Rally 4 Sally

[antyep]

12 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Fuck yeah! I’d definitely love a playable Sally that flipped around and kicked ass like Kim Possible.

Damn, now that I think of it, Sally and Kim have a lot in common, only difference being royalty and leadership skills what with Kim usually working by herself or a small group of 2-3 people (with exceptions, it’s been a while since I’ve watched Kim Possible).

Since when was Kim royalty? I never seen that.

Well replace that with Antoine being the Ron XD, Rotor the Wade, and Bunnie the Monique if she had her future self’s skills XD

[shdowhunt60]

You know, I think my whole deal with trying to bring back the Freedom Fighters is like...

You know if SEGA actually does decide to bring them back, they won't be the same right? And I don't mean in the sense of Reboot!Archie. I mean, as in the the totality of these character's histories and all that that define who they are... That can't come back. They can't have had any prior relationship to the SEGA cast, Mobotropolis and Knothole never existed, corroboration as depicted in SatAM never was a thing in the games...

Like, they won't be the same. The reason why we like the Freedom Fighters is because of the history they had. That wouldn't have happened in this case.

[Sean]

9 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

You know, I think my whole deal with trying to bring back the Freedom Fighters is like...

You know if SEGA actually does decide to bring them back, they won't be the same right? And I don't mean in the sense of Reboot!Archie. I mean, as in the the totality of these character's histories and all that that define who they are... That can't come back. They can't have had any prior relationship to the SEGA cast, Mobotropolis and Knothole never existed, corroboration as depicted in SatAM never was a thing in the games...

Like, they won't be the same. The reason why we like the Freedom Fighters is because of the history they had. That wouldn't have happened in this case.

That didn't stop Sega from incorporating Amy and Charmy into the games, or the Chaotix into the modern games, while completely disregarding their original histories and personalities. But keep making up problems that somehow only specifically apply to the FFs and no other character in Sonic history, or in all of fiction, I guess.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

Sally will likely not get a spinoff game, nor a cameo until she re-appears in the new Sonic comics (has she?). The only game I know of that she got a cameo in was Sonic Spinball: 

 

[Celestia]

23 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

They can't have had any prior relationship to the SEGA cast, Mobotropolis and Knothole never existed, corroboration as depicted in SatAM never was a thing in the games...

The reboot already made it so Sonic didn't meet them as kids and literally nobody on the entire planet cared. I don't think anyone would mind seeing him meet them for the first time in a new continuity, except for people that for some reason can't wrap their heads around the idea of new continuities, something that for some reason I only see with Sonic fans.

I also don't see why locations associated them would have to be dropped? If SEGA owns them they must own those concepts too. Again though if they just called it something else nobody would care, lol.

[shdowhunt60]

5 minutes ago, Sean said:

That didn't stop Sega from incorporating Amy and Charmy into the games, or the Chaotix into the modern games, while completely disregarding their original histories and personalities. But keep making up problems that somehow only specifically apply to the FFs and no other character in Sonic history, or in all of fiction, I guess.

I don't think either of those cases are really a that equivalent though. With those characters, they were all in really, really obscure spinoff content that nobody in the West had probably seen before. The Freedom Fighters on the other hand were featured in a pretty well-known multi seasoned Saturday Morning cartoon when the franchise was pretty much at its peak popularity, plus a 25 year long serialized successful comic series that had a very well established cult following.

I don't think they can just do that again with the FF's and it would just fly. A lot of people were furious at Reboot!Archie as it was, and that's with some relatively minor changes to their characters. They were allowed to keep their histories, they just never "happened"... Even though they totally did, we just can't directly address it. The relationship dynamics were the same, even with the SEGA cast.

 

[Sean]

Literally every decision Sega can possibly make with the series will make some fans angry. It's not worth worrying about.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

4 minutes ago, Sean said:

Literally every decision Sega can possibly make with the series will make some fans angry. It's not worth worrying about.

True, and we always have our own headcanons and can go back to our beloved stories of the past, especially thanks go the internet. 

[thumbs13]

4 hours ago, Sean said:

That didn't stop Sega from incorporating Amy and Charmy into the games, or the Chaotix into the modern games, while completely disregarding their original histories and personalities. But keep making up problems that somehow only specifically apply to the FFs and no other character in Sonic history, or in all of fiction, I guess.

...Isn't the fact that the Chaotix got ported to the modern games and they had to pretend like Knuckles' Chaotix never happened proof that they could easily drop everything people liked about the FF?

 

[E-122-Psi]

I do have to say that, while I like Amy and Charmy, I don't have any past attachment to their original manga forms (I didn't even know they originated from there until after playing Heroes in fact), though with that said I do think I could empathise with anyone who was acquainted with the manga beforehand and likely wonders 'What was even the point?' if they made them so distant from their original forms (Charmy in particular could have just been another separate bee, especially since the ways both versions were Sonic-styled is barely similar). The two characters are fun, but not much for anything they adapted from their original counterparts, so I wouldn't be baffled to meet a manga fan upset by that, especially since, from what I know, the manga itself had to homogenise to the games versions to some degree as a result.

I do think it's over generalising saying 'People should be thankful they appear at all', there is surely an appeal that should be worth translating to the games if they are gonna bother adapting them. And no I am not singling out the FF out of personal grudge or anything, I could say the same for many characters from alternate canons that have appeal specifically through a developed degree of lore and dynamic. Sure they might end up like Amy and Charmy where they could have very different but still popular games counterparts, but you have to ask if that would really appeal to many of the fans who wanted them in the first place. 

I mean let's take how the retooled Crash Bandicoot games by Radical reimagined Tiny Tiger. Fans HATED it, and they hated it specifically because it was nothing like Tiny. Some fans have even stated their qualms weren't even with the characterisation or design itself, which could have worked fine as a new separate character, but trying to make it Tiny just for the sake of a very flimsy link to an existing character actually alienated more fans that it appeased. 

[Sean]

Again I have to ask why this even matters. You will never please everyone, and at some point you have to stop worrying about it when you are creating entertainment. Iizuka risked alienating Chaotix fans by rebooting them for Heroes and the series survived just fine. Discussing whether something will anger a subsection of Sonic fans is worthless because that reaction is unavoidable.

[E-122-Psi]

17 minutes ago, Sean said:

Again I have to ask why this even matters. You will never please everyone, and at some point you have to stop worrying about it when you are creating entertainment. Iizuka risked alienating Chaotix fans by rebooting them for Heroes and the series survived just fine. Discussing whether something will anger a subsection of Sonic fans is worthless because that reaction is unavoidable.

That feels like over generalising, like with the 'well someone's gonna get screwed over either way' outlook they could do anything to the franchise. Doesn't mean they shouldn't try to keep SOME moderation and attempt to keep as large an amount of people as possible happy.

Izuka's take on Chaotix to me isn't the best example, since yes, while Izuka did take SOME liberties on them, the Chaotix, in the games at least, weren't really well established characters, they're actually almost blank slates outside western bios. Some details that had been set up  like them being detectives or at least investigators in the Japanese manual or Vector's love for music and general goofiness were maintained, and their designs were still fairly loyal to the Knuckles Chaotix ones just with some tweaks and attire changes, otherwise a lot of the retools were just for things that were barely established in their first appearance to begin with. Besides their team work with Knuckles and Mighty, which wasn't even that story/character focused in the game itself, a lot of their original forms are still translated (well except Charmy for reasons already stated, though I wouldn't be surprised if Izuka probably didn't even know about the manga background by that point).

[Sean]

So what is it that you want to hear? For me to admit that Sega can't incorporate the FFs because they can screw up? Even though they can try lots of other things that fans want such as rolling physics and multiple playable characters and screw those up too? Because this conversation has been worthless from the start and screams the most obnoxious sense of gatekeeping to me I have ever witnessed in this fandom. I don't care whether Sega would mess up putting Sally in the games or not because absolutely nothing that is written in this topic or on this entire message board will ever affect Sega's decisions on how the games are made. I'd like to go five steps without people flaunting their ingrained bias against these characters and informing me why they can't work at all, especially in a thread that didn't warrant that particular aggression in the first place. I'm amazed that this thread has gone on for this long without the detractors understanding this one single point.

Quote

That feels like over generalising, like with the 'well someone's gonna get screwed over either way' outlook they could do anything to the franchise. Doesn't mean they shouldn't try to keep SOME moderation and attempt to keep as large an amount of people as possible happy.

I don't care. I'm just a fan posting on some message board talking about what I like about Sonic. Save this for Sega's board meetings when they're discussing how to go about the next Sonic game.

[Celestia]

I know that things have changed with how they manage stuff like the comics, but we can tell from the original characters in the comics that they're still not as restrictive of non-game characters. They gave some feedback on Whisper and it was actually a good idea, and then (as far as we know) let Ian do whatever with her. I'm pretty sure the FF would be given the same distinction.

We won't know unless something, uh, happens. I actually do think it's completely possible (likely, even) that SEGA will randomly change their minds and let characters from older continuities be added to the comics again, since they randomly change their minds about things all the time. If I'm not wrong we'll find out eventually, whether it's next year or 20 years from now. GET HYPE!

[E-122-Psi]

27 minutes ago, Sean said:

So what is it that you want to hear? For me to admit that Sega can't incorporate the FFs because they can screw up? Even though they can try lots of other things that fans want such as rolling physics and multiple playable characters and screw those up too? Because this conversation has been worthless from the start and screams the most obnoxious sense of gatekeeping to me I have ever witnessed in this fandom. I don't care whether Sega would mess up putting Sally in the games or not because absolutely nothing that is written in this topic or on this entire message board will ever affect Sega's decisions on how the games are made. I'd like to go five steps without people flaunting their ingrained bias against these characters and informing me why they can't work at all, especially in a thread that didn't warrant that particular aggression in the first place. I'm amazed that this thread has gone on for this long without the detractors understanding this one single point.

I don't care. I'm just a fan posting on some message board talking about what I like about Sonic. Save this for Sega's board meetings when they're discussing how to go about the next Sonic game.

Yes, well other fans are allowed speak their opinions in a message board as well you know, even if you think it is negative and counterproductive. There is nothing here saying we can only discuss the positives of the situation and say only  'happy thoughts happy thoughts'. You think it's any less obnoxious and aggressive coming down on people who just want to speak their own wariness to the idea and accusing them of 'gatekeeping' the franchise? Everyone's entitled to give their own two cents of the idea, if they didn't there would be no conversation, and even then I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs 'NEVER NEVER DO IT!' I'm just saying there's RISKS.

When an idea is pitched, people want to discuss the GOOD and BAD it has potentially since that's how you assess an idea.

[Tornado]

3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

You think it's any less obnoxious and aggressive coming down on people who just want to speak their own wariness to the idea and accusing them of 'gatekeeping' the franchise?

It's absolutely more obnoxious for someone to wander back into a thread pages later and start repeating the same shit that was being said on page one as if no one has responded to any of it since it was said then, yes.

 

Quote

Everyone's entitled to give their own two cents of the idea, if they didn't there would be no conversation.

You're not interested in having a conversation about this any more than the times you've repeated the same statements over and over and over again regardless of how anyone has responded to you anywhere else in the forum for the past two weeks, so miss me with that shit.

[E-122-Psi]

4 minutes ago, Tornado said:

It's absolutely more obnoxious for someone to wander back into a thread pages later and start repeating the same shit that was being said on page one as if no one has responded to any of it since it was said then, yes.

You guys' response is just the same personal insults and telling me and anyone else who said anything remotely negative to shut up and stop gatekeeping, so I beg to differ. I find one thing more obnoxious than repetitive critique and that's virtue signalling.

[Dr. Detective]

I can take or leave some of the stuff from older continuities but I'm still hoping they start allowing for some of the established main cast to get more of a push too. They're so stingy when it comes to these characters nowadays. Even back then, I couldn't play a Riders game without wondering where the Chaotix were in the roster. They were gone. Not there. What about Omega? Nope. Maybe you'll see him at the Olympics? Nope. He's not even in that anymore. 

Thankfully, TSR saw him making a comeback in a meaningful, playable way and not just as another skin in a mobile game but I'm still waiting for the day where they'll be comfortable utilizing their roster like it's Mario Kart or Smash Bros. in their spin-offs.

Like, speaking of Charmy, I probably don't even need to mention that Charmy's playability has been relegated to mobile games pretty much exclusively. Hell, Espio isn't much better. He gets like a side-gig in the Olympics for one event and that's it. 

I'll drink to a brighter future anyway.

Well, not drink. I don't drink.

Maybe I'll have a hard lemonade.

Good things have happened and its important to recognize when they do after all. 

[Tornado]

13 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

You guys' response is just the same personal insults and telling me and anyone else who said anything remotely negative to shut up and stop gatekeeping, so I beg to differ. 

Crying crocodile tears about how every attempt to engage a discussion with you on this matter has gone so far doesn't make your attempts to say the same thing over and over and over again and hope no one notices that you're not actually responding to what people are saying any less obvious. It doesn't in this thread. It didn't in that status update from the other day. It won't when you try to do it again like I'm sure you will.

[GentlemanX]

So I want to bring up some characters that I think might demonstrate the pros and cons of both angles for the Freedom Fighters.

You guys love the Koopalings? I do. A lot of people do. Many people are apathetic toward them. And when they were playable in Mario Kart 8 a lot of people were outright frustrated by them because of the number of character slots they took up. So they run the gambit of emotions from folks. But back when they were introduced in Super Mario Bros. 3, I gather it was a big deal. I didn't play Mario 3 as I never got it or a re-release. My first exposure to the Koopalings was actually the Nintendo Adventure Books. For those unaware, they were a series of children's choose-your-own-adventure books where you got to decide what Mario or another character would do, go to the page indicated, and see what the result of your choice brought. My local library had books one and three: Double Trouble and Monster Mix-Up. Anyway, I loved those books and were some of the first Mario content I consumed after Super Mario 64. Little did I know it'd be a long time before I would be able to get a new game with the Koopalings in it. After the characters reappeared in Super Mario World, they were completely dropped from the series. While they appeared in two high profile games, Mario 3 and Mario World, the characters were best known for being in Western media such as the Nintendo Adventure Books and comics, the DiC television series, and even some Western developed games like Mario is Missing and Hotel Mario. Sound familiar?

As far as relevant games go, 13 years after their appearance in Super Mario World, the Koopalings were used in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga - the first entry in the yet unproven Mario & Luigi series. After that, they'd disappear again for another six years before their return to the Mario series in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Since then, the Koopalings appear in all sorts of stuff. Mario & Luigi, New Super Mario Bros., Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros., some even appear in our own Mario & Sonic series! So what happened? Why were they brought back after so long? Because fans asked for them - a lot! But bringing them back resulted in changes and those changes angered a lot of their fans. The Koopalings were originally introduced as Bowser's children, and that fact appeared in all of the promotional material they appeared in such as the cartoons and print media. But during their absence, Nintendo introduced Bowser Jr. as Bowser's one and only son. So when the Koopalings were brought back, it was stated definitively that they were no now longer Bowser's children, but his minions. This didn't go over well with fans, and there are still people angry about this change.

But you know what change people are also still angry about? That he's called Dr. Eggman and not Dr. Robotnik. That is still such a big deal that the recent Hollywood blockbuster that took 2020 by storm had him called Dr. Robotnik. And that's cool, but most fans really don't care at this point. Most are perfectly happy calling him Dr. Eggman, or acknowledging that he's called Dr. Eggman at the very least. And that's true of the Koopalings as well. There are still people angry that they aren't Bowser's kids anymore, but most Koopalings fans like myself are incredibly enthusiastic that they're appearing at all. While some hated that the Koopalings took up seven slots in Mario Kart 8, I loved it. I finally got to play as these characters I read and knew about from before I was in grade school. They're in Super Smash Bros., one of the biggest titles on the market, and it's fun seeing them beat up characters infinitely more popular than them. And it's all because people, their fans, continued to ask Nintendo to bring them back.

The Freedom Fighters aren't the Koopalings. There are many notable changes to them. The Koopalings were developed by the team at Nintendo in Japan and first appeared in one of, it not the, most popular Mario game of all time. The Freedom Fighters were developed by Sega of America and DiC for an American television series which during development it was decided to give it a promotional comic book tie-in product. They were then given cameos in a Sega Technical Institute spin-off game also as promotion for the television series that came out that same year. The character that was by far the most popular, Sally, received a three-issue comic mini-series to test her popularity and it didn't do well enough to become an ongoing or receive another mini-series. She and Bunnie and Rotor are only slightly based off of the little animals in Sonic 1 with Sally being the only one to actual share the name of the animal she's based off of - Antoine isn't even that connected and didn't appear in Spinball. She did appear at Sega World Sydney due to her being more recognizable outside of Japan than Amy Rose at the time. Sega is aware of this popularity and would continue to give her special treatment in the Archie Comics due to her popularity which Ian has confirmed multiple times in the past. But the point remains, they aren't the Koopalings and there are significantly different circumstances behind their revival and possible revival respectively.

I can only speak for myself, but if I could get Sally Acorn in a NPC role in a Sonic game where she's fighting for a just cause, meets Sonic, he agrees to help her and all we get is her complimenting him while poking fun at his sense of humor which he finds jokingly unnecessary? I'd love that. If that meant she'd get Uekawa artwork on Sonic Channel with a profile telling me she's an activist? I'd love that. If that meant she could be an unlockable or DLC character in Team Sonic Racing 2 where's she's driving a Bug with an Acorn on it? I'd be over the moon. If it meant giving up her status as a princess, giving up her struggles against an evil dictator, giving up her ability place as a leader of a specific team, and giving up on her being the love interest and second most important character in the narrative? I'd be fine with it. Because at least they're doing something with her of value. Because I get to see her doing new things in new material.

If Sega brought back the Archie book and IDW started publishing as if the cancellation never happened, or the reboot never happened, or if Sega decided to make a third season of SatAM that picks up from the cliffhanger - I'd be over the moon too. But none of those things exist, and they certainly aren't going to exist if Sega doesn't even believe Sally or the Freedom Fighters are worth putting in a mobile game where I can currently play as Shadow dressed up like a vampire. Koopalings fans were happy that they showed up in a spin-off game, then they were happy when they came back completely, and now they're in everything and the only thing they can still ask for is for Nintendo to make them Bowser's kids again. I'd love if the only request Sally fans had was that they want her to be a princess fighting dictator Dr. Robotnik out of Knothole Village on Planet Mobius. Because that'd mean they wanted SatAM's premise used again, rather than just anything from it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

8 hours ago, antyep said:

Since when was Kim royalty? I never seen that.

For a split moment, I was gonna slap the absolute fuck out of you for this comment.

XD

Regarding bringing back the Freedom Fighters, I’ve always said they should keep the spirit of the characters at all times. Just like Sonic is a cocky, smart-mouthed speedster, Knuckles is a stubborn, gullible fighter, Tails a kid genius, and Shadow a powerful anti-hero across many spectrums of medias, it’s not that difficult for them to keep Sally’s leadership skills, Antoine’s cowardly lion tendencies, Rotor’s inventiveness, or Bunnies cybernetics—heck, the reboot in Archie changed Rotor more drastically than he ever was where he had an abusive father that rolled over and accepted the rule of Eggman while his son continued the fight, and I actually like that version of Rotor a lot more than I expected compared to the pre-reboot.
 

As a further side note that I’ve repeated many times, I never wanted the reboot to begin with!

Also, just as the spirit of the character is important, their visual appearance is important too—regardless of changes, we should still recognize the characters in how they look. For that reason, I think their rebooted appearances did a good job maintaining that.

[Red Hot Jack]

I'm so late on this but I want to give my 2 cents on the hot topic.

The Koopalings are a lot of characters, I admit that if you are adding all of them as playable it does take a lot of spots, but still, they do have a place in mainline 2D games, they are main bosses and antagonists, recurring too. Plus they were brought back after having debuted in a main game. 

Meanwhile, the Freedom Fighters are reeeeeally from an old and niche continuity, but they do have fans that want them back, however I still stand by my opinion: they were from a version of Sonic that's really outdated and done. I do think the Freedom Fighters are done, just let them rest in peace. Besides, if they were to be back, I don't think they would work or fit in a Sonic game, not even with hard restyling and rebooting, simply because they are meant to be protagonists, I know I say this a lot but it's the truth, Sally was created to be a lead female and main love interest to Sonic, the main hero, would fans of hers really be happy if she returned as a minor NPC? Similar to Pauline in Odyssey maybe.

Really I want to ask: would you fans of Sally be happy if she returned just as a cameo? I guess it's better than nothing, but I have never seen the Freedom Fighters in minor roles, even in the Archie reboot which was basically based off the games, you still had Sally and all the Freedom Fighters in a main central role, Ian spent the whole first arc by reintroducing them, they do take a lot of screentime.

If Sally returned in a main role, what would happen to Amy? I love Amy and I don't want to see her threatened by another main female role, I know it's petty, I do have my favorites, I'm not flawless. I admit that.

I don't think her or the others returning would make anyone really happy. 

I really don't know why fans can't let go and accept that these characters are finished, done. It was hard for me to accept that my adorable Sticks was done but she is, Boom is dead and so is Sticks. But I did, I let her go.

I also don't know why Sticks can be forgotten (although people also want her back), and Sally can't. If they bring back your favorite, I also want mine to be honest. Yeah.

Also, I've seen a lot of people depict Ian Flynn as the devils incarnate... even though he is still fighting for Sally and the FFs (as well as Sticks and others) to be brought back.

[Zaysho]

8 hours ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

Besides, if they were to be back, I don't think they would work or fit in a Sonic game, not even with hard restyling and rebooting, simply because they are meant to be protagonists, I know I say this a lot but it's the truth, Sally was created to be a lead female and main love interest to Sonic, the main hero, would fans of hers really be happy if she returned as a minor NPC? Similar to Pauline in Odyssey maybe.

Sally and company literally do not have to be main protagonists any more than Shadow or Blaze have to. They're supporting characters. This isn't a difficult idea but every time this topic gets broached it's always some worst case scenario where everything about the old versions must inform the new ones in a completely different continuity and therefore are just too hard to explain or incorporate.
 

Because princess of a furry kingdom being threatened by Eggman Sonic helps out for a game is just too weird for this series I guess.

There I've just written the elevator pitch to explain the character if put in a game. And that's a step beyond the original intention of just wanting her in a mobile game where everyone plays the same.

8 hours ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

If Sally returned in a main role, what would happen to Amy? I love Amy and I don't want to see her threatened by another main female role, I know it's petty, I do have my favorites, I'm not flawless. I admit that.

 

Was Blaze a threat to Amy too because she had a starring, playable role in two handheld games?

8 hours ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

I also don't know why Sticks can be forgotten (although people also want her back), and Sally can't. If they bring back your favorite, I also want mine to be honest. Yeah.

I'm sorry a topic about a specific character is not also covering your favorite character that literally no one is telling you you can't have. And that's even considering I joked about the character and clarified I don't care if she came back but is at the back of the line. When there's a movement for Sticks nobody is going to stop you from gushing about her.

[StaticMania]

7 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Was Blaze a threat to Amy too because she had a starring, playable role in two handheld games?

When ya think about it, the basically cover the same role.

Potential: 0%

[Celestia]

The only one "meant" to be a protagonist is Sally and that wouldn't be difficult to implement in her first appearance versus later appearances. Like most characters that are introduced in Sonic are more important when they first appear than a few games later, even before the current era of the supporting cast having even less screen time / importance.

Sally being (correctly) considered a main protagonist for the most part is, I imagine, half the reason people who hate her feel very strongly about it. So I kinda get it, even though I don't think it would be a concern in the hypothetical scenario she ends up in the games. Reintroduced in the comics, maybe, but you'd have to ask whoever's writing them.

Also while it's not as prevalent anymore, the other half of the reason some feel so strongly negative about Sally is that they're Amy (or more accurately most of the time, SonAmy) fans. I assume the SonAmy factor is more of a thing with older fans since that's who I still see it from (lmao), but yeah.

9 hours ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

If Sally returned in a main role, what would happen to Amy? I love Amy and I don't want to see her threatened by another main female role, I know it's petty, I do have my favorites, I'm not flawless. I admit that.

Probably the same thing that happened in the comics, which managed to still feature Amy consistently in it's last like, decade. The only things they have in common are "girl" and "Sonic's love interest," and the latter isn't even true in Sally's case anymore. Stop pitting queens against each other