Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Kuzu]

While I do agree that Sonic's model needs an update, I don't think that one really fits with the style Frontiers is going for. It would make Sonic feel even more out of place than he already is with the Forces model.

[Razule]

16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

While I do agree that Sonic's model needs an update, I don't think that one really fits with the style Frontiers is going for. It would make Sonic feel even more out of place than he already is with the Forces model.

Sonic's going to stand out either way unless they bite the bullet and give him fur. If they cared about that, they wouldn't have put him unchanged into a world with an aesthetic like this. Again.

[Blue Blood]

24 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

While I do agree that Sonic's model needs an update, I don't think that one really fits with the style Frontiers is going for. It would make Sonic feel even more out of place than he already is with the Forces model.

The purpose of that example isn't to show something the would necessarily be a better fit for Frontiers, but is instead to show a model that's a better adaptation of the 2D art that Sonic is based on than the one currently used in . Something that better maintains Sonic's key shapes and proportions. 

[azoo]

Absolutely not to say it will, but it’s worth mentioning that Unleashed, even despite its development for roughly a year and a half before announcement, had a different model until its last six to eight months of development.

Not to put hope that they'll change it, because I genuinely don’t care if they do or not. But it’s food for thought.

[Kuzu]

50 minutes ago, Razule said:

Sonic's going to stand out either way unless they bite the bullet and give him fur. If they cared about that, they wouldn't have put him unchanged into a world with an aesthetic like this. Again.

Id argue it honestly wasn't as pronounced before. Even when 06 veered far into the photo-realism, they simply stretch his limbs out.

I don't think they're going to give him fur though. That's fine for the movies, but Sonic characters "quils" have always been treated more like Anime hair than actual fur.

40 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The purpose of that example isn't to show something the would necessarily be a better fit for Frontiers, but is instead to show a model that's a better adaptation of the 2D art that Sonic is based on than the one currently used in . Something that better maintains Sonic's key shapes and proportions. 

I agree, but it needs to be designed in a way that meshes with the game's aesthetic. That design mainly works for an Adventure like game, which I don't think Frontiers is trying to be.

Its why I generally understand why Sonic's model is always changing, because you can't just keep the same model and expect it to fit in the game.

[Detective Kaito]

1 minute ago, azoo said:

it’s worth mentioning that Unleashed, even despite its development for roughly a year and a half before announcement, had a different model until its last six to eight months of development.

Yes but it's not like they reused 06's model, they made a new model for Unleashed even in those pre-release screenshots. In Frontiers they're straight up using the exact same model from Forces, why would they do that if they already have another new model planned? I seriously doubt that new model isn't good enough to be shown, like it has been over 4 years since Forces came out. Come on, man.

It's pretty obvious to me that they're just planning on reusing the Forces model and just giving it new animations to work with the different gameplay. It's not the end of the world that they're doing that, but it's mostly likely what they're gonna do.

[azoo]

Why are you replying like I’m trying to convince you it’s not gonna be the final model? lol It likely is, I’m just pointing out that things aren’t always set in stone, especially a solid year before release, so it’s not like this conversation is all too productive in either direction.

It’s just a model, anyways. Not even to speak of its animations.

[Diogenes]

16 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Yes but it's not like they reused 06's model, they made a new model for Unleashed even in those pre-release screenshots. In Frontiers they're straight up using the exact same model from Forces, why would they do that if they already have another new model planned?

Gotta use something before the new one's made. I mean if they are planning to replace it, doesn't it make more sense that they'd just reuse an existing model as a placeholder rather than creating a new one, then throwing it out in favor of an even newer one?

Not that I think the odds are good, regardless.

[Detective Kaito]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Gotta use something before the new one's made.

Sonic Frontiers has been in development for longer than any Sonic game, ever. It would be very concerning if they still don't have the main character's model ready (or at least good enough to be shown for 2 seconds), assuming they do in fact plan to use a new model.

I'm getting serious Sonic Forces flashbacks. Years and years of waiting with nothing to show for it.

[azoo]

I'm not entirely sure why the current Marza model isn't what they're using as a base. This gen should handle it just fine, hell, last gen should've been able t--

Ah yes. The Switch. A console now two generations behind. Gotta love it.

Upon stepping back and looking at all the footage again, that motionless Sonic + not showing any gameplay itself really does just reek of placeholder. So nevermind, I'm swinging back in the other direction; it likely is a placeholder. If it's not then shame on me for expecting better, but Sega doesn't usually cut corners on the visual department, the anomaly of Forces (and its troubled development) notwithstanding.

[Blue Blood]

11 minutes ago, azoo said:

I'm not entirely sure why the current Marza model isn't what they're using as a base. This gen should handle it just fine, hell, last gen should've been able t--

Ah yes. The Switch. A console now two generations behind. Gotta love it.

I don't know what the solution to this predicament is. I want to see Sonic games try to make the most of a system's capabilities, as was the case with the PS3/360 Sonic games. But Sonic just sells better on Nintendo platforms. What can they do? Make separate Switch versions to suit the lower spec hardware, ala Unleashed Wii and Generations 3DS? Or bog the rest of the platforms down so that the game is still Switch compatible for a simultaneous multiplatform launch even though the Switch version will still be inferior, ala Forces? 

I'm guessing the latter is what they'll go for. Times have changed, and I don't think it's SEGA's style to release multiple products for different hardware anymore, be that separate versions or different games entirely. Notably though, the Frontiers Switch trailer is the only one that has the "NOT FINAL GAMEPLAY FOOTAGE" disclaimer. Unless SEGA goes the Cloud-game route, they're already making it clear that the Switch version is going to look like arse. 

[Indigo Rush]

Kind of tired of the whining about the Forces model. Sonic's spikes could be as long and floppy as relationship-drama era Archie Sonic and it wouldn't matter one iota if he isn't animated properly; Forces' Sonic model would've been received better if they actually animated him like they should've.

[Scar]

7 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

I don't know what the solution to this predicament is. I want to see Sonic games try to make the most of a system's capabilities, as was the case with the PS3/360 Sonic games. But Sonic just sells better on Nintendo platforms. What can they do? Make separate Switch versions to suit the lower spec hardware, ala Unleashed Wii and Generations 3DS? Or bog the rest of the platforms down so that the game is still Switch compatible for a simultaneous multiplatform launch even though the Switch version will still be inferior, ala Forces? 

I'm guessing the latter is what they'll go for. Times have changed, and I don't think it's SEGA's style to release multiple products for different hardware anymore, be that separate versions or different games entirely. Notably though, the Frontiers Switch trailer is the only one that has the "NOT FINAL GAMEPLAY FOOTAGE" disclaimer. Unless SEGA goes the Cloud-game route, they're already making it clear that the Switch version is going to look like arse. 

Level of detail models are already used frequently in games.

No harm in making a super duper high res, high poly model for PS5 and Xbox Series. Then a much more polygon efficient model for the Switch. The Switch should be able to handle the Unleashed model no problem, and that has 22,000 triangles.

[Blue Blood]

6 minutes ago, Scar said:

Level of detail models are already used frequently in games.

No harm in making a super duper high res, high poly model for PS5 and Xbox Series. Then a much more polygon efficient model for the Switch. The Switch should be able to handle the Unleashed model no problem, and that has 22,000 triangles.

The capabilities of a machine go well beyond how many polygons it can handle for player character models. The rendering entire engine will be built with hardware in mind. However Frontiers is being made, its being done with the caveat that it needs to run on Switch as well as higher end systems. 

[Razule]

56 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Kind of tired of the whining about the Forces model. Sonic's spikes could be as long and floppy as relationship-drama era Archie Sonic and it wouldn't matter one iota if he isn't animated properly; Forces' Sonic model would've been received better if they actually animated him like they should've.

Yeah. Also, he should breakdance. That'd make him real lively. Maybe he cycles through different poses, too, that'd please everyone.

If I leave the room without pausing, I should come back to see a whole performance.

 

[NoKaine]

1 hour ago, Detective Kaito said:

 Sonic Frontiers has been in development for longer than any Sonic game, ever.

You try to make it sound more impressive than it is. Three years is slightly above average development time for most games. 

 

1 hour ago, Detective Kaito said:

It would be very concerning if they still don't have the main character's model ready

Character models are so easy to make and swap in relative to the rest of the game that it makes more sense to worry about that last. 

Big-ass ambitious open world game, the first priority is not "gotta make the character model look slightly different, y'know, since it's still fundamentally be the same Modern Sonic design we've had for a decade!"

The overwhelming majority of players do not pick at the incredibly minor and insignificant details in a character model that to them looks literally identical to the past 10 years of character models, so it is likely not a concern to Sonic Team.

Assuming they are actually having problems with the model and aren't just using footage from an old or modified build. No actual proof of that there's any trouble or struggle in that regard, besides believing that all material in promotion is literally what they made the day before they showed it. There is often a lead time between "current build" and "build they show in trailers." Remember how Sonic '06 released with a build that was less advanced than the build they showed in marketing? Same with Sonic Boom.

Sonic in the in-game footage doesn't even move. And he only appears once. There is also no way there is literally no items or objects to interact with and that there's just literally the environment map. The trailer to me screams cherry-picked footage and is not literally representative of what the developers currently have. 

We know about the leaks and rumors, they are basically confirmed. They've had working gameplay maps since 2019, and one leaker alleges that Sonic has an entirely new model anyway. 

1 hour ago, Detective Kaito said:

I'm getting serious Sonic Forces flashbacks. Years and years of waiting with nothing to show for it.

I have to wait for a video game to release, it's like Sonic Forces all over again!

[FlameStream]

Not really voicing opinion/concern over the model used in the trailer, but I'm a little surprised some people did not see the difference between the LW/Forces one and the previous ones.

One visual way to know if it's the model used in the newer games, quill length aside, is its organization. The latter one uses a star-like shape (1-3-2 from top) while the other ones, including CG is more like 3 columns of 2 (1-2-1-2 from top).

The reason for this odd organization is likely because the games are more 2D than 3D. The silhouette is simplified when looking sideway.

I can guess that some of complaint is due the existence of a much better model out there, even for the Switch: 2020 Olympic. I understand that it's not the same type of game though. Still, with this game assumed to be mostly 3D, we can probably revert back to a more on-model model.

[Alex2Beta]

I honestly to don't care about the length of his spikes or maybe even the exact shade of blue (though I do see the issue with the center quill being too high in the Forces model), because as long as he's animated as stiffly as Forces - it's gonna always come down to that for me.

I just want exaggerated, bouncy and lively animations to go along with the game, man.

[azoo]

The Forces model looks fine from most angles, it's really just the front that bothers me. His face looks really thin, like scrunched up around the muzzle, in a way that I don't know how to explain properly. Either way, it's negligable, and I honestly think the spikes being a more bulky shape is better than it was before, even if I prefer the longer spines.
 

Spoiler

I can't get with the people that think the Olympics model is better, though.

Looks less defined in every way, the face looks really flat for some reason, and front mouth has just about NEVER looked good on Sonic. I'd much rather something akin to the current Smash model, if you asked me to be picky.

But yeah, none of this matters compared to the animations. If 06 could make that hideous model look good with it's animations (bar that shit airplane-run), then anything can happen. Forces is kinda proof of the inverse, really; really stiff and boring animations on what's otherwise a fine model.

[Josh]

I'm fine with the Forces model, personally. And I'm throwing that out there because sometimes lately, I feel like the only person who actually still LIKES shorter spines on Modern Sonic, haha. It can't just be me, right? The big floppy quills always just made him look kinda awkward and top-heavy, and they contribute considerably to the "mascot costume" problem.

My favorite modern look is still the Sonic Runners version. I think it manages to recapture a lot of the appeal of the classic design, without sacrificing the strengths unique to modern.

[MH MD]

22 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

 

He also said that it was a brand new Sonic model and not the one from Forces. Pretty sure he's dead wrong on that though. 

True, it's the one glaring error that didn't match that i noticed right away, but it COULD be a placeholder model from an older build, wasn't the previous trailer actually dated back to 2020? similar things could be happening here

or not and it's just the final look, but it's one thing to consider, wouldn't even be the first Sonic game to have a placeholder model during early development

[Shaddy Zaphod]

6 hours ago, FlameStream said:

The reason for this odd organization is likely because the games are more 2D than 3D.

Lost World isn't.

[Blue Blood]

30 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Lost World isn't.

Lost World does have completely different artstyle though, and the camera is positioned different to other 3D games. It's normally positioned above Sonic instead of behind him. The model was better suited to that game. 

[Iko]

7 hours ago, Josh said:

I'm fine with the Forces model, personally. And I'm throwing that out there because sometimes lately, I feel like the only person who actually still LIKES shorter spines on Modern Sonic, haha. It can't just be me, right? The big floppy quills always just made him look kinda awkward and top-heavy, and they contribute considerably to the "mascot costume" problem.

My favorite modern look is still the Sonic Runners version. I think it manages to recapture a lot of the appeal of the classic design, without sacrificing the strengths unique to modern.

You are not alone, I prefer shorter quills as well.

[KHCast]

Someone I saw on Twitter made a gameplay mock up of how the game in action could look, with a hud screen and everything. What do you guys think?