Kishimoto Hopes Sonic Frontiers Will Take Sonic Team to the Top of the Gaming Industry

[Spooky Mulder]

42 minutes ago, Starnik said:

I’m impressed SEGA has tested the game every 3 to 4 months. Sounds like that would be expensive and tedious. They must really care about Sonic to go through that trouble, among other things. Sonic Team’s optimism makes sense if they’re been getting positive feedback from the play testing. 

And also guaranteed to leak. Frontiers was one of the worst kept secrets in gaming, it was just drowned out in other fake BS until the teaser inadvertently confirmed details from the leaks. SEGA had to have known they were sacrificing secrecy to a significant degree by playtesting so much. They decided I was worth it and they were probably right. I wonder what kind of game we'd be getting if playtesting started much later.

[Celestia]

I don't fully agree with the idea that everything important to Sonic is gone or impossible to define because different games do different things. But with that in mind I understand what Azoo is getting at, because absolutely one of the first thing that comes to mind in Sonic is the level design, and there's undeniably been a shift.

If we're talking slopes in particular, there was a difference between Generations (and even Colours/LW) and Forces in at least having obligatory half pipes and stuff. (Forces did have some slopes in say, the Classic levels, but it's hard to pat them on the back for that one lmao.) I personally put this down to them losing staff rather than like an intentional change of pace or the entire team just not getting it, but again, it's a noticeable shift. And you could bring up that in something like Generations the half pipes and other ramps etc. cheat, it doesn't count, etc. etc. and I won't argue with you, that's not my point. I can just understand concern when we've gone from shallow understanding to what feels like we've somehow regressed from that.

[Dejimon11]

In other news the game won an award at the Japan Game Awards future division 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Kishimoto haters, rejoice! He's finally made it big enough to not work on Sonic anymore.

[The Deleter]

I'm not sure how big the award itself is for Sonic's history in Japan, but between that and the Frontiers booth reaching capacity on all 3 days of TGS, it seems like the game is actually making a pretty decent splash in Japan? Wonder what aspect of this game is bringing the attention that others didn't comparatively.

[Kuzu]

Sonic clearly wasn't shooting enough ki blasts and fighting eldritch creatures to gain enough attention over there.

[ZinogreVolt]

Tonally it lines up with what Japanese Sonic fans like to see out of Sonic, with the Adventure duology (especially Adventure 2) being consistently regarded as favorites from Japanese fans for its stories, casts, and gameplay variety. As for why the general public is interested, open world games are just popular in Japan, and word of mouth from TGS-goers has been positive across the board. Not every open world game does well in Japan, but the mix of speedy platforming plus open world exploration, PLUS a fairly decent combat system on top of that has got people talking. It's an interesting blend that has people curious.

[TSS Classic Comment Bot]

Posted By: Dr Milkman

Narrator describing Sonic Frontiers in 2030 Sonic Synopsis: "It didn't"

[azoo]

5 hours ago, The Deleter said:

I'm not sure how big the award itself is for Sonic's history in Japan, but between that and the Frontiers booth reaching capacity on all 3 days of TGS, it seems like the game is actually making a pretty decent splash in Japan? Wonder what aspect of this game is bringing the attention that others didn't comparatively.

It’s different enough from a standard Sonic game that people there actually like it this time.

[Wraith]

6 hours ago, The Deleter said:

I'm not sure how big the award itself is for Sonic's history in Japan, but between that and the Frontiers booth reaching capacity on all 3 days of TGS, it seems like the game is actually making a pretty decent splash in Japan? Wonder what aspect of this game is bringing the attention that others didn't comparatively.

-A lot of influence from popular. japanese action games, anime and other pop culture. I've talked about Breath of the Wild's influence on this game at length but there are a lot of other action RPGs that come to mind too. In particular the Evangelion influence is pretty overt with the angels, the more melancholy story and one of the biggest VAs voicing the new character
-The game clearly has a ton of content so there's no longer a risk of spending 60 dollars and being done with the game in 3 hours.
-The snappy action combat is probably a more appealing loop to them than any of the platformer stuff. Platformers were never as popular over there aside from like Mario/Kirby and Kirby has a huge combat component.
-Kishimoto himself said they prefer shorter gameplay loops over there and this game has you constantly running into smaller challenges you can completely quickly, rather than my vision for an open world Sonic game which would have had more drawn out sequences of exploration.
-The small Sonic fandom that DID exist over there never cared for the comedy angle of the previous decade, so moving far away from that into something more shonen/seinen influenced was necessary. They never would have pulled this off with a game with the tone of Sonic Unleashed or Sonic Lost World, much as that style fits better with Sonic's design and character.
-Music that actually appeals to them instead of appealing to us. This seems like a no brainer since american Sonic fans seem to like whatever songs get put out anyway, no matter the genre or popularity of the band.
-Launching with the Switch as the focus instead of an afterthought. The Switch is the primary way people engage with gaming over there.

They managed to do all of this without the more jarring parts of previous games that have taken this approach. They didn't change Sonic's base design any or include anyone styled after the more realistic characters from the previous games that caused controversy. Characters that are popular in Japan but have baggage here are kept out in favor of the classic quartet + fresh characters with no strings attached. You still play as Sonic and stick to his abilities the entire time. Sonic as an action hero has always been an angle fans over the globe have wanted to see expanded on. Go deep enough in my post history and you'll see me arguing down MANY requests for expanded combat focus over the years.

Classic Sonic gameplay seems to have been begrudgingly included through cyberspace so those of us who grew up with the classic games can get a taste of what we actually come to this series for. The fact that it's clearly an afterthought doesn't matter as much as it should, since the level design was sub-par in most of the previous 3D entries anyway, especially in the last decade. Critics didn't expect anything better and Sonic fandom moved on from caring so much about level design and physics a long time ago. The bar has lowered dramatically compared to the Classic games and I don't see an easy way back. I thought Mania would be a golden ticket, but this game will far outstrip it in terms of popularity so it seems like a lost cause.

I wanted more overt japanese influence in Sonic for a long time, so some of these changes are actually improvements for me. I just wish so much of Sonic's core loop hadn't been de-emphasized in the process.

[TSS Classic Comment Bot]

Posted By: SonicBoom31

I agree with more of the comments on this page, but unless they are hiding something really spiracular that we don't know.... I guess we will have to wait and see when we actually get the full game in our hands in a few months

[Zoomzeta]

Those are some lofty goals, that's all I'll say. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

36 minutes ago, azoo said:

I know why people like what they're seeing with Frontiers; I'm not blind to the potential appeal.

I bring it into question because what things about Frontiers that you're enjoying are unique to it? There's a few specifics you could conjure up like the key-emerald-boss progression system, Big's fishing or the mysterious story I guess, or even just the initial excitement of imagining this template over a boost-esque game.. but a lot of it is the kind of fare you see in standard brawler or open world RPG games of modern day.

As has been stated before though, it appears to have a Sonic spin on it. I know you're not going to agree. That's the frustrating thing. Everytime someone in favor of the game states how they feel it's unique enough, that just seems to get scoffed at by the detractors, and it just makes the whole discussion unfun and cyclical.

One states how a Sonic spin is put on it, and that's lambasted as not good enough. People give their reasoning for liking the game only to be dismissed as only being in it for Sonic.

I wonder, why can't we just agree that we have differing views on the things instead of trying to put one side as objectively wrong?

43 minutes ago, azoo said:

Compare those things to what's unique about Sonic in general: roller coaster playground worlds, fast brief actions, a focus first on traversal and movement. A good few of these unique things that make Sonic "Sonic" are being undermined or sacrificed to do these ideas that aren't necessarily unique to Sonic. Things that aren't just specific to one era, but cover the scope of the past 30 years. Is that not a valid point of contention? And is it not valid to point out how they themselves must've noticed, and created the patchwork answer of pasting springs, dashpads and rails everywhere to make up for it? And is not valid to feel like that band-aid, as is the cyberspace stages, are lazy answers? It's certainly not invalid to me.

And you may not agree with that, but regardless if you do, I have a case.

A case we're not going to see eye to eye on, but that's not my problem. I mean, my issue is just more so outright dismissing any counterpoint people bring up with the ideal that those in support of the game are only "in it for Sonic".

I have given countless bouts and statements, as have others, only for them to be dismissed in such a condescending manner.

I get that you don't care for the direction the game is headed in, and there's no problem with that. But leave the people excited for it, out of the rhetoric. It's just as bad as claiming that all the naysayers are unpleaable.

You have a case, as do those in support of the game, so I don't see the need to devolve things into just a bout of "what you like about the game is not Sonic-y" enough. That's clearly a pointless road to go down.

10 hours ago, azoo said:

To be told people are elitist for having even an iota of care for anything resembling a thing you like, when other people seem to not care as much about these things and get along fine and continue getting to have their conversations unscathed? What conclusion are you supposed to come to, other than feel as if greater criticism isn't allowed on these forums for some reason? I'm sorry if it brings you or whoever down, but it becomes a big wrap-around way of saying "let us have fun, if you don't like it leave" and it's not conductive to conversation.

You can have care for the series without feeling the need to brow-beat the positivity towards it as people just settling for mediocrity. That's where the elitist sentiments come from.

Just state your reasons for disliking the game. There's no beef to had with that, but you don't need to tear down every bout of positivity with claiming that people are only in it for Sonic. Because, a lot of folk aren't in it for just Sonic. The game's been getting much more good vibes thatn Forces did and it goes beyond just having Sonic.

A respect to both sides of the debate would go a long ways in not stifling discussion.

10 hours ago, azoo said:

It's exhausting. And I don't really want to keep talking about it. I shouldn't even have to go this deep into it in the first place, to be honest with you.

It really shouldn't have. It got to the point where you got the wrong idea that supposedly people are jumping on you for wanting slopes, when that really wasn't the case. At best, one person in the recent two pages might have mentioned a slope, but no, you weren't being yelled at for wanting slopes. The problem is that the misinformation spread when @Jake_LeOFFICIAL got the wrong idea, and then people just hopped on there.

10 hours ago, azoo said:

But I'm tired of this being a thing from subject to subject, as every convo over the years jumps from talk about the games to the movies to the tv shows to what have you. People should be allowed to like and not like a thing, and should be allowed to be critical as to why, and everyone should be able to deal with each other's standings just as much as they are allowed to challenge it.

And it goes both ways. You disagree with a person and their reasons for liking the game? That's fine. You want to debate with them? That's also fine. But it should be simple to not conflate and dismiss their liking of the game as just settling for so little when they have raised good points, or strong cases of their own.

That's all I ask. I've honestly got no beef with you disliking the game.

[VO.SUPER]

11 hours ago, azoo said:

I know why people like what they're seeing with Frontiers; I'm not blind to the potential appeal.

I bring it into question because what things about Frontiers that you're enjoying are unique to it? There's a few specifics you could conjure up like the key-emerald-boss progression system, Big's fishing or the mysterious story I guess, or even just the initial excitement of imagining this template over a boost-esque game.. but a lot of it is the kind of fare you see in standard brawler or open world RPG games of modern day.

Compare those things to what's unique about Sonic in general: roller coaster playground worlds, fast brief actions, a focus first on traversal and movement. A good few of these unique things that make Sonic "Sonic" are being undermined or sacrificed to do these ideas that aren't necessarily unique to Sonic. Things that aren't just specific to one era, but cover the scope of the past 30 years. Is that not a valid point of contention? And is it not valid to point out how they themselves must've noticed, and created the patchwork answer of pasting springs, dashpads and rails everywhere to make up for it? And is not valid to feel like that band-aid, as is the cyberspace stages, are lazy answers? It's certainly not invalid to me.

And you may not agree with that, but regardless if you do, I have a case.

I don't want to be part of the conversation putting you down for your thoughts on the game. But I'd at least like to address this point.

Oddly enough, I think combat is the thing I feel is most Sonic-like in this game. While the series never handled it great, I don't feel like it is some oddity that doesn't belong in Sonic when handled smartly. And I do feel like the combat in Frontiers is a step in the right direction for Sonic at least from the standpoint of the bosses, and how they are closer to platforming challenges than straight up combat. 

The rest of your point though I can't say I disagree with. While there's definitely traversal, I feel like the level of interactivity isn't there for an interesting form of traversal. But I think for that, Sonic needs to really drop the boost format for that along with the physics system that goes along with the boost. Though I can't say I'm a fan of going straight the Sonic Utopia route or anything, because that kind of physics system comes with its own problems. 

It's complicated. 

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Classic Sonic gameplay seems to have been begrudgingly included through cyberspace so those of us who grew up with the classic games can get a taste of what we actually come to this series for. The fact that it's clearly an afterthought doesn't matter as much as it should, since the level design was sub-par in most of the previous 3D entries anyway, especially in the last decade. Critics didn't expect anything better and Sonic fandom moved on from caring so much about level design and physics a long time ago. The bar has lowered dramatically compared to the Classic games and I don't see an easy way back. I thought Mania would be a golden ticket, but this game will far outstrip it in terms of popularity so it seems like a lost cause.
 

I wanna expand on this particular point because it's important to this discussion.

Anyone with any familiarity with Sega's history should know that thr Mega Drive, and by extension the Classic titles, have never been particularly popular over in Japan. I have spoken with the very few amount of Japanese Sonic fans and yea, it comes down to them just preferring simpler games overall. 

In fact, the two Sonic games that did in fact gain popularity over there were the Adventure titles. Nothing before or since were as popular as those games in Japan and why Shadow remains one of the most popular characters with next to none of the controversy he has in Western territories. 

Sega have always been trying to get their country of origin into Sonic since the 90's. Sonic Jam, the Saturn, all of them are attempts at catering to them. The fact that Sonic was way more popular in Western territories didn't matter at all.

All of this weird shit that was going on in the 2000's and with Frontiers are pretty transparent attempts to gain favor with Japan, with the classic Sonic stuff being there out of obligation for Western Sonic fans who prefer the gameplay from the Classic titles.

 

Going by the reception, it seems to be working. 

[Razule]

I hope that in future titles they can ease into a more conventionally styled Sonic world. 

[ZinogreVolt]

2 hours ago, Razule said:

I hope that in future titles they can ease into a more conventionally styled Sonic world. 

I think they will. Frontiers as we see it now is unquestionably the result of them receiving feedback that the open world wasn't Sonic-y enough. All of the conventional Sonic-y obstacles being inexplicably being dotted around the map suggests that a lot of it was added after the bulk of the world map was already created. Should the next game build off of Frontiers, I think it's a safe and logical assumption that the fresh world map will be built with more Sonic-y elements in mind, so things will be more naturally blended into the environment.

[Drisaac]

Regarding Kishimoto's statement, I have no reason to believe it was marketing talk, it sounded genuine enough for me to believe it, maybe I'm too naive but I always prefer to see the better in people no matter what.

However, I can't help but to make the cynical side of me rear it's ugly head out:

As some people like @Kuzu have pointed earlier in this thread, there's plenty of concerning elements regarding some of the technical decisions implemented in Sonic Frontiers, like the fact that Sonic's speed and other of his movements can be changed and modified within the options.

This doesn't inspire confidence because to me this choice feels like an indirect implication that not even the developers itself know how Sonic is meant to move in their own game, which is bad, very bad...

And the Cyberspace stages not being mandatory either is also another red flag too.

You see, to me it almost feels as if Sonic Team decided to make a lot of the areas of the game to be optional so that they don't have to take responsibility if said optional areas turn out bad, like a fail-safe for them.

All in all I don't think Sonic Frontiers is gonna be the holy grail Kishimoto hopes that it's going to be but assuming it's even remotely good it can be used to lay the groundwork for the next installment of the series, that will help to improve on what Frontiers did bad.

[Starnik]

21 minutes ago, Drisaac said:

Regarding Kishimoto's statement, I have no reason to believe it was marketing talk, it sounded genuine enough for me to believe it, maybe I'm too naive but I always prefer to see the better in people no matter what.

However, I can't help but to make the cynical side of me rear it's ugly head out:

As some people like @Kuzu have pointed earlier in this thread, there's plenty of concerning elements regarding some of the technical decisions implemented in Sonic Frontiers, like the fact that Sonic's speed and other of his movements can be changed and modified within the options.

This doesn't inspire confidence because to me this choice feels like an indirect implication that not even the developers itself know how Sonic is meant to move in their own game, which is bad, very bad...

And the Cyberspace stages not being mandatory either is also another red flag too.

You see, to me it almost feels as if Sonic Team decided to make a lot of the areas of the game to be optional so that they don't have to take responsibility if said optional areas turn out bad, like a fail-safe for them.

All in all I don't think Sonic Frontiers is gonna be the holy grail Kishimoto hopes that it's going to be but assuming it's even remotely good it can be used to lay the groundwork for the next installment of the series, that will help to improve on what Frontiers did bad.

Giving the players option to adjust setting is a bad thing? Huh. 

[Drisaac]

1 minute ago, Starnik said:

Giving the players option to adjust setting is a bad thing? Huh. 

No, that is not what I said, please do not misunderstand.

In previous entries of the series you didn't get the option to change how Sonic controls because the game was designed around the way he was already programmed, to put it simply, the devs were confident that you wouldn't have to change his movements.

To me, that does not appear to be case here, this connects back to what I said in my initial post where I said that the devs left many parts of the game optional (cyberspace stages, combat etc.) so that they won't have to take responsibility if said elements of the game are badly implemented, so that they can just shrug it off by saying "well if you don't like doing that thing you don't have to"

It's a good thing that they give us the option to change how Sonic moves, but I don't think this was done for the right reasons...

 

[Starnik]

Just now, Drisaac said:

No, that is not what I said, please do not misunderstand.

In previous entries of the series you didn't get the option to change how Sonic controls because the game was designed around the way he was already programmed, to put it simply, the devs were confident that you wouldn't have to change his movements.

To me, that does not appear to be case here, this connects back to what I said in my initial post where I said that the devs left many parts of the game optional (cyberspace stages, combat etc.) so that they won't have to take responsibility if said elements of the game are badly implemented, so that they can just shrug it off by saying "well if you don't like doing that thing you don't have to"

It's a good thing that they give us the option to change how Sonic moves, but I don't think this was done for the right reasons...

I think Forces and past Sonic games were disliked by some fans because they were too one note, binary, lacking depth. Adding movement options makes Frontiers instantly more interesting than the past games. I don’t know why you assume it’s being done to not take responsibility, other than being cynical. I assumed Sonic Team was trying to address complaints from previous games. 

[Shade Vortex]

25 minutes ago, Starnik said:

I think Forces and past Sonic games were disliked by some fans because they were too one note, binary, lacking depth. Adding movement options makes Frontiers instantly more interesting than the past games. I don’t know why you assume it’s being done to not take responsibility, other than being cynical. I assumed Sonic Team was trying to address complaints from previous games. 

It's hard to have intricate design that flows well and increases in complexity when you have to account for potentially hundreds (or even thousands, depending on how many values each slider has, and how many sliders there are) of different values for how the game controls. And to be frank, the Open Zone design does not inspire confidence in that regard, as far as I've seen. Everything is pretty basic, lacking fundamental depth to really sink your teeth into. Now, I'm not gonna get ahead of myself and claim adamantly that the whole game is gonna be like that, but... The first island is where you're gonna be for a decent chunk of the game already and its design is tutorial fodder.

My point is that having to account for all these variables undeniably restricts the kinds of design they can implement while still expecting the game to function properly, so if anything, this game is not going to resolve peoples' problems with depth or binary design by expanding the amount of adjustable control factors.

[light-gaia]

54 minutes ago, Drisaac said:

No, that is not what I said, please do not misunderstand.

In previous entries of the series you didn't get the option to change how Sonic controls because the game was designed around the way he was already programmed, to put it simply, the devs were confident that you wouldn't have to change his movements.

To me, that does not appear to be case here, this connects back to what I said in my initial post where I said that the devs left many parts of the game optional (cyberspace stages, combat etc.) so that they won't have to take responsibility if said elements of the game are badly implemented, so that they can just shrug it off by saying "well if you don't like doing that thing you don't have to"

It's a good thing that they give us the option to change how Sonic moves, but I don't think this was done for the right reasons...

A lot of games let you customize this kind of stuff, and that doesn't have anything to do with the developers "not taking responsibility". When it comes to optional content, the main inspiration of Frontiers is Zelda Breath of the Wild, the whole Zelda game is optional. You can go straight to the final boss right in the beginning of the adventure and skip the whole thing. I've never seen one single person saying that's because "the developers are not taking responsibility".

[Cosmos Rogue]

We know from Kishimoto's own words why Frontiers gives the player sliders for changing how Sonic controls.

(Apologies for two tweets showing up here, I'm not sure why it won't show just the one I'm trying to link)

Per Kishimoto himself he tried to find an ideal way for Sonic to control in Frontiers, but couldn't. 

Quote

No matter how you look at it, there were contradictory parts

I really don't see a charitable way to read this. Some parts of the game work best with Sonic-y feeling controls, some parts work best with more "general action" controls. Whatever controls the player settles on they are going to have a suboptimal experience because the player will always run into parts of the game that just don't play well with their control settings, or at least don't play as well as they could.

Also worth mentioning is that most players will likely just use whatever the default control settings are, meaning that Kishimoto and Sonic Team haven't really punted on designing a good control setup for Frontiers, they just seemingly lack confidence in their ability to do so.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Eh, if we really raised doubt by any game providing customization options, we wouldn't trust a single dev these days.

Besides, impressions from people who have played with default settings have been positive as well.