Kishimoto Hopes Sonic Frontiers Will Take Sonic Team to the Top of the Gaming Industry

[VO.SUPER]

27 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Should they? It's not necessarily wrong to aim high, but I don't think there's anything wrong with aiming to make good games that a bunch of people like, without looking to set the world on fire. Not everyone can be on top, and doing solid work in your niche is still plenty respectable.

That's usually the MO of most licensed games, and everyone loves them for it. 

 

6 minutes ago, Iko said:

Sonic Frontiers has the potential to be succesful; it seems to be more polished than most of the previous games, and they put a lot more effort than usual into it.

Probably it won't bring Sonic Team to the top despite what Kishimoto thinks, but it could increase their reputation and give them some more visibility in the general gaming scene. The gameplay concept is too weak IMO for it to be considered a top game though, and the problems are at the core of the game design, so there's nothing that can be done without restarting the development from scratch.

Bowser's fury but larger is what Sonic needed in order to become "open zone", not to be transformed into an hack'n'slash wannabe.

I think as long as the game is just good then it already has bumped itself up. And if it's popular in Japan, maybe more SEGA devs will be attracted to work on Sonic and SoJ will consistently give better budgets and realistic timeframes. 

Frankly, if this is successful, this may also mean that Izuka was right in keeping the execs off Sonic Team's backs and strong armings won't be necessary in the future. The execs will just trust the direction. 

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Sonic Team doesn't need to be at the top of the industry, and I'm not sure they should. I'd like to remove all vestiges of the social contagion that is Sonic discussion outside the Sonic fanbase, but the path there is not to make the biggest craziest Sonic game ever. It's to just not be embarrassing for like a solid decade. The games can all be 6/10s if they want, just don't have horrendous crippling problems and we can finally have more legitimate cross-fandom discourse.

I mean....we've been getting nothing but that since 2012. The games stopped being messes, but they also stopped doing anything interesting too.

[ZinogreVolt]

Kishimoto's mindset here is appreciable, and I think he's definitely trying his best to make good on taking feedback from playtesters into consideration. A lot of Frontiers seems to be a direct response to the reaction games like Forces got, though some of these responses cam arguably be seen as misguided or not enough of a correction. 

Having said that, I think the game is shaping up to be pretty well received, I'm not sure it's going to set the world on fire (aside from with kids, it's gonna be a huge hit with them imo). But if a win is a win, then I think that's all they'll really need to make a path towards the sort of reception Kishimoto wants to attain for Sonic Team.

[Razule]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Hm. Care to specify?

There's this from an interview in June.

Quote

“Just like the Adventure series was the second generation of Sonic titles, we’re looking at Frontiers as the third generation,” Iizuka says. “It’ll really be that new format we’re building off of from here on out.”

 

[Kuzu]

Looking at it from outside the perspective of a Sonic fan, I can see their reasoning. Sonic fans usually separate these games through aesthetics, developers do not give a shit that Sonic's voice changed or that he makes bad dad jokes. The overall design philosophy of "make Sonic faster and more spectacle based" has been apparent since SA2.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Should they? It's not necessarily wrong to aim high, but I don't think there's anything wrong with aiming to make good games that a bunch of people like, without looking to set the world on fire. Not everyone can be on top, and doing solid work in your niche is still plenty respectable.

Persona was a niche franchise. But the love, dedication and pure effort of the dev teams transformed it into something much more. Its the poster child for why even niche games should strive to be the best they can. You never know what can change the gaming landscape, but it is not an excuse not to try. 

Even small scale titles go through the same roundtables. "You know what would be fun?" "Hey that sounds cool" "no one's done it like this before". Those are the things that make games stand out. Those are the things that push the industry forward. 

 

The biggest names in the industry are painfully slow to innovate because there is minimal financial reward for doing so. The maddens, the CoDs the Pokemons of the worlds are a decade behind the curve because they don't have to innovate so they rarely do. 

If the smaller companies and games don't shoot for the moon, almost no one will. Everyone should look to put their best foot forward. Reality, budgets and situations can shift that mid development, but you gotta aim high at least to start. 

[TSS Classic Comment Bot]

Posted By: Metal

… I wish him good luck. He’s gonna need it.

[The Deleter]

2 hours ago, NoKaine said:

You cannot actually think that SEGA wanted the game out because it "shouldn't take that long" when they just rushed Origins (which, by the way, had Sonic Team's involvement despite them also making Frontiers), which came with more bugs than it should have considering that Headcannon literally made their career making and remaking the classic Sonic games.

And games take as long as they need to be made, there is no arbitrary amount of time a game "should" be made, unless Tears of the Kingdom is also garbage, and that is a game based on a game that we know is good, unlike Frontiers, which is uncharted territory for Sonic Team. 

No one mentioned rushing in any way. Frontiers' outcome is up in the air right now, but depending on how adequate it is, the amount of time required for them to overcome these barriers of poor game design through constant, continuous player feedback alone, and not through their own ability, can't be reduced to a vague "it takes a long time to make a game, alright" point to be aimed at crunch concerns alone. It highlights how the only way for them to address these problems that have plagued Modern Sonic game design is through this constant testing, criticism, and rebuilding of the game around it, and how much of a handicap this production pipeline/team have on it's own.

It's good they have the feedback for this game alone, especially since the scope for the game allows it, but if it disappears and this same problem persists, it's a huge problem. If the team requires this constant feedback and destruction/construction of the game in order to achieve an average game's quality, then there's nothing more that can be done for this team itself, but to say it's fine no matter how long it takes, no matter what the end product is, is a pretty out of touch claim to make, especially off the heels of Forces.

[Johnster4]

Would have been better if we had this mentality was 10 years ago when he was the director.

 

3 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Despite the attitude of the OP post, this is honestly a good mentality for the devs to have.

It's certainly the most ambitious-looking Sonic game in a while, and they should be striving to do their best as well.

It's even gone to the lengths that Iizuka stood off against higher management to give this game, the time it needs:

So if there's problems with the game, or it's not well received (Which I don't want), can we admit Kishimoto as director doesn't work for Sonic games?

[VO.SUPER]

34 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

No one mentioned rushing in any way. Frontiers' outcome is up in the air right now, but depending on how adequate it is, the amount of time required for them to overcome these barriers of poor game design through constant, continuous player feedback alone, and not through their own ability, can't be reduced to a vague "it takes a long time to make a game, alright" point to be aimed at crunch concerns alone. It highlights how the only way for them to address these problems that have plagued Modern Sonic game design is through this constant testing, criticism, and rebuilding of the game around it, and how much of a handicap this production pipeline/team have on it's own.

It's good they have the feedback for this game alone, especially since the scope for the game allows it, but if it disappears and this same problem persists, it's a huge problem. If the team requires this constant feedback and destruction/construction of the game in order to achieve an average game's quality, then there's nothing more that can be done for this team itself, but to say it's fine no matter how long it takes, no matter what the end product is, is a pretty out of touch claim to make, especially off the heels of Forces.

To be fair, when you are stepping into SUCH a new direction, this is the best way to handle things. We couldn't have gotten Mario 64 in as good condition as it was without that, or Zelda Ocarina of Time. But yeah, that comes with a lot of hurdles, hence why those games ended up being seriously pushed back from their original dates.

Sonic Team and Kishimoto are absolutely trying to figure out how to take the lessons from their current direction and work it into a radically different formula for Sonic. But that isn't an easy mental transition for any dev team. Sometimes it involves playing safe in certain areas in order to keep some parts of the process moving smoothly. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

42 minutes ago, Johnster4 said:

So if there's problems with the game, or it's not well received (Which I don't want), can we admit Kishimoto as director doesn't work for Sonic games?

 Not inherently. He has still made good Sonic games. Forces or Frontiers being lesser (and still not even really bad games in Forces' case) doesn't take that away from him.

[Sonicka]

7 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

 Not inherently. He has still made good Sonic games. Forces or Frontiers being lesser doesn't take that away from him.

Exactly. Lost World was a such a great time, he can hold his head up high for that outing at the very least. 

The more I think about it, Forces is not what I’d call a terrible game anyway - it just sort of exists in this weird null space and doesn’t itch that Sonic scratch I’m after in any meaningful way.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 minutes ago, Son-icka said:

Exactly. Lost World was a such a great time, he can hold his head up high for that outing at the very least. 

The more I think about it, Forces is not what I’d call a terrible game anyway - it just sort of exists in this weird null space and doesn’t itch that Sonic scratch I’m after in any meaningful way.

Pretty much. People tend to conflate Forces as a bad game....when it really isn't it. Painfully fine or just good enough? Sure, but it is not really a bad game.

Honestly, the Sonic brand has not really been the laughing stock that core fans fear it to be for quite some time. Forces has not undone the good will that the franchise built up over time either.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They were hoping for a Sonic Renaissance when they announced Boom, so I’ll believe it when I see it.

That said, Frontiers looks ambitious enough that they might have something going for it. 

[The Deleter]

25 minutes ago, VO.SUPER said:

To be fair, when you are stepping into SUCH a new direction, this is the best way to handle things. We couldn't have gotten Mario 64 in as good condition as it was without that, or Zelda Ocarina of Time. But yeah, that comes with a lot of hurdles, hence why those games ended up being seriously pushed back from their original dates.

Sonic Team and Kishimoto are absolutely trying to figure out how to take the lessons from their current direction and work it into a radically different formula for Sonic. But that isn't an easy mental transition for any dev team. Sometimes it involves playing safe in certain areas in order to keep some parts of the process moving smoothly. 

I'm not saying this approach was unnecessary for Frontiers. I've always believed the opposite; if this game was going to succeed, it needed constant rebuilding to make the absolute best there can be.

That's not the aspect of the playtesting changes that I was citing. It's combat, which has been used in past games, has been used in other adjacent action games to be observed, and could have been a separate component as the gimmick of a more typical 3D Sonic game to begin with. Imagine if that latter descriptor was the case, and it had come out without playtesting. Those same issues would have been present at launch of such a game, like the other maligned gimmicks and ideas in the series that never received external feedback.

That's not a case of figuring out some radical new game design we want to envision is happening with this game, as Sonic Team finally have the tools and means to work in the "secret sauce" games like BotW or other series-evolving games attempt to do. That is a basic element of game design that has existed outside of Sonic for quite some time, and that a lot of developers already have the means to create and introduce similarly without this feedback as a safety net. That's where the concern comes in.

[Wraith]

The sentiment is nice, on the surface but mostly reads as a red flag to me. Kishimoto is the latest in a long line of directors that can only see Sonic expanding if he diluted it with elements from more successful products. It hasn't worked yet and there's no reason to believe this time will be different.

You rarely get to the top of the industry by cribbing as many popular games and pandering to as many people as possible. You get there by doing what only you can do, as best as you can do. Mario isn't ever an action/RPG/exploration/platformer mix. It's a game about jumping, by the best 'game about jumping' guys in the entire medium. The only thing Sonic ever needed to be was so uniquely good at his thing that you couldn't get anything like it anywhere else. Frontiers is the opposite. There are many, many other products that come to mind even at a glance, which puts them at a higher risk for failure as more comparisons become obvious. Even if Shadow the Hedgehog was competent, it would never be considered an industry tipping trailblazer in an industry where Jak had already existed for years. If this is the target they've set for themselves their approach is actually counterproductive.

 

I fear all that will result from this ambition is listening to too many different voices, resulting in Sonic losing even more of his identity than he already has. With all that in mind I'd rather the game be a wakeup call instead of a success story. 

[The Deleter]

There's too much attached to this game for me to want it to be a full-stop wake up call, (if this game and it's reception goes bomba I'd say we could guarantee the tone/narrative approach goodbye for what the 2010s were composed of comparatively) and I still want this game to be the best it can be just for the shock it would leave the industry with. But if the game itself is largely just "fine" to an egregious degree, I would much prefer the reality check from reviewers as well.

I don't really view this game's identity as much of a threat, though, because usually whenever Sonic Team designs a sequel off of the previous framework, it seems like it always reintroduces the classic elements into the formula more than branching off even further into those trends. I can't really see a sequel to Frontiers being a bigger, badder version of the game's divergent style and gameplay ideas, (even the combat feels like kind of a one-off thing with how the cyber abilities are incorporated) but on the other hand, in the same way SA > SA2 > Heroes progression was, alongside Unleashed > Colors > Generations, I do see them incorporating more of the linear, classic Sonic tropes as the breezy inbetween of their landmark games. It's just something they seem to enjoy doing to begin with, even in the face of the constant experimentation.

[ZinogreVolt]

I'm hopeful that if the game is well-received, then they'll still take whatever negative aspects it receives into consideration when making their next installment. I don't think Frontiers looks to be a case where throwing the baby out with the bathwater is really all that necessary, but there are aspects of it than can stand to be improved in the next game. I think feedback has probably done a great deal in improving the overall game, but there are aspects of it at a foundational level that can't really be fixed without upending the whole thing. With the next project, provided that Frontiers is met with positive reception, they can take Frontiers' well-received aspects while also making sure that the new game can safely steer clear of the trappings Frontiers couldn't really avoid because of what it was foundationally.

[Kuzu]

I feel like all of this comes down to what exactly do you look for in a Sonic game. The answer is different for everyone at this point.

Yes, we can point to the classics and just say "do this" but that's ignoring how the video gaming landscape has evolved surrounding Sonic since the 90's. I would love to have arcade type Sonic games until the end of time in the same vein as Mania, but I can't really change Sega's mind in how they want Sonic to be handled and I can't change how Sonic fans choose to consume this series.

Fact of the matter is that Sonic has moved beyond his roots, for better or worse. Yes, we can mock Sega and call them out for sacrificing the foundational aspect of this franchise in favor of chasing trends, but the fact that Sonic is still relevant to this day, whether it's through infamy or iconic status, shows that he has taken on a life of his own. 

 

Frontiers may not shake the foundation of the industry like they expect it too, but nothing we've seen guarantees its going to be catastrophe that "forces Sega to wake up". If 06 didn't force them to really rethink how to manage this franchise then nothing else will. This is what they want 3D Sonic to be, for better or worse. Even if you got a new director, I highly doubt Sega would let them deviate too far from the established formula they've had for a while. Once a brand has hit a certain point, experimentation becomes less likely as Corporations aren't as willing to deviate from an established formula unless they can be sure they won't lose money for it.

 

Frontiers will be fine; it will do good enough, but not amazing and that's all Sega has been chasing at this point. 

[VO.SUPER]

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

I'm not saying this approach was unnecessary for Frontiers. I've always believed the opposite; if this game was going to succeed, it needed constant rebuilding to make the absolute best there can be.

That's not the aspect of the playtesting changes that I was citing. It's combat, which has been used in past games, has been used in other adjacent action games to be observed, and could have been a separate component as the gimmick of a more typical 3D Sonic game to begin with. Imagine if that latter descriptor was the case, and it had come out without playtesting. Those same issues would have been present at launch of such a game, like the other maligned gimmicks and ideas in the series that never received external feedback.

That's not a case of figuring out some radical new game design we want to envision is happening with this game, as Sonic Team finally have the tools and means to work in the "secret sauce" games like BotW or other series-evolving games attempt to do. That is a basic element of game design that has existed outside of Sonic for quite some time, and that a lot of developers already have the means to create and introduce similarly without this feedback as a safety net. That's where the concern comes in.

Ok, yeah I must've misunderstood then, because I get that. 

I can't help but feel like combat is the way it is because Sonic Team are trying to slow things down in the open world. At least when it comes to enemy health bars. Whenever Sonic Team usually implement things like this, it's always with the intent of slowing the game down and the intent is frustratingly transparent. However, unlike say in Sonic Unleashed, there are multiple ways to progress Sonic without having to interact with the more repetitive actions of combat, such as dealing with trash mobs. However, combat at least with the bosses looks to be interesting and relies on maneuvering Sonic around rather than just repetitively smacking the boss with a single button combo ala Heroes or Unleashed.

Or you don't have to just rely on a boss that involves you chasing it in order to give Sonic a challenge he can manage. (It's funny everyone cites the Nega Whisp Armor, when this whole trend started with Egg Beetle.)

To be frank, I think Asura and Tower are good examples of boss design in Sonic, seeing as how for the most part they are movement based challenges rather than damage sponges. 

[The Deleter]

Quote

当初考えていたオープンゾーンは，もっとリニアで限定的なものだったんですが，テストプレイを繰り返すうちに自由度が高くなっていき，それだけでも遊べるものに変わっていきました。その結果として，電脳空間や敵とのバトルをすべて回避してもクリアできるまでになったという。だからプレイヤーそれぞれが好きな遊びを突き詰めていくだけで，スターフィールド諸島を攻略していけます。

Quote

"At first, the open zone we had in mind was more linear and limited, but after repeated test play, the degree of freedom increased, and it turned into something you could play on its own. As a result, it is said that it has become possible to clear even if you avoid all cyberspace and battles with enemies. Therefore, each player can capture the Starfield Islands simply by pursuing their favorite play."

Google translated, but damn, it seems they're serious about the game being completable without interacting with any of the major elements. Kinda wild as a concept, if not a bit confusing, considering that at the very least you battle with Super Sonic, I would imagine.

[Rabbitearsblog]

31 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like all of this comes down to what exactly do you look for in a Sonic game. The answer is different for everyone at this point.

Yes, we can point to the classics and just say "do this" but that's ignoring how the video gaming landscape has evolved surrounding Sonic since the 90's. I would love to have arcade type Sonic games until the end of time in the same vein as Mania, but I can't really change Sega's mind in how they want Sonic to be handled and I can't change how Sonic fans choose to consume this series.

Fact of the matter is that Sonic has moved beyond his roots, for better or worse. Yes, we can mock Sega and call them out for sacrificing the foundational aspect of this franchise in favor of chasing trends, but the fact that Sonic is still relevant to this day, whether it's through infamy or iconic status, shows that he has taken on a life of his own. 

Frontiers may not shake the foundation of the industry like they expect it too, but nothing we've seen guarantees its going to be catastrophe that "forces Sega to wake up". If 06 didn't force them to really rethink how to manage this franchise then nothing else will. This is what they want 3D Sonic to be, for better or worse. Even if you got a new director, I highly doubt Sega would let them deviate too far from the established formula they've had for a while. Once a brand has hit a certain point, experimentation becomes less likely as Corporations aren't as willing to deviate from an established formula unless they can be sure they won't lose money for it.

Frontiers will be fine; it will do good enough, but not amazing and that's all Sega has been chasing at this point. 

I agree with all this.  While I do think this is a very good mindset to have, they still have a lot of work ahead of them in terms of making the games have consistent good quality again.  Also, I'm not surprised that they are going in a different direction with this series.  As you stated, the gaming industry has evolved over the years and platforming games like Sonic are not the only type of gameplay style that you can have now.  Will Frontiers shake up the gaming industry?  Probably not, but will it shake up the Sonic franchise?  Yes, I can definitely see this happening.

[azoo]

Them turning Sonic into the game they're leading in with Frontiers feels less like a genuine "this is the best we can do" and more of an admittance of defeat. "If we can just make an average-grade version of trends done better elsewhere, that'll be the level of competence we can afford to make more of forever and people will accept". It's maybe a relief to anyone who's a Sonic fan that we might have a reliably 'okay' structure to depend upon, but it's not the ambitious message they're maybe hoping.

Maybe all this would come off more ambitious if it bothered to try harder at marrying Sonicy game elements into the game, but it seems to think combat is the future, while platforming and level design is optional, with little consideration for them coming together. It all feels like a weird security blanket they've made: Now with their new setup they no longer have to be concerned about being good level designers anymore. The fun is supposed to come from how you play, not how they design. They have an out, at last (even if incredibly flimsy), and with it they finally feel secure in the games they're making. Like saying they don't want to make Sonic games anymore without saying it. Not surprising, considering ST's track record.

By the way I'm not even saying the game can't find it's own ways to be enjoyable. Going by outside impressions, it probably is pretty decent at best. And Sonic fans only ever view this series as a character action franchise anyways, so it hasn't been a hard sell for much of the fanbase. 

Best case scenario is just learning how to bring these ideas together better in future titles. Considering they seem to think the combat-oriented approach is their breadwinner for this formula, I have really low faith in that happening, but it is what it is.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 minutes ago, azoo said:

Them turning Sonic into the game they're leading in with Frontiers feels less like a genuine "this is the best we can do" and more of an admittance of defeat. "If we can just make an average-grade version of trends done better elsewhere, that'll be the level of competence we can afford to make more of forever and people will accept". It's maybe a relief to anyone who's a Sonic fan that we might have a reliably 'okay' structure to depend upon, but it's not the ambitious message they're maybe hoping.

Maybe all this would come off more ambitious if it bothered to try harder at marrying Sonicy game elements into the game, but it seems to think combat is the future, while platforming and level design is optional, with little consideration for them coming together. It all feels like a weird security blanket they've made: Now with their new setup they no longer have to be concerned about being good level designers anymore. They have an out, at last (even if incredibly flimsy), and with it they finally feel secure in the games they're making. Like saying they don't want to make Sonic games anymore without saying it. Not surprising, considering ST's track record.

By the way I'm not even saying the game can't find it's own ways to be enjoyable. Going by outside impressions, it probably is pretty decent at best. And Sonic fans only ever view this series as a character action franchise anyways, so it hasn't been a hard sell for much of the fanbase. 

Best case scenario is just learning how to bring these ideas together better in future titles. Considering they seem to think the combat-oriented approach is their breadwinner for this formula, I have really low faith in that happening, but it is what it is.

This does seem to read more as a clashing of ideals from one Sonic fan's idea of how Sonic functions, as opposed to what the devs are actually trying to do with Frontiers.

I think at this stage of the game, it's apparent that this game won't be able to please everyone, but thankfully, for once, Sonic Team don't seem to be hindered by that.

[azoo]

Ah true, wanting slopes and loops in a Sonic game is simply a "clash of ideals", right. Wanting to not have every enemy be a big altercation in a Sonic game is just a matter of opinion, right right. Feeling like the environments should have more going on than an average open world game is just not accepting Sonic Team's vision, I hear ya.

I'm guessing the next logical step is to leave it if I don't like it. Let people enjoy this bold new direction. Yeah?