Sonic Frontiers Leaks & Spoilers Thread - PLEASE READ OP

[NoKaine]

I like to use SonicJGB's videos as a measuring point for how long a level is, since they're a competent player and not running for a new record.

Modern Green Hill was 1:42 and Modern Sky Sanctuary was 1:53. Lost Valley is 1:04...

So 1:45 is a decent length and if a worse player takes twice as long, yeah, it's a good time.

EDIT: TBH, that one section looks as intricate as Generations' Sky Sanctuary's platforming too (3D platforming anyway, which it doesn't have a lot of).

[Jango]

24 minutes ago, PSI Wind said:

I don't know if this is a hot take, but I always thought Lost World Sonic was one of the best controlling he's been in years and it just needed to be adjusted and some other things changed.

Running around is miles better and more precise/sharp than Gens for sure, maybe even more than Sonic Adventure. But everything else, even JUMPING is garbage. 

[light-gaia]

I hope the Cyberspace levels are 100% 3D. Not a single 2D section

[ZinogreVolt]

Assuming Sky Sanctuary is just the second stage, nearly 2 minutes of playtime for what is presumably their first run through it is a decent length. Sunset Heights was roughly a minute and a half long for casual players at E3 2017, and that was the halfway point of Forces.

[NoKaine]

Just now, light-gaia said:

I hope the Cyberspace levels are 100% 3D. Not a single 2D section

Sonic Team: You can have a little 2D. As a treat.

Just now, ZinogreVolt said:

Assuming Sky Sanctuary is just the second stage, nearly 2 minutes of playtime for what is presumably their first run through it is a decent length. Sunset Heights was roughly a minute and a half long for casual players at E3 2017, and that was the halfway point of Forces.

Lost Valley was included in a demo that kicks you out after exactly one minute and people still managed to beat the level lmao. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

33 minutes ago, PSI Wind said:

I don't know if this is a hot take, but I always thought Lost World Sonic was one of the best controlling he's been in years and it just needed to be adjusted and some other things changed.

You're far from alone in that sentiment.

Honestly, Lost World did have a very good sense of control. And the parkour system was a nice implementation used for speed and momentum. Part of why I'm glad to see it come back in some shape or form for Frontiers.

[PickleBrows]

The level length I feel is less of an issue here than previous boost games.

Forces had horrifically short levels which was a massive issue when they were THE content of the game.

By comparison, the linear levels are secondary to the open zone islands so there's less riding on them than previously. If we average out to lengths comparable to Generations, especially if there's a significant amount of 3D gameplay in them, then I think we're doing pretty well. 

[Sega DogTagz]

16 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Assuming Sky Sanctuary is just the second stage, nearly 2 minutes of playtime for what is presumably their first run through it is a decent length. Sunset Heights was roughly a minute and a half long for casual players at E3 2017, and that was the halfway point of Forces.

Just being that guy but...

considering was all assumed Sunset Heights was an early stage in the game because of how simple/easy it looked - only to be gobsmacked upon release.

 

There is no way we can confidently say SS is the second level in Frontiers. Making comparisons like that is a huge risk. For all we know it too could be a halfway point they are showing off because it looks pretty.

[NoKaine]

6 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Just being that guy but...

considering was all assumed Sunset Heights was an early stage in the game because of how simple/easy it looked - only to be gobsmacked upon release.

There is no way we can confidently say SS is the second level in Frontiers. Making comparisons like that is a huge risk. For all we know it too could be a halfway point they are showing off because it looks pretty.

The demo at SGF seems to be literally just the first hour of the game. There's story cutscenes that look like the beginning of the game, the game's progression system starts in the beginning, there's tutorials, etc. 

Meanwhile, Sunset Heights was just in a demo without context. Didn't even have the dialogue, if I recall correctly. And it's not just its design that made people think it was first, but because the promotional material emphasized the city destroyed by giant Death Egg Robots. 

I think if SEGA wanted people to not progress a certain point, they would make a timed demo instead of telling you to fuck off or making you sign up for a time slot lol.

But yeah, no, this is 99% likely to be the beginning of the game, and I doubt Sonic Team made a demo that put a late stage game in the first world.

Though you have a point about the level order: since this game is "freeform" and open, it could be that Sky Sanctuary is, like, the seventh level in the first island, and you can play any of these levels (except the first, probably) in any order.

[The Deleter]

6 hours ago, NoKaine said:

You can't say "people didn't tolerate Mania just because the level layouts were unique and had a gimmick" and then explain that people tolerated Mania because the level layouts were unique and had a gimmick lol.

For the record, for every genuinely inspired remixed level like Chemical Plant and Oil Ocean, there's levels like Lava Reef which I'm pretty sure is just Lava Reef with no noticeable gimmicks or additions whatsoever. Even the music is pretty much the same.

The point was never to say that Mania's stages were not unique, the point was they have something more that made that uniqueness more significant and meaningful to the audience they were designed for, than attempting to justify themselves as just different with the same aesthetic. A definitive, fully fleshed out past zone + doubled-up expansion and twist matters to people hoping for a definitive classic game after so long. And Frontiers will have to contend with however significant it's own uniqueness ends up being to it's own demographic, since we already have Generations stages that go above and beyond to make as definitive a modernization out of those stages as possible. In the same way Forces' Green Hill Zone falls flat on it's face, the same can and probably will happen to Frontiers' stages, given what they're going up against as the series' highest point in recent years.

[Zoomzeta]

2 hours ago, Salamander said:

The cyberspace stages have to be the worst-kept secret in gaming right now.  Takes me back to the old days of SEGA leaking like a sieve.  Perhaps they're slated for reveal in a trailer at the inevitable Nintendo Direct?

Possible, assuming the trailer lines up with the air date of the direct. 

[light-gaia]

23 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

You're far from alone in that sentiment.

Honestly, Lost World did have a very good sense of control. And the parkour system was a nice implementation used for speed and momentum. Part of why I'm glad to see it come back in some shape or form for Frontiers.

I enjoyed Lost World more than Sonic Generations. I know that's not a popular opinion. And I don't think Generations is a bad game by any means, but when I played, I beat the game in about an hour and didn't feel compelled to play more.

When it comes to Lost World, it was a more fulfilling experience to me and I kept playing.

The storytelling is bad and the level theming is traditional and uninspired, but it feels good to control, the art style is pretty, and the music is catchy. I had a better time with Lost World than with Forces and Generations. Probably, it's the best meta-era game.
 

[NoKaine]

8 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

The point was never to say that Mania's stages were not unique, the point was they have something more that made that uniqueness more significant and meaningful to the audience they were designed for, than attempting to justify themselves as just different with the same aesthetic. A definitive, fully fleshed out past zone + doubled-up expansion and twist matters to people hoping for a definitive classic game after so long. And Frontiers will have to contend with however significant it's own uniqueness ends up being to it's own demographic, since we already have Generations stages that go above and beyond to make as definitive a modernization out of those stages as possible. In the same way Forces' Green Hill Zone falls flat on it's face, the same can and probably will happen to Frontiers' stages, given what they're going up against as the series' highest point in recent years.

I think in this case, it's up to the rest of Frontiers to pull that weight, assuming that these levels genuinely do not have any additional twists, gimmicks, or designs that make them stand out.

For both Mania and Generations, the idea of going through those levels in a new format is itself the point of those levels, because there isn't anything else binding it--there's no plot or narrative or overarching mechanic that would tie them together or give them an identity.

Frontiers has this opportunity because it presumably has an actual narrative reason for Sonic to go through these specific old and reused levels that may shake them up even if the levels themselves don't do something new (which we should hope they do anyway).

Forces also had this opportunity, with the "Eggman takes over the world plot", but also failed. I think in that game's case, even giving "Sand Green Hill" something unique wouldn't save it if it still has that feeling of Sonic just going through the levels. Like, the Avatar levels themselves gave something unique to those levels the same way being 3D made all the classic levels in Generations more interesting, but it failed to make use of its premise to add something (also the levels were bad lol).

[ZinogreVolt]

18 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Just being that guy but...

considering was all assumed Sunset Heights was an early stage in the game because of how simple/easy it looked - only to be gobsmacked upon release.

There is no way we can confidently say SS is the second level in Frontiers. Making comparisons like that is a huge risk. For all we know it too could be a halfway point they are showing off because it looks pretty.

It's just an assumption since I doubt they would flip around levels for a single demo, especially when said demo is already said to just be of Frontiers' earlygame. Even still, the level length would be better off than just about every Modern Sonic stage in Forces.

[McGroose]

1 hour ago, NoKaine said:

Sonic Team: You can have a little 2D. As a treat.

One of my favorite platformers ever made, Mario Galaxy, is almost entirely 3D with just a few bits of 2.5D sprinkled in here and there. It's fine.

I am ok if there is just a LITTLE bit of 2D in some parts of the game. The Islands all look to be completely 3D and I could have sworn one of the players said what they played was mostly 3D with just a few seconds of 2D in the cyberspace levels. (IIRC, don't quote me on that).

I'm OK if there's a collective total of 1 hour of 2.5D out of the 20-30 hours it would take to beat the game (assuming that number isn't bogus)

The problem is that the boost games didn't have enough fun extra stuff to compensate for their 2D bits. The Werehog, although I enjoyed it well enough, isn't as fun as the boost sections. Colors is half 2D and the 3D is beyond basic. Generations is at least 3/5 2D, Lost World is maybe 1/3 2D, Forces is probably half 2D gameplay.

Having a smidgen of 2D gameplay is OK, just please make the rest of the game consistently good. 

[light-gaia]

5 minutes ago, McGroose said:

One of my favorite platformers ever made, Mario Galaxy, is almost entirely 3D with just a few bits of 2.5D sprinkled in here and there. It's fine.

I am ok if there is just a LITTLE bit of 2D in some parts of the game. The Islands all look to be completely 3D and I could have sworn one of the players said what they played was mostly 3D with just a few seconds of 2D in the cyberspace levels. (IIRC, don't quote me on that).

I'm OK if there's a collective total of 1 hour of 2.5D out of the 20-30 hours it would take to beat the game (assuming that number isn't bogus)

The problem is that the boost games didn't have enough fun extra stuff to compensate for their 2D bits. The Werehog, although I enjoyed it well enough, isn't as fun as the boost sections. Colors is half 2D and the 3D is beyond basic. Generations is at least 3/5 2D, Lost World is maybe 1/3 2D, Forces is probably half 2D gameplay.

Having a smidgen of 2D gameplay is OK, just please make the rest of the game consistently good. 

In my opinion, the 2D sections were never needed. Before the boost games, we used to have entirely 3D games

[Sega DogTagz]

The 2D/3D thing was novel when if first popped up in Unleashed. A breath of fresh air even.

The problem came with using it as a crutch. Almost all the intricate platforming gameplay was shoehorned into the 2D sections because that was safer and easier to develop. What should have been 3D focused games instead offered hollow 3D experiences wrapped around a 2D package. Even games that managed that balance better still had too much 2D. Generations was already half 2D with classic Sonic, and then I had devote another slice of the pie via moderns 2D segments? no thanks.

 

If I wanted a 2D experience, I'd play Mania. I don't need that to bleed back over and take away my 3D content too.

 

[Wraith]

There's not a lot of mechanical difference between actual 2D and the hallways games like Unleashed and Generations provide. Like you're still limited to one track and reacting to obstacles on that track as they come to you. You're not given a wide variety of angles to approach challenges the way you do in SA1.

Once that clicks the 2D vs 3D debate starts to ring a little hollow. I actually prefer 2D platformers over 3D ones on the whole because it allows developers to create more tightly knit challenges with fewer options for cheese, so a 3D Sonic game that was hyper linear or even largely 2D isn't such a bad thing to me.

Sonic team just...suck at making interesting 2D sections. Or 3D ones, for that matter. Call me a hater.

[NoKaine]

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

There's not a lot of mechanical difference between actual 2D and the hallways games like Unleashed and Generations provide. Like you're still limited to one track and reacting to obstacles on that track as they come to you. You're not given a wide variety of angles to approach challenges the way you do in SA1.

Once that clicks the 2D vs 3D debate starts to ring a little hollow. I actually prefer 2D platformers over 3D ones on the whole because it allows developers to create more tightly knit challenges with fewer options for cheese, so a 3D Sonic game that was hyper linear or even largely 2D isn't such a bad thing to me.

Sonic team just...suck at making interesting 2D sections. Or 3D ones, for that matter. Call me a hater.

Being in 3D inherently grants you more freedom and options, especially in regards to speed, whether it's on "track."  Nevermind the ability to better see where you're going at all. EDIT: Also the idea that there is no mechanical difference between 2D and 3D in boost games is silly since 2D literally does not allow you to use the Quick Step and most importantly the Drift. The Quick Step is pretty binary, but the Drift is one of the biggest reasons that Unleashed, Colors, and Generations are much more fun to play and have more interesting level design than Forces.

I remember that one section in Modern City Escape where it's in a big 3D park and you can run on the roofs and make it to the higher or lower parts of the stage more than its 2D sections by a mile.

Modern Seaside Hill is a perfect example of this and the antithesis of what you're talking about. Both the 3D (which there is a lot of compared to other stages) and the 2D both having a lot of complexity, depth, and secrets that are very clearly distinct from each other. It also has a nice level-exclusive gimmick in the kart racing. Modern Seaside Hill is every reason that 3D + boost gameplay can work extremely well.

Even Forces had a moment of inspiration in Mortar Canyon, which is the game's ONLY 100% 3D level and has the unique concept of basically like a downhill level but with many platforms and paths. Of course it ends far too quickly but imagine if that was a fully fleshed out level.

[StaticMania]

11 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Being in 3D inherently grants you more freedom and options...

It does, within the limits that come with the Boost Formula...

Seaside Hill is like what you'd want the standard to be, but it's more of an exception even compared to City Escape.

[Celestia]

RE level length: most Generations levels are just under two minutes when you simply run through them as quickly as possible, and I want to say that's about the average for most Sonic games too, so if the levels can take about that long that's perfectly acceptable I think. Of course we also have to consider maybe that player just sucked at the game!

Personally I'm not as worried about the levels compared to other aspects of the game for now, even if they're fairly straightforward they could still be fun. Colours is admittedly not far off from Forces in terms of not having a ton of engaging stuff but I still have fun running through it because there's at least wrinkles you have to deal with, and I don't think it's unlikely they'll at least do that much.

It's worth noting Forces being the most literal boost to win yet was an active design decision, not only based on the once-infamous (I'm surprised it doesn't come up more) quote from Shun Nakamura about wanting you to just "dash like a maniac" through the levels but because there are unused layouts in the game that have at least a bit more going on, suggesting they dumbed things down even more after a certain point.

Not to say there aren't criticisms to be made of level design in modern Sonic of course, if you already hated that shit or got tired of it then that's fair. I don't realistically expect us to get anything as good as (let alone better than) Generations and that's kinda sad over ten years later. This is just my perspective as someone who still likes most of them.

[NoKaine]

8 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

It does, within the limits that come with the Boost Formula...

Seaside Hill is like what you'd want the standard to be, but it's more of an exception even compared to City Escape.

The limits of the boost formula are based around its controls being designed around the idea of getting Sonic to be able to boost as much as possible (Colors and Forces actively removed options for Sonic or relegated them to very specific sections of a level)...

...and a reliance on 2D, which is why I and many others are aching for boost games with more 3D.

Both of these are hurdles that Frontiers could avoid. Like I said, even Forces had a level that did something with being 3D and being boost if it wasn't Forces, which especially doubled down on "boosting as much as possible." The differences between the beta and final Mortar Canyon is ironically a good example.

[Zoomzeta]

5 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

The limits of the boost formula are based around its controls being designed around the idea of getting Sonic to be able to boost as much as possible (Colors and Forces actively removed options for Sonic or relegated them to very specific sections of a level)...

...and a reliance on 2D, which is why I and many others are aching for boost games with more 3D.

Both of these are hurdles that Frontiers could avoid. Like I said, even Forces had a level that did something with being 3D and being boost if it wasn't Forces, which especially doubled down on "boosting as much as possible." The differences between the beta and final Mortar Canyon is ironically a good example.

...k

[Wraith]

31 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Being in 3D inherently grants you more freedom and options, especially in regards to speed, whether it's on "track."  Nevermind the ability to better see where you're going at all. EDIT: Also the idea that there is no mechanical difference between 2D and 3D in boost games is silly since 2D literally does not allow you to use the Quick Step and most importantly the Drift. The Quick Step is pretty binary, but the Drift is one of the biggest reasons that Unleashed, Colors, and Generations are much more fun to play and have more interesting level design than Forces.

Neither of these mechanics shake things up enough for me to get excited about 3D. Quickstep as it's used in the games is a few steps removed from a mid level minigame. The drift is a better idea on paper but even in the better boost games there were only so many places to even apply it. It's not an action you can use freely in a variety of scenarios. It's a mechanic built for certain sections and once you think to use it there youi've basically solved that chunk of level. Then it's back to hallways and 2D sections.

 

31 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

I remember that one section in Modern City Escape where it's in a big 3D park and you can run on the roofs and make it to the higher or lower parts of the stage more than its 2D sections by a mile.

Modern Seaside Hill is a perfect example of this and the antithesis of what you're talking about. Both the 3D (which there is a lot of compared to other stages) and the 2D both having a lot of complexity, depth, and secrets that are very clearly distinct from each other. It also has a nice level-exclusive gimmick in the kart racing. Modern Seaside Hill is every reason that 3D + boost gameplay can work extremely well.

Even Forces had a moment of inspiration in Mortar Canyon, which is the game's ONLY 100% 3D level and has the unique concept of basically like a downhill level but with many platforms and paths. Of course it ends far too quickly but imagine if that was a fully fleshed out level.

These sections were the exception rather than the norm. In the Classic series and Sonic Adventure this kind of multi-tiered design is present in most stages. Maybe I'd feel better about the boost if they were the norm, but they never have been.

[NoKaine]

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Neither of these mechanics shake things up enough for me to get excited about 3D. Quickstep as it's used in the games is a few steps removed from a mid level minigame. The drift is a better idea on paper but even in the better boost games there were only so many places to even apply it. Kinda telling that Sonic Adventure doesn't have either of them and I don't particularly miss them.

These sections were the exception rather than the norm. In the Classic series and Sonic Adventure this kind of multi-tiered design is present in most stages. Maybe I'd feel better about the boost if they were the norm, but they never have been.

Drift does a significant amount of work in shaking up gameplay, again, they're a big, huge missing part in Forces, and Colors relegating it to "drift sections" also makes it feel empty. Drifting is a naturally fun feeling move and even has a skill ceiling. Makes a level more involved if you just simply have a section that can only be accessed by drifting. It also rewards you with more boost energy, which you can use in tandem for even more speed. And all of this requires that you be good enough 

I know this place has a hard-on for Adventure but I'm trying to figure out what "Kinda telling that Sonic Adventure doesn't have either of them" is supposed to mean. As if Sonic Team went "should we add a mechanic where Sonic can side step extremely quickly while running forward as well as a drifting mechanic to make tight turns? Nahhhhh, we're making Sonic Adventure, which only requires the best and brightest 3D mechanics that make Sonic unique. Now let's add a move that requires you to stand perfectly still while holding the B button so Sonic can run up very specific lines of rings we place in the level! THAT'S an excellent mechanic, unlike those!"

No level in Adventure felt like Modern Seaside Hill (which makes sense because they're entirely different games). I'm not praising the simple idea of multiple paths, I'm praising the level's ability to use the boost gameplay to its pinnacle, including even its 2D sections.