was only one Sonic (so much so that they'd use Modern Sonic on the cover of a classic Sonic games).

Here too, hindsight is 20/20 but things were different in the past.  Sonic Adventure, like Sonic 3 & Knuckles before it, was made at a time when pushing "forward" was still the dominant trend in the gaming industry.  It was a rush to make the most powerful consoles, the most HD graphics, and the hippest characters, and often brand identity and practicality were sacrificed to achieve that.  As the villain of Robots put it, "Why be you, when you can be new?" There were always people who complained about the Adventure era's unfocused design and deviation from what the series had been, but while the biggest issues the Sonic series had were simply conceptual, those people's complaints weren't automatically seen as objectively valid.  But once we got the technical disaster that was Sonic 06, that changed.  Suddenly there was a growing appreciation for simpler times because when games are trying for less things, they can fail at less things.

I also think that it might've hurt that Sonic was conceived and marketed so much around being "cool", because what that is keeps changing, so they thought Sonic needed to keep changing.  Dead horse yes, but I was there, and while around the turn of the millennium, American video game companies were gaining on the once-dominant Japanese ones, anime was incredibly popular in America, and so we got Yuji Uekawa's overhaul of the series' aesthetic to make it more anime.  I don't think SEGA saw any reason to go back at the time, and probably it's because, when a series' identity is so founded upon being right on the cutting edge, nobody stops to think that maybe what they made is genuinely appealing enough in and of itself that a lot of people will love it even if it hasn't been on the cutting edge for decades.

6 hours ago, KayDen said:

i mean, everyone wanted megadrive-era sonic to come back. sega still keeps spinoffs and alt series around, keeps making references to spinoff content in the comics, it's weird how there's a narrative for the longest time that soj "ignores" non-canonical content when the same can be said about any series that started in the 80s/90s, and thinking back to it. classic sonic was a memory card avatar on a sonic game for the ps2. so it's weird to imply as back to the 2000s when the detractordom was in full force, that st never wanted to return to classic sonic just to "spite" the fans or what was in those lines   

Only a rare breed of toxic creator like Thomas Astruc will intentionally do things to spite fans.  But it's widely documented that SEGA of Japan and SEGA of America did not see eye-to-eye, and there is ample reason to believe the brass in Japan were befuddled and distraught that the Sonic brand did so much better in America and wanted to overhaul it to do better in Japan.

[FlameStream]

A pendulum swings both ways. The shounen focus attracted of new blood, so nowadays there is a lot of people longing for it like those that used to long the genesis era were.

[Wraith]

On 8/16/2023 at 4:06 PM, Scritch the Cat said:

I hope that Terramax is at least aware that his preference for Sonic CD over Sonic 3&K is likely an extreme minority position, especially when it comes to gameplay. 

On the other hand, he's not the first to opine that this series' artstyle lost some of its uniqueness in S3&K, essentially because they were trying for more realism.  I recall reading an article about Sonic Mania walking back some of those innovations to return more to abstraction and surrealism. Still, it's not fair to call what the S3&K developers did a mistake.  They were doing what current trends implied they needed to do in order to impress, and at the time, impress it did.  And looked at in the right way, it definitely fits Sonic.  This is a series that is (often) about the beauty of nature being threatened by excessive industrialism, and while CD played heavily into that, the fact that its underlying artstyle is so surreal meant that often it was less through accurate depiction of nature or industry than by switching between appealing and ugly colors.  Effective, yes, but not all that honest.  I also wager it makes a lot more people nauseous than...well, pretty much any other Classic Sonic game except maybe Knuckles' Chaotix.  By contrast, Angel Island Zone in Sonic 3 deliberately hits you close to home by making a forest as realistically beautiful as they could manage on the Genesis era, which makes for a more realistic mood swing when Robotnik sets it on fire. 

I think people have likely soured on realistic Sonic since then, partially because there was really no way Sonic could outdo Donkey Kong Country on a console with so much more limited color, and partially because how unsettling that choice often was in Sonic 06.  But then you still have the absolutely breathtaking scenery in Sonic Unleashed based on real places, which remains overall more favorably remembered than the gratuitous surrealism of Sonic Lost World.

If Sonic himself isn't an "honest" depiction of a hedgehog, I'm not sure why his world should be an honest depiction of nature. CD is exaggerated but most of the levels are still identifiable as natural on some level. if that was too much, Sonic 1 struck a fine enough balance. There was no reason to go the realism route other than IMO chasing trends which is the series's biggest, long standing issue. they have something unique that no one else is doing and decide to throw it out in order to fit in, damaging the brand's longevity in the process.

[KayDen]

19 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Only a rare breed of toxic creator like Thomas Astruc will intentionally do things to spite fans.  But it's widely documented that SEGA of Japan and SEGA of America did not see eye-to-eye, and there is ample reason to believe the brass in Japan were befuddled and distraught that the Sonic brand did so much better in America and wanted to overhaul it to do better in Japan.

the miraculous ladybug guy? i watched that show occasionally but don't know what has to do with the creator. givein that the show is aimed at a teenybopper audience and some creators seen other examples of fandomwank enough to tell them to backoff, i only assume that person has seen examples 

the whole between soj and soa seems more like a point of vanity from the fanbase after revelations, hayao kept faith in kalinske because he (hayao) desperately wanted a arcade themepark model, kalinske kept making weird decisions for example catering the 32x to rival the cd-i or any non-nintendo and non-sony console (purposely aiming low) the ads for the first sonic game was a fluke on his part, but regardless it's not like sega immediately left the industry as a whole for not listening to the same guy who got into trouble with the court previously with the flintstones vitamins, neither does that apply in the fandom's/media's/communitie's favors given the lack of reality on their parts (KEK) and with the sonic fanbase wanting to overshadow it's series, they also justified that fandoms are the worst part of any franchise in the long run. imagine wanting to find a red letter media clone to latch onto when all they have is some former newgrounds animator that's been around since early 2000s deviantart while that person can't even properly explain why he thinks a game "sucks" 

[Palas]

21 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Here too, hindsight is 20/20 but things were different in the past.  Sonic Adventure, like Sonic 3 & Knuckles before it, was made at a time when pushing "forward" was still the dominant trend in the gaming industry.  It was a rush to make the most powerful consoles, the most HD graphics, and the hippest characters, and often brand identity and practicality were sacrificed to achieve that.  As the villain of Robots put it, "Why be you, when you can be new?" There were always people who complained about the Adventure era's unfocused design and deviation from what the series had been, but while the biggest issues the Sonic series had were simply conceptual, those people's complaints weren't automatically seen as objectively valid.  But once we got the technical disaster that was Sonic 06, that changed.  Suddenly there was a growing appreciation for simpler times because when games are trying for less things, they can fail at less things.

I also think that it might've hurt that Sonic was conceived and marketed so much around being "cool", because what that is keeps changing, so they thought Sonic needed to keep changing.  Dead horse yes, but I was there, and while around the turn of the millennium, American video game companies were gaining on the once-dominant Japanese ones, anime was incredibly popular in America, and so we got Yuji Uekawa's overhaul of the series' aesthetic to make it more anime.  I don't think SEGA saw any reason to go back at the time, and probably it's because, when a series' identity is so founded upon being right on the cutting edge, nobody stops to think that maybe what they made is genuinely appealing enough in and of itself that a lot of people will love it even if it hasn't been on the cutting edge for decades.

Although I was referring specifically to the memory card with Classic Sonic as avatar, wrote my post like a Neanderthal and can't edit my posts, it's true Sonic as a franchise was forced to reflect upon itself after 06. As a flagship franchise, it had no choice but to go forward until Sonic Adventure 2 at the very least, so the idea of a "classic Sonic" couldn't possibly begin to exist, let alone be promoted. Sonic's brand identity was its ability to portray the console's highest power, most impressive game design and aesthetics (much like Zelda is today to Nintendo). Of course, there are traces of the idea of a "retro" or "classic" Sonic since at least 2000, not even 10 years into Sonic's history. But for SEGA itself to treat it as such, that only came much later as far as I know.

[Scritch the Cat]

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

If Sonic himself isn't an "honest" depiction of a hedgehog, I'm not sure why his world should be an honest depiction of nature. CD is exaggerated but most of the levels are still identifiable as natural on some level. if that was too much, Sonic 1 struck a fine enough balance. There was no reason to go the realism route other than IMO chasing trends which is the series's biggest, long standing issue. they have something unique that no one else is doing and decide to throw it out in order to fit in, damaging the brand's longevity in the process.

Well, nobody said each game could only have one priority for all of its graphics, but many times when designing a product, "realism" isn't usually as high a priority as "creating imagery that human minds, based on the conditions of the real world, have adapted to find appealing".  That is a lot more cumbersome to say, yes, but it goes a long way toward explaining a lot of what would feel like contradictions if you assumed that realism was the only goal.  Even the aforementioned Donkey Kong Country series, while most scenery was realistic in it, gave most animals relatively unrealistic faces, with more pronounced eyes and mouths, the better to emote and empathize with.  Likewise with Sonic; real hedgehogs are broadly considered cute, but not really empathetic.  Enlarging the head, making the eyes and mouth take up more space on the head, and de-emphasizing the snout, makes for a more expressive, and in many regards, more appealing character. 

Failure to recognize that distinction between realism and relatability, I would argue, is at the heart of that infamous original Sonic design from the Sonic movie.  They arguably made more of what an anthropomorphic hedgehog would really look like were it actually to exist, but they neglected to consider that simply being an anthropomorphic hedgehog is not why Sonic appeals to people.  Appealing shapes and easy-to-read emotions are more important.  I do feel it's pretty important for Sonic to have realistic fur to look like he's really there in a live-action movie, but otherwise I think something pretty similar to his game design(s) is just a lot more visually appealing, and pretty much everyone agreed.

But scenery is under no obligation to have faces or personality, so they can shoot for realism in the same game where the protagonist isn't all that realistic; the big question either way, though, remains "is it pretty?" 

Obviously that is quite subjective.  But here too, humans normally don't have a big problem viewing the sort of things they normally see in real life.  Not all of it is pretty to them, but not much of it is nauseating.  Games like CD and Chaotix, which give pretty much every surface a bunch of intricate details and patterns for their own sake, can be quite unpleasant to some people, and once going fast gets involved might even be seizure-inducing.  I'd tend to agree that Sonic 1 was restrained enough in that regard, but even that one is too unpleasant for some people, such as my mother. 

Does that mean Sonic should shoot for realism?  I think not.  But there's a there, there, it's probably related to what people are mentally conditioned to see in real life, and if I had to choose between just CD or 3&K, I prefer how the latter looks.  Even if it's the result of pissing into the wind trying to compete with Donkey Kong Country, it's easy on my eyes.

[retroverlord]

I feel like current and past classic sonics are two completely different characters.

One of my favourite sonic moments in general, is the Humans Against Genesis commercial (H.A.G). That was a great representation of sonic as a character. This sonic is not the same with the current classic sonic.

I personally think that the split between modern and classic shouldn't have happened at all.

[Scritch the Cat]

On 8/19/2023 at 4:39 PM, retroverlord said:

I feel like current and past classic sonics are two completely different characters.

One of my favourite sonic moments in general, is the Humans Against Genesis commercial (H.A.G). That was a great representation of sonic as a character. This sonic is not the same with the current classic sonic.

I personally think that the split between modern and classic shouldn't have happened at all.

It does seem like Modern Sonic inherited many hallmarks of 1990s Sonic, particularly as portrayed in Western media.  He has the wrinkled nose bridge, the darker blue color, and the propensity for quipping at his enemies.  However it feels like the "H.A.G. commercial" extreme of the character had its last breath in the aforementioned Sonic Adventure 2.  Admittedly it was a valiant last breath, whatwith Sonic spending more of the game fighting against a corrupt military organization than Eggman, wrecking property in the process and roping his friends into it, and even when it's finally time to save the world from Eggman, he leaps right into the President's limousine to make his stand.  I like it.  But the very next game Sonic, though not really unlikable in my opinion, started to be more about saying Friendship is Magic, in a sense.  That has come and gone since the plot warrants it, but it seems to be back in full force, judging from this blurb I got in the mail:

Quote

Through the power of teamwork, together we can accomplish anything! SEGA has launched the new Fast. Friends. Forever. campaign to celebrate Sonic the Hedgehog’s amazing fans. We all know Sonic loves to go fast, but he also appreciates the importance of friendship, teamwork, inspiration, and loyalty.

Fast. Friends. Forever. focuses on how Sonic and his friends demonstrate these values both in and out of the games.

That's not Sonic to me.  Now mind you, if this overhaul is what it takes to usher in a new era when multiple playable characters return to the series, then I'm totally willing to accept it, but it shouldn't be what it takes, and as often is the case it feels like this series is apologizing for past recklessness by swinging the pendulum too far in the opposite direction.

Though to be fair, I don't mind those themes in the Sonic series; I just wish they weren't presented like that.  I cringe when I hear Sonic touting friendship in dialogue that sounds right out of educational children's cartoons, but I love seeing him, Tails, Knuckles and Amy actually being friends in media like the Sonic 2 movie and Sonic Frontiers.

[Palas]

On 8/22/2023 at 5:22 PM, Scritch the Cat said:

It does seem like Modern Sonic inherited many hallmarks of 1990s Sonic, particularly as portrayed in Western media.  He has the wrinkled nose bridge, the darker blue color, and the propensity for quipping at his enemies.  However it feels like the "H.A.G. commercial" extreme of the character had its last breath in the aforementioned Sonic Adventure 2.  Admittedly it was a valiant last breath, whatwith Sonic spending more of the game fighting against a corrupt military organization than Eggman, wrecking property in the process and roping his friends into it, and even when it's finally time to save the world from Eggman, he leaps right into the President's limousine to make his stand.  I like it.  But the very next game Sonic, though not really unlikable in my opinion, started to be more about saying Friendship is Magic, in a sense.  That has come and gone since the plot warrants it, but it seems to be back in full force, judging from this blurb I got in the mail:

Of course it did. Modern Sonic is the continuity of 1990s Sonic, after all, and Classic Sonic is the product of a decantation, bereft of the elements of that continuity. You'll notice Sonic Adventure 2 is also the last Sonic game for a SEGA console, after which the franchise started catering to audiences instead of building them. Going multiplatform means trying to reach different audiences at the same time, who view their own gaming habits differently. So the franchise had to dilute its appeal, and the birth of Classic Sonic is just this process done again.

So I'm pretty sure the Western interpretation of Sonic, his appeal and attitude is the symptom of a material circumstance rather than a phenomenon on its own. Homeopathic Sonic is all we're going to get unless SEGA has a need to build an audience around itself, which reflects a certain value. Which is why I say Sonic is more of an empty vessel than anything: whatever SEGA needed, he could do. He could be a figurehead for a SEGA-sponsored Formula One GP as well as he could be for an educational game.

[Scritch the Cat]

On 8/25/2023 at 6:06 AM, Palas said:

Of course it did. Modern Sonic is the continuity of 1990s Sonic, after all, and Classic Sonic is the product of a decantation, bereft of the elements of that continuity. You'll notice Sonic Adventure 2 is also the last Sonic game for a SEGA console, after which the franchise started catering to audiences instead of building them. Going multiplatform means trying to reach different audiences at the same time, who view their own gaming habits differently. So the franchise had to dilute its appeal, and the birth of Classic Sonic is just this process done again.

So I'm pretty sure the Western interpretation of Sonic, his appeal and attitude is the symptom of a material circumstance rather than a phenomenon on its own. Homeopathic Sonic is all we're going to get unless SEGA has a need to build an audience around itself, which reflects a certain value. Which is why I say Sonic is more of an empty vessel than anything: whatever SEGA needed, he could do. He could be a figurehead for a SEGA-sponsored Formula One GP as well as he could be for an educational game.

Good point, and now that I think of it, this identity-crisis has always been there.  Sonic was presented in commercials as the "dude with a 'tude" that irritated square old parents but he also did those "Sonic Says" PSAs and had that trading card saying he doesn't swear or do drugs.  Moreover, as much as people may be tempted to assume that Japan always wanted a friendlier, cuter, and more "conformist" Sonic while it was the West that stuck on the "dude with a 'tude" thing, in actuality there was a lot of zigzagging in both regions.  Sonic as originally designed in Japan had fangs; these were axed in order to not look threatening for western players, but then the western design added the wrinkled brow to create the slight impression of glaring, and made Sonic's spikes a slightly different shade of blue from the rest of him and drew additional outlines between his head and his spikes, so he looked like he had a mohawk.  Japanese Sonic was also planned to have a "male fantasy" girlfriend, which also got cut by Sega of America.  Japanese Sonic was drawn smoking by a SEGA employee, while American Sonic did an anti-smoking PSA.  Japanese Sonic swears and flips people off in anime; on the other hand Japanese Eggman often tends to be depicted overall a bit more pathetic and ineffectual than American Robotnik did, the latter of which had a way of calling attention to Sonic as a rebel fighting for a righteous cause.

In short, Sonic has definitely always been many things to many people, and for many reasons, most of which boil down to money.  I don't demonize capitalism but I recognize it.  Even so, that identity crisis ironically is part of why I resent that "1990s Sonic" isn't a thing; because if they're going to do almost anything for a buck I think they might as well do that to tap into the segment of the fanbase that is into that stuff.  Is there merit to having a version of Sonic that just boils down to "Cute heroes battle cute robots to free cute animals in a silent colorful world with saccharine techno music"?  Quite possibly.  But I also think there's merit in a version of Sonic that calls back to the 1990s, same as Ninja Turtles calls back to the 1980s when it revisits the Fred Wolf show.  They don't need to go "edgy"; they just need to acknowledge stuff that was deemed hip at the time and what things were associated with Sonic at the time.  An example of this the series actually did do was giving Classic Sonic a skateboard in the City Escape Level of Sonic Generations.  It wasn't very well-developed as a gameplay gimmick but I think that sort of thing COULD be done more with in a way that feels 1990s-ish while still fitting Sonic on a deeper ludological level.

[StaticMania]

12 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Japanese Sonic was drawn smoking by a SEGA employee...

Stuff like this doesn't count, otherwise anything artists drew of their own accord would be seen as part of the brand...

It's like those images found from Sonic CD's Sound Test.

[Scritch the Cat]

10 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Stuff like this doesn't count, otherwise anything artists drew of their own accord would be seen as part of the brand...

It's like those images found from Sonic CD's Sound Test.

Okay, but this presumably still counts.

[StaticMania]

That's public access.

[Scritch the Cat]

There's also this:

 

[Guergy]

How was 1990s Sonic portrayed in Japan? Sonic was also portrayed as being "edgy", "radical" or "cool" when I growing uo. Say what you will about the mohawk but that was Sonic for me and many Americans in the 90s. 

[Phoenix]

I remember all those Genesis ads where Sonic was always too cool for the dumb adults in the commercial. The vibes new Classic Sonic gives out are certainly really different from Genesis Sonic.