Kishimoto Hopes Sonic Frontiers Will Take Sonic Team to the Top of the Gaming Industry

[StellarBlur]

11 minutes ago, Cosmos Rogue said:

Kishimoto was speaking at a trade show to a major media publication when he made those remarks. Of course what he said is, at least in part, marketing speak. Maybe he will be proven right and Frontiers will restore Sonic Team's good name, but only the Sonic series needs its developers to reassure the public that they're actually doing a good job.

By marketing, I mean I don't think he's embellishing the truth. He's coming off as surprisingly honest about the whole considering his explanation about the control sliders not being something you'd say if you were just spouting out marketing speak.

[D.H]

I gotta be honest, I am long past the point of caring about what counts as "Sonicy" gameplay & what doesn't. Ignoring just how the franchise has already shaken up it's formula more than once, this is still a game that features elements that are no stranger to the series & the parts that are new to Sonic games are being done with the intent of becoming just as much of a recognizable part of the franchise's identity as the likes of loop-de-loops & Boost, but for a new generation.

 

If Frontiers does it's job & delivers an experience that defines Sonic for a whole new crop of fans the same way the likes of Sonic 1-3K/Adventure-SA2 or Unleashed-Generations were for previous groups of players, whatever complaints some older fans of the series may have about elements that they consider to be "un-Sonic" will be seen as something that's just as Sonicy as elements we've come to associate with the games during our time coming into the series. And honestly, I don't mind that. 

[azoo]

I wouldn't even be as annoyed with the line of thought in this topic if it weren't for the fact that it's about whether loops and slopes or interesting rollercoaster set-pieces are important in Sonic levels or not. And only tripled on the implication that they're not important enough to make a rise out of "if the game is good", or at the very least if they're way over here in an optional corner (where it's mostly asset reuse anyway).

I think that's just insane, lol. It's Sonic the Hedgehog we're talking about here.

[Kuzu]

The sooner people realize Sonic has no set definition, the easier it is to be more open minded.

Its evolved into something entirely now.

[azoo]

Nah, this argument just kinda mulls over the qualities Sonic has kept over the years in favor of focusing on what's different. It only really benefits the fans that like their Sonic games to have Sonic in it and that's it; leaving criticism for anyone who continues to care about the series for any specific gameplay reasons. It's a copout.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

6 minutes ago, azoo said:

Nah, this argument just kinda mulls over the qualities Sonic has kept over the years in favor of focusing on what's different. It only really benefits the fans that like their Sonic games to have Sonic in it and that's it; leaving criticism for anyone who continues to care about the series for any specific gameplay reasons. It's a copout.

Eh, again, this feels overbearing. You don't really need to lambaste people who are actually interested in this game as "Only caring for having Sonic in it". That's just needlessly elitist.

There are people invested in the franchise who can very much still care about the quality of the game. Just dismissing them as "easy to please" fans just stifles discussion.

[Dejimon11]

To go back to the main topic at hand. I do respect Kishimoto’s enthusiasm but man that is a bold statement to make. Like I don’t think they’re going to be on top of the industry no matter how hard they try. But just keep making quality titles and honestly it won’t matter.

[azoo]

I wouldn't be like this if ya'll weren't acting like I'm crazy or overbearing for thinking slopes should be in a Sonic game's levels. Just open your miiiind, Azoooo. lmfao

And a downvote doesn't invalidate my case, btw. Sorry that we disagree!

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

To go back to the main topic at hand. I do respect Kishimoto’s enthusiasm but man that is a bold statement to make. Like I don’t think they’re going to be on top of the industry no matter how hard they try. But just keep making quality titles and honestly it won’t matter.

It is a pretty bold statement....and a bit of an odd one to make. Not in the sense, that they're in over their heads, but it feels like such a weird bout that came out of nowhere. It almost makes me wonder if there's some slight mistranslation from the interview.

[DaBigJ]

You leave for 30 minutes and you come back to see people think Azoo is being overbearing for.....

slopes.

[Endy]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

The sooner people realize Sonic has no set definition, the easier it is to be more open minded.

Its evolved into something entirely now.

Isn't that kind of fucked up, that the series has become such an amorphous blob with no consistency to the extent that it is a point of contention that basic mechanics or aesthetic principles should be at least somewhat present? There's changing it up and then there's just becoming something completely unrecognizable.

And you know what, maybe none of this would matter if the game was bringing it's A-game and looked like it's shaping up the best of the best, but it's simply not, in terms of gameplay or presentation. There's a million open world brawlers out there, what is this game doing to outclass any of the things it's blatantly copying? What does this game have over other games aside from rails and springs that do all the legwork for you?

[Kuzu]

58 minutes ago, azoo said:

Nah, this argument just kinda mulls over the qualities Sonic has kept over the years in favor of focusing on what's different. It only really benefits the fans that like their Sonic games to have Sonic in it and that's it; leaving criticism for anyone who continues to care about the series for any specific gameplay reasons. It's a copout.

Yes, some Sonic fans do in fact only care if the game has Sonic in it. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but you're trying to argue with people who practically have an entirely different view of the series than you.

Its a circular argument that goes nowhere.

6 minutes ago, Endy said:

Isn't that kind of fucked up, that the series has become such an amorphous blob with no consistency to the extent that it is a point of contention that basic mechanics or aesthetic principles should be at least somewhat present? There's changing it up and then there's just becoming something completely unrecognizable.

And you know what, maybe none of this would matter if the game was bringing it's A-game and looked like it's shaping up the best of the best, but it's simply not, in terms of gameplay or presentation. There's a million open world brawlers out there, what is this game doing to outclass any of the things it's blatantly copying?

That is literally no different from any other multimedia franchise with different iterations.

 

Just...engage with the shit you like and keep it moving. I'm too old for this lmao.

[Tornado]

What if we all just to agree that Sonic sucks and to just ignore Nokaine when he tries to pick a fight over that tautology

[azoo]

Quote

I'm too old for this lmao.

You're apparently not too old for this, considering you're arguing about why we shouldn't care about it right now. On a forum about Sonic the Hedgehog. Why act above this?

What a weird farce, to act like having standards you care about is some great problem you need to let go of. This is Sonic discussion now, I guess.

[DaBigJ]

2 minutes ago, Tornado said:

What if we all just to agree that Sonic sucks and to just ignore Nokaine when he tries to pick a fight over that tautology

Only if you and I can agree that Knuckles is the best character /j

For reals though, yeah I agree with you.

[Endy]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That is literally no different from any other multimedia franchise with different iterations.

 

I thought we were talking about the games? Why would the games not have any consistency? Mario, Kirby, Zelda, Dragon Quest, Metroid, Monster Hunter, so many long running series. Hell, many of them with multimedia offshoots and having demonstrably changed over the years, yet they have features that are distinctly "them". Sonic, based on how it is being discussed, seems to have none. Do you not think that's kind of an issue?

[D.H]

1 hour ago, azoo said:

I wouldn't be like this if ya'll weren't acting like I'm crazy or overbearing for thinking slopes should be in a Sonic game's levels. Just open your miiiind, Azoooo. lmfao

And a downvote doesn't invalidate my case, btw. Sorry that we disagree!

I don't think you're being overbearing. It's just that, at least for me, I'm not gonna begrudge a Sonic game for not having slopes, loop-de-loops & stuff if it's trying to do something else.

If Frontiers or any future 3D Sonic game is going to be ass, it's gonna be ass because it's a poorly made game. But if 3D Sonic games going forward aren't gonna have slopes, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it, so long as they what they do have is fun to play.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, azoo said:

I wouldn't be like this if ya'll weren't acting like I'm crazy or overbearing for thinking slopes should be in a Sonic game's levels.

Except, that's not what I said. Where I think your logic is off is when you go off thinking that people would only like this game for having Sonic when those of positive mindset have expressed other reasons for it.

It feels like not being able to accept that people have legitimate reasons to like this game just as much as detractors have a legitimate right to not like what they see.

1 hour ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

You leave for 30 minutes and you come back to see people think Azoo is being overbearing for.....

slopes.

Also, please don't spread misinformation.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Where does the line fall between "the thing you're a fan of isn't a real Sonic" and "you're not a real Sonic fan"?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You gotta love how every time Sonic goes into a new style it’s always brought up how whether or not it doesn’t fit Sonic.

Seriously, folks have been doing this since ShTH—hell, not just the game (which in all fairness, you can see a point), but the character even at his best simply because he was popular for what he was—among a bunch of other trivial things up to having modern aesthetics. Wouldn’t be an issue if it didn’t conflate to “this thing I don’t like” most of the time.

[Razule]

No one's crazy for thinking Sonic should be a certain way, but it's a lost cause. If there ever was one. It's SEGA's franchise and they're gonna do what they want to do with it, whether or not we plant our feet down in the sand and insist otherwise. Personally, I'd rather look at a game on its own merits and what it's trying to accomplish than the specific features I wish it had.

Sonic means different things to different people, and it does feel a little silly to say something once integral to the series like slopes isn't that big of a deal, but newer fans won't miss them. Yeah, it is dumb that Sonic's changed so much that the necessity of slopes is something that's debatable. But that's what Sonic is at this point. Radically reinventing every decade.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, azoo said:

. Why act above this?

Because arguing with children is tiring. I'm at a point with this series where I take what I get, sorry if this upsets you.

[The Deleter]

Sonic Team fucked up with the conception of this game. They made a basic open world with almost nonexistent Sonic design (there are a few big ramps and slopes further into the island, but they're pixilated and I know how y'all don't like those) and combat, and thought it was good enough. People played it and told them it sucked. Then they added the rails. People still wanted the classic Sonic action. So they added the cyberspace stages.

It's a game that set out to do something completely divorced from the identity of the series, and was forced to course correct into elements the fans do enjoy from the series, just to accommodate expectations. And it shows with the world design. It's out of place, boring, and the loops and platforms that are there means nothing due to how blatant the automation is from first glance.

 

I ultimately can't bring myself to care that much though; not with the way the game as a whole turned out. This kind of image perfectly encapsulate how some people felt and hope to feel when running through the more organic Sonic environments, in the 2D games of the past but especially in the 3D games. This checks a checkmark in a box that some die hard fans have been yearning to see attempted for ages now. The failure of Sonic games to incorporate the meaning of classic Sonic's gameplay tropes into the classic aesthetic tropes has happened two games in a row by now - or arguably more than that - and existed as something that ultimately had little more meaning than a hollow visual homage, in the same way that people feel about the grind rails used in this game. Their incorporation into this game meets that bare minimum requirement in gameplay importance, and goes below the minimum requirement of people expecting to be visually assured that it's following those hollow vestiges of identity still; but the execution of this highlighted aspect of Sonic's appeal scores points much higher than would be expected for those that do care about it. And frankly, that's commendable, in spite of how misguided the approach was getting to this point.

Sonic Team now know they can't expect to get away with default open worlds that lack the basic identity that Sonic has been a part of since the Genesis days. Whether that materializes in the future as games that stay exactly as basic as these same barebones grind rails and floating digital platforms, or something that goes further and incorporates it more organically from the outset, remains to be seen. But for now, I see a Sonic game that is making use of the classic Sonic tropes to the exact same degree as what came before, which we consider average-to-good at best, while also going way beyond expectations for other categories of Sonic's appeal, and straight up materializing concepts that specific fans have only dreamed about for years.

I'd say I'm good with this.

[azoo]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Except, that's not what I said. Where I think your logic is off is when you go off thinking that people would only like this game for having Sonic when those of positive mindset have expressed other reasons for it.

It feels like not being able to accept that people have legitimate reasons to like this game just as much as detractors have a legitimate right to not like what they see.

I know why people like what they're seeing with Frontiers; I'm not blind to the potential appeal.

I bring it into question because what things about Frontiers that you're enjoying are unique to it? There's a few specifics you could conjure up like the key-emerald-boss progression system, Big's fishing or the mysterious story I guess, or even just the initial excitement of imagining this template over a boost-esque game.. but a lot of it is the kind of fare you see in standard brawler or open world RPG games of modern day.

Compare those things to what's unique about Sonic in general: roller coaster playground worlds, fast brief actions, a focus first on traversal and movement. A good few of these unique things that make Sonic "Sonic" are being undermined or sacrificed to do these ideas that aren't necessarily unique to Sonic. Things that aren't just specific to one era, but cover the scope of the past 30 years. Is that not a valid point of contention? And is it not valid to point out how they themselves must've noticed, and created the patchwork answer of pasting springs, dashpads and rails everywhere to make up for it? And is not valid to feel like that band-aid, as is the cyberspace stages, are lazy answers? It's certainly not invalid to me.

And you may not agree with that, but regardless if you do, I have a case.

Now that doesn't make the ideas it introduces impossible to coalesce with more Sonicy game design, by the way. And it also doesn't mean the remaining game from this is if it doesn't abide to my (or whoever in agreement's) tastes will be terrible. It seems obvious that Frontiers will be.. "fine" to play. Maybe even decent, if we're lucky. And some may straight up like it! I'm sure you will! But I don't know if scraping that barrel of acceptability makes it suddenly okay. That because it manages to break "good" we're fine. I don't have that low of a threshold.

And this leads to a thing I have a problem with on SSMB the past few years, where it keeps coming up in discussions the idea of accepting not everything's made for you and to "move on". But that seems to only come up whenever we're discussing things people have a problem with, never something simply neutral, and the conversation ends up leaving a group that is just perfectly fine with everything given to them. How else are we supposed to see that other than to lower our standards? To be told people are elitist for having even an iota of care for anything resembling a thing you like, when other people seem to not care as much about these things and get along fine and continue getting to have their conversations unscathed? What conclusion are you supposed to come to, other than feel as if greater criticism isn't allowed on these forums for some reason? I'm sorry if it brings you or whoever down, but it becomes a big wrap-around way of saying "let us have fun, if you don't like it leave" and it's not conductive to conversation.

It's exhausting. And I don't really want to keep talking about it. I shouldn't even have to go this deep into it in the first place, to be honest with you. But I'm tired of this being a thing from subject to subject, as every convo over the years jumps from talk about the games to the movies to the tv shows to what have you. People should be allowed to like and not like a thing, and should be allowed to be critical as to why, and everyone should be able to deal with each other's standings just as much as they are allowed to challenge it. It's a public forum of discussion.

Sigh.

[Starnik]

I’m impressed SEGA has tested the game every 3 to 4 months. Sounds like that would be expensive and tedious. They must really care about Sonic to go through that trouble, among other things. Sonic Team’s optimism makes sense if they’re been getting positive feedback from the play testing.