Rally 4 Sally

[E-122-Psi]

32 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yes, I sympathize with people who prefer the Sega incarnation of Sonic who is a free spirited rebel who everyone strives to be like, and how Sally is the antithesis to that. But I feel that mindset has blinded people to the sheer amount of potential a character and setting like SATAM/Archie had. And if this fanbase wasn't such...cesspool, I'm pretty sure Flynn and Sega could make a cohesive enough universe where they all could co-exist...and they did briefly before it the boot. 

It's that the potential was wasted even in the medias she was in. I don't mind them COMPROMISING the two takes of Sonic, making him both an inherently flawed and competent character, but they have throughout all of Sally's run dithered to do the same for her. Sonic is always the one getting it thrown in his face what an arrogant reckless fool his approach can make him and how it can affect those around him, which makes for good development in doses, in moderation and with others getting the same development (it's why I can't hate Lost Worlds because it at least served as that development for games Sonic however flawed). However neither extremes should have full right of way, and Sally represents the other extreme.

But Sally NEVER EVER EVER had this done to her, not even just one solitary token occasion. This was totally alien to everyone that wrote her, and thus as a result Sonic was doing double time in the flawed department and always having his core ideals undermined and fall before Sally consistently rather than a moderated balance of both ideals. Even Flynn didn't get this about Sally, he never understood what about her archetype was flawed and how that brushes off Sonic, I just don't think he and the other writers saw her as anything but a straight man, a character that isn't SUPPOSED to be undermined in their core, ie. the person that was the total opposite to Sonic was not just SOMETIMES but ALWAYS right to oppose him, and with that roadblock forever present with everyone that cares to write her, I don't think Sally can EVER co-exist with how games Sonic works. I need proof that ONE person in the creative industry can get that about her before I can get behind her.

The nearest I ever saw to a proper and full character study of Sally was weirdly enough this, a Christmas Carol parody in the Sea3on fan comic. Obviously it's exaggerated but I think it does the same to her what Sonic gets; a realisation of how her core characters has flaws and how the effects and strains they cause for her and others are thrown in front of her. How she too needs to change in areas. It doesn't even need to be deathly serious in handling to get this across:

http://www.sonicsatam.com/sea3on/?p=964

[Kuzu]

I'm gonna be as nice as possible when I say this; I'm not going to debate this with you. I find discussing this topic with you a waste of my time, and quite frankly, extremely exhausting. By all means, debate with anyone else, but I'm not participating. I said my piece, and I'm leaving it at that. 

[E-122-Psi]

Very well.

[DabigRG]

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

One of my favorite YouTube channels put up a video about Sally.

Touches upon a lot of the reasons she's such a divisive character and echoed my feelings when I first discovered the character.

And even talks about the potential the character has under the right pen, if Sega and the fanbase were just a bit more open-minded about her existence.

What issue is that issue 135-144 esque render from?

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

As someone who usually LOVES all this guy's retrospectives, I find myself not really convinced by this one sadly, since unlike so many other videos from the Games Apologist which revel in a concept's good points while still pinpointing and acknowledging the core issues and what should have been handled better, it continues the trend of turning a blind eye to the personal niggles I have with Sally, and that everyone who dislikes Sally is down to more superficial reasons like shipping and the grittier storyline and that her actual personality and role are perfectly compatible for the large part, all that can be implemented without need of change or rectification. I found one argument in the comments section that better argued the factor in inserting Sally:

I'm sorry but nothing will make me side with the idea of King Sonic. That was the final nail of 'Sally always knows better than Sonic' that I think prevents them having a healthy chemistry. I don't want Sonic to change just for Sally to exist.

And with that, shipping has officially entered the chat and objectivity has left the building.

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

 

The only way a Sonic show was going to work at the time was giving Sonic a good supporting cast to bounce off of, and that the audience had to love as well. 

Yes, I sympathize with people who prefer the Sega incarnation of Sonic who is a free spirited rebel who everyone strives to be like, and how Sally is the antithesis to that. But I feel that mindset has blinded people to the sheer amount of potential a character and setting like SATAM/Archie had. And if this fanbase wasn't such...cesspool, I'm pretty sure Flynn and Sega could make a cohesive enough universe where they all could co-exist...and they did briefly before it the boot. 

Pretty much.

On 9/6/2020 at 10:06 PM, E-122-Psi said:

I guess the thing is that sort of archetype CAN indeed work but they have to actually CALL THEM OUT ON IT in-universe. Like you said, just having some cases she acknowledged she had made standards even she couldn't uphold or even just some playful moments where Sonic notes her hypocrisy or echoed her own lecturing against her. Something to make it amount to actual development and mesh her character better. If that wasn't the actual intention, I feel that they should have had her blunders actually originate from her more cautious and methodical traits so she wasn't outright being a hypocrite about Sonic's impulsiveness (eg. making plans that seem concise on paper but don't really think through deviations or changes in event or are just TOO convoluted in their safety measures).

And yeah, the problem is that smart and more careful characters generally need more establishment for when they screw up or make blunders. It is possible to make them as flawed and in some cases even as silly and bungling as the more simple minded cast but, as I said before, you still need to set it up so things seem logical from their viewpoint, otherwise it just looks like an out-of-character moment. You also generally have to moderate these moments better so that they still palpable moments of actually looking intelligent.

Sonic and Sally are comparable to Rainbow Dash and Twilight Sparkle for example, but while the latter both have a shtick and as many defining flaws, Twilight Sparkle generally needs an episode to gradually setup her downward spiral so her over analysing logically backfires onto her, while with Rainbow Dash you just need her to overestimate herself and swoop in too quickly like with Sonic. Twilight doing the exact same careless shtick as Rainbow wouldn't work (at least not besides sporadic moments of weakness), which I feel is what they sometimes did to Sally, and they did it so often after a while that Sally started to look like a chronic hypocrite and a somewhat incompetent strategist.

The narrative was making her characterisation smart and sensible to the point of being near boring, but the actual agency of the character made her look like kind of a self righteous and impulsive blunderer. The two aspects never acknowledged the other in action thus these sides of her never really meshed together and developed into a happy balance. I think it also led to Sally coming off as kind of insufferable since it meant she won a lot of arguments undeservedly and never really got her worst vices thrown in front of her, another common writing folly of the designated 'sensible' character when written poorly. No one roots for a karma houdini.

Maybe not 'sultry' as the best word, more...feminine? I just liked her having a different eye pattern from the other SEGA characters, and not everyone just being 'angry cyclops' or 'Tails' eyes with mild tweaks on occasion. Blaze and Big are somewhat refreshing for this reason. Having their own unique facial design and expressions.

But yeah that one is a more personal nitpick and doesn't necessarily work.

Come to think of it, Blaze is the only  recurring Mobian girl without those eyes.

[Tornado]

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

As someone who usually LOVES all this guy's retrospectives, I find myself not really convinced by this one sadly, since unlike so many other videos from the Games Apologist which revel in a concept's good points while still pinpointing and acknowledging the core issues and what should have been handled better, it continues the trend of turning a blind eye to the personal niggles I have with Sally

It's too bad he didn't run the video by you personally and specifically before he spent hours putting together a 45 minute video covering the character and her history. I hope you contacted him about the transgression so he doesn't do so again in the future.

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

It's that the potential was wasted even in the medias she was in. I don't mind them COMPROMISING the two takes of Sonic, making him both an inherently flawed and competent character, but they have throughout all of Sally's run dithered to do the same for her. Sonic is always the one getting it thrown in his face what an arrogant reckless fool his approach can make him and how it can affect those around him, which makes for good development in doses, in moderation and with others getting the same development (it's why I can't hate Lost Worlds because it at least served as that development for games Sonic however flawed). However neither extremes should have full right of way, and Sally represents the other extreme.

But Sally NEVER EVER EVER had this done to her, not even just one solitary token occasion. This was totally alien to everyone that wrote her, and thus as a result Sonic was doing double time in the flawed department and always having his core ideals undermined and fall before Sally consistently rather than a moderated balance of both ideals. Even Flynn didn't get this about Sally, he never understood what about her archetype was flawed and how that brushes off Sonic, I just don't think he and the other writers saw her as anything but a straight man, a character that isn't SUPPOSED to be undermined in their core, ie. the person that was the total opposite to Sonic was not just SOMETIMES but ALWAYS right to oppose him, and with that roadblock forever present with everyone that cares to write her, I don't think Sally can EVER co-exist with how games Sonic works. I need proof that ONE person in the creative industry can get that about her before I can get behind her.

The nearest I ever saw to a proper and full character study of Sally was weirdly enough this, a Christmas Carol parody in the Sea3on fan comic. Obviously it's exaggerated but I think it does the same to her what Sonic gets; a realisation of how her core characters has flaws and how the effects and strains they cause for her and others are thrown in front of her. How she too needs to change in areas. It doesn't even need to be deathly serious in handling to get this across:

http://www.sonicsatam.com/sea3on/?p=964

Honestly, I think Mr. Flynn just got caught up with building her back up to where she should be, having some good stories with that, setting up the Mecha Sally arc, doing it up to a little before it's conclusion, and then having to toss out 75% of her history to redefine her in a way that is familiar as well as accessible on the move.

 

This is just in the bubble that isn't nearly everything, mind you.

[Kuzu]

Flynn honestly doesn't get paid enough for what he has to deal with; you have Archie fans who bitch when Sally isn't portrayed well, and you have Sega fans who bitch at how she's overshadowing the game cast. It literally never ends lmao, I would have just left. Kudos to the man.

 

 

Honestly if I had to integrate Sally and her baggage into the games, and I had full creative control with none of Sega's mandated bullshit; I'd just make her Sonic's ex, they had a thing but they wanted different things and drifted apart but are still amicable with each other.

Sally runs her kingdom while Sonic does his usual thing.

[E-122-Psi]

I admit a lot of it is probably just me getting increasingly OCD about such handling in the past, but I dunno, it's just the more I think about it, the more it's glaring it kept happening and was never subverted ONCE, not even within over two decades of stories and multiple changes of writers.

As mentioned there was lengthy point Ian's team were TRYING to make Sally flawed, but it felt like they never got it, despite this ideal opening, and they kept making the same mistakes. It's just more infuriating the more I think about how it NEVER got successfully acknowledged by the writers, ones that even noticed their own minor contradictions about other characters they wrote like Rotor. Sally genuinely INFURIATES me. Even the games cast in all their crappy handling don't do that nearly as much, maybe since even they got points they tried to fix what was fundamentally wrong with them sometimes, while Sally's big problem from day one was forever a big former-pink elephant in the living room until her 'retirement', they never got round to it, even when they were TRYING to figure what was wrong with her.

Maybe I'm just really nitpicky here, but it seems so bizarre that it should be like that. Even basic kids cartoons are able to undermine the methodical character when they are wrong or they are a hypocrite, but the comics always missed the mark even when the story actually LOOKS like it's setting up for the parable (eg. her underestimating of Cream or her role reversals around Sonic or Khan...only to disregard it or treat her like a badass for it). Sally is all about calling out Sonic for being reckless. But then she is reckless. Multiple times. Surely that is a basic fundamental point to how their dynamic works that should be called out. But they never noticed it.

I admit I'm not too sure why I'm like this about Sally. It's not even full on hatred of the character. It just....dumbfounds me obsessively for whatever reason. That out of Big the Cat, Silver, Omega and how many others, it's the character who got tons of development in a complex story centric media that never had a moment of her core issues being acknowledged and fixed.

[DabigRG]

I suppose the word there is egregious.

That and you might be able to relate.

[E-122-Psi]

15 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I suppose the word there is egregious.

That and you might be able to relate.

Perhaps so yeah, especially since it seemed to only increase with writers that were usually good for noticing core problems with the Sonic universe, making it even more so in that regard.

I think it might also be this love/hate relationship I have with the character. I actually like Sally's core concept and have grown to adore other examples of it in other franchises, which really only makes it more infuriating that they never had a moment they quite 'clicked' her for me. The comics never had this one exceptional moment where I thought they got it down pat and used her satisfyingly.

[Kuzu]

This is just my opinion, but perhaps you shouldn't take the characterization of a cartoon chipmunk so seriously. I get we're Sonic fans, and being obsessed about this stuff is kind of our thing, but there's a point where you kind of need to let it go. for the sake of healthy discussion.

[E-122-Psi]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is just my opinion, but perhaps you shouldn't take the characterization of a cartoon chipmunk so seriously. I get we're Sonic fans, and being obsessed about this stuff is kind of our thing, but there's a point where you kind of need to let it go. for the sake of healthy discussion.

I know, and i get that it's disproportionate to the fallouts I have caused just in this one thread, but ultimately Sally is just a headache for me to handle because of this, and so in terms of a discussion about whether she should be a fixture to the actual games themselves, this is always going to be a source of debate for me, since I DON'T want that frustration to be adapted with her and yet it's such a consistency with her, even with better writers.

I can accept even Forces and TSR's mediocrity over something that outright pisses me off.

[Kuzu]

If it makes you that upset, to the point of criticizing someone else's personal video for not adhering to your own arbitrary standards, then it might be time to take a step back, because that's honestly unhealthy dude. You shouldn't be this obsessed over something this trival, even if it's something you're passionate about it.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Surely the video was trying to convey an idea and thus can be criticised? I feel if anything, the guy who likes the character enough he shoved her in multiple of the actual games probably isn't coming from a bad faith position when arguing why he feels Sally often doesn't work, and thus the repeated bad faith responses are a bit surreal.

 

Mine's just "keep her out keep her out keep her out keep her fans out keep anything from that branch out go go go gone go away out out out", a bit less nuanced, but just one post. Apparently preferrable.

[Kuzu]

10 minutes ago, The KKM said:

Surely the video was trying to convey an idea and thus can be criticised? I feel if anything, the guy who likes the character enough he shoved her in multiple of the actual games probably isn't coming from a bad faith position when arguing why he feels Sally often doesn't work, and thus the repeated bad faith responses are a bit surreal.

 

Mine's just "keep her out keep her out keep her out keep her fans out keep anything from that branch out go go go gone go away out out out", a bit less nuanced, but just one post. Apparently preferrable.

That's not what was being criticized, but the fact that the video didn't cover topics that they specifically cared about. 

 

I don't really care if anybody really hates Sally, that's y'all own personal problem. The repeated arguments on why she sucks and never works are tiresome. If you hate her and never want to see her in the games or just think she's too flawed to fit in with Sonic, fine. But it kind of feels like the people so vehemently against her don't even want anyone else discussing any potential merits to the character. If you don't care about her, then please kindly let everyone else have the floor to speak. 

 

the whole discourse surrounding this character is quite honestly tiresome. 

[SBR2]

15 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Flynn honestly doesn't get paid enough for what he has to deal with; you have Archie fans who bitch when Sally isn't portrayed well, and you have Sega fans who bitch at how she's overshadowing the game cast. It literally never ends lmao, I would have just left. Kudos to the man.

Agreed. I've seen the kind of shit people throw at him and the conspiracy theories and I honestly wonder how the man can maintain his will to keep in touch with the fandom. 

You have the shipping wars where people would say he hated Amy because he was focused on Sally or he hated Sally because he was focusing on Amy, the people who say he hates the Freedom Fighters because he (rightfully) said they weren't relevant to the series as it is now, the people who say he hates Sally because he made he Bi, people who spread conspiracy theories about him because he didn't put up with them being a dick. It's just like Ian Flynn is a stronger man than I will ever be. 

[E-122-Psi]

I will admit that I am probably one of Ian's meanest (and sometimes most inconsistent) critics. I remember in fact one time Ian actually did a stream with the Bumbleking group of one of my hacks. Despite the blatant glitches and unclear mechanics, I don't think he actually had a single bad thing to say about it. I felt like an ass really.

I want to make clear that my qualms with Ian are NOT as a person. I certainly think some of his work can be pretentious, that he is maybe over-assured he is 'fixing' parts of the franchise which is a little annoying, but at the same time it's not like Penders, where so many of his actions feel like a personal power play and an inability to acknowledge his own errors and that other factors make the franchise good. Like I said Ian did TRY to fix Sally, he just didn't really get it, and I think that kinda made things worse. (I don't think he really hates Amy either since he did successfully fine tune his take on her as things went on, I feel like in terms of her co-existing with Sally he kinda kept her out of the way too much, but I think that's more because it was an obvious complication from crossing medias that was hard to really strike on the nose and deal with).

I have to point out that it's not that I wanted Sally to be flanderized into just this pompous over strategic fool who always got upstaged by Sonic. I like that she is earnest, well meaning and intelligent, and I don't mind she has moments of successfully putting Sonic in his place and pointing out his actual flaws (the lack of such a role being done effectively in Sonic X I think made him more one note for example, same for the games until Lost Worlds happened) but I just feel that is only one side of the coin that is neccessary for her and the writers were in too much of a comfort zone with her. I get WHY. Role reversals where the more down to earth female screws up for once are often the exception in media in general, and Sally's role as a straight man is a legit archetype, not every single character is gonna have the same ratio of flaws and strengths as the main character. But I think in terms of still wanting Sally to seem like a dynamic co-lead and a primary foil for Sonic, who is also designed to be a rounded character, I think designating her to that same role ALL THE TIME was ultimately harmful. If they know they must sometimes be on the nose about the uglier elements of Sonic's fundamental personality to humanise him and just make his characterisation more colourful and capable of fun dynamics, they must do the same for Sally. Again Ian TRIED, but I think he faltered on the 'fundamental' part, I don't think he knew what exactly was flawed about Sally's default personality and had to give her an arbitrary idiot ball just to screw up. Perhaps due to feeling forced to do this with her, he maybe never noticed the by products of this, that Sally sometimes contradicted herself or looked like a hypocrite making these errors, or he missed too good to be true moments where he genuinely gave her personality unctuous or misguided qualities only to not play on them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If Sally were to be brought back, do you honestly think they’d even consider those nuances of her character?

Because at the very least, if that were to be a thing, she’d have the bare minimum of what she’s recognized for, barring her romantic angle with Sonic. 

[E-122-Psi]

7 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

If Sally were to be brought back, do you honestly think they’d even consider those nuances of her character?

Because at the very least, if that were to be a thing, she’d have the bare minimum of what she’s recognized for, barring her romantic angle with Sonic. 

Well, yeah. And that's my problem. If a comic with WAY more elaborate story focus couldn't get what was needed to make her work properly, what hopes are there for the games?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

21 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well, yeah. And that's my problem. If a comic with WAY more elaborate story focus couldn't get what was needed to make her work properly, what hopes are there for the games?

Then that’s gonna be your first mistake towards any potential of her being brought back, and you’ll forever have problems with the character going forward.

There’s different ways of making a character work properly, and not all of them will be able to have everything you desire. We should’ve learned that the first time Archie was rebooted before being cancelled and replaced by IDW, because that was when Sally was given a fresh new take on her character, and that was by intention—she was never going to be the way she was in the past, and needed to adapt to the present. Similar to how Sonic was modified come his first actual major 3D game with SA1 and gradually changed over time while still (somewhat) keeping the bare minimum of what he’s known for as a character.

[E-122-Psi]

28 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Then that’s gonna be your first mistake towards any potential of her being brought back, and you’ll forever have problems with the character going forward.

There’s different ways of making a character work properly, and not all of them will be able to have everything you desire. We should’ve learned that the first time Archie was rebooted before being cancelled and replaced by IDW, because that was when Sally was given a fresh new take on her character, and that was by intention—she was never going to be the way she was in the past, and needed to adapt to the present. Similar to how Sonic was modified come his first actual major 3D game with SA1 and gradually changed over time while still (somewhat) keeping the bare minimum of what he’s known for as a character.

I get that. There are many times I've seen a character used in a way I didn't expect and thought it was impressively done.

The thing though, I didn't feel that was what happened with Sally. She was in fact in many ways the same character with the same issues, worsened in fact. Spark of Life was a key case of them being ignorant to the same writing flaws with her, to the point that even her current foil getting developed into her role properly didn't click them what was off with her. It wasn't Sally not having those traits anymore, they were still in denial that she still DID.

Sally was still the perennial 'designated' straight man and enabled pontificating hypocrite, just now even worse. Reboot Sally to me didn't really feel like a new direction for the character as much as the same jumbled jigsaw with even more pieces messed up.

If this writing issue is just forever stuck to her with even more cohesive writers and story tellers, imagine how it could end up in the games. Imagine Sally's designated hero status being translated in an even more slapdash story. Hell take away the aforementioned nuance and you risk having a snide sanctimonious ass who always wins every argument undeserved and makes every other character look dumb.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

15 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

If this writing issue is just forever stuck to her with even more cohesive writers and story tellers, imagine how it could end up in the games. Imagine Sally's designated hero status being translated in an even more slapdash story.

Well, pick your poison here—which would match your standards more, her portrayal with cohesive writers or those in the hands of more slapdash ones?

I’m as massive a fan of the comics as you are, having grown up with her since I was a kid, but I recognize there are trade-offs that will bring elements different to what I’m used to based on where and how things are adapted. So it’s a matter of which fits my preferences more.

[Kuzu]

I'm inclined to believe the problem is less with Sally and how she's written, and just more with your own expectations on how you want the character to be written. You seem to be very attached to the specific interpretation of Sally that you have in your head, and vehemently reject almost any interpretation that goes against it. Because honestly, if Sally was as problematic of a character as you were trying to make her seem, she wouldn't be as popular or have as many ardent defenders.

I'm not saying that she's a perfect character, but I really can't see or understand these apparent problems that you have with her. I found her character to be fine and actually grew to like her somewhat post-reboot. So how much of Sally's flaws are actual or what you perceive to be flaws that you aren't willing to let go of?

 

This character REALLY can't be that based on everything I know about her.

[Wraith]

6 hours ago, The KKM said:

Surely the video was trying to convey an idea and thus can be criticised? I feel if anything, the guy who likes the character enough he shoved her in multiple of the actual games probably isn't coming from a bad faith position when arguing why he feels Sally often doesn't work, and thus the repeated bad faith responses are a bit surreal.

He has not taken in a single counterargument. He's not evolving his stance. He's just restating the same point over and over again in increasingly bloated ways. Bad faith arguments are coming out because it's just about the only way to get an expression out of him that's not an essay about his personal trauma with the character.

[Tornado]

7 hours ago, The KKM said:

Surely the video was trying to convey an idea and thus can be criticised? I feel if anything, the guy who likes the character enough he shoved her in multiple of the actual games probably isn't coming from a bad faith position when arguing why he feels Sally often doesn't work, and thus the repeated bad faith responses are a bit surreal.

Here you go.

 

Get back to us when you've caught up.