Rally 4 Sally

[KoDaiko]

2 hours ago, A Random Villager said:

Speaking of using characters though, if Sally were to get in, how would they be able to interpret her. Would they do her as she appeared in the cartoon only, or would they be allowed to show bits and pieces of her growth in the comics? For better or worse, a lot happened in the comics that turned her into the character we know today.

We can discuss the "could" and "should", but in the end that would completely depend on Sega of Japan. I posted this earlier, but Ian's word implied they'll have to base them off the Satam version with possible recycling from Archie.

Copied from my rough transcript of the Bumblekast posted above (note: he is talking about bringing them to the IDW comics):

• Sally is easy [to interpret/give a purpose]: as a strong independent leader type character. Don't get a lot of those in Sonic.
• (In talking about Antoine) Archie book did built a lot off from that but that doesn't count anymore, that's off the table, Archie is gone.
• Everything would have to be taken into account: what's usable from the old cartoon, what can't be used need to be updated, what's off limit from Archie-if all or some is.

Depends on what specific "growths" we are talking about in the comics too. She could simply go through similar development by different means, or have it as part of her pre-existing traits.

[E-122-Psi]

I truthfully don't think the comics did a great job altering Sally anyway, things around her changed and her role was moved around, but if anything they struggled with her actual personality growth, I actually thought she got blander.

Again, it felt like the writers thought her straight man shtick worked fine, other characters had personality issues to work out, she was the sane man, but they didn't know how to flesh that out for the purpose of a dynamic co-lead, which I think led to the complaints about her not being flawed enough or situations and characters changing according to her and seldom vice versa. This is likely what also encouraged Penders and Bollers to demote her (when killing her off was out of the question anyway :P), her personality was better designed to be a supporting character anyway, just their way about it was infamously poorly handled.

I reckon Ian thought he could solve this with some token self contained moments she was wrong about something and 'not a Mary Sue', but these moments still didn't play into actual character growth or introspective most of the time, I don't really feel they made Sally more fleshed out and challenged as a flawed character, if anything they made her inconsistent, I feel like if fans hadn't complained so much he would have been fine just depicting her how Hurst and early-Penders had in the first place.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

We can discuss the "could" and "should", but in the end that would completely depend on Sega of Japan. I posted this earlier, but Ian's word implied they'll have to base them off the Satam version with possible recycling from Archie.

Copied from my rough transcript of the Bumblekast posted above (note: he is talking about bringing them to the IDW comics):

• Sally is easy [to interpret/give a purpose]: as a strong independent leader type character. Don't get a lot of those in Sonic.
• (In talking about Antoine) Archie book did built a lot off from that but that doesn't count anymore, that's off the table, Archie is gone.
• Everything would have to be taken into account: what's usable from the old cartoon, what can't be used need to be updated, what's off limit from Archie-if all or some is.

Depends on what specific "growths" we are talking about in the comics too. She could simply go through similar development by different means, or have it as part of her pre-existing traits.

Good points on the growth. They can simply be part of her backstory now. I still don't understand why some things can't be used, though I'm guessing it's to do with legal jargen that'll go over my head!. XD *sigh* A pity, but if dropping a few stuff means they can come back, it should be worth it right?

Antoine would have to start from the beginning it seems; have to find his courage all over again. (Can't say I envy him that  ) Bunnie could already start being able to use her mechanical limbs to fight, but how she got like that would have to change. I wonder how they'd do it? Personally, I'd go with the good ol' "It was Eggman!" route, though they could try the accident route again, like they did with the Archie reboot. Rotor, on account that Tails is the tech guy now, would have to find a new role to fill. Perhaps be the heavy hitter of the group?

The one I'm worrying about is Nicole. A lot of her character came from the comics, and not the cartoon. I seem to recall something about Ben hurst saying they were once a Mobian, but got digitized for one reason or another, by Robotnik or someone. Apparently they thought it too dark for back then.  I could be very wrong about this though, as I'm going off memory. Even still perhaps they could bring this back, and through time help her get her old body back again?

[E-122-Psi]

I think the one issue with Eggman robotocising Bunnie is that she would likely be permanently in her iconic robot form, and it would be harder to go back to the semi-likeable Eggman of some games after he's mutilated a key character. (We know games Eggman can be a nasty piece of work, but he hasn't QUITE crossed that moral event horizon territory that SatAm and Archie Robotnik do recurrently).

This is another important detail with the Freedom Fighters, how much of their dynamic involves altering how the games universe works, which is a very different beast from SatAm in many areas.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think the one issue with Eggman robotocising Bunnie is that she would likely be permanently in her iconic robot form, and it would be harder to go back to the semi-likeable Eggman of some games after he's mutilated someone. 

Eggman killed Whisper's friends. 

[E-122-Psi]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Eggman killed Whisper's friends. 

Yeah, I will admit I severely overlooked that. That would hopefully be altered in some way if Whisper became a mainstay outright. (Without dumbing down her character depth too badly of course.)

[Guest]

Hmm, good points. How could we solve this dillema. Hmm... maybe Bunnie could have fighting the freedom fight, when a robot either injured her severely by attacking, or by exploding too close to her. This led to her having to have her limbs replaced in order to save her life. This way, it was still technically Eggman who caused her to be the way she is, but it technically wasn't him who did it to her directly. A casualty of battle against the eggman tyranny.

As with Whisper's back story, they could simply lay all the blame on Mimic should she come to the games. Either way though, Eggman's certainly guilty of some nasty stuff. Like it or no, I doubt the resistance in Sonic Forces won the day without casualties...

[Wraith]

9 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah, I will admit I severely overlooked that. That would hopefully be altered in some way if Whisper became a mainstay outright. (Without dumbing down her character depth too badly of course.)

Even in the context of the game's canon it's hardly his first crime. Juat because eggman tells funny jokes sometimes doesn't mean we or the cast are meant to like him. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Even in the context of the game's canon it's hardly his first crime. Juat because eggman tells funny jokes sometimes doesn't mean we or the cast are meant to like him. 

Very true. I still wonder how blowing up half the moon messed things up with the ocean. Doesn't the Moon affect the tides or something? Hope there weren't floods. Heck maybe that's how we got some of the future water levels!

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, A Random Villager said:

Very true. I still wonder how blowing up half the moon messed things up with the ocean. Doesn't the Moon affect the tides or something? Hope there weren't floods. Heck maybe that's how we got some of the future water levels!

I like to stick to consequences that we can see. Even then though Eggman has done tangible damage to the world. Bunnie would be different  in that the consequences would be more permanent than most of what we've but if the end result was empowerment and acceptance I think you can change it into a more positive thing consistent with the series's uplifting tone. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I like to stick to consequences that we can see. Even then though Eggman has done tangible damage to the world. Bunnie would be different  in that the consequences would be more permanent than most of what we've but if the end result was empowerment and acceptance I think you can change it into a more positive thing consistent with the series's uplifting tone. 

That would be a good spin on things. Bunnie overcoming her grief fear, and bravely facing what lies ahead, accepting the changes in her life and pressing on, one step at a time. I think think that would be a pretty cool message to send!

[Wraith]

I feel like Sally and Bunnie kinda write themselves and if I was drafting the story they would probably be the characters I focused the most on. Rotor I would probably put in the backgruond as a support character but I don't think that's a bad thing. Antoine is the only one I'm really struggling with since I didn't find him really compelling in any iteration that I've seen. I imagined Sally would have him as a more traditionalist voice on her shoulder to contrast with Sonic's devil may care tactics which causes friction between the two when she decides to lean toward one or the other. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I feel like Sally and Bunnie kinda write themselves and if I was drafting the story they would probably be the characters I focused the most on. Rotor I would probably put in the backgruond as a support character but I don't think that's a bad thing. Antoine is the only one I'm really struggling with since I didn't find him really compelling in any iteration that I've seen. I imagined Sally would have him as a more traditionalist voice on her shoulder to contrast with Sonic's devil may care tactics which causes friction between the two when she decides to lean toward one or the other. 

That sounds like a good idea.

Hmm, also for Antoine's growth, maybe it could be a 'find your strength' sort of story. He could feel like he was pulling everyone down, and wanted to give up the fight, but then that small part of him, deep inside, would be like, "Non you fuel! You must carry on ze good fight! You cannot stop 'ere! 'Twould be ze coward's way out! What would ze dear princess sink of you?! Non, I must be brave! I will sink of something! I must!" (sorry for the bad Antoine impression, or am I? XD)

Anyway, something could happen that would make him think like this, and he would start to wonder what it was that he could do. After a lot of soul searching, he could find his answer, and start anew as a freedom fighter. Sure it would be a slow start, but eventually he would begin to find his courage, and start to really help out the group in his own derpy way. Whether this being him somehow winning the day while in a battle craze swinging his sword around like a madman (if he would/could have one that is? I don't think there would be a problem with that personally, but who knows?) or simply with sheer dumb luck and determination, he would find his place amongst his fellow freedom fighters.

Well, maybe anyway. XD

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Eggman just got through unleashing a literal world-ending (yes - as confirmed by Silver) virus onto the planet, and when all chips was down, when they were at their last moments, he still took the chance to backstab people attempting to save him to buy himself precious seconds to run.

Bunnie being roboticised is incredibly small apples compared to that, or hell - even killing Whisper's friends.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Eggman just got through unleashing a literal world-ending (yes - as confirmed by Silver) virus onto the planet, and when all chips was down, when they were at their last moments, he still took the chance to backstab people attempting to save him to buy himself precious seconds to run.

Bunnie being roboticised is incredibly small apples compared to that, or hell - even killing Whisper's friends.

When you put it that way... XD Yikes Eggman really is just a big eggy jerk isn't he?

I guess the problem is with the games? Eggman, while still a rotten egg, seems a little more... tamer there? Maybe? I don't know. As you said though, in the comics Eggman has done some nasty things, so having Bunnie be partly roboticised by him wouldn't be out of character for him there.

[Emerald Chaos]

Y'know I think Eggman doing permanent damage to a main cast member would probably be a "good" thing for his presentation as a villain, since it would serve as a reminder that he IS a villain and a threat.

My general thoughts on *if* Sally is ever going to get into the games... is that it's pretty unlikely. It's a miracle that the FF managed to survive this long into the franchise's lifetime and I think some of the people demanding their return don't really have perspective on that and see their inclusion as an ought rather than the outlier it is.
*Should* she get into the games? Eeeeeh. I'm not against it personally. Some big changes would have to be made to them obviously. If you ask me I'd maybe have the FF as a lower key counterpart to the larger than life exploits of the main characters considering their relative lack of exaggerated abilities. I'm personally of the opinion that the more details you can add to a universe and the more characters there are independent of the central cast, the more lively the world becomes. If Sally and her group are a bunch of ragtag fellows that Sonic happens upon randomly and helps out, whether they're defending their home for Eggman, travelling or whatever kind of context that's fine. But I would expect their appearances to be fairly sporadic even if they had maybe one game where they're central to the plot to introduce them. 
I wouldn't be particularly interested in them being playable outside of small things like mobile games or maybe racing game spinoffs or whatever. But they're pretty clearly not designed with the intent of being integrated into the formula for how Sonic plays and I'd rather things not lose focus in that regard. So in that sense I guess I see them as kind of superfluous. Outside of adding some extra life to the world, I don't really see them adding anything I'd like to see in the games from a gameplay standpoint.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Emerald Chaos said:

Y'know I think Eggman doing permanent damage to a main cast member would probably be a "good" thing for his presentation as a villain, since it would serve as a reminder that he IS a villain and a threat.

My general thoughts on *if* Sally is ever going to get into the games... is that it's pretty unlikely. It's a miracle that the FF managed to survive this long into the franchise's lifetime and I think some of the people demanding their return don't really have perspective on that and see their inclusion as an ought rather than the outlier it is.
*Should* she get into the games? Eeeeeh. I'm not against it personally. Some big changes would have to be made to them obviously. If you ask me I'd maybe have the FF as a lower key counterpart to the larger than life exploits of the main characters considering their relative lack of exaggerated abilities. I'm personally of the opinion that the more details you can add to a universe and the more characters there are independent of the central cast, the more lively the world becomes. If Sally and her group are a bunch of ragtag fellows that Sonic happens upon randomly and helps out, whether they're defending their home for Eggman, travelling or whatever kind of context that's fine. But I would expect their appearances to be fairly sporadic even if they had maybe one game where they're central to the plot to introduce them. 
I wouldn't be particularly interested in them being playable outside of small things like mobile games or maybe racing game spinoffs or whatever. But they're pretty clearly not designed with the intent of being integrated into the formula for how Sonic plays and I'd rather things not lose focus in that regard. So in that sense I guess I see them as kind of superfluous. Outside of adding some extra life to the world, I don't really see them adding anything I'd like to see in the games from a gameplay standpoint.

That sounds fine to me. No need for them to appear all the time when they're not needed in the story. Just a ragtag group of freedom fighters fighting the good fight! 

As for playability, this is where my opinion differs slightly. Personally, I'm all for different play styles, as long as they can seemlessly fit in, like with Sonic 3 and knuckles, with the main cast there. Fly, climb, batter, spin, shoot. It could fit in quite easily if done properly. Personally, I think that a different approach could help here too. Yes, for the first time they would appear in a mainstream game, introduce new comers and the like, but maybe after that spin-off titles could work, like the old Game gear games, with Tails adventure, and the like. Maybe have some sort of RPG like game with Sonic and the freedom fighters, similar in style to that chronicles game? I don't know, all I know is I want spin off games. That way they can keep the mainline games the way they are, with being fast-paced 3d platformers, but they could experiment with different game styles with the other characters they have, like a shinobi-style Espio game or something... I don't know, I just feel that spin-off titles could help here XD

[Wraith]

Yeah I imagined this would be kind of a one of thing unless they proved to be especially popular. It would be cool to have a Sonic "trilogy" that focused on the same characters/place for an extended period of time but I don't really mind if they want to start fresh next time and add them to the recurring/spinoff cast either. 

[KoDaiko]

1 hour ago, A Random Villager said:

Good points on the growth. They can simply be part of her backstory now. I still don't understand why some things can't be used, though I'm guessing it's to do with legal jargen that'll go over my head!. XD *sigh* A pity, but if dropping a few stuff means they can come back, it should be worth it right?

[...]

The one I'm worrying about is Nicole. A lot of her character came from the comics, and not the cartoon. I seem to recall something about Ben hurst saying they were once a Mobian, but got digitized for one reason or another, by Robotnik or someone. Apparently they thought it too dark for back then.  I could be very wrong about this though, as I'm going off memory. Even still perhaps they could bring this back, and through time help her get her old body back again?

I'm guessing some has to do with the fact Satam was made waaaaay back when Sonic didn't have that much lore.  They're basically separate continuities, similar to Boom or the Movies. There's probably many concepts that wouldn't fit with Sega's vision/direction of modern Sonic.

For Nicole...according to the wiki, Ben's original plan of her was a child genius digitized (leaving her organic body dead) into a computer with god-like powers by Julien & Robotnik who, after realizing she will 100% create a dystopia, did a bunch of stuff to seal her memory & alter herself into a tiny handheld machine. She somehow eventually regains her formal self.

Idk why they should bring it back, that's a bunch of confusing & risky concepts they need to explore and sort out with Sega. I'm personally not fond of the mobian avatar direction in Archie either (how do solid holograms work???), kinda want them to emphasize the machine/AI angle. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

I'm guessing some has to do with the fact Satam was made waaaaay back when Sonic didn't have that much lore.  They're basically separate continuities, similar to Boom or the Movies. There's probably many concepts that wouldn't fit with Sega's vision/direction of modern Sonic.

For Nicole...according to the wiki, Ben's original plan of her was a child genius digitized (leaving her organic body dead) into a computer with god-like powers by Julien & Robotnik who, after realizing she will 100% create a dystopia, did a bunch of stuff to seal her memory & alter herself into a tiny handheld machine. She somehow eventually regains her formal self.

Idk why they should bring it back, that's a bunch of confusing & risky concepts they need to explore and sort out with Sega. I'm personally not fond of the mobian avatar direction in Archie either (how do solid holograms work???), kinda want them to emphasize the machine/AI angle. 

Really? I kinda liked the whole becoming more human (mobian?) story. However, I do see your point. Hmm, well, I can think of a couple of scenarios going about this. Here's two of them. I hope you're ready for a looong read! XD

Number One: 'Nicole, like in the original idea, was once a mobian, like Sally and company. At some point in her life however, perhaps by Eggman experimenting with placing consciousness within machines, she was kidnapped, stripped of her body, and placed within a machine,

Spoiler

kinda like Glados in Portal.

Anyway, this time however, unlike the original idea, she automatically loses all memories, a side effect of the conversion process, leading to Eggman axing the project, and locking away the now machine Nicole along with his other failed experiments and robots. What use is transfering consciousness if you forget everything? No super thinking robots for him... Time passes, and within the dark cold vault, Nicole starts to dream (of electric sheep? XD) She sees things that "do not compute". Fuzzy images, of things long forgotten. They seem to be memories of sort. Memories of another life. Of her life, though she does not know it. This confuses her, and causes her to question what she is. If she is a machine, then why does she have these visions? Visions of being truly alive...

Time goes on, and Nicole is starting to run out of power. After contemplating what these "glitches" could be, Nicole finally makes ready to shut down for good. Suddenly, the vault opens, and a stranger comes in. It's Sally and the freedom fighters. Sally orders the troop to grab what they can and run, when she notices a little computer device sitting alone on a dusty shelf. Sally picks it up and looks at the name printed on it. "NICOLE" This is how they met. Sally takes her away from the dark vault, and into the light of day. From here on, Nicole would be very helpful in helping planning fights and finding targets for the freedom fighters to deal with. She feels useful. Eventually though, the "glitches" start to appear again. This time however, they are very clear. She see herself as a mobian, playing in a field of flowers. She see a mother smiling gently at her as she gives her a flower crown.

...She sees herself being walked down a long, dark corridor, robots holding her arms. She sees a great machine pointed at her, and a egg-shaped figure smiling grimly. A flash of light, a surge of pain, then nothing but darkness...

Even more stressed and more confused than ever before, She decides to take action. Truly wanting to find out about her past, she begs Sally to look into their history, and how they were made. She does so, and together they look into it. After much research, they eventually find the answer, much to both their surprise and shock! Nicole was indeed once alive and well. Were she still a mobian, she would be around Sally's age. Nicole takes the news quite hard... She is confused. Hurting. She was a mobian? But how? How could this be? She is a machine. Wasn't she? Such thoughts began to be drowned out however. Instead they are replaced with feelings of longing. To be a mobian again. To feel the warmth of the sun on her skin. To feel the gentle breeze on her face. She wanted to live again! At this point, Sally makes a promise to her. That somehow, someway, they would get her body back. She wasn't sure when, she wasn't sure HOW, but somehow she would find a way. Find a way for Nicole to be mobian again! Nicole was truly moved by the kindness Sally was showing her. Such a thing could take years, or even lifetimes. It might not even work at all, yet here this little princess was, making this promise. Nicole then makes a promise to Sally in return. That no matter what happens, whether she remains a computer, or manages to get her body back, she would stay at her side. Always.'

I like this way, as it shows from the get go, that Sally and Nicole have a strong friendship. Also it opens the door to potentially become a full-blooded mobian at some point.

 

 

Number two: 'Nicole is and has always been a machine. being created to help the princess fight the good fight. Time passes as she helps the freedom fighters do their duty. One day however, Sally said something. Something that would change Nicole to the core. The freedom fighters are cornered by robots, and there is no way out to be seen. Sally asks Nicole what they can do in this situation. Nicole, being the cold, calculating computer she is at the time, suggests the following:

"There is a vent hidden to the left of these crates. Use it to flee the area." Sally asks if the others, who were on the other side of the corridor, would be able to get to it. Nicole states that they would not. Sally then answers back. 

"I'm not going then. I'm not leaving them behind!". Nicole is confused. By going through the vent, Sally would ensure her own survival. Why then would she stay here to die with the others? It didn't make sense. It was illogical!

"I suggest you go through the vent Princess." Nicole calmly states.

"NO. I'm not leaving them. I won't!

"By going through the vent, you will survive."

"I SAID NO! I led them here, and I'm gonna stick with them to the end if I have to!"

Nicole truly is confused here. Sally is practically committing suicide! But why? Nicole proceeds to ask why. Sally answers. That no matter how tough things have gotten, no matter how hopeless, they have ALWAYS stuck together. For better for worse. Because that's what friends do! They look out for each other. Nicole ponders. Friends? For better or worse? Such illogical thinking makes her circuits start to fry. But in the end, she understands that Sally will not leave. She instead asks what else she could do to help. Sally asks if there's anything they can use as a distraction. Nicole scans the area as the robots are getting slowly closer, and spys industrial pipes lining the walls of the factory they're in. Nicole suggests they could burst the pipes, releasing a smokescreen. This should give them time to escape, while the robots are blinded. Sally listens, and together with the others, manage to break one of the pipes. The smoke was released, and the robots are temporarily blinded. While the robots are feeling their way forward, they are able to escape. 

That night, Nicole asks Sally again why she wouldn't leave the others. Sally responds:

"I couldn't leave them. They're my friends."

"Friends?" Nicole asks puzzled.

Sally then goes onto explain what friendship and love is, and how they bind people together. Friends are always there when you need them. They'll help lift you up if you fall. They'll share in all the joys, sorrows, laughter. This is what a friend is. As Sally leaves Nicole on her desk and goes to bed, Nicole begins to think. To be needed. To be a friend. It was so illogical... and yet... some small part of her, for some reason, couldn't let go of the topic. She wanted to know what is was like. What was it like to be loved and cared for? To be a friend? She wanted to know...'

This one could have Nicole act as a sort of foil to Metal Sonic. Both are robots, but as Metal goes towards violence to feel something, to feel unique, Nicole would want to be able to feel emotions. Joy, sorrow, anger, forgiveness. She would eventually learn to be more human (mobian) as time went on. (whether using a mobian form or not doesn't really matter with this path. Not at the beginning anyway.)

Edited September 2, 2020 by A Random Villager
Clearing up some stuff

[E-122-Psi]

2 hours ago, A Random Villager said:

When you put it that way... XD Yikes Eggman really is just a big eggy jerk isn't he?

I guess the problem is with the games? Eggman, while still a rotten egg, seems a little more... tamer there? Maybe? I don't know. As you said though, in the comics Eggman has done some nasty things, so having Bunnie be partly roboticised by him wouldn't be out of character for him there.

I guess it's that games Eggman is sort of within that rank of villainy where you know he's evil and capable of horrible things but he has this sort of offsetting cartoony 'pantomine villain' antics about him, while a lot of Archie and SatAm Robotnik's villainy tends to have more of a shock value extent to it, like pure horror at how vile he is.

I think at the very least the whole SatAm backstory with NICOLE is a no-go. Even in writing it just sounded WAY too disturbing, even in the same universe as robotocization. I prefer the idea of NICOLE being an AI that slowly became sapient, rather than the other way around.

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

I feel like Sally and Bunnie kinda write themselves and if I was drafting the story they would probably be the characters I focused the most on. Rotor I would probably put in the backgruond as a support character but I don't think that's a bad thing. Antoine is the only one I'm really struggling with since I didn't find him really compelling in any iteration that I've seen. I imagined Sally would have him as a more traditionalist voice on her shoulder to contrast with Sonic's devil may care tactics which causes friction between the two when she decides to lean toward one or the other. 

I always took interest in the fact that, despite being the 'straight man' and strategist, Sally ALWAYS let Antoine come, sometimes over more capable fighters like Bunnie. I dunno whether it was just pity, denial he was useless, or maybe just to put Sonic in his place. Antoine did seem to stroke Sally's ego a lot more than Sonic I guess, besides his cowardly moments, he was FAR more liable to do as she said or at least TRY.

Again I always feel like they should have explored Sally's hubris a lot more since it seemed to play a lot more into her decisions than the narrative liked to imply, and prevented them connecting dots with her personality.

[Kuzu]

The video games don't focus on Eggman's actions because that's not their focus. The comics just pull the wool from over your eyes and establish that yes, Eggman is a horrible , horrible person no matter how much he makes you laugh.

[thumbs13]

Honestly, the difference is just that the comics are a continuing story and the games are not. Since the comic has to show the aftermath of an Eggman scheme, it can't just have Tails say all's well that ends well at the end and move on. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The games have shown Eggman blowing up the moon, attempting and failing to nuke a city, launch an unprovoked attack on Soleanna, and literally blow up the world while laughing about it.

He’s horrible regardless of whether he makes you laugh.

[E-122-Psi]

While I agree certainly that Eggman in the games isn't a 'fluffy' villain (well most of the time, some spin offs make him a petty bungler) I guess I mean that they don't straight up play him for horror like they do in SatAm and the comics. We get terrible reminders his actions are wretched to establish him as a threat but he's not just 'Evil Mc Evil face' at every turn (eg. Colours plays him comically but as things go on we do see the unpleasant side effects of his plans like his draining of the Wisps).

I think it's also the fact that Eggman is played as much destructive because he doesn't think his plans all the way through, his schemes routinely blow up on him because he can't control them properly. CD's bad future isn't just dark because Eggman's robotocized it, it's dark because it's derelict and broken down. If anything it's a 'reality ensues' of someone so arrogant and carelessly self indulgent as the doctor finally getting to be overlord (I still question whether SatAm Robotnik was really competent enough to keep rule over the world for over a decade and Archie Robotnik DEFINITELY wasn't, Underground Robotnik was perhaps the most believable due to the shrewder approach he took).

This I suppose makes games Eggman a more realistic villain because he's dangerous as much for inadvertent human flaws than just being a psychotic mastermind, maybe something that links even more into the whole 'nature vs industry' theme. He represents all the selfish and destructive aspects of human kind, destroying the very planet he breathes on just to indulge himself and his ego, never realising the consequences until it's too late. In hindsight it's a shame they didn't do more with this in Forces, showing his rule sort of taking its toll and falling apart at the seems, making it even more of a race against the clock for the heroes.