Kishimoto Hopes Sonic Frontiers Will Take Sonic Team to the Top of the Gaming Industry

[ZinogreVolt]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Because that's literally what the topic of the title says. Kishimoto said this, not me. If he is going to make a statement like that, then he is putting this game on the same pedestal as those other games and thus, comparisons are valid. 

Buzzwords.  Its an open-world game and everyone acknowledges it as such. 

And I once again ask, how? 

So its more of the same of what the series has been doing, that doesn't exactly set it apart then. The Super Sonic part is the only original part of this game so far since it hasn't been done before. 

Is Frontiers "more of the same" or is it "open-world"? Saying it's both is an oxymoronic sentiment. I feel like you're underestimating how much being open world fundamentally changes how you approach video games, especially since being a platformer on top of that gives Frontiers a reasonably unique blend.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Kuzu said:

It's going to be a drop in the bucket for the series, as opposed to the mainstream hit that they, and some fans, will expect it to be.  

You're perfectly fine to believe that. Doesn't mean that's going to be the case, but I don't see why you feel the need to insist such anyway.

It's almost like it's discouraging people having hopes for the game. And going all deep in like that seems somewhat nonsensical. 

Again, there is a lot of buzz for this game. Sure, some folk aren't going to like it, but that doesn't mean it's set to be some drop in the bucket.

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It's less apprehension, and more bewilderment that they feel like this is such a huge change for the series when its just slapping yet another gimmick in, as opposed to actually designing a proper 3D Sonic platforming game. 

Maybe it's because of again, how well things are coming together? It's not exactly rocket science to see where the hype is coming from. 

Look, not everyone's so jaded that some things can't come through as genuine. The higher ups I get not trusting, but there's nothing to really suggest that Sonic Team are lying in their Hope's of this steering the series' course, provided it turns out good still.

[The Deleter]

45 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, I appreciate the honesty but lol. The fact that this isn't setting off people's alarms is pretty telling. 

This is unrelated to the current discussion, but one thing I will always give more neutral parties, legitimate critics, or fan-described "haters" is that they pretty often have the capacity to change their minds when they see something that legitimately looks well executed to them, which is why I've always rolled my eyes at "set in their ways" being often directed at anyone overly negative in this fanbase. Yes they have a personal bias/opinion, but they also have a pretty decent capability of changing their minds when something legitimately fantastic that appeals to them is presented, which often can come from high quality alone.

"Set in their ways" implies closemindedness and the moral high ground that comes with it, but if those more negative parties are actually the ones actively taking new information as it comes and forming new and different opinions and expectations based off of that different information, at any point where the game looks decent or bad from new info, they are at least allowing their mind to be more open than not to new information.

It's not like people can't be set in their ways to begin with. They can choose to be solely positive or solely negative towards a game due to their biases or values, and ignore everything that other people value that doesn't conform; it's a personal choice and just like more personal matters, it's their business what they choose to like and dislike. But as soon as the "set in their ways" argument starts getting thrown around, with the connotations of intellectual honesty and claims of greater open-mindedness, from an angle that only ever acknowledges the positive, more often than not it seems like throwing stones from the side with the most transparent glass house.

[Kuzu]

51 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Is Frontiers "more of the same" or is it "open-world"? Saying it's both is an oxymoronic sentiment. I feel like you're underestimating how much being open world fundamentally changes how you approach video games, especially since being a platformer on top of that gives Frontiers a reasonably unique blend.

Frontiers separates its open-world and platforming elements as opposed to blending them together. There's not potential I can see when they're dedicated to segregating them as much as possible. 

[ZinogreVolt]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Frontiers separates its open-world and platforming elements as opposed to blending them together. There's not potential I can see when they're dedicated to segregating them as much as possible. 

You can't reach areas or progress through parts of the map without platforming and using Sonic's non-combative skills in the open world. What part of that implies segregation?

[TSS Classic Comment Bot]

Posted By: Greatsong1

I believe Frontiers can end up good but nowhere near good enough to Kishimoto’s dream here, not even close.

[Dejimon11]

4 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

It's not even purely an open-world game, but an open-zone format as they've clarified. 

It's different in pace and structure from the norm of open-world games.

I’m late to this but no. This is an open world game no matter how hard they try to say it’s not. It’s just like how Nintendo claimed that BOTW is an “Open Air” game and everybody knew they were full of it.

[Sonicka]

1 hour ago, Dejimon11 said:

I’m late to this but no. This is an open world game no matter how hard they try to say it’s not. It’s just like how Nintendo claimed that BOTW is an “Open Air” game and everybody knew they were full of it.

Nah, an open world game is usually demonstrated to be a (mostly) seamless or interconnected environment. 

This so far has been shown off to be segmented areas much like how games such as; Pokemon Legends, Monster Hunter, Xenoblade (or heck even Mario 64) operates. Huge environments for sure, but are they Open World? No. 

That’s why the terminology of Open Zone fits the description much better - it very similar to those examples. 

I’ll give you BOTW though. Open-Air is just Nintendo’s way of being Nintendo. (Although in fairness even that term fit the bill better than Open World for what it achieved and how different it was).

It could very well be that Sonic Team feel similarly with this games offering as it’s something new for them to explore for their particular IP. Obviously overall we’ll have to wait and see how it actually turns out - but I think it’s a great attitude they taken so far and clearly a lot of care has been put into this (even if it isn’t to everyone’s tastes).

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

I’m late to this but no. This is an open world game no matter how hard they try to say it’s not. It’s just like how Nintendo claimed that BOTW is an “Open Air” game and everybody knew they were full of it.

Given the depth that they've gone into, about how at first they tried going for an open world feel during the development, but convrrted it to open zone. 

So, no, I don't really find solid value in the sentiment that they're supposedly full of it like Nintendo were about "open air".

[Speedi]

3 hours ago, Son-icka said:

Nah, an open world game is usually demonstrated to be a (mostly) seamless or interconnected environment. 

This so far has been shown off to be segmented areas much like how games such as; Pokemon Legends, Monster Hunter, Xenoblade (or heck even Mario 64) operates. Huge environments for sure, but are they Open World? No. 

That’s why the terminology of Open Zone fits the description much better - it very similar to those examples. 

I’ll give you BOTW though. Open-Air is just Nintendo’s way of being Nintendo. (Although in fairness even that term fit the bill better than Open World for what it achieved and how different it was).

It could very well be that Sonic Team feel similarly with this games offering as it’s something new for them to explore for their particular IP. Obviously overall we’ll have to wait and see how it actually turns out - but I think it’s a great attitude they taken so far and clearly a lot of care has been put into this (even if it isn’t to everyone’s tastes).

I'd say it's less about the environments being interconnected and more about the design of the maps.

Games like Odyssey/Frontiers fit more in the "open zone" category because they create big playgrounds for the character's moveset. And games like BOTW/Xenoblade fit in the "open world" create realistically designed environments you could imagine people and animals actually living in. At least that's what I think, anyway.

[The Deleter]

3 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Given the depth that they've gone into, about how at first they tried going for an open world feel during the development, but convrrted it to open zone. 

So, no, I don't really find solid value in the sentiment that they're supposedly full of it like Nintendo were about "open air".

The details they've given is exactly why their terminology for "open zone" is just marketing fluff. He allowed the previous model of the game to be called open world, but admitted that they didn't want to get rid of the world design itself, and also described the previous progression format as "more linear" than it is now. The main changes they cite now are adding the "athletic action" with the floating rails everywhere, while making the progression through the game more open ended.

If the previous state of the game was enough to be called open world in that more limited state, this version fits the same bill; they just don't like the connotations that people judge open world games by. Adding Cyberspace stages doesn't suddenly change the context of the world design by so much that it becomes entirely dissimilar to the open world they intended to begin with; open world games have had linear dungeons for forever. Neither does adding crazy platforming, as games like Mirror's Edge Catylist were already content with open world as a descriptor.

[Wraith]

"Open air" is just talking about the game's increased emphasis on vertical play with the new climbing gliding mechanics which at the time was unique enough to be worth pointing out.


"Open Zone" is just noting their desire to segment the world into chunks which is decidedly not a unique approach, but worth distinguishing so expectations don't get out of hand. I don't see a problem with either phrase. Why are we talking about this

[Shaddy Zaphod]

What are we supposed to do? Watch someone say "this game doesn't fundamentally align with the way Sonic stages and physics should be designed" and then nokaine starts arguing with them again? If people gotta talk about something, it might as well be this.

[azoo]

People just want excuses to write off the naysayers, here.

I understand people wanting their hype to not be pissed on by unwavering cynicism, but it’s just not reasonable to write off legitimate criticisms as a matter of differing opinion or “disagreement” with Sonic Team. Else we might as well act like any other bad things Sonic Team has pulled off in the past are simply disagreements, too. 

There’s just no way to justify the “open zone” areas to be as unSonicy as they are. All their QAing with those areas I’m sure is why there’s rails and springs everywhere; an attempt to patch over a world that didn’t come off Sonicy enough to testers on the first few passes. And if they think this is a genuine solution then that just shows how boned it is. lol

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

What are we supposed to do? Watch someone say "this game doesn't fundamentally align with the way Sonic stages and physics should be designed" and then nokaine starts arguing with them again? If people gotta talk about something, it might as well be this.

We could just not talk at all and actually go do something productive. 

[Sega DogTagz]

8 minutes ago, azoo said:

 

There’s just no way to justify the “open zone” areas to be as unSonicy as they are. 

In the same breath, I could easily make the argument that the areas are "too sonicy", citing the over reliance on springs, rails and automation with being directly in line with the same trends we've seen in the franchise for the last decade+. 

 

The rails and springs are everywhere because that's how Sonic has interacted with his environment in every game. That's what they know how to work with. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

38 minutes ago, azoo said:

There’s just no way to justify the “open zone” areas to be as unSonicy as they are.

Again, it seems to come down to what certain people think is "Sonicy".

We could debate all year and there might never be an agreement between those hyped and those not. It's not as if there's some definitive that absolutely states it doesn't fit the Sonic stance.

Now, mind you, if those who aren't in for it wish to be so, that's fine, but acting like everyone's whose interested is just settling for something "un-Sonic-like", feels a bit overbearing. 

[azoo]

There’s gonna be a point when the only thing left that makes a Sonic game is Sonic being in it, and even that metric is gonna be viewed as splitting hairs.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

15 minutes ago, azoo said:

There’s gonna be a point when the only thing left that makes a Sonic game is Sonic being in it, and even that metric is gonna be viewed as splitting hairs.

Eh Heh. Well that time isn't now.

[Kuzu]

Could have fooled me. 

[Endy]

The overworld and enemy designs in this game are so non descript they could look like they're from anything. Bright colors? Distinct structures, patterns and plant life? Slopes?? The most distinct thing about the world in this game are the rails and platforms that populate the sky, something which hardly anyone is super excited about. The enemies are all samey black blobs that follow none of the language Sonic's mechanical design usually does and have nothing on the enemies from the old days aside from feeling like some loose Evangelion homage. I mean, I get this game is going for a more photorealistic look, but you can do that without sacrificing things of interest. 

[ZinogreVolt]

Frontiers' appeal isn't that far removed from preceding game, it's just applied to a much bigger playground with new elements thrown into the mix. Cyberspace further facilitates that and encourages that players get better at platforming, which in turn affects how well they're able to interact with platforming elements spread throughout the open zones.

I believe the disconnect here mostly relies on whether you feel Sonic's platforming gameplay in Unleashed/Colors/Generations/Forces isn't "Sonic-y" enough. In which case, aye, sure, Frontiers probably just come off as the series having lost the plot further. Frontiers by itself is not so dissimilar from the above games though, so much of the appeal is still there for a lot of people as well.

[StellarBlur]

There's two scenarios here:

- He's 100% right and the game scores between 80-90 and I really hope that happens because otherwise it'd be crushing for him and the team. 

- He 100% believes it but the game turns out to be more flawed than expected.

There is no scenario here where this is marketing speak. I really think they 100% believe in their game which is refreshing. I hope nobody mocks Kishimoto if it fails. Someone who actually tries that hard doesn't deserve that. I'm at the point where I want this to be good so bad because I want Sonic Team to have a win even if I end up disliking the game. The team needs it.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I'm pretty much at the point, where yes, I'll acknowledge if the game is bad, but as it is, I see no reason to doubt that they're putting genuine effort into this, and that this game seriously stands a chance at standing well on its merits of Sonic and quality.

[Cosmos Rogue]

14 minutes ago, StellarBlur said:

There's two scenarios here:

- He's 100% right and the game scores between 80-90 and I really hope that happens because otherwise it'd be crushing for him and the team. 

- He 100% believes it but the game turns out to be more flawed than expected.

There is no scenario here where this is marketing speak. I really think they 100% believe in their game which is refreshing. I hope nobody mocks Kishimoto if it fails. Someone who actually tries that hard doesn't deserve that. I'm at the point where I want this to be good so bad because I want Sonic Team to have a win even if I end up disliking the game. The team needs it.

Kishimoto was speaking at a trade show to a major media publication when he made those remarks. Of course what he said is, at least in part, marketing speak. Maybe he will be proven right and Frontiers will restore Sonic Team's good name, but only the Sonic series needs its developers to reassure the public that they're actually doing a good job.

4 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I'm pretty much at the point, where yes, I'll acknowledge if the game is bad, but as it is, I see no reason to doubt that they're putting genuine effort into this, and that this game seriously stands a chance at standing well on its merits of Sonic and quality.

At the risk of sounding like I'm contradicting my previous incredulous comments, of course Sonic Team are putting genuine effort into Frontiers. They are professionals, it is literally their job to put effort into making video games. Sonic Team also put genuine effort into Sonic Adventure 1 & 2, Heroes, Shadow 2005, Sonic 2006, Secrets Rings & Black Knight, Unleashed, Colors, Generations, Lost World, and yes, Forces. And a lot of those games just weren't very good. So what is different about Sonic Team trying their best to make a good game this time? Because we've already seen that at least some parts of Frontiers are quite literally more of the same.

Personally I think Frontiers looks like it'll fall somewhere in the below average to above average range. The game clearly isn't going to be a disaster for the franchise (unless you're picky about the direction of the games, which I admit I am), but Kishimoto's statement that they're trying to make the best game that they can is neither reassuring nor meaningful in any way.