Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, FirePheonix said:

Umm what? I am sorry but Unleashed and Forces can not be compared in the slightest, Just play a day time stage in Unleashed and then a level in Forces and tell me that they are similar, you would just be lying to yourself.

Not to mention, quality is subjective, not universal. Just wanted to point that out.

But yeah, Unleashed had a higher budget compared to Forces, among other things, and as @NoKaine pointed out, the reviews given to Unleashed and Forces, even if similar in score, were for different reasons, based on the reviewer's opinion. Hence the quality being subjective part.

[CertifiedNobody]

6 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Actually, the reason Unleashed and Forces have similar metacritic scores is because they're similar levels of quality.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

9 minutes ago, FirePheonix said:

Umm what? I am sorry but Unleashed and Forces can not be compared in the slightest, Just play a day time stage in Unleashed and then a level in Forces and tell me that they are similar, you would just be lying to yourself.

You know what? You're right, Forces is slightly better.

[Iko]

Sorry to change topic all of a sudden, but I just remembered that one of the earliest leaks said that there were little creatures, like chao but different, which were made of stone; you had to rescue them and bring them on top of the ubisoft towers for some korok seeds-like side quest. I don't know if that was real and even if they will still be part of the final game, but it's still interesting to know. I think that leak also mentioned grind rails used to climb the tower or something.

The author of the post said that they made an extremely annoying sound.

[McGroose]

2 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

You know what? You're right, Forces is slightly better.

You are completely entitled to your opinion of course, wrong as it may be

[NoKaine]

1 minute ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

You know what? You're right, Forces is slightly better.

 

1 minute ago, Iko said:

Sorry to change topic all of a sudden, but I just remembered that one of the earliest leaks said that there were little creatures, like chao but different, which were made of stone; you had to rescue them and bring them on top of the ubisoft towers for some korok seeds-like side quest. I don't know if that was real and even if they will still be part of the final game, but it's still interesting to know. I think that leak also mentioned grind rails used to climb the tower or something.

The author of the post said that they made an extremely annoying sound.

I know what you're talking about, but I curiously don't remember any other leak mention them.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

1 minute ago, McGroose said:

You are completely entitled to your opinion of course, wrong as it may be

Again, completely fair. I should have said it was a lot better. That would be far more correct.

[CertifiedNobody]

21 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Again, completely fair. I should have said it was a lot better. That would be far more correct.

The amount of people falling for obvious bait is hilarious.

22 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

 

I know what you're talking about, but I curiously don't remember any other leak mention them.

They were probably removed given the poster's negative reaction to them.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

No bait. Either Unleashed is bad and Forces is good, or we admit all four of these games are basically the same quality-wise.

[FlameStream]

Adding back to a previous topic before this derailment.

Shipping any game in time in our current gamedev environment is a miracle itself, considering every factors involved. This is not just a Sonic or Sega issue.

[Scar]

2 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

No bait. Either Unleashed is bad and Forces is good, or we admit all four of these games are basically the same.

That's insanely reductive.

Games can be similar, but not the same. There are numerous differences between Unleashed, Colours, Generations and Forces, despite their similarities.

[Detective Kaito]

In case anyone wanted more proof that the Frontiers' trailer uses Forces' Sonic model.

There are minor differences, and it doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things, but it is a bit concerning that they didn't even bother to change his standing pose; it looks so stiff. This could just be a placeholder, but why would a game 4 years into development use a placeholder model for its main character in a trailer? It's just so odd.

[Wraith]

The standing pose is based off of Classic Sonic's old idle pose and it's not like there was a huge uproar about it being terrible. They probably just didn't change it cause they didn't see a reason.

[Kuzu]

There was a bit of fit about the Sonic Forces model lacking idle animations and different homing attack poses. 

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

There was a bit of fit about the Sonic Forces model lacking idle animations and different homing attack poses. 

This is stuff they could fix without changing the base. They could also...not, and I won't defend them if they don't, but yeah. Give it time.

[Kuzu]

I suppose this line of discussion is relevant given the points going around how they should have made Sonic's model more realistic to fit in line with this setting like they attempted with Sonic 06...or just do something more stylized. 

 

This is just Unleashed tier stuff sooooo :V

[Diogenes]

I'm not really sure why people are down on the pose itself. The lack of animation, sure, but the pose itself looks far more interesting to me than when he just stood there facing straight forward, perfectly symmetrical.

[Wraith]

I like it personally. It solves the problem of his old pose being too bland, and it's a subtle little throwback that's not too in your face.

[herefor1reason]

I can't say anything with 100% certainty. That said, the complete and total re-use of the Forces model, pose and all, signals to me with some confidence that this is a place holder. I have some suspicion that the trailer is from an old build too but less grounding or confidence to back it up.

[Kuzu]

If nothing else, the pose certainly conveys more character than simply standing and facing ahead. 

[Razule]

Were as many people complaining about the pose in Lost World when it was animated? If not, it seems like the problem is literally just that they removed any indication he was alive. It's a really simple, below bare minimum thing. It would've been even more jarring without it if he was just standing like he did in the previous games. If he doesn't have idle animations in Frontiers it wouldn't be a huge deal, but it'd be odd. 

As for the model itself.. I don't understand why they'd purposely make his in-game model just slightly different enough from the standard design they use in everything else that it's noticeable. During Lost World's development, did they consider slightly redesigning Modern Sonic, decided against it, but kept the model anyway because no one would notice something so insignificant?

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

The standing pose is based off of Classic Sonic's old idle pose and it's not like there was a huge uproar about it being terrible. They probably just didn't change it cause they didn't see a reason.

You mean Sonic 3...

His hands were clearly on his sides in 1 & 2...and even 3D Blast.

Not that'd really matter in 3D, since in 3D an idle stance like that would be more unnatural than him just standing still. That's why it's important to have idle animations, animations that would totally be his idle stance in a 2D game but not one he'd just be unnaturally stuck in when he stops moving in 3D.

[Detective Kaito]

I don't see what's wrong with Sonic's standing pose in Unleashed/Gens, that's like how 99% of characters stand. Mario, Link, Kirby, Crash, etc. all look fine with their standing pose, it's only Sonic who looks stiff as a board cause they want to reference a pose that only looked good in 2D.

Not to mention that if we assume that they are reusing the Forces model, it's a missed opportunity to give him a new 3D model. Similar to how Mario got a new model when they jumped from 3D World to Odyssey for example. It feel like Sonic is just perpetually stuck in 2008, although most people would argue that his current model is worse than his Unleashed model from back then.

[Kuzu]

50 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

I don't see what's wrong with Sonic's standing pose in Unleashed/Gens, that's like how 99% of characters stand. Mario, Link, Kirby, Crash, etc. all look fine with their standing pose, it's only Sonic who looks stiff as a board cause they want to reference a pose that only looked good in 2D.

Not to mention that if we assume that they are reusing the Forces model, it's a missed opportunity to give him a new 3D model. Similar to how Mario got a new model when they jumped from 3D World to Odyssey for example. It feel like Sonic is just perpetually stuck in 2008, although most people would argue that his current model is worse than his Unleashed model from back then.

Yea, but should a series like Sonic be striving to be like everyone else?

[Blue Blood]

3 hours ago, Detective Kaito said:

I don't see what's wrong with Sonic's standing pose in Unleashed/Gens, that's like how 99% of characters stand. Mario, Link, Kirby, Crash, etc. all look fine with their standing pose, it's only Sonic who looks stiff as a board cause they want to reference a pose that only looked good in 2D.

Not to mention that if we assume that they are reusing the Forces model, it's a missed opportunity to give him a new 3D model. Similar to how Mario got a new model when they jumped from 3D World to Odyssey for example. It feel like Sonic is just perpetually stuck in 2008, although most people would argue that his current model is worse than his Unleashed model from back then.

Both the pose and the model are problems. 

The model, design wise I mean, I don't like very much. It gives Sonic shorter spines, shorter legs and hands that are way too big. It's just not very nice to look at. The Unleashed/Generations model is much nicer. Thing is though, all of the existing models from previous games look dated now. Sonic lacks much detail in all of his existing models, which are all rooted in the 2008 Unleashed model. Everything's at least 13 years old at this point and could do with a refresher. That's not a whole new design, because the general Modern Sonic design is great and Sonic really doesn't need a whole new look. I'm just advocating some tweaks and refinements to slightly modify proportions and to better resemble the 2D art on which he's based. This discussion has been going on at Retro too, and Metalwario64 posted this awesome render he made based on a custom high poly version of the SA2 model:

There's so much detail in this, and the shapes are brilliant. Sonic's spines look sharp, rather than the floppy, fleshy masses that they look like in the models that SEGA currently use. His muzzle doesn't have any weird lips around his mouth and its nicely shaped again to match the 2D art. And least but not least, his hands aren't nearly as big as they in current models either. It's just all all-round winner. 

Moving on to the pose now, the problem with the Forces pose is how animated it isn't. 

This particular pose that Sonic's in is barely animated. It's quite a forced an unnatural pose to hold, so seeing Sonic standing like that whilst barely breathing and never blinking looks awkward. It's the sort of pose he should hold for a few seconds after action, before reverting to a natural, relaxed pose ala Unleashed. 

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not talking about the fact that Sonic doesn't have a bunch of different idle animations in Forces as he does in other games. That's a problem, but not the one I'm addressing.

The idle pose might seem like a really small thing to nitpick, but Forces' model and animation quality stuck out to a lot of people for the wrong reasons. It's disappointing to see the same assets return here. I also think its a shame that they've not tweaked Sonic slightly to better match the artstyle of the game. All of the 3D games up to Unleashed used different models to suit the art direction of the particular games. It would have been nice to see them go all out on Sonic's model for Frontiers, seeing as they've clearly done so for the environments.