Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[Phos]

Yeah, there were a bunch of brokenly hard bits of that game that they kind of fixed by sticking a respawning extra life in front of.

That, and it seemed interaction starved, I might describe the levels as almost seeming like some kind of cheap fake moving background. It didn't seem like Sonic was actually in a place, the levels were more like blurs. It wasn't helped by the boost, which was implemented in such a way that makes it a tad useless in any environment where there's actually places to look around.

I am a bit worried about what this game could hypothetically do if it is good. If it comes out and it's great, will everyone (including Sega) might attribute it it to it being in two dimensions?

^ The hell was I doing when I typed this?

Edited December 2, 2009 by Phos

[Tornado]

I am a bit worried about what this game could hypothetically do if it is good. If it comes out and it's great, will everyone (including Sega) might attribute it it it being in two dimensions?

Welcome to the club. My first reaction to the news (700 million pages ago) was something along the lines of "Well, shit, how screwed are we going to be if it doesn't suck?"

Edited December 2, 2009 by Tornado

[Candescence]

So... Screwed if they fail, screwed if they succeed? Talk about a potential lose/lose situation.

[Tornado]

Keep in mind that I would love for it to be a good game. Its just that if it is good (and I mean objectively good. Not that wishy-washy "I can put up with its problems because Sonic Team showed a shred of competence" crap that Unleashed was justified with), I would almost certainly be leaving the fanbase for a very long time. I don't want to do that. I like the fanbase. I find it entertaining.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Tornado

[Phos]

I though Unleashed would do the same, good or bad, though Unleashed was a tad strange, and actually had me flat out in denial of it's problems for a few days.

[Kintor]

If only I was. :\

There's just a lot of stuff that makes seriously unreasonable expectations of players who haven't memorized the stage. This would normally be fine if the only risk is killing off your chances of a better time, but other than the early stages... And as previously mentioned, the easily-placed 1-Ups just seem like a crutch that does nothing to stem the frustration. The QTEs, besides becoming more and more likely to kill you instantly if you screw up, are both random and often expect you to have very impressive reflexes to perform them unless you get lucky, and it doesn't help that it uses almost every button on the controller. At least the Wii version restricts the QTEs to A, B, and waggle and are far more reasonable.

Anyway, I'd rather not derail the topic with this sort of discussion, so...

No, I really do think that you’re over exaggerating. Sonic Unleashed, like all Sonic games, is a game designed with children in mind. That is to say, Sonic Team designed the game in such a way that even first time gamers can get the hang of it; after a little practise. Eggmanland may be the hardest level in the game but is far from impossible. Despite what you may think, memorisation is not the key to beating this level. The trick is far simpler, just play the game until controlling Sonic becomes natural to you, so that you intuitively know what to do in a given situation.

So, rather then play Eggmanland until you beat it, play another level. The idea is to practise Sonic’s moves, where you do this is largely inconsequential. Given that the earlier levels are easier, somewhere like Rooftop Run and/or Savannah Citadel would be best. Done well, these levels offer a second advantage; you earn a lot of lives in the process of practising. In this way, with a little more confidence a few lives up your sleeve, Eggmanland shouldn’t trouble you anymore.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Kintor

[Candescence]

No, I really do think that you’re over exaggerating. Sonic Unleashed, like all Sonic games, is a game designed with children in mind. That is to say, Sonic Team designed the game in such a way that even first time gamers can get the hang of it; after a little practise. Eggmanland may be the hardest level in the game but is far from impossible. Despite what you may think, memorisation is not the key to beating this level. The trick is far simpler, just play the game until controlling Sonic becomes natural to you, so that you intuitively know what to do in a given situation.

So, rather then play Eggmanland until you beat it, play another level. The idea is to practise Sonic’s moves, where you do this is largely inconsequential. Given that the earlier levels are easier, somewhere like Rooftop Run and/or Savannah Citadel would be best. Done well, these levels offer a second advantage; you earn a lot of lives in the process of practising. In this way, with a little more confidence a few lives up your sleeve, Eggmanland shouldn’t trouble you anymore.

Clearly, if that was what they intended, then they failed spectacularlly.

No. No. No. For God's sake, no. That goes against general sensibilities of good platforming game design, and gamer sensisbilities in general for that matter. Freakn' Castlevania and Mega Man games do not need to make you do this just to beat the final level, nor do other Sonic games! If you haven't become skilled at using (if not mastered) your character's abilities by the time you've reached the final stage, you are either a terrible gamer (which I am clearly not), or there is something seriously wrong with the game. Once again, I bring up Super Castlevania IV - by the time I've reached the final stage, I damn well in full control of Simon Belmont and know his tricks, and yet, the stage itself is still hard, as it tests your skill with new and different situations. And even then, you're still bound to make mistakes from time to time, but that's the point, you learn from your mistakes so you know how to pass the obstacle. Same with Mega Man. The mantra here is if you fail, try, try and try again when facing against the challenges of the final stage. The general rule of progression is that you do not need to go back in order to practice in order to progress.

Thank you, sir, if that is indeed the problem, you just helped highlight another part of what's wrong with Unleashed in my eyes. But I still maintain that Eggmanland itself is still badly designed as hell.

Edited December 2, 2009 by The Sniper

[Kintor]

Sniper, all games have a learning curve, Sonic Unleashed is no different. Games may challenges us from time to time but they are made to be beaten. Any game can be beaten when once you get the hang of it. However, even when it comes to Sonic games, getting good won’t happen overnight. Nobody likes getting get a game over; yet, when you play any game for the first time they are almost unavoidable. I’m sorry but Sonic Unleashed is no more difficult then any other platformer made to day, you really shouldn’t be finding the game so hard.

If anything, Sonic Unleashed is easier then the old school Sonic games. Technology has advanced; many of the features we take for granted today were simply not present in the older games. Just being able to save the game is a huge advantage, drastically reducing the difficulty of playing any level. Dying at Eggmanland is a non-event; you can just try the level again – completely painless. However if this was Sonic 1’s Scrap Brain Zone act 2, in my view one of the hardest Sonic levels ever made, you’d have to start the whole game over again.

Do not think for a second that Project Needlemouse will be any different. If Sonic Team is making a game in the vein of the old games, then we will see levels far harder then anything seen in Sonic Unleashed. There is even the possibility that Needlemouse won’t even have a save feature; although personally, I think that they should include one, it is really a useful feature. If Needlemouse is that sort of game, then you may have reason to claim that Sonic Team is being unfair, just not now.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Kintor

[Agent York]

I though Unleashed would do the same, good or bad, though Unleashed was a tad strange, and actually had me flat out in denial of it's problems for a few days.

I don't think it's strange.

The problem is Sonic Unleashed is neither a terrible game nor amazing game. I don't care if you really love it or hate it in your own opinion, but everything in the game is subjective. On one hand you got high graphic, soundtrack, CG and the like quality, the game is definitely fast, and some of the stages are a joy, and there definitely is a lot of content in the game, but on the other hand you have annoying missions, dragged-out stages, annoying collecting missions, very much trial-and-error gameplay.

It's not a bad game but it's not a great game either. You'll only dislike it or like it based on your personal preference. See, I personally liked it, HOWEVER I would not want future Sonic games to be like that. I found it too arcade-y and would prefer if the series was more platformer-adventure. I prefer the gameplay styles seen in games like Sonic Adventure series, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, etc. Not amazingly fast and with good level design that promotes fun creative ideas that flows seamlessly with the level.

[Marcello]

I thought Sonic Unleashed was "harder" than Sonic 3. That had saving, too. But like Sniper said Unleashed was unfairly hard at times.

[gato]

HOLAS:

If anything, Sonic Unleashed is easier then the old school Sonic games. Technology has advanced; many of the features we take for granted today were simply not present in the older games. Just being able to save the game is a huge advantage, drastically reducing the difficulty of playing any level. Dying at Eggmanland is a non-event; you can just try the level again – completely painless. However if this was Sonic 1’s Scrap Brain Zone act 2, in my view one of the hardest Sonic levels ever made, you’d have to start the whole game over again.

Can't proove this with unleashed but my nephew completed Team rose story in Sonic Heroes and has beaten almost all the stories in Sonic Adventure (He's still stuck in Sonic's Final Egg), but for some reason, he can't beat Marble, Chemical plant nor Hydrocity zone. D:

Maybe that thing about technology it's true, but as I said, I can't test this with unleashed (I don't own any console).

Anyways, my nephew also sucks at the advance and rush games, so maybe he just suck at 2D platformers

Edited December 2, 2009 by christmasrafan

[Candescence]

Oh, dear. Where to begin?

Sniper, all games have a learning curve, Sonic Unleashed is no different. Games may challenges us from time to time but they are made to be beaten. Any game can be beaten when once you get the hang of it. However, even when it comes to Sonic games, getting good won’t happen overnight. Nobody likes getting get a game over; yet, when you play any game for the first time they are almost unavoidable. I’m sorry but Sonic Unleashed is no more difficult then any other platformer made to day, you really shouldn’t be finding the game so hard.

No more difficult? How many platformers have you actually played? Unleashed is harder than Mario Galaxy, even harder than the hardest challenges of that game, even with Luigi. Unleashed is harder than many of the post-SOTN Castlevania games (and way harder than SOTN itself, it's as least as hard as Order of Ecclesia at the later levels). Harder than the Rushes. The difficulty wouldn't be so bad if it didn't stem my enjoyment of the game.

If anything, Sonic Unleashed is easier then the old school Sonic games. Technology has advanced; many of the features we take for granted today were simply not present in the older games. Just being able to save the game is a huge advantage, drastically reducing the difficulty of playing any level. Dying at Eggmanland is a non-event; you can just try the level again – completely painless. However if this was Sonic 1’s Scrap Brain Zone act 2, in my view one of the hardest Sonic levels ever made, you’d have to start the whole game over again.

Seriously? The classic Sonic games on the Genesis were piss easy most of the time. Compared to most platformers on the NES, or even some of the later Sonic games, they are a cakewalk. The only geniunely difficult parts tend to be the final bosses and the special stages. The only stage in the classics that sticks out in my mind as being geniunely difficult is Wing Fortress from Sonic 2, mainly because of the bloody pits. Sonic 2's Death Egg doesn't count, because it's more like a 2-part boss fight, not unlike Super CV IV's three bosses right before Dracula himself, and even then, it's piss easy compared to fighting Death. Scrap Brain? I laugh at Scrap Brain. Eggmanland is horrible. The issue isn't difficulty itself. It's the fake difficulty, the challenge that simply kills the enjoyment, as I must mention again.

Also, Mega Man 9 has saves, is very challenging indeed, and I'm not complaining about its difficulty. See where I'm going with this? Saving is not the issue here.

Do not think for a second that Project Needlemouse will be any different. If Sonic Team is making a game in the vein of the old games, then we will see levels far harder then anything seen in Sonic Unleashed. There is even the possibility that Needlemouse won’t even have a save feature; although personally, I think that they should include one, it is really a useful feature. If Needlemouse is that sort of game, then you may have reason to claim that Sonic Team is being unfair, just not now.

If it will be anything like the classics, it'll be much easier than Unleashed, unless deliberately so, and even then I would only complain if the difficulty is Unleashed's, as in, unfair and frustration-inducing.

[Kintor]

Sniper, you must know that all video games are designed to challenge the player, this is what difficulty means. You are supposed to struggle against the game, in the hope of one day beating it. To do this you must get better at the game first. For any gamer, some things have to be learned from experience, and no amount of tutorials will suffice. Playing a game until you improve is the only way to achieve this. Don’t blame the developers if you can’t beat a game made for children. Do what you did as a child – keep a stiff upper lip and play the game again until you get it right.

In my view, games have changes a lot over the decades but they will always be difficult, to one degree or another. Personally, I loved Sonic Unleashed. I may have had my fair share of game over, but if anything that just compelled me to keep trying, until I beat the game. So it was with Sonic for the Sega Master System, it was my first Sonic game, it took me months to beat but I really didn’t mind, it’s all part of the experience. I still have no idea what Project Needlemouse will become; However, I’m sure that I’ll approach this new Sonic game in exactly the same way.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Kintor

[Tornado]

Sniper, you must know that all video games are designed to challenge the player, this is what difficulty means.

He's not saying otherwise. What he is saying is that Unleashed has difficulty in the most ass way possible. It has, in the later levels, level design that punishes the player unless they know in advance how the level will pan out. The game shouldn't offer tons of extra bonus lives or give you the ability to save scum through the game because there shouldn't be an issue where one has to burn through lives just to know the stage design.

Ghouls 'N Ghosts is a hard platformer. Prinny is a hard platformer. Sonic Unleashed is a cheap platformer. The distinction is that someone really good could theoretically sit down and play the former two without losing a single life. For the latter, someone really lucky could theoretically sit down and play the game without losing a single life.

And in a shallow attempt to tie this back into the topic:

If Sonic Team is making a game in the vein of the old games, then we will see levels far harder then anything seen in Sonic Unleashed.

The classic games, barring specific instances in Sonic 1 and Wing Fortress, were incredibly easy platformers considering they came out as the NES generation was winding down. Unless Sonic Team's idea of "like the classics" has permanently changed to be "shit like Sonic Advance 3," there will be nothing like Unleashed's difficulty in this game.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Tornado

[Candescence]

Thank you, Tornado, for clarifying my point, which Kintor seemed to be missing. Challenge is challenge, and challenge is good, I never disputed that, but it still has to be fair. Unleashed, in the later levels, is not.

Hopefully, Needlemouse with avoid the sort of cheap, fake difficulty that Unleashed had. Something as easy as the classics would be a breath of fresh air for me. Then again, I'm not holding my breath.

Edited December 2, 2009 by The Sniper

[Kintor]

He's not saying otherwise. What he is saying is that Unleashed has difficulty in the most ass way possible. It has, in the later levels, level design that punishes the player unless they know in advance how the level will pan out. The game shouldn't offer tons of extra bonus lives or give you the ability to save scum through the game because there shouldn't be an issue where one has to burn through lives just to know the stage design.

Ghouls 'N Ghosts is a hard platformer. Prinny is a hard platformer. Sonic Unleashed is a cheap platformer. The distinction is that someone really good could theoretically sit down and play the former two without losing a single life. For the latter, someone really lucky could theoretically sit down and play the game without losing a single life.

And in a shallow attempt to tie this back into the topic:

The classic games, barring specific instances in Sonic 1 and Wing Fortress, were incredibly easy platformers considering they came out as the NES generation was winding down. Unless Sonic Team's idea of "like the classics" has permanently changed to be "shit like Sonic Advance 3," there will be nothing like Unleashed's difficulty in this game.

Nonsense, Sonic Unleashed is a very well designed game. Lives are a perfectly reasonable way of making a level fairer; mistakes to do happen, a few extra lives are enough to make an unbeatable level merely difficult. Even so, Eggmanland is designed to challenge the player, but not in any way you shouldn’t already know how to handle. No death is ‘cheap’ in this game; everything can be countered, if only you know how. Sonic Team combined elements from every aspect of the game into a single level; we have the bobsled alongside the rockets from Dragon Road, not to mention a significant amount of platforming. Besides, Eggmanland is still rendered with the Hedgehog Engine; it is a beautiful if surreal level, perfect for showing off each esoteric trap. So, next time you die, spare a thought for all the developers who worked so hard to kill you.

Anyway, as far as Project Needlemouse is concerned, I would be perfectly happy if the game is of a similar difficulty to Sonic Unleashed. A game should hard but not impossible. Sonic Team must also make a game that children can play, so that they may one day beat it. I think that the challenges in Sonic gamesgame today work well, you lose but you are not discouraged. At the same time, these challenges still share a link to the older games; spike traps have been with us since day one. I look forward to whatever approach Sonic Team eventually chooses.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Kintor

[Marcello]

As long as it doesn't have shit like the medals, I'm fine

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Nonsense, Sonic Unleashed is a very well designed game. Lives are a perfectly reasonable way of making a level fairer; mistakes to do happen, a few extra lives are enough to make an unbeatable level merely difficult.

And that's arguable. Lives atleast allow you a better chance at staying in the game from the point of death so that you wouldn't have to go all the way from point A just to get back to where you are, as would be the case for a number of Unleashed's levels.

However, extra lives are not enough to make a stage merely difficult, especially in the case of Eggmanland. You could go through hell even if you had 30 lives to spare and there is a big chance that you could go through all of them halfway through the stage. Compared to the previous levels before it (and even some of those stages are almost as difficult), Eggmanland is an unfair spike in its level of difficulty.

Even so, Eggmanland is designed to challenge the player, but not in any way you shouldn’t already know how to handle. No death is ‘cheap’ in this game; everything can be countered, if only you know how.

Oh there are a lot of places where a death can be cheap, even if you know how to get through everything. The QTEs for one are the fault of a lot of cheap deaths at times when you press a wrong button, and Eggmanland among other stages is completely unforgivable: if you press the A button when you were suppose to press X in the time alloted, you're punished with a loss of life.

Sonic Team combined elements from every aspect of the game into a single level; we have the bobsled alongside the rockets from Dragon Road, not to mention a significant amount of platforming.

The bobsled part of Eggmanland was by far one of the worse parts of the stage. It was way too loose and the ground would end up being way too narrow where a slight tilt could spell your death. And unless there's something else to this, when you dismount from the bobsled there's a likelihood that you would still fall to the depths below.

So, next time you die, spare a thought for all the developers who worked so hard to kill you.

I'll tell them to fix the stage, as it needs some serious reworking.

[Tornado]

Damnit The Sniper. Now you got me into this.

Lives are a perfectly reasonable way of making a level fairer; mistakes to do happen, a few extra lives are enough to make an unbeatable level merely difficult.

That would only be true if the game had fair difficulty. The only thing piles of lives do is make it so the unfair difficulty is less annoying because there is less chance for you to run out, but it still doesn't take skill to remember a level layout.

Even so, Eggmanland is designed to challenge the player, but not in any way you shouldn’t already know how to handle.

This is an objectively false statement. There are sections in Eggmanland where you can not physically see stuff that will wreck your shit until your shit has already been wrecked. Not to mention the increasingly BS QTEs that occur. How am I supposed to be prepared for something that I sometimes cannot see coming?

No death is ‘cheap’ in this game; everything can be countered, if only you know how.

The problem is to know how you essentially have to do the same sort of prep work that people who do speed runs do.

So, next time you die, spare a thought for all the developers who worked so hard to kill you.

Fake difficulty takes considerably less work to implement than real challenge. Any idiot can make a level that is cheap. I could edit Emerald Hill from Sonic 2 in five minutes and make it the most difficult level in the game, yet set it up in just the right way that someone could technically beat it if they died enough times. That doesn't mean the difficulty would be fair, or that it would take skill to actually beat it. In some respects, the Sonic series has this problem made even easier to do because of the speed aspect.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Tornado

[Hazuki Heartwood]

As long as it doesn't have shit like the medals, I'm fine

Really? I love things like metals, sonic emblems, and achievements. It adds optional challenges to the game and replay value, other then "Just get to the end with all the emeralds and that's it." I wouldn't mind things such as unlockables for getting S ranks and stuff. Things like that make the game fun, IMO.

[Marcello]

But the medals weren't optional. You needed them to get to the later levels in Unleashed. I love optional stuff, though. :-/

[Blue Blood]

But the medals weren't optional. You needed them to get to the later levels in Unleashed. I love optional stuff, though. :-/

Sun and Moon Medals weren't an issue for most of the game and by the time you started collecting them rigorously it was only for extra stages. The Soleanna Medals were a much better format though. (Just so long as they serve a purpose)

[Ebby]

Nonsense, Sonic Unleashed is a very well designed game. Lives are a perfectly reasonable way of making a level fairer; mistakes to do happen, a few extra lives are enough to make an unbeatable level merely difficult.

I agree.... mostly. I was very happy that they DID place unavoidable extra lives that always come back, but that still doesn't make the level easier. As it says above, you can still die half way in the level by messing up on a button combination. Thinking about that... I did see the "game over" screen HALF WAY in Eggmanland even with a damned good amount of lives.

Even so, Eggmanland is designed to challenge the player, but not in any way you shouldn’t already know how to handle. No death is ‘cheap’ in this game; everything can be countered, if only you know how. Sonic Team combined elements from every aspect of the game into a single level; we have the bobsled alongside the rockets from Dragon Road, not to mention a significant amount of platforming. Besides, Eggmanland is still rendered with the Hedgehog Engine; it is a beautiful if surreal level, perfect for showing off each esoteric trap. So, next time you die, spare a thought for all the developers who worked so hard to kill you.

Hmm, tight-roping has to be the cheapest part of this entire game. In later levels, it feels like you were just meant to die in balancing sections period. And if Eggmanland's balancing on pipes challenges weren't so cheap in one's opinion, then try Dragon Road Act 2. Balancing with OBJECTS, and going BACK AND FORTH. A challenge is to be enjoyable, but I've always found this to be cheap, aggravating, and not enjoyable in the least.

But besides the "balancing werehog" sections in Eggmanland, those horrible button sequences (6 buttons in 1.5 seconds! GO!), AND THE BOBSLED OF DEATH it's just... NOT THAT HARD. I totally agree with you. The level is made to kill you and it does that. A couple of plays through it and it's not bad at all. It's just not. In fact, most of the game isn't so bad. I made through most of it in a week and on average it takes me a good month to beat a game. I would never say it's hard.

I still say Sonic 1's Labyrinth Zone is one of the most evil and most cheap things ever. There are an unnecessary amount of traps, and many in water, and the last boss is too hard. I was in shock the day I found out you didn't have to HIT it. You just have to come out ALIVE. To this day, I haven't beaten that boss without cheating.

[jonathan]

Eggmanland was pretty cheap ill admit that, but so were a number of the classic levels. Chemical plant zone use to kill me and often times still does because I run into the freaking oil unexpectedly not foreseeing the oil on the screen until its to late. I would often die right before fighting Eggman because I would run and fall through the trick floors and automatically die. Same with Metropolis zone and all those stupid Mantis things I would run into while trying to attain what all players attempt to, SPEED.

[Tornado]

Keep in mind that Sonic 2 also has the EPIC "fuck you and your chaos emeralds" pit, plus a good portion of Aquatic Ruin, so Sonic 2 isn't the brightest spot in the series in that respect no matter what level you are playing.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Tornado