Rally 4 Sally

[Natie]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So...you don't have any firsthand experience with said toxicity and just believing secondhand information that you heard from people already predisposed to disliking Sally fans then?

Im shaky on the ethics of you just claiming the people on this thread that said the project was being pushed poorly are simply lying cuz they hate sally fans. Nobody's out to get you, bro... <:/

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

People will have an inherent bias towards what they were first exposed to; the reason so many fans are predisposed to stuff like the cartoons is because it's not their preferred version and don't like the idea of it intruding on the stuff they like. 

Nah man, I never knew about all that lore till i was in my 20s, and I like it best. It's really not fair to just throw "nostalgia blind" at anyone who likes something else, we didnt even have a way yo grow up on that cannon unless we're japanese.

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well you want the FFs in because they're what YOU DO like.

I don't actually care either way. 

7 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

OF COURSE it's subjective. I mean, surely you have things from the other parts of the franchise you don't want to EVER touch the official games. Do you think it would be unfair and close minded for you to be vocal about that if someone pushed and petitioned to stick it in?

A mature and rational ADULT would be willing to compromise on certain things to reach a conclusion that satisfies both parties. You're being neither mature or rational right now. 

7 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Just because you have the more positive outlook doesn't mean you have the more FAIR one since you still want to enforce elements of the franchise others don't necessarily want. The Freedom Fighters are INCREDIBLY divisive characters.

So I'm being unfair for having an open-mind and not being willing to shut out something, just because it's not my preference. 

This is actually bordering on comical the amount of mental gymnastics you're trying to jump through to justify your stance. 

7 minutes ago, Natie said:

Im shaky on the ethics of you just claiming the people on this thread that said the project was being pushed poorly are simply lying cuz they hate sally fans. Nobody's out to get you, bro... <:/

I wasn't referring to anyone in this thread...I thought we were talking about the people you were accusing on Twitter. 

7 minutes ago, Natie said:

Nah man, I never knew about all that lore till i was in my 20s, and I like it best. It's really not fair to just throw "nostalgia blind" at anyone who likes something else, we didnt even have a way yo grow up on that cannon unless we're japanese.

The point still stands; what you were exposed to first is what you prefer. 

[Wraith]

22 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

So is streamlining Archie canon into just "Eggman took over a kingdom". Archie continuity is a complete clusterfuck and even Satam requires some amount of detail and lore establishment, again, for almost half a dozen characters. This is not asking for something very basic, especially given the games reputation for story writing.

I don't know what to tell you except that I think it is very basic. Eggman takes over the kingdom of Acorn, which has it's own history that the games can choose to delve into. . This history would be different from the comics by necessity but they can choose how much they take from it and how much they make up on their own. Eggman is usually after some kind of weapon or power source in the games so you can pull from the comics there or make up something new

The core of the character is simple. A level headed but young and inexperienced monarch feels a great obligation to make things right for her people/family and has to team up with a personality that she doesn't gel with to do so. That's not just simple, it's been done in these games before. To great acclaim. 


The rest of them are her crew.  A lot this is based on the idea that every FF needs their own campaign or something when that's not really the case. You can choose to what degree you dig into their history but preserving their personalities and dynamics would be easy and that's the actual important part. Some of them would get more shine than others but, again, that's literally always been the case with any extended cast in anything. 

I'm guessing one of the elephants in the room that you keep hinting at but never elaborate on is Robotization, and I wouldn't actually mind if they introduced it for a game and dropped it. There are ways to make it look like a natural fit for the Sega characters: 

and perhaps Eggman doesn't keep it because the effects aren't what he'd like them to be. Uncle Chuck was able to regain some free will in the American canon, so who's to say a game couldn't take that concept and run with it? What if Sonic was introduced to a group of bots he couldn't just smash through in conscience? What if appealing to their personal relationships had to be the goal? If this worked, Eggman would probably end up dropping it and going back to his old tactics. 

There's my pitch. Like it or not, it proves it can be done. Maybe they don't get this right, but you can say that for anything anyone suggests so it feels like a moot point. 

[Natie]

18 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The point still stands; what you were exposed to first is what you prefer. 

I'm not sure how since you used that point for someone talking about people preferring japanese game cannon, something no western kid could have been exposed to first. Well, maybe unless you mean the content inside the game itself doing the trick, but even then i believed all that stuff was the american cannon as a kid. Tho I also watched the OVA as a kid along with the other cartoons so maybe that had a hand in me eventually liking segasonic more than all the others when i grew up. *shrug* i just think the nostalgia shutdown is a bit callous.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Natie said:

I'm not sure how since you used that point for someone talking about people preferring japanese game cannon, something no western kid could have been exposed to first. Well, maybe unless you mean the content inside the game itself doing the trick, but even then i believed all that stuff was the american cannon as a kid. Tho I also watched the OVA as a kid along with the other cartoons so maybe that had a hand in me eventually liking segasonic more that all the others when i grew up.

The idea is that; if you were someone who grew up with SATAM as your first ever exposure to Sonic, THAT is the interpretation that colors your expectations for the series. To that person, Sonic was a resistance member part of a ragtag group and Sally was his love interest. So if you were to go to the games and expect that, obviously it would influence your opinion on them for lacking those elements. 

And vice versa; if Japanese Sonic was your first exposure in say, Sonic Adventure. Then Sonic is just a globe trotting adventurer who is not tied down to one specific place with no real love interest so to speak. And going back to SATAM would feel awkward for different it is from the Japanese canon.

 

You get it now?

[E-122-Psi]

31 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I don't actually care either way. 

A mature and rational ADULT would be willing to compromise on certain things to reach a conclusion that satisfies both parties. You're being neither mature or rational right now. 

So I'm being unfair for having an open-mind and not being willing to shut out something, just because it's not my preference. 

This is actually bordering on comical the amount of mental gymnastics you're trying to jump through to justify your stance. 

Insulting someone's intellect and maturity is not doing such either. You are not more open minded and logical just because you say 'yes' to everything and tell anyone who is skeptical to a new idea to shut up and that they're just an unsupportive complainy pants. You are still as much dismissing and antagonising anyone who doesn't have the same ideals as you. I debunked the idea but I never took it to the personal low of implying I was superior to you because of it and dismissing you as an irrational immature 'fake fan' like you just did to me just now.

Look I don't even HATE the Freedom Fighters outright, I just got frustrated as hell at the writers just not gathering what they needed to do to make them work and we already have that IN SPADES with the games. You're saying give them a chance? They had TWENTY YEARS of chances. Not to mention how many times the games tried to prove they could handle 'darker' stories, including one that outright adapted the basic SatAm premise.

The games need to figure out what core they're working from before they add more baggage.

 

[Tornado]

1 hour ago, Natie said:

The true cannon was established with the release of the very first game

No it wasn't. You should probably become more abreast of how much of a mess the series was before Sonic Team threw most of the stuff before Sonic Adventure out before you trot out these tired "The Official Sega of Japan True canon" arguments that people were already tired of when I joined this forum 17 years ago. SatAM was derived from concepts and ideas in SoA reference material that was created before the first game even released; and that material was just as official as anything else at the time was. It wasn't as closely related to them as other things that SoA was involved with for the franchise before SatAM/Archie released, but the derivation was still clear.

 

Sonic Team in comparison made 4 games, two of which were directly related with actual storylines shown in-game (but were released after SatAM started), one of which was mostly related to those two with a couple paragraphs of story, then another one that was barely related and had a story basically two sentences long. Ohshima went off by himself and made his own game with a fairly fleshed out story to arguably the same extent as the final two Sonic Team games of the era, but which had fuck all to do with what Naka was doing (and was contemporaneous with SatAM regardless). Sega of Japan also had nobody studios that since haven't been around for 25 years make half a dozen random Sonic games on top of that. There was no one true complex canon until Sonic Team went back and established one eight years after the very first game came out, for a game that was practically a reboot itself.

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We could discuss the validity of a character being added to a game without needing to caricature me as someone frothing at the mouth over the character

So you weren't the one who came in the thread talking about a fan effort to have them added to a shitty mobile game of all the innocuous things just to talk shit about the character and shit on the effort? You weren't the person so against the idea of them being added, even to a shitty mobile game of all the innocuous things, that you needed to label them as "generic 90's Don Bluth wannabe cast filler furries" to get your point across? You weren't the one who dismissed a 20+ year-long official sub-series because it was derived from "an american cartoon made by people none too interested in the source material" that basically amounted to ten fucking sentences printed in Japanese game manuals by 1993?

 

 

My mistake.

 

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah, but they'd still have to do so in a way that established all these characters individually and didn't make them feel like cardboard cutouts. The last time a game tried that with that many characters and succeeded was Sonic Adventure and even that is arguable.

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Sally being the straight man was a rather divisive element because as time passed it became more evident it was simplifying Sonic and co into foolish characters just to make Sally's shtick work and spinning Sonic's defining traits to often be wrong and misguided (not to mention making a straight man as a co-lead didn't always work great, leading to complaints Sally was too boring, a designated hero or a 'Mary Sue'). I could argue even Lost Worlds, despite its own problems, felt like a more even handed take on the cast being more complicated and flawed, since it wasn't just 'Sonic, listen to your sitcom wife, she's ALWAYS right.' Hell Sonic Boom shown how they just could refine on what Lost Worlds and make Tails a proper foil for Sonic in a way that makes both their negative and positive qualities shine (Tails' more methodical strategies were sometimes allowed to go wrong or straight up bungle, unlike Sally who had a much clear one sided hierarchy over Sonic, even when Ian was really going for the 'Look Sally was wrong for once' phase) not to mention do so in a more subtle way that doesn't make Tails feel too all encompassing in his chemistry to Sonic like Sally sometimes did.

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Not to say they couldn't just fix Sally perhaps, though why adapt another character that never landed the happy balance in 20 years when they could just refine an already promising main character in the games to do that role more smoothly and shrewdly?

This stuff sounds an awful lot like you treading back to "But Sonic Team could screw it up" as a reason why no one should want anything ever.

 

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Not really because Sally's leadership is much more of an actual personal drive to her character throughout both medias rather than a minor hidden depth mentioned in bios.

Those two things I listed were literally the entire reason that those two characters debuted in their respective games.

 

 

 

 

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But that sort of ties into my previous point. Why adapt a near completely retooled Princess Sally?

Because there's very little of her INTRINSIC, IMPORTANT LORE that was even in the comics post-reboot to begin with, so it's already been done once and people already liked those characters after it happened.

[Kuzu]

34 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 

I used to feel this way about the cartoons but at some point you gotta accept that it's all Sonic. If you're actually concerned about the state of the discourse playing gatekeeper and flooding peaceful threads with junk arguments is the worst thing you can do. 

It is what it is; when you have such a long running franchise with such varying ways to interacting with it, many people are going to be exposed to different versions of it. When you have so many versions of Sonic running around, people are inevitably going to make preferences. When that happens, people will of course, claim that their preferences are better than others. 

You are right though, because it's still all Sonic; it may be different versions of him, but the core is still fundamentally the same. There's no reason for anyone to claim their preferences are somehow superior or inferior to another because that just causes unnecessary division like this. It's actually really easy to compromise and make something to satisfy both parties, but not many people wanna do that because they are stubborn.

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Insulting someone's intellect and maturity is not doing such either. You are not more open minded and logical just because you say 'yes' to everything and tell anyone who is skeptical to a new idea to shut up and that they're just an unsupportive complainy pants. You are still as much dismissing and antagonising anyone who doesn't have the same ideals as you. I debunked the idea but I never took it to the personal low of implying I was superior to you because of it and dismissing you as an irrational immature 'fake fan' like you just did to me just now.

Look, sorry if I'm getting on your nerves, but you're honestly bringing all of this heat on yourself. I'm not the one who comes in thread after thread complaining about how things are and shooting down any idea that get thrown around because of my own personal biases. You literally never compromise on any of this, you just repeat the same things and hope that someone will agree with you and then just stay silent when someone actually finds a hole in your logic. 

It's a series about a fucking blue hedgehog, it's not life or death that you have to this obstinate about it, so there's no reason or justification you can give me that doesn't even let you CONSIDER the idea that these things can work. If that makes me an asshole, then I don't really care. I'm at least willing to accept that instead of sticking my feet in the sand and doubling down. 

A conversation is a two way street; I'm not just going to sit here and watch you rant and just blindly accept your words; if you actually want people to listen to you, then you actually need to be willing to COMPROMISE and maybe take a step back from your stance. I'm pretty sure your life won't be in danger from relenting on an issue about, and I can't stress this enough, a fictional, talking blue hedgehog. 

12 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Look I don't even HATE the Freedom Fighters outright, I just got frustrated as hell at the writers just not gathering what they needed to do to make them work and we already have that IN SPADES with the games. You're saying give them a chance? They had TWENTY YEARS of chances. Not to mention how many times the games tried to prove they could handle 'darker' stories, including one that outright adapted the basic SatAm premise.

The games need to figure out what core they're working from before they add more baggage.

 

 

Guess we should never wish for anything ever again I guess according to this logic. 

[Natie]

10 minutes ago, Tornado said:

No it wasn't. You should probably become more abreast of how much of a mess the series was before Sonic Team threw most of the stuff before Sonic Adventure out before you trot out these tired "The Official Sega of Japan True canon" arguments that people were already tired of when I joined this forum 17 years ago. SatAM was derived from concepts and ideas in SoA reference material that was created before the first game even released; and that material was just as official as anything else at the time was. It wasn't as closely related to them as other things that SoA was involved with for the series before SatAM/Archie released, but the derivation was still clear.

 

Sonic Team in comparison made 4 games, two of which were directly related with actual storylines shown in-game (but were released after SatAM started), one of which was mostly related to those two with a couple paragraphs of story, then another one that was barely related and had a story basically two sentences long. Ohshima went off by himself and made his own game with a fairly fleshed out story to arguably the same extent as the final two Sonic Team games of the era, but which had fuck all to do with what Naka was doing. Sega of Japan also had nobody studios that haven't been around for 25 years make half a dozen random games on top of that. There was no one true complex canon until Sonic Team went back and established one eight years after the very first game came out for a game that was practically a reboot itself.

I really don't see how it's invalid to consider the vision of the series' actual creators over western localization marketing tactics that change things out of fear of not connecting with the people of our culture. It's like saying I should believe MegaMan actually looks like a realistic pudgy many in spandex cuz that's what the box had. To say Japanese Sonic lore didnt exists until Adventure is just plain incorrect, Sega just decided they were tired of the divide by that point. Each classic game's JP manual is filled with more detail than it reasonably needs, they even had a whole story bible on their own just like the american version. I fail to see Adventure as a reboot as it's one of the only modern games to entirely build on things that were established before it, even with Naka explaining why they're with humans is simply because they just went over there. To deny all that just cause, what? People who prefer a Japanese consistency are annoying to you? That isn't really good form.

23 minutes ago, Tornado said:

So you weren't the one who came in the thread talking about a fan effort to have them added to a shitty mobile game of all the innocuous things just to talk shit about the character and shit on the effort? You weren't the person so against the idea of them being added, even to a shitty mobile game of all the innocuous things, that you needed to label them as "generic 90's Don Bluth wannabe cast filler furries" to get your point across? You weren't the one who dismissed a 20+ year-long official sub-series because it was derived from "an american cartoon made by people none too interested in the source material" that basically amounted to ten fucking sentences printed in Japanese game manuals by 1993?

 

 

My mistake.

I'm really gonna need you to cool your jets. 

The thread is about the desire and ambition for Sally to be added to a game. A thread in a forum is a place to discuss your opinions, both agreeing and not. Saying you don't agree with the desire and laying out your exact feelings towards the characters to explain why couldn't possibly be a more fitting response. The only other option is to just be excited about the project. I even specified at the beginning of my initial post that I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by thinking this way.

At that point, you seeing me as some kinda ruffian storming in here to shit on and demean an effort (which you've demeaned far more than me by calling it innocuous and meant for a "shitty game" 3 times verbatim) makes it look like you're merely having an exaggerated emotional response to me having a certain belief about a children's series.

I think you should have a little more respect towards different opinions, it isnt fair to paint some crazy picture of a person because you don't agree with them or their language was too brash or something.

I'd be more than glad to go back n' forth about why Sally is or isnt a good character in our opinions, but pointing fingers over the very nature of having a certain opinion or how you express it is just a waste of both of our time. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Natie said:

I grew up on satam and archie, yet i don't really like them now. I haven't grown up on Tangle and Whisper, but i think they're cool. So no, it really is just preference, at least on my part, and i believe it's the case for several others.

Good to know.

However, the same cannot be said for others who’ve used those exact excuses @antyep pointed out, and on this very forum more than once. So it not like this is something people made up.

However, listing names would cause obvious drama that is best avoided.

[Wildcat]

Well after reading through this topic I’m sure some will disagree with me but that’s ok.

First I love Sally. She’s my favorite female character in the Sonic franchise. Yes I grew up with SaTAM and have a bunch of the Archie comics (but lost track of it years ago). So I would absolutely love for her and the FF to be brought over to the games.

Their origins/lore is pretty elaborate because the comic went on so long but I DO AGREE that some kind of compromise could be made to translate them over. Like Wraith said...give them a basic introduction for their first game that barrows just enough from the comic and go from there. It’s pretty easy.

Maybe not that far fetched that they all met already and (at least) the cartoon took place in between somewhere. Probably some things that would need to be worked out. The first idea would be easier though.

Also mentioned is if/when they brought her over the design should definitely be the traditional one with the “Bambi” eyes. I suppose it’d be ok if they altered her a tiny bit but she already looks enough like a Sonic character to me. I understand Tangle and Whisper went though Sega first.

I know a lot of people think Sega will never use the FF again and that they do not care about them at all but I find that hard to believe. They have a fan base. I really doubt Sega would ignore them forever just because they’re “old and western-based”. Sonic himself was created with the western culture in mind.

Plus correct me if I’m wrong...Sega DOES own the rights to these characters. They were made for Sega and the Sonic franchise. I’m sure they can use them any time. The Ken Penders thing is a separate issue from what I understand. 

Now this is just me daydreaming but the FF could totally be reintroduced in the movies. Robotnik got sent away so if they really, really wanted to they could have him take over Sally’s Kingdom after duping Knuckles, making her the one who sent Tails to find Sonic. I know that’s not happening but I’d be awesome.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

28 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

Plus correct me if I’m wrong...Sega DOES own the rights to these characters. They were made for Sega and the Sonic franchise.

Yeah, they do. As far as Penders goes, they were made years before he was even brought onboard, so he couldn’t claim them if he wanted—and even he knows that.

[Tornado]

4 hours ago, Natie said:

I really don't see how it's invalid to consider the vision of the series' actual creators

It's not. But that's not actually what you're doing, and you're years too late for this argument to masquerade as such.

 

 

Because "the vision of the actual creators" wasn't something that manifested itself in an irreconcilable way with what was being done in the West until after the 20+ year subseries had already been created.

Because "the vision of the actual creators" doesn't inherently override all adaptations of a work that deviate from it, nor is the work they create inherently superior to derivative works.

Because there was so little actual content produced by the time major adaptations started that any attempt to create derivative works would have had to deviate significantly regardless; nevermind when someone sat down and tried to make a somewhat serialized TV show. AoStH came out at the same time; and beyond superficial similarities to the first two games deviated from them just as far as SatAM did.

Because it took until after Sonic 2 was a major success for the people working on the main series and the series itself to be treated as anything other than an ATM for Sega to withdraw money from.

Because other than maybe FMA fans, no other fanbase seems to have this fundamental problem comprehending how some people don't prefer the "prime" universe of a work and instead prefer things done in derivative versions; so whenever something like this comes up can't help themselves but attack it from all angles and tell people that they shouldn't care about it.

Because when the series was at its most popular and influential the material that SatAM was working from (and indeed, SatAM/Archie itself) was just as valid and official of an interpretation of the franchise as the stuff that was being put in the manuals to the games in Japan; and it wasn't until quite a few years later that the games as they were presented in America was changed to be the games as they were presented in Japan.

Because not everyone is far up the game canon's ass that they parachute into a thread barely about it to completely dismiss people's preferences for a subseries to a major franchise that ran for over 20 years because of reasoning like how it was just "western localization tactics that change things out of fear of not connecting with the people of our culture" and was made by "people none too interested in the source material." Reasoning that was played out before probably half of the members on this forum were even born.

 

4 hours ago, Natie said:

It's like saying I should believe MegaMan actually looks like a realistic pudgy many in spandex cuz that's what the box had.

No, it's like saying that you should believe Bad Box Art Megaman actually looked like a realistic pudgy man in spandex because he was present on the box of every Megaman game, his backstory was changed to something reflect that and that art style of him was used in countless amounts of merchandise and promotional material for years afterward. Except he wasn't, and Sonic's western interpretation was. The loose "SoA canon" concept that was adapted in varying amounts from the Sonic Bible (including by SatAM) was something that not only more directly made up much of the early marketing of the franchise in places where it actually sold well, but it was something that Sega of America even made (limp wristed, almost always nonsensical) attempts to tie into the games proper. Assface Sonic and the characterization his appearance conveyed (akin to the American Kirby is Hardcore running joke) was Sonic as far as the games were concerned in the west, and was an inherent influential piece of the series' presentation in the West that Bad Box Art Megaman never became beyond being a Capcom in-joke decades later.

 

4 hours ago, Natie said:

To say Japanese Sonic lore didnt exists until Adventure is just plain incorrect,

Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 had almost the exact same story; and beyond one definitely coming afterward had no connective tissue between them. Sonic 3 & Sonic and Knuckles were linked at the hip in both storylines they had and established that it was taking place after the events of Sonic 2 but was vague enough about the details that it's never been pegged down when Sonic CD happened; because Sonic CD had a story that was fleshed out and also used cutscenes but completely unrelated to what Naka was doing in the US at the time.

 

 

When did this need for the importance for canon and lore come into play, if not for the game that explicitly cleaned everything up years later? It certainly wasn't Sonic 1 and Sonic 2.

 

4 hours ago, Natie said:

I fail to see Adventure as a reboot as it's one of the only modern games to entirely build on things that were established before it

That's nice, but not everyone lived in Japan in the early 1990s. I consider it functionally a reboot and always have because it threw out nearly everything that had been said about the games outside of the SoJ canon, discarded major character traits that had been established outside of SoJ's influence (and changed one character even in Japan), substantially redesigned the the series aesthetic, explicitly separated itself from the various other continuities when the games outside of SoJ's influence hadn't bothered to do so and only committed to a broad strokes fitment of the things that happened in the games prior while retconning all of the western influence on those games stories out of existence.

 

You can disagree and that's fine, but it was a throwaway line in a post so just ignore it if it bothers you so much.

4 hours ago, Natie said:

To deny all that just cause, what? People who prefer a Japanese consistency are annoying to you?

Consistency, huh? How many Chaos Emeralds were there? 6? 7? 13? 14? 20? How old are the characters? How does Amy find herself always knowing where Sonic is?

 

 

 

But no. I'm not saying that people who prefer the Japanese canon are annoying. I'm saying that the people who prefer the game canon, and then use that as a springboard to insist that any of the other canons are inherently inferior mostly because they aren't the game canon, are annoying to me. To say that things that deviated from what the games were doing was automatically worse when was a shit argument in the late 2000s, when the game series was at its absolute nadir. It's a shit argument a decade later when you bring it up for why a character shouldn't even be allowed in a game designed to exchange fanservice for money. And on top of that, you're making that argument to apply retroactively to when said subseries was first created, when the game canon was practically non-existent and no one gave a shit about it.

 

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Each classic game's JP manual is filled with more detail than it reasonably needs

Sonic 1's Japanese manual is "Sonic went to South Island. Eggman was there trying to steal the chaos emeralds, an unmatched source of power. He trapped animals into robots to prevent Sonic from getting in his way."

Sonic 2's Japanese manual was basically the same as Sonic 1's, except it's on a different island that depending on the translation implies has different chaos emeralds, there's a bit describing how Tails met Sonic and was fascinated by Sonic's plane and how cool Sonic was, and then Eggman torched the island.

 

 

That's all there was when SatAM released of the immensely ingrained Japanese true canon lore source material that the creators of SatAM were wrong for deviating from when they made their TV show; and the writers of Archie were wrong for continuing with.

 

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Saying you don't agree with the desire and laying out your exact feelings towards the characters to explain why couldn't possibly be a more fitting response. The only other option is to just be excited about the project.

You could just not use a thread like this to show that characters from an old series canon are living rent free in your head. While I don't agree with the reasoning he keeps insisting to be the case, I've in comparison got no problem with E-122-Psi saying that he thinks it's fine that they show up in this game but drawing a line in the sand from them appearing in IDW or the real games.

 

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I even specified at the beginning of my initial post that I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by thinking this way.

 

 

4 hours ago, Natie said:

At that point, you seeing me as some kinda ruffian storming in here to shit on and demean an effort

Because that's exactly what you did. There was nothing else in your first post. This is a thread about a fan campaign on Twitter to have a character put in a game whose sole purpose is to get people to enjoy the fanservice so much that they give Sega money for it after Sega had already done it for another character in another comic. People have been drawing fanart of Sally for their cause, attempting to build camaraderie about her being added to the game that Tangle was and going out of their way to insist people are not disrespectful to anyone over the issue; even in the face of a fan push that is likely futile.

 

 

 

You saw that and absolutely used it as a pretext to shit all over everything; to say that the characters shouldn't come back in any circumstance, that people should stop asking for them, that the universe they occupied was always deficient and that it should have in fact died out long before it did. You did so in a way that strongly suggests that it didn't actually matter what the thread was about beyond the fact that people were talking about Archie characters and that was your in to complain that people still like them,

 

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(which you've demeaned far more than me by calling it innocuous and meant for a "shitty game" 3 times verbatim)

Which means you missed the point completely. No one should object to a fanservice addition to a glorified gacha game. It does not harm anyone for such a thing to happen; even if you want to argue that it would if we were talking about adding them to the regular games or the IDW comics. The fact that I keep saying it is an innocuous addition to a shitty spinoff is to reinforce that none of the people that crawl out of the woodwork to stiffen their lip about the game canon should give a shit about characters from other continuities appearing in it.

 

It makes it all the more absurd that it bothers you this much that people have interest in it.

 

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I think you should have a little more respect towards different opinions, it isnt fair to paint some crazy picture of a person because you don't agree with them or their language was too brash or something.

And I think respect needs to be earned. The language you use to push a viewpoint is absolutely relevant to the point you're trying to make with it. Especially so when the point you're trying to make is only tangentially related to what was being discussed anyway.

 

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I'd be more than glad to go back n' forth about why Sally is or isnt a good character in our opinions, but pointing fingers over the very nature of having a certain opinion or how you express it is just a waste of both of our time. 

Speak for yourself. I'm just as content responding to your viewpoints based on the unnecessarily confrontational way you make them and the validity of the basis for your opinion as I am debating the merits of individual characters themselves.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Tornado

[Zaysho]

People are free to not like Sally or whoever, as I've read enough valid reasoning what people didn't like about past incarnations, but I'm getting pretty tired of discussion of these characters feeling like obstacle courses for fans of these characters to justify adding them to spin-off games and material like the comics. This isn't some hostile takeover of the mainline games, geez. It would be easier to just say you didn't like them and talk about that, instead of acting like you need to be convinced about them when it's obvious you won't be when "canon" is now the silver bullet.

I get it; SatAM was too different from the games, or its development changed too many things (despite it forming from Sega of America's own internal bible). Archie had a particularly bad period in its history that apparently needs to be all the characters must always be judged by, regardless of later improvements or when the book was forcibly rebooted and brought up to code with the games. These characters were reworked in a way that paid respect to their past but also fit them just fine into the game world as we understood it at the time those storylines were published.

There are valid critiques for those reworkings, I even have some of my own, but the point is it's possible and they can be reworked again. Does reworking them carry an inherent risk? Could it alienate older fans? Sure. Hell, some people didn't even like when Archie was rebooted because of that, and some of them didn't even lose something they did like from Archie's lawsuit with Ken Penders. But every time it's brought up how to rework them, the idea is dismissed because of that risk in spite of the old works being considered incompatible. I don't get it and it makes discussing them in this context impossible.

 

If IDW got cancelled tomorrow in a similar nonchalant, "get the fuck over it" manner that Archie had, and Sega completely changed the way Sonic was moving forward that Tangle and Whisper were "incompatible" how many of you would be okay with that? Something tells me the story would be completely different. And I know this because I've seen arguments saying the FF don't deserve to come back just to gas up Sticks.*

*While I emphasized Sticks's name because I genuinely don't care about the character, or like her home series, I get this comes across as a slight to Sticks fans. I couldn't think of a way to word it better and it sounded more like a joke in my head, but I honestly don't care if people wanted to argue in her favor when she has at least some official acknowledgement from Sonic Team going and I don't think it would take much to rework her. She just happens to be a the back of the line in terms of what I'd like to see getting attention in this series lol

[MetalSkulkBane]

12 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

I saw Ian mentioning the hashtag and supporting it, so I guess there's that.

 

8 hours ago, antyep said:

Wow that might be weird cuz the guy who made this hates Flynn.

Sounds like best move. Best case scenario, hater will have to reconsider his views. Worst case scenario, Flynn shows he's not being petty.

Showing you're bigger man is best kind of revenge.

[Scritch the Cat]

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I will admit to liking some divergent takes like Boom Knuckles but the thing is that those are the adaptations, not the main works. See how many accept Knuckles acting the same way in the official games.

For what this is worth, the main games also started the trend of Knuckles being an idiot.  In his debut role, Knuckles was duped by Eggman, but that was one time so it didn’t imply much, and in the same game, Knuckles was shown to have some ability to conspire; lie in wait to ambush the heroes with surprise attacks and traps.  In Sonic Adventure and Sonic Battle, they forgot all the craftiness and decided to make getting duped by Eggman one of Knux’s defining character traits, and subsequently the abandonment of treasure hunting in favor of combat led to him being regarded as a dumb muscle type.  Not every game implies Knuckles is stupid, but no game I can recall since his debut really remembers that he could be smart in a way.

[Your Vest Friend]

Not interested in this campaign, if they did add another character from an alternate media I have a laundry list of characters I'd rather see, and in term of logically who would make the most sense I think Sticks would be higher up on the priority list (although I wouldn't want her either).

That all being said, given the context for where people are wanting them to appear...why would we need to work out the logistics of their place in continuity? They certainly haven't done that for Whisper and Tangle, or any of the movie characters. 

[Natie]

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

It's not. But that's not actually what you're doing, and you're years too late for this argument to masquerade as such.

Forgot you were me.

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

Because "the vision of the actual creators" doesn't inherently override all adaptations of a work that deviate from it, nor is the work they create inherently superior to derivative works

Ahhh, I'm realizing your presumption now, me having distaste for SatAM has led you to believe I'm some kind of SoJ purist who doesn't like anything that isn't cannon. AoStH and the OVA aren't accurate to cannon, so how come I like those? It's because they are interpretations that take the series in a direction I like. SatAM's slow burn tone, character portrayals, and artstyle are very much not my cup of tea, it's really that simple. 

 

As with multiple people in this thread, my ribbing on the Freedom Fighters has led them to assume I'm just another example of a long line of outrageous biased haters they've apperently suffered through for years. But no, I don't get involved in that kinda stuff, i wasn't there, so you can understand i found the immediate reaction bizarre.

I argued against the lore discussion because i thought you were selling the stories a bit too short, not because i think the makers of SatAM should have known all about it or something. I describe the show as disinterested in the source because on top of the tone and new designs looking incongruous with Sonic, the concept art of Robotnik and such is so completely different that it looks like they really just wanted to make their own original cartoon instead.

Was my comment ungraceful? Perhaps, but the initial few replies had me thinking the project was acting toxic and obnoxious, so I thought it was all too appropriate to be more brutally honest about the fanaticism surrounding these characters. I wouldn't even be upset if a character like that was added, but I think somebody being toxic about it should be told to let it go. If that wasn't the case and those replies were wrong, then sorry about that.

I wouldn't like you to hold on to the narrative of me trying to ruin everyones day and tossing and turning in bed thinking about hating sally acorn because I remind you of some annoying nerds from 17 years ago, but go ahead if you gotta.

 

[StaticMania]

So...this is just some bit to get Sally in a mobile game?

It'd be neat, but why strive small?

Pointless rallies gotta aim big.

[Scritch the Cat]

My own thoughts on the freedom fighters and their show are mixed.  As someone who overall prefers the canon stuff and character designs, I grudgingly admit that Sally is a better love interest than Amy Rose; simply because there’s more to her motivations than just crushing on Sonic.  And while I’m not big into shipping, let alone wars about it, seeing a version of Sonic who wasn’t afraid of romance while still being identifiably Sonic was nice.  I don’t think having a girlfriend necessarily has to undermine anything about him.  On the other hand, many of the other characters are pretty one-note, and Antoine is a punchably obnoxious racist stereotype.  Finally, the show’s attempt to feel darker and edgier is a swing and a miss; it’s too childishly tame for its attempts to work, and they just make it look more stereotypically cartoony instead.  For elaboration, read this.

I wouldn’t object to Sally being in mobile games.  The real question is if SEGA would.  As noted, characters being from an alternate continuity doesn’t matter when a game has no continuity, but that doesn’t mean the mobile games aren’t considered some sort of precedent for the main ones, so if they are, there might be a reason for SEGA to be less liberal towards the FFs than to, say, Longclaw.

[Wraith]

I tend to lean toward which characters were actually enjoyable additions over which "makes the most sense", especially when I consider that most Sonic cartoons aren't actually very different from the games anyway. They've all got their own history and slightly divergent tones,  but the premise is usually close enough. It doesn't really take me more than a couple of seconds to figure out how to include one, but are their personalities something I actually want to see again? 

With that in mind, Sticks is somewhere between Sleet and Dingo on the prioity list. I've argued the merits of Infinite and I would be happy if I never saw her again.  

I do actually like Sally as a foil to Sonic and a lot of the stuff her character revolves around is interesting to me. The other Freedom Fighters I get more mixed on but if you're going to introduce a whole kingdom you'd need a lot of faces to populate it anyway. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

All this talk about the source material is pretty nonsense when the Movie hardly stuck to it and defied expectations. Nevermind that every incarnation of Sonic played with the source and often did their own things, so it really comes off as looking for an excuse to complain.

[Tracker_TD]

7 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

All this talk about the source material is pretty nonsense when the Movie hardly stuck to it and defied expectations.

I think this speaks more to how low expectations for the Sonic Movie were than anything, really.

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I do actually like Sally as a foil to Sonic and a lot of the stuff her character revolves around is interesting to me. The other Freedom Fighters I get more mixed on but if you're going to introduce a whole kingdom you'd need a lot of faces to populate it anyway. 

If you want me to just speak my opinion rather than supposedly pretend to be formal about this, Sally's whole place as a foil is what puts me off her, because no matter how much they tried, no matter how much they insisted they'd 'fixed' her or fleshed her out properly, they could never really ditch the 'always right' sitcom wife role for her. While I do believe Sonic should have flaws called out about him, I don't think he needs someone he's straight forward below the competence hierarchy with, and believe he would work better with an equal that still lets his ethics work two way. I believe the modern incarnation of Tails works better as a more methodical foil for Sonic as well as not making the rest of the group redundant in that role (which I think is why some people see the other FFs as one note since Sally's chemistry tended to override them and make them redundant, they barely mattered at all in the show's second season for example). I just prefer even handed dynamics where everyone sort evens out the other depending on circumstance. Sonic can be reckless and arrogant in some cases, sure, but there are times being methodical and detail obsessed should fail as well, as shown with Tails' obsession with not-always-fool-proof machines when Sonic just states a simpler solution. That to me is a healthier dynamic where both characters balance out each other, not to mention with how Tails still shares Sonic's playful traits and doesn't feel like an incompatible opposite in every area. I'd rather they'd developed on this rather than having it downplayed in favour of another more one-note dynamic with a character.

I wouldn't mind a more fallible Sally that was treated as being as bull headed as Sonic and shown the good and bad of both spontaneous and methodical strategies, but at the end of the day, such a dynamic only took a VERY small iota of Sally's screen time. They couldn't even convey Sally as fallible when she genuinely WAS flawed or hypocritical, it was obvious after the earliest points of the SatAm/Archie comics that they did not see Sally as someone who had a hubris that needed taking down a peg like Sonic, she is nearly always described as 'humble'. It was obvious even from interviews that the writers who inherited Sally just thought she was a straight forward straight man; the one that generally had it altogether and wasn't really fallible herself. You could argue  this is me being pessimistic about SEGA's potential handling again, but ultimately it's rare even among GOOD writers. Even handed male/female dynamics are practically like catching lightning in a bottle, generally because the rule is the male character is the bungling fool who is the butt of jokes and the female is the competent straight man who always keeps her dignity, it's a buffer that most fall back into, even when they make a halfway attempt for an even-handed dynamic at first the scales usually end up tipping this way (likely because female characters aren't considered as funny being stuck in a foolish "loser" role as often as the male ones).

Even when the comics submitted to making Sally more flawed they kinda siddled around this area, making her bad decisions very bare bones and self contained and not really effecting her dynamic with other characters, her being 'wrong' about something should have been enough, they still never called into question the things many fans were divisive over in the first place, like her overbearing, self righteous or hypocritical facets and the story always supporting her tying down Sonic (besides that one time). As far as the writers were concerned they didn't exist or were just what were needed to deal with arrogant fools like Sonic, since they still kept occurring and leaving her rather repellent to me.

I think Sonic's character has been through a lot of bad decisions throughout media but adding a 'designated straight man' whose primary role is to one-sidedly point how his approach is bad and how her opposite ethics are always for the best, even when it ISN'T I don't think does him any better. They can make Sonic a more flawed character without giving him a sitcom wife.

I get it, some people like that archetype, but I don't think it fits, and I just don't trust it to be fixed after twenty years. Call me selfish and close minded if you want, but I just don't like that part of her and really don't want it in the games.