Sonic Frontiers Leaks & Spoilers Thread - PLEASE READ OP

[StaticMania]

12 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Lost World had the OPPOSITE problem and had too many new themes--for some reason, the second level in the desert world was a food world?

This isn't a problem and is what should be strived for normally.

Why was the 2nd level in the Desert World a...Dessert level is essentially what you're asking.

The pun is obvious.

[Jango]

1 hour ago, NoKaine said:

The level is definitely Sky Sanctuary, even with the Death Egg in the background. The "go through old levels to jog Sonic's memory" theory is pretty much confirmed. 

My only real problem is that it's the same old levels that have already been remade. I wouldn't mind old levels if they were like, Lava Reef or something.

If that's their idea, well. Generations had 9 levels. We're thinking Frontiers have at least 28 cyberspace levels. I doubt ST will recreate more 19 levels from the ground-up, so I guess be prepared to play Green Hill in at least 3 variations lol

[NoKaine]

10 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

Not the best example given Forces had like, 5 level themes reused into 30 stages.

You go to Green Hill about five times in that game, the fact they don't recycle some of the levels HARDER isn't really a good argument.

Seven level themes: Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Death Egg, City, Mystic Jungle, Metropolis, and Eggman Empire Fortress.

These levels themselves were already small levels cut into even smaller levels and they still didn't feel the need to bloat the stage length with copies, nor allow every character to run through those levels. Hell, some of them aren't even stages at all, just boss arenas. 

If Frontiers follows the speculated format of 7 levels per island, and the levels are the same length as Generations / Unleashed, I doubt there will be heavy reuse.

If you're afraid that there will be no original levels or no levels that aren't from Generations because they'll just make like, five Sky Sanctuary levels, there really is no precedent for that. Generations was 100% designed specifically around that idea, so that makes sense that there's only old levels. Lost World had original ("original") levels. Even Mania and Forces had some original levels.

Personally, the bigger issue to worry about is if these are legitimately levels designed like Generations, i.e. the standard length and design for Generations. IGN said they were "bite-sized" but it might just be in comparison to the much larger open world, and every leak, rumor, and even impression allude to the levels being like Generations and not just in theme.

[Ratcicle King]

11 minutes ago, Razule said:

 Honestly, why would they recreate new old stages? They already made all the memorable ones. Reusing assets saves time and money that could be better spent on more important things. Why would anyone want new Sonic stages when they perfected them 11 years ago?

Because then what is there to look forward to? If I want to play the Generations stages I'll go play the Generations stages. The novelty of ''It's this old levels but in modern style'' already wore off, if they can't provide anything better than the same thing from 10 years ago, then something is wrong.

And you can't honestly believe that out of all the mainline games up to 2011, there were only 9 ''memorable ones''.

[NoKaine]

6 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

Because then what is there to look forward to? If I want to play the Generations stages I'll go play the Generations stages.

You can ask the same about Mania, which plays much more similarly to the classics than Frontiers does to Generations, but I think you'll find people who disagree. 

[Jango]

22 minutes ago, Razule said:

Honestly, why would they recreate new old stages? They already made all the memorable ones. Reusing assets saves time and money that could be better spent on more important things. Why would anyone want new Sonic stages when they perfected them 11 years ago?

Yeah, why would anyone want to play Emerald Hill or Angel Island when they already perfected them with Green Hill?

If half of this game is Generations, they might as well sell it half price then lol

[Ratcicle King]

14 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

You can ask the same about Mania, which plays much more similarly to the classics than Frontiers does to Generations, but I think you'll find people who disagree. 

Again, not the best example given people to this day complain about the team not being able to make all original zones and giving Mania the benefit of the doubt because beyond Green Hill and Chemical Plant (and arguably Stardust Speedway), all other recycled stages were never brought back again, and they did their darnest to make the zones as original and unique as the assets would allow.

 

If Frontiers does that? Great, I'll gladly give them kudos for that and I'm still positive about this game, I understand WHY they need to reuse the assets. I'm just asking that they do something interesting with it and at least give us some variety beyond the same stages from a 10 year old game, hell you don't NEED to make new assets for it, use the assets from the Shadow fight and remake Final Rush, take Unleashed assets to recreate a different level from that game, use Eggmanland assets to make Twinkle Park, take Jungle Joyride assets to make Angel Island, at least try to use these assets for something new, like Generations did with Unleashed and Colors assets. 

[Iko]

18 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

You can ask the same about Mania, which plays much more similarly to the classics than Frontiers does to Generations, but I think you'll find people who disagree. 

I believe that the biggest critic people made on Sonic Mania was that there were too many reused stages and people wanted more original zones like Studiopolis. And BTW most old zones in Mania are tolerated due to the twist they get in Act 2 which make them a bit different than the original.

Here it doesn't even seem to have a "twist", (aside of the rail twiting around the screen lol), it just seems like the same stuff, no new gimmicks nor revamped visuals etc. A good amount of those small videos also show either a rail or an empty corridor. It looks like Forces Speed Battle, It doesn't look promising at all.

[NoKaine]

People complain about reused zones, yes, but no one ever asked "what's the point of playing Mania when you can just play the classics." When Mania was announced, we only saw Green Hill and Studiopolis; again, no one asked that question.

Yes, the idea was played out less when Mania was announced. No, that mindset still doesn't really make sense.

22 minutes ago, Iko said:

Here it doesn't even seem to have a "twist", (aside of the rail twiting around the screen lol), it just seems like the same stuff, no new gimmicks nor revamped visuals etc. A good amount of those small videos also show either a rail or an empty corridor. It looks like Forces Speed Battle, It doesn't look promising at all.

From these three super-blurry ~2 second clips of random parts of the stage, where people could barely tell its Sky Sanctuary at all, and even then (and in fact, because) it's obvious that the level design is nothing like it...

...it's OBVIOUS that there is literally nothing else more to the game whatsoever. It is literally an automatic runner! 

Holy shit, I can't believe Unleashed is literally Sonic Forces Speed Battle (or I guess Sonic Forces Speed Battle is now Unleashed).

I personally cannot understand the logic about how Mania was "tolerable" because the second acts did something unique (implying that the first acts are literally just the original levels... and to be clear, I DO think Mania does enough with old levels to make it worth it), but a collective hard-to-discern six seconds of one level of Frontiers makes it clear that they are literally the same levels and there's nothing to them and that they're literally auto-runners.

Edited June 17, 2022 by NoKaine

[Razule]

29 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

Because then what is there to look forward to? If I want to play the Generations stages I'll go play the Generations stages. The novelty of ''It's this old levels but in modern style'' already wore off, if they can't provide anything better than the same thing from 10 years ago, then something is wrong.

And you can't honestly believe that out of all the mainline games up to 2011, there were only 9 ''memorable ones''.

Must be the case if this is what they're doing for the 31st anniversary.

19 minutes ago, Jango said:

Yeah, why would anyone want to play Emerald Hill or Angel Island when they already perfected them with Green Hill?

If half of this game is Generations, they might as well sell it half price then lol

Exactly, man. If Mario can use World 1-1, Sonic can use Green Hill every game.

What we need to keep in mind is, making video games is hard and it's important to do everything possible to make it easier. This is the most efficient way to handle the constraints of their budget. 

[The Deleter]

Mania zones were "tolerable" not because they have a new level layout like a boost stage would require from the start. Not only is that easy to do but it's expected; people will be upset with reusing the same background regardless. People enjoyed the redone zones in Mania because they were the definitive versions of their zones, stringing the entirety of their act 1's, 2's, and 3's into one single, giant level with new routes added to them inbetween, and then on top of that mixed it up further with a completely new gimmick by the second zone. If they were as nonsubstantial as a typical boost hallway level, I guarantee there would be a lot more people refusing to consider the past zones in Mania as adequate.

[Sonikko]

8 minutes ago, Razule said:

Exactly, man. If Mario can use World 1-1, Sonic can use Green Hill every game.

What we need to keep in mind is, making video games is hard and it's important to do everything possible to make it easier. This is the most efficient way to handle the constraints of their budget. 

Making video games is hard, but there's so many ways of reusing assets while making a distinct new location.

Zelda Majora's Mask is a great example of building an entire new world out of rehashed assets. The same can be said with the Speed Highway -> Radical Highway -> Westopolis assets, each location looks distinct while reusing a big chunk of textures.

Even just making it a different time of day would go a long way to make things feel fresh :/.

Mario "reuses" level tropes in low budget games, like the NSMB series, which is very commonly bashed because of it and its general lack of innovation. The big 3D games are always pretty distinct one from the other, with the exception of Galaxy 2 which was a direct sequel.

 

Callbacks are fun and all, but when we haven't had more than 10 new level tropes in 13 years then things start to get boring.

Since Generations we've had:

Desert Ruins, Frozen Factory, Silent Forest, the lava stage and Tropical Coast from LW

City, Metropolis, Luminous Forest and Iron Fortress from Forces. That's it.

[Nuggets]

I gotta remind myself that this is also an anniversary game, just a late one, in the same way that Forces was, so seeing reused levels makes sense and isn’t necessarily the worst - and if what we’ve seen is to be believed, than just on this first island we’re getting both Green Hill and Sky Sanctuary, which I hope means good things for stage variety throughout the game, even though Sonic Team is known to get lazy w/ that from time to time. Sky Sanctuary has only been back once so I’m not too mad, but I personally don’t ever want to see something like Chemical Plant again, bc they’ve run that shit into the ground - for the love of god pick another stage lmao 

A part of me is hoping for something new and left field like Red Mountain or Egg Fleet or even something like Kingdom Valley, but who knows - if this is just straight up a complete rip of Gens and Forces stages that’s gonna be massively disappointing. Also, since this game shares a lot of Forces DNA, it’ll be interesting to see if these linear stages are designed in the same way (read: straight line automation city shit; some real boost to win bs)

june 29th is gonna be a very interesting day 

[Ratcicle King]

4 minutes ago, Razule said:

Exactly, man. If Mario can use World 1-1, Sonic can use Green Hill every game.

What we need to keep in mind is, making video games is hard and it's important to do everything possible to make it easier. This is the most efficient way to handle the constraints of their budget. 

Mario hasn't even used world 1-1 in the main games since like, I think ever? Unless you're talking about the NSMB series, which people didn't like because of how creatively bankrupt it was, so 1-1 wasn't even given a free pass in this case.

 

And yeah, making videogames is hard, but I'm already asking the bare minimum here, again I understand that they already spent most of their effort in the open zone, they're already putting more effort in here than anything in Forces, but I'm hoping for them to reuse the assets cleverly,  not recycle entire chunks of level geometry as a way to save time, because at that point, they might as well just scrap cyberspace and focus all development on just making the open zone.

[Iko]

@NoKaine I don't want to start a dispute on this, I just don't care.

Anyway, I'm one of the few people who didn't really enjoy Mania that much, and part of the reason was the lack of originality and will to innovate the series. People disagree with me, but still to me it makes no difference, they are reused zones in both cases. I know that other people usually praise how Mania reused the zones but twisted them to make them feel new, like Chemical Plant Act 2 which introduces the gimmick of mixing different liquids to change their properties. If Mania only had 1:1 recreations of the original zones, I believe that some more people would have complained about it.

Same for Unleashed, you said that as if Unleashed didn't have a problem of being too much linear and automated.

The problem with Frontiers' linear levels is that we saw a few shots from random moments, and all of them show a very linear rail section or an empty hallway (not even a badnik so far), the only exception is a bunch of blocky platforms in the Green Hill shot... and all those corridors have the same width all the time: either they are all from the same section (unlikely) or the average level design of those stages is like that. It's not a confirmation yet, but there's a big chance that those levels will be extremely samey, linear and uninteresting.

[StaticMania]

12 minutes ago, Razule said:

Exactly, man. If Mario can use World 1-1, Sonic can use Green Hill every game.

You're talking about the music, right?

[Nuggets]

4 minutes ago, Iko said:

@NoKaine

Same for Unleashed, you said that as if Unleashed didn't have a problem of being too much linear and automated.

The problem with Frontiers' linear levels is that we saw a few shots from random moments, and all of them show a very linear rail section or an empty hallway (not even a badnik so far), the only exception is a bunch of blocky platforms in the Green Hill shot... and all those corridors have the same width all the time: either they are all from the same section (unlikely) or the average level design of those stages is like that. It's not a confirmation yet, but there's a big chance that those levels will be extremely samey, linear and uninteresting.

I mean to be fair we’ve seen maybe 6 very blurry seconds of any of these stages in total 

but if you thought unleashed was linear and automated (what’s probably been the least or second least automated and linear game in the series since 08) then I fear these aren’t going to live up to your standards regardless bc while I’m somewhat optimistic I seriously doubt these are going to be unleashed level stages 

[NoKaine]

26 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Mania zones were "tolerable" not because they have a new level layout like a boost stage would require from the start. Not only is that easy to do but it's expected; people will be upset with reusing the same background regardless. People enjoyed the redone zones in Mania because they were the definitive versions of their zones, stringing the entirety of their act 1's, 2's, and 3's into one single, giant level with new routes added to them inbetween, and then on top of that mixed it up further with a completely new gimmick by the second zone. If they were as nonsubstantial as a typical boost hallway level, I guarantee there would be a lot more people refusing to consider the past zones in Mania as adequate.

You can't say "people didn't tolerate Mania just because the level layouts were unique and had a gimmick" and then explain that people tolerated Mania because the level layouts were unique and had a gimmick lol.

For the record, for every genuinely inspired remixed level like Chemical Plant and Oil Ocean, there's levels like Lava Reef which I'm pretty sure is just Lava Reef with no noticeable gimmicks or additions whatsoever. Even the music is pretty much the same.

20 minutes ago, Iko said:

Same for Unleashed, you said that as if Unleashed didn't have a problem of being too much linear and automated.

The problem with Frontiers' linear levels is that we saw a few shots from random moments, and all of them show a very linear rail section or an empty hallway (not even a badnik so far), the only exception is a bunch of blocky platforms in the Green Hill shot... and all those corridors have the same width all the time: either they are all from the same section (unlikely) or the average level design of those stages is like that. It's not a confirmation yet, but there's a big chance that those levels will be extremely samey, linear and uninteresting.

No one is talking about how Unleashed isn't linear or doesn't have automation, but you'd be laughed at if you compared it to Sonic Forces Speed Battle, a literal automatic runner, because literally seconds of random parts of the level. 

Is Unleashed Sonic Forces Speed Battle or not? Do you actually think there is literally no difference between the two games?

Why even be assed to specify the latter game if you think all boost games are equally linear and automated?

Wow, a linear hallway with not even a Badnik in sight. Wow, I guess all of Generations is just this one screenshot.

Even your claim that the corridors "have the same width" is untrue even from that blurry nonsense: the Sky Sanctuary corridor is wider, sloped, and has a ramp, compared to the Green Hill stage.

Wow, a linear corridor (with dash panels!) and no enemies in sight. Pretty much Sonic Forces.

Edited June 17, 2022 by NoKaine

[Iko]

4 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Is Unleashed Sonic Forces Speed Battle or not? Do you actually think there is literally no difference between the two games?

It's obviously NOT the same game, but there are some parts of it, mostly the rail switching and quickstep sections, which look exactly like an automatic runner game such as Sonic Dash or Speed Battle (and ironically, usually Sonic auto-runs in those parts). So far, all the videos of Frontiers' linear levels that leaked look similar to those sections, except the Green Hill one which anyway has blocky platforms, and Sonic is being launched by a spring in that video (the player is not in control of Sonic).

also "It looks like Forces Speed Battle, It doesn't look promising at all." is different than "it's literally Sonic Forces Speed Battle".

So far, from what was shown by leaks, it looks similar enough, it has the same environment (Sky Sanctuary) and the same type of level design (linear corridor, rail switching), so the comparison fits IMO. BTW This is going way too far, you are definitely looking too much into a random sarcastic sentence meant to highlight how much disappointing the level design shown by those leaked videos is looking so far.

[NoKaine]

9 minutes ago, Iko said:

It's obviously NOT the same game, but there are some parts of it, mostly the rail switching and quickstep sections, which look exactly like an automatic runner game such as Sonic Dash or Speed Battle (and ironically, usually Sonic auto-runs in those parts). So far, all the videos of Frontiers' linear levels that leaked look similar to those sections, except the Green Hill one which anyway has blocky platforms, and Sonic is being launched by a spring in that video (the player is not in control of Sonic).

also "It looks like Forces Speed Battle, It doesn't look promising at all." is different than "it's literally Sonic Forces Speed Battle".

So far, from what was shown by leaks, it looks similar enough, it has the same environment (Sky Sanctuary) and the same type of level design (linear corridor, rail switching), so the comparison fits IMO. BTW This is going way too far, you are definitely looking too much into a random sarcastic sentence meant to highlight how much disappointing the level design shown by those leaked videos is looking so far.

How is it obvious? Looks the same to me. Unleashed is Sonic Forces Speed Battle, judging by that picture. It's going to have the same level design, judging by that picture. Every single level, every single section of every level in Unleashed, is exactly like that picture. 

"All of the videos of Frontiers' linear levels" can barely be discerned from its pixels, and barely amount to 5 seconds in total. There are automated sections in Adventure that last longer than that, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks it's just like Sonic Forces Speed Battle.

"from what was shown by leaks", everyone insists that the games are like Generations in level design as well as theme and assets. No one has ever said that they're like Forces or god forbid Speed Battle. Even people who didn't like the open world think the linear levels were much better and fun.

 

[Sonikko]

10 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

How is it obvious? Looks the same to me. Unleashed is Sonic Forces Speed Battle, judging by that picture. It's going to have the same level design, judging by that picture. Every single level, every single section of every level in Unleashed, is exactly like that picture. 

"All of the videos of Frontiers' linear levels" can barely be discerned from its pixels, and barely amount to 5 seconds in total. There are automated sections in Adventure that last longer than that, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks it's just like Sonic Forces Speed Battle.

"from what was shown by leaks", everyone insists that the games are like Generations in level design as well as theme and assets. No one has ever said that they're like Forces or god forbid Speed Battle. Even people who didn't like the open world think the linear levels were much better and fun.

You're giving the benefit of the doubt to the team that made Forces lol.

I agree that the footage we have isn't enough to judge a full stage, but at the same time even the broken-up-linear-stuff they showed in the open world is not that far removed from Forces design, I don't see how the stages are going to be anything more than automated grindrail loop -> boost forward in empty 3d space -> spring launches you up to higher ground -> boost forward in empty 3d space -> quickstep on rails -> repeat.

We have had enough games made by this current team and director to kinda fill in the blanks of the footage we've seen.

[light-gaia]

If this leak of old stages for Sonic to recover his memory is true, maybe that stage that looks like Green Hill is actually Palmtree Panic from Sonic CD. The game Amy was first introduced
 

[Diogenes]

31 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

For the record, for every genuinely inspired remixed level like Chemical Plant and Oil Ocean, there's levels like Lava Reef which I'm pretty sure is just Lava Reef with no noticeable gimmicks or additions whatsoever.

Within the first few seconds of LRZ Act 1 you've got the plesiosaurus badniks from Hill Top and the big stompy machine from Metallic Madness, and Act 2 throws in Quartz Quadrant's conveyor belts with directional switches. There isn't a single returning zone in Mania that doesn't add multiple things that are either entirely new or remixed from entirely different zones.

[light-gaia]

I don't believe all cyberspace levels are from Sonic Generations, because the leaks would mention that. Several leaks mentioned the cyberspace levels, but only Zippo recently mentioned they are the same levels from Sonic Generations.

Maybe it's like Team Sonic Racing, they reused some old tracks, but most of them are new. It's a weird choice anyway, but makes more sense to me.

[Zoomzeta]

...I'll just wait for them to show them in an official capacity.