Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And then IGN people will finally shut up, kids who like colorful games will be awestruck, veteran Sega fans will rejoice, classic Sonic fans will have heart attacks (as I know I will), and everyone in the world will be in peace with eachother, except for modern fanboys who will claim this as the "Dark Ages of Sonic". =P

Now Azukara, you should know full and well that not all modern fanboys are going to claim this one game as the "Dark Ages of Sonic" especially if they've read the interview.

And your not making yourself any better than the ones who are, as you sound just as arrogant when making that comment towards them. We as a fanbase could do better growing out of this resentment between Classic and Modern fans, but neither side as a whole would gain anything with these potshots at each other.

Edited November 29, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[azoo]

It was all in play, sheesh. =P Besides, I know how that is fighting fuel for them, but I've already heard it all. People are angry that modern Sonic might not be coming back, they're mad that the in-depth stories might be going away, and they're barking at us because "yoo jurkz r finlly gittin wut u wantd".

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm tired of seeing trying to see modern and classic fans work together as I am of seeing them fight ruthlessly. There's no end to it; as the two ends of the franchise are so flipping different it's unbelievable.

[ShadiWulf]

It was all in play, sheesh. =P Besides, I know how that is fighting fuel for them, but I've already heard it all. People are angry that modern Sonic might not be coming back, they're mad that the in-depth stories might be going away, and they're barking at us because "yoo jurkz r finlly gittin wut u wantd".

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm tired of seeing trying to see modern and classic fans work together as I am of seeing them fight ruthlessly. There's no end to it; as the two ends of the franchise are so flipping different it's unbelievable.

Thats why Mike Hayes has said they will be creating two different kinds of Sonic games from now on.

the Retro Plus Plus type games for the people that like the old Sonic Games (mainly adults)

and the 3D games for people who like the current games (mainly kids)

Pretty obvious you can't make both audiences happy with the same game.

[azoo]

Which is exactly my point. You can't just have checkered hills and cartoony character designs and lighthearted romps through South Island, and also have uber-edginess, dark themes, monster-of-the-week, tons of story-driven characters, guns and humanxhedgehog relationships in one game. It's just like trying to get Mario and/or Alex Kidd and fuse it with Halo/GTA. It just doesn't work.

That's why I'm glad Sega is going to make one classic, and then one modern. It suits both sides of the party without interfering with each other's views on the series. Thus, we could have a fanbase that won't have to complain at each other constantly because we'll each be getting what we want.

[ShadiWulf]

Which is exactly my point. You can't just have checkered hills and cartoony character designs and lighthearted romps through South Island, and also have uber-edginess, dark themes, monster-of-the-week, tons of story-driven characters, guns and humanxhedgehog relationships in one game. It's just like trying to get Mario and/or Alex Kidd and fuse it with Halo/GTA. It just doesn't work.

That's why I'm glad Sega is going to make one classic, and then one modern. It suits both sides of the party without interfering with each other's views on the series. Thus, we could have a fanbase that won't have to complain at each other constantly because we'll each be getting what we want.

That's how I see it too. I don't see it as a bad thing. I don't understand how anyone can see it as a bad thing. Sonic fanbase is unique and it needs to be treated in an unique way =P I would go far as calling it the most complex videogame fanbase there is.

People who say SEGA can make one game to satisfy everyone don't realize how bitchy either side of the fanbase spectrum gets if they the fans don't like something about a certain game. =P

Edited November 29, 2009 by ShadiWulf

[azoo]

Just watch, before we know it the forums will be seperated in the "Sonic" discussion sections between "Classic Sonic Discussion" and "Modern Sonic Discussion". =P

Hey, as long as it gets us good games I'm fine.

[ShadiWulf]

Just watch, before we know it the forums will be seperated in the "Sonic" discussion sections between "Classic Sonic Discussion" and "Modern Sonic Discussion". =P

Hey, as long as it gets us good games I'm fine.

Haha, that would be epic win if they did that on the SEGA forums.

[azoo]

"Classic Sonic Discussion: Talk about the Genesis games (Sonic 1 - Sonic 3 & Knuckles), Sonic CD, Chaotix, Adventure 1 and Needlemouse"

"Modern Sonic Discussion: Talk about SA2 through... everything else"

XD Although I don't think things would really get as bad as that, it's still hilarious to think about.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Azukara

[ShadiWulf]

"Classic Sonic Discussion: Talk about the Genesis games (Sonic 1 - Sonic 3 & Knuckles), Sonic CD, Chaotix, Adventure 1 and Needlemouse"

"Modern Sonic Discussion: Talk about SA2 through... everything else"

XD Although I don't think things would really get as bad as that, it's still hilarious to think about.

Hah, yeah. They already have individual boards for each game though. If anything Needlemouse will just get it's own board in the Sonic section.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It was all in play, sheesh. =P

How the heck am I suppose to know that?

That emoticon could very well be a taunt to those you were messing around with. Luckily, I wasn't one of those to go off on you on how this game would be "teh dark aijez".

Besides, I know how that is fighting fuel for them, but I've already heard it all. People are angry that modern Sonic might not be coming back, they're mad that the in-depth stories might be going away, and they're barking at us because "yoo jurkz r finlly gittin wut u wantd".

They should know at this point that modern Sonic is far from gone, in-depth stories are here to stay, but I've barely heard much of them complaining about "yoo jurkz finlly gittin wut u wantd" atleast not without someone from their own side telling them to hush and quit being so oversensitive. I've usually been one of those people telling them off when this topic first started.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm tired of seeing trying to see modern and classic fans work together as I am of seeing them fight ruthlessly. There's no end to it; as the two ends of the franchise are so flipping different it's unbelievable.

Better they work together than to have them rip at each other's throats. You can actually get some good results done that way and achieve a bond instead of segregating them for somehow being "unequal" to each other. There are a lot of elements from both ends of the franchise where they are similar. They aren't so different that it's unbelievable.

Which is exactly my point. You can't just have checkered hills and cartoony character designs and lighthearted romps through South Island, and also have uber-edginess, dark themes, monster-of-the-week, tons of story-driven characters, guns and humanxhedgehog relationships in one game. It's just like trying to get Mario and/or Alex Kidd and fuse it with Halo/GTA. It just doesn't work.

It most certainly can work if those developing the games could get their heads straight and stop jumping off the cliff with ideas completely different and balance the elements from the best of both worlds. The only reason it's not working is because the developers fail to do just that and then some. They haven't tried much of that without tilting the balance in favor of one-side or the other.

I seriously mean no offense to you when I say this, Azukara, but this logic of how it "doesn't work" is a truckload of bullshit when it hasn't even been attempted. If anything, it's like trying to take Mario and/or Alex Kidd and fussing it with Ratchet and Clank and Sly Cooper. Dark themes, Uber-edginess, monster-of-the-week, tons of story-driven characters, guns and mixed species relationships are not limited to games such as Halo or GTA. I'm a firm believer of "where there's a will, there's a way", so I absolutely refuse to believe that there is anything preventing Sonic from combining all those elements in a well made game. I don't think I need to remind anyone of two key words that can allow this to be possible.

(By the way, the Mario series also has a bit of a humanxanimal relationship if we want to throw in Bowser's attraction to Princess Peach)

Edited November 29, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[azoo]

How the heck am I suppose to know that?

I guess I forgot people can't tell tone of voice or thought through nothing but text.

That emoticon could very well be a taunt to those you were messing around with. Luckily, I wasn't one of those to go off on you on how this game would be "teh dark aijez".

Oh yeah, that day people were lucky I was in class, because if I wasn't I would've been popping caps in some mugs.

They should know at this point that modern Sonic is far from gone, in-depth stories are here to stay, but I've barely heard much of them complaining about "yoo jurkz finlly gittin wut u wantd" atleast not without someone from their own side telling them to hush and quit being so oversensitive. I've usually been one of those people telling them off when this topic first started.

I heard some of that stuff from random people all over, in random places, including Retro. Yes, Sonic RETRO. Plus, I just read through the first pages of this topic and I saw quite a bit of people go BAAAWWW at the fact that it was 2D alone, let alone the fact this could be a retro revival we'll have going on. (and I did see a couple throw fits over that.) I'm not calling names, nor do I intend to, but to say it didn't happen much is silly.

Better they work together than to have them rip at each other's throats. You can actually get some good results done that way and achieve a bond instead of segregating them for somehow being "unequal" to each other. There are a lot of elements from both ends of the franchise where they are similar. They aren't so different that it's unbelievable.

They barely share anything besides the fact that Sonic's blue and fast, Tails is his sidekick fox friend that has two tails he could fly with, and that Dr. Eggman is the leading villian, and the existance of Knuckles, Amy, and the Chaos Emeralds. And when it comes to gameplay, the only real similarities is the fact that they both have rings, loops, and checkpoints.

It most certainly can work if those developing the games could get their heads straight and stop jumping off the cliff with ideas completely different and balance the elements from the best of both worlds. The only reason it's not working is because the developers fail to do just that and then some. They haven't tried much of that without tilting the balance in favor of one-side or the other.

I'd rather see Sega try to stick to the ordinary traditional Sonic formula for a couple of games. Now that would be something completely different and for the better, because we really don't see those kind of things anymore.

I seriously mean no offense to you when I say this, Azukara, but this logic of how it "doesn't work" is a truckload of bullshit when it hasn't even been attempted. If anything, it's like trying to take Mario and/or Alex Kidd and fussing it with Ratchet and Clank and Sly Cooper. Dark themes, Uber-edginess, monster-of-the-week, tons of story-driven characters, guns and mixed species relationships are not limited to games such as Halo or GTA. I'm a firm believer of "where there's a will, there's a way", so I absolutely refuse to believe that there is anything preventing Sonic from combining all those elements in a well made game. I don't think I need to remind anyone of two key words that can allow this to be possible.

The question is, why does Sonic out of all franchises have to go towards overly-serious, deep, and complex directions in every game? If Mario can succeed and remain solid quality after so many years of the same lightheartedness and overall design, why can't Sonic do the same? Sure, I don't want the same game over and over again, but why must Sonic go off into "dark and edginess"? Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper are just themselves: Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper material. They were started off of edginess and darkness (although not necessarily serious), and they've remained that way because that's the way their series' were meant to be. Trying to take the environment and style of the classics and take it in a complete U-turn like it's been (arguably) doing since 2001 isn't the best idea. Sometimes (and especially in most platformers), simplicity and conservativity (sp?) is key.

(By the way, the Mario series also has a bit of a humanxanimal relationship if we want to throw in Bowser's attraction to Princess Peach)

There's a difference in blatant comedic effect and Elise's dramatic "caring" for Sonic (and likewise).

Edited November 29, 2009 by Azukara

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I heard some of that stuff from random people all over, in random places, including Retro. Yes, Sonic RETRO.

That's...quite a surprise in Retro of all places.

They barely share anything besides the fact that Sonic's blue and fast, Tails is his sidekick fox friend that has two tails he could fly with, and that Dr. Eggman is the leading villian, and the existance of Knuckles, Amy, and the Chaos Emeralds. And when it comes to gameplay, the only real similarities is the fact that they both have rings, loops, and checkpoints.

There is also the level themes and environments, the music (okay that's somewhat of a weak one), the technology that Eggman uses. You'd be surprised of what you don't notice.

I'd rather see Sega try to stick to the ordinary traditional Sonic formula for a couple of games. Now that would be something completely different and for the better, because we really don't see those kind of things anymore.

It wouldn't be different seeing as they've done it before in the past, but it would be something good if done the way it was in the past. And it can possibly work for 3D games if they made a solution for it to work.

The question is, why does Sonic out of all franchises have to go towards overly-serious, deep, and complex directions in every game? If Mario can succeed and remain solid quality after so many years of the same lightheartedness and overall design, why can't Sonic do the same? Sure, I don't want the same game over and over again, but why must Sonic go off into "dark and edginess"?

Who said Sonic has to do it for every game? Better yet, why can't he combine serious and deep plots with the more lighthearted ones? I'm not sure of your take on complex directions, but I'm one who enjoys a little bit of complexity to where it has you guessing but you can still follow the story. Mario has done it well in his RPGs when it comes to handling complexity while still being easy to follow.

The problem with Sonic doing the same as Mario is the fact that Mario and Sonic were designed with different standards when they were rivals. There were some similarities, but there were also some major differences between the two franchise that gave them their identities. The "dark and edginess" was actually a key factor for Sonic to run circles around his rival during his earlier years, but I'll admit it isn't the same as how they've done it in some of the other titles. Nowadays, it varies from game to game, it ranges from cheesy and unbearable in Heroes to dark and ridiculous in ShTH. But Sonic had more of an edge to him than Mario, and that's one reason why he did so well back then. His edginess back then is the equivalent to the standard level of edginess expected in a lot of other games of today.

Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper are just themselves: Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper material. They were started off of edginess and darkness (although not necessarily serious), and they've remained that way because that's the way their series' were meant to be.

Now I'm gonna warn you that if you can say that for Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper for that being themselves, then there's no point in using Mario as an example as it was just for himself: Mario material. We can't compare Sonic to anything in that case, unless it's trying to be a rip of something, like how Shadow somehow tried to be a rip of Halo.

That and Ratchet and Sly have both varied the way they handle edginess and darkness in the games. Most of Ratchet & Clank's games have actually been light-hearted and edgy, yet they can do well in trying to get away with a plot that can actually have quite a grip on the emotional level (although they don't do it too much in contrast to those that where made to be emotionally gripping), and they can make a much more serious plot without lossing its identity if we look at Ratchet: Deadlocked. In fact, if we were to take a look at the levels in the series' games, they're a lot similar to Sonic's: they start off light hearted at the beginning, then varies from lighter tones to darker ones as you go on, and the final level in some games have an "end-of-the-world" atmosphere to them on a much more ravaged and/or hellish landscape.

Now Sly Cooper in contrast is slightly darker, yet just as goofy and edgy as Ratchet & Clank. Even if the atmosphere was dark, serious, and scary (and there is a level that will probably make you feel just that way in Sly 2) they can maintain a sense of goofiness and humor that blends so well for a cartoon series such as itself. It plays a lot more with the player's mind when it comes to the plots than Ratchet & Clank, and it makes a much bigger tug on the emotional level as well when it comes to feelings of love and the sense of betrayal and revenge than R&C as well. But despite the darker, crime noir tone it has it takes quite different take on dark and edgy themes than what we would come to know in more recognized titles such as GTA and Halo.

Nonetheless, just because a series started one way doesn't mean they have to stay that way. Mario could very well have an expanded story and cast with the characters he has, with some edginess to them, and he could very well succeed in it.

The way Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper manage to do well with how they handle their edginess and dark tone is that they balance it with humor and silliness, which many people really enjoy to have in their lives. And you can make such a great story when you add a fair balance of humor to keep from taking things too seriously, just as you can make a bad one that screws itself and makes things laughable when it was meant to be serious.

Trying to take the environment and style of the classics and take it in a complete U-turn like it's been (arguably) doing since 2001 isn't the best idea. Sometimes (and especially in most platformers), simplicity and conservativity (sp?) is key.

At the same time, creativity and execution is key if you want to take the series to another level and make it more than what it's predecessors were. We don't need to forget about where Sonic started (in fact we shouldn't forget where he started), and we can revisit the past at whenever point, but at the same time we can't let that dictate what can and cannot be allowed. Nothing wrong with a little change and a little complexity (because too much can do some harm than good) to spice things up. Now how you go about it depends entirely on how it's done, and for every mistake made you can learn a lesson on how to improve it (and in some cases what shouldn't have been done in the first place if, and I mean IF there absolutely no way to fix it).

It took creativity to give birth to the franchise and it's identity, it can take creativity to expand the franchise and still keep it's identity.

There's a difference in blatant comedic effect and Elise's dramatic "caring" for Sonic (and likewise).

A mixed species relationship is still a mixed species relationship, no matter what the form is.

Edited November 29, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[azoo]

That's...quite a surprise in Retro of all places.

Yeah. Although it wasn't necessarily much from their crowd (about maybe 2 or 3 people), it was still surprising they'd be complaining on a site made for classic Sonic fans. =P Of course, I would prefer this be the Genesis games but in 3D, but I don't mind what it is (or what it's supposed to be).

There is also the level themes and environments, the music (okay that's somewhat of a weak one), the technology that Eggman uses. You'd be surprised of what you don't notice.

When I place my standards, I (as you probably know) put post-Adventure 1 as the line between the classics and the modern games. Really the robots Eggman used in the classics were also used in SA1 and such, but by SA2 they were mostly dropped in favor of the GUN robots (besides a Kiki or a Unidus lying around somewhere). As for level themes, that was dropped around SA2 as well, where they decided that they only make levels relevant to the storyline (not a good idea, mind you). Sure, Heroes brought back the level environments, but it faded away almost immediately after Takashi Izuka said "LOL lets make a Shadow game". Plus, robot designs didn't even go for that either, as we didn't have uniquely built badniks, instead we just got the same robots with minor attachments on each. Same goes for Shadow in that case. And although Sega tried to bring varied robots back along with level themes in Nextgen, it was denounced entirely by the bad gameplay that engulfed it. Unleashed returned with an "upgraded" Heroes same-old robot (the only way to really upgrade it is to make them all EggRobos =P), and once again broke the flow of traditional levels because they felt that for some reason Sonic's world must look just like ours and not contain any bit of originality whatsoever.

It wouldn't be different seeing as they've done it before in the past, but it would be something good if done the way it was in the past. And it can possibly work for 3D games if they made a solution for it to work.

Now this I see we could agree on.

You see, that's the thing that bothers me the most: the gameplay. Why is Sega experimenting with so many other gameplay styles behind Sonic in 3D? There's not much to it in order to do it right, because all it is is Sonic Adventure 1 plus moar ball physics and better collision. =P

Who said Sonic has to do it for every game? Better yet, why can't he combine serious and deep plots with the more lighthearted ones? I'm not sure of your take on complex directions, but I'm one who enjoys a little bit of complexity to where it has you guessing but you can still follow the story. Mario has done it well in his RPGs when it comes to handling complexity while still being easy to follow.

But the Mario RPGs are left to just that, the RPGs. Maybe Sega could build upon making the deep storyline stuff for the next Chronicles? Besides, RPGs almost always have detailed storylines, no matter what game it is.

The problem with Sonic doing the same as Mario is the fact that Mario and Sonic were designed with different standards when they were rivals. There were some similarities, but there were also some major differences between the two franchise that gave them their identities. The "dark and edginess" was actually a key factor for Sonic to run circles around his rival during his earlier years, but I'll admit it isn't the same as how they've done it in some of the other titles. Nowadays, it varies from game to game, it ranges from cheesy and unbearable in Heroes to dark and ridiculous in ShTH. But Sonic had more of an edge to him than Mario, and that's one reason why he did so well back then. His edginess back then is the equivalent to the standard level of edginess expected in a lot of other games of today.

Well, of course he has a distinct edgy flare to him, but he still sort of remains in the lighthearted cartoony catagory. Although, the reason why Sonic was so edgy wasn't because of complexity or deep storylines. It was because Sonic was 100x faster, contained lots of explosions, contained lots of robots, had 80s synth pop styled music, and featured a hedgehog with a semi-anti-hero attitude. But even though these things existed in the games, Sonic still had practically the same level of lightheartedness as Mario did, notably because of it's simplicity, it's colorfulness, and it's universal cartoony charm.

Now I'm gonna warn you that if you can say that for Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper for that being themselves, then there's no point in using Mario as an example as it was just for himself: Mario material. We can't compare Sonic to anything in that case, unless it's trying to be a rip of something, like how Shadow somehow tried to be a rip of Halo.

I never said Shadow tried to be a rip of Halo. Oh yeah, and read above for response to what I said about Sonic's orignality. =P

That and Ratchet and Sly have both varied the way they handle edginess and darkness in the games. Most of Ratchet & Clank's games have actually been light-hearted and edgy, yet they can do well in trying to get away with a plot that can actually have quite a grip on the emotional level (although they don't do it too much in contrast to those that where made to be emotionally gripping), and they can make a much more serious plot without lossing its identity if we look at Ratchet: Deadlocked. In fact, if we were to take a look at the levels in the series' games, they're a lot similar to Sonic's: they start off light hearted at the beginning, then varies from lighter tones to darker ones as you go on, and the final level in some games have an "end-of-the-world" atmosphere to them on a much more ravaged and/or hellish landscape.

Now Sly Cooper in contrast is slightly darker, yet just as goofy and edgy as Ratchet & Clank. Even if the atmosphere was dark, serious, and scary (and there is a level that will probably make you feel just that way in Sly 2) they can maintain a sense of goofiness and humor that blends so well for a cartoon series such as itself. It plays a lot more with the player's mind when it comes to the plots than Ratchet & Clank, and it makes a much bigger tug on the emotional level as well when it comes to feelings of love and the sense of betrayal and revenge than R&C as well. But despite the darker, crime noir tone it has it takes quite different take on dark and edgy themes than what we would come to know in more recognized titles such as GTA and Halo.

But how come just because Sonic's moving along with the ages that he should cope to these things? Why can't you just have it like the Mario games, where the basics are kept but a new (not dumb, actually cool) twist happens and Sonic must take it on?

Nonetheless, just because a series started one way doesn't mean they have to stay that way. Mario could very well have an expanded story and cast with the characters he has, with some edginess to them, and he could very well succeed in it.

You must have it out for simplicity in a series, do you?

The way Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper manage to do well with how they handle their edginess and dark tone is that they balance it with humor and silliness, which many people really enjoy to have in their lives. And you can make such a great story when you add a fair balance of humor to keep from taking things too seriously, just as you can make a bad one that screws itself and makes things laughable when it was meant to be serious.

Still, the point is that they were made to be darker than Sonic games were. Why must you say that Sonic should try to strive for their quality whenever the darker grittier environments is the wrong direction?

At the same time, creativity and execution is key if you want to take the series to another level and make it more than what it's predecessors were. We don't need to forget about where Sonic started (in fact we shouldn't forget where he started), and we can revisit the past at whenever point, but at the same time we can't let that dictate what can and cannot be allowed. Nothing wrong with a little change and a little complexity (because too much can do some harm than good) to spice things up. Now how you go about it depends entirely on how it's done, and for every mistake made you can learn a lesson on how to improve it (and in some cases what shouldn't have been done in the first place if, and I mean IF there absolutely no way to fix it).

Creativity, I can handle. That is, unless it's plan is to alter everything about the series.

It took creativity to give birth to the franchise and it's identity, it can take creativity to expand the franchise and still keep it's identity.

Once again, keyword creativity. You must notice that creativity won't save Sonic unless it's done by the guidelines. And when I say "guidelines", I mean what the classics left us with to work upon.

A mixed species relationship is still a mixed species relationship, no matter what the form is.

That wasn't my point either. Since Bowser and Peach's relationship is meant to be funny, it's not serious whatsoever and acts as a funny running gag for series (as it normally should be funny and none taken seriously for a dragon-turtle beast to go head over heels for a human princess). Sonic & Elise's relationship was made seriously, and based almost as if it didn't seem odd to have humanxanimal relationships (unlike how Mario does it). BowserxPeach is supposed to be funny, SonicxElise was meant to be 4 srs.

EDIT: I don't know anymore. I just got my hopes up on a Sonic game like you said about, only to find out it was a peice of garbage (gameplay AND storyline-wise), and I'm scared to see Sega try that area ever again because I fear they'll just screw it over like they did back in 2006.... but that's not saying I liked Elise's existance or anything back when. =P

Edited November 29, 2009 by Azukara

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

When I place my standards, I (as you probably know) put post-Adventure 1 as the line between the classics and the modern games.

The similar level themes and such even exist beyond where your standards lie. Unleashed has levels that are similar to SA1 and S3&K. But I'm really just filling in holes here.

Really the robots Eggman used in the classics were also used in SA1 and such, but by SA2 they were mostly dropped in favor of the GUN robots (besides a Kiki or a Unidus lying around somewhere). As for level themes, that was dropped around SA2 as well, where they decided that they only make levels relevant to the storyline (not a good idea, mind you). Sure, Heroes brought back the level environments, but it faded away almost immediately after Takashi Izuka said "LOL lets make a Shadow game". Plus, robot designs didn't even go for that either, as we didn't have uniquely built badniks, instead we just got the same robots with minor attachments on each. Same goes for Shadow in that case. And although Sega tried to bring varied robots back along with level themes in Nextgen, it was denounced entirely by the bad gameplay that engulfed it. Unleashed returned with an "upgraded" Heroes same-old robot (the only way to really upgrade it is to make them all EggRobos =P), and once again broke the flow of traditional levels because they felt that for some reason Sonic's world must look just like ours and not contain any bit of originality whatsoever.

I sort of agree, and at the same time I'm kinda against this. Me, I would love to see some varied robots depending on the environment, say robot fishes and sharks or manta rays in the water (or in the air if we refer to the Egg Fleet in Heroes), bird and Eagle robots patrolling the skies, a Phoenix and Dragon robot in a Chinese setting (you can't tell me that wouldn't be badass). I'd actually like to see creativity be put in the robots depending on the setting.

At the same time, I actually favor the newer robots. Primarily the Nextgen ones when it comes to there being a basic infantry class robot. I love the sleek looking robots in that game, as well as the style of them that shows that they are highly advanced and effective robots.

My solution to this, as you already know (or probably not since I'm so abstract), is to put that stuff together. Why not have a Kiki robot swing around in the trees keeping an eye from above while the Nextgen robots are patroling the ground looking for Sonic, and when he does show Kiki bombs the hell out of him while the Nextgen bots open fire? Or why not have the varied animal robots in the stages look somewhat sleek and effective against Sonic? I'd favor the first idea if no one would like the second idea.

You see, that's the thing that bothers me the most: the gameplay. Why is Sega experimenting with so many other gameplay styles behind Sonic in 3D? There's not much to it in order to do it right, because all it is is Sonic Adventure 1 plus moar ball physics and better collision. =P

Like I said, they jump off the cliff with ideas. And even worse is that they make it oppose Sonic rather than complement him. The werehog idea, minus the story involving it, could be done without slowing down Sonic and giving him some kind of chain or rope like device to have him swing around places and grab things from afar. And since it has similarities to God of War, that chain device could double as a weapon to use when in combat. But that's if they did it without having the story as it was.

But the Mario RPGs are left to just that, the RPGs. Maybe Sega could build upon making the deep storyline stuff for the next Chronicles? Besides, RPGs almost always have detailed storylines, no matter what game it is.

I know what Mario RPGs are left to, but I would like to see that outside of the RPGs. Mario makes minimum use of other characters besides Mario, Peach, Bowser and occassionally Bowser Jr and Luigi, it would be something if they used the cast that they have in the spin-offs.

Sega can build upon deep storylines in RPGs or in the Main games, there's no rule or even a guideline that tells them how and where to do their deep stories.

Well, of course he has a distinct edgy flare to him, but he still sort of remains in the lighthearted cartoony catagory. Although, the reason why Sonic was so edgy wasn't because of complexity or deep storylines. It was because Sonic was 100x faster, contained lots of explosions, contained lots of robots, had 80s synth pop styled music, and featured a hedgehog with a semi-anti-hero attitude. But even though these things existed in the games, Sonic still had practically the same level of lightheartedness as Mario did, notably because of it's simplicity, it's colorfulness, and it's universal cartoony charm.

Now I never said Sonic's edginess stemed from complexity or deep stories at all. And I would argue on it's simplicity as back then stories weren't expected or even cared about beyond "Go stop X villian." Now, it's a whole new league. We don't need complex and deep, but we don't neccesarily need to be simple and in my view, shallow.

I never said Shadow tried to be a rip of Halo. Oh yeah, and read above for response to what I said about Sonic's orignality. =P

I said Shadow tried to be a rip of Halo, not you.

And what does Sonic's originality have to do with this?

But how come just because Sonic's moving along with the ages that he should cope to these things? Why can't you just have it like the Mario games, where the basics are kept but a new (not dumb, actually cool) twist happens and Sonic must take it on?

If he has it like the Mario games, then he's not Sonic.

When Sonic moves along with the ages, he needs to make his own material unique, not have it like the Mario games. Remember, things in the Mario games are just that: Mario material. Of course there's nothing wrong with inspiration to help push ideas, but doing in like another series is essentially making this series just like it, and we want this series to be "Sonic" (a GOOD Sonic), and not like Mario.

You must have it out for simplicity in a series, do you?

There's nothing wrong with being simple, but there is a problem with being inflexible. The way you have things is incredibly rigid the way I see it, and I'd like the series to be more like water and less like stone.

Still, the point is that they were made to be darker than Sonic games were.

Sly Cooper to an extent was, but not Ratchet & Clank. And the humor more than makes them on par with Sonic despite a slightly darker tone with one of the games. Better them than Halo or GTA.

Why must you say that Sonic should try to strive for their quality whenever the darker grittier environments is the wrong direction?

Because it's not THE wrong direction, and it's direction that is more than possible to reach. It's only wrong when it is handled in the wrong fashion, like how they did with ShTH with it's over seriousness and Heroes with the silliness.

Creativity, I can handle. That is, unless it's plan is to alter everything about the series.

There's nothing wrong with altering anything so long as you do it to fix a problem or to further improve something. It's good to be flexible in handling things.

Once again, keyword creativity. You must notice that creativity won't save Sonic unless it's done by the guidelines. And when I say "guidelines", I mean what the classics left us with to work upon.

Those "guidelines" tell us how Sonic can be identified as "Sonic", but they don't tell us that we shouldn't be allowed to try other ideas so long as you can arrange it to fit in and maintain the series' identity. They never said a darker atmosphere is the wrong direction, they never said an expanded plot is bad for the series, they never said more characters shouldn't be allowed to be main staple characters, they never said we couldn't have real world elements with surreal ones (and I'm just throwing things in here at this point), they never even said anything on the "dos" and "don'ts" of Sonic.

Like I said, we don't want the series to be inflexible where it's not allowed try other things, and those things include trying a darker atmosphere, a more immersive plot, etc.

That wasn't my point either. Since Bowser and Peach's relationship is meant to be funny, it's not serious whatsoever and acts as a funny running gag for series (as it normally should be funny and none taken seriously for a dragon-turtle beast to go head over heels for a human princess). Sonic & Elise's relationship was made seriously, and based almost as if it didn't seem odd to have humanxanimal relationships (unlike how Mario does it). BowserxPeach is supposed to be funny, SonicxElise was meant to be 4 srs.

My point was that no matter how funny, serious, or ridiculous it is, it is still a humanxanimal relationship. We can't go excusing other series for doing it just because they took a different approach, or a different way to "ex-e-cute" it.

EDIT: I don't know anymore. I just got my hopes up on a Sonic game like you said about, only to find out it was a peice of garbage (gameplay AND storyline-wise), and I'm scared to see Sega try that area ever again because I fear they'll just screw it over like they did back in 2006.... but that's not saying I liked Elise's existance or anything back when. =P

I'm not scared of seeing them try something for the gameplay or storyline, because I know why they're doing a poor job at both. And there is a solution to fixing those problems, but dodging them isn't the answer or you won't even come to that solution. That's not to say you can't try to put things on hold until you come to that solution, but constantly stay away from it isn't not fixing anything.

Edited November 29, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tornado]

My point was that no matter how funny, serious, or ridiculous it is, it is still a humanxanimal relationship. We can't go excusing other series for doing it just because they took a different approach, or a different way to "ex-e-cute" it.

Actually, I'd have to take Azukara's side on this. I think the difference in presentation is far more than enough to make it acceptable for the Mario series and not acceptable for the Sonic series. Particularly when the game it was presented in was all up its ass in SRSLY anyways, which just drew more attention to it.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Tornado

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Actually, I'd have to take Azukara's side on this. I think the difference in presentation is far more than enough to make it acceptable for the Mario series and not acceptable for the Sonic series. Particularly when the game it was presented in was all up its ass in SRSLY anyways, which just drew more attention to it.

I'm not arguing how how it's acceptable, but rather that it's still in general a humanxanimal relationship. It's one of those things that Mario manages to get away with because of its presentation. I wouldn't argue that the way it was handled in the Sonic series was ass, but that doesn't keep the relationships in both series from having a common ground in what they are overall.

Edited November 29, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Indigo Rush]

Sonic should be a playable character. I know it's a long-shot, but if we all e-mail angry letters to SEGA, we might be able to get Sonic in as a cameo alongside Big the Cat and Tiddly the Muskrat.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Indigo Dude

[Marcello]

Are you stupid, Infigo? How can you think theres even a tiny chance Sonic will be in this game. Ts...

[azoo]

The similar level themes and such even exist beyond where your standards lie. Unleashed has levels that are similar to SA1 and S3&K. But I'm really just filling in holes here.

Well, they sort of do. I think it's okay to have sort of photorealism-esque levels, but not exact carbon copied places from real locations. I thought that was kind of silly because I usually see Sonic stages remaining as an original landscape, made with blends of realism and cartoony surrealism into one big cluster of colorful awesome. Making them real locations sort of takes away from the originality in the game's environments, and I think it's easy to say that Unleashed had the most realistic levels out of any Sonic game.

I sort of agree, and at the same time I'm kinda against this. Me, I would love to see some varied robots depending on the environment, say robot fishes and sharks or manta rays in the water (or in the air if we refer to the Egg Fleet in Heroes), bird and Eagle robots patrolling the skies, a Phoenix and Dragon robot in a Chinese setting (you can't tell me that wouldn't be badass). I'd actually like to see creativity be put in the robots depending on the setting.

At the same time, I actually favor the newer robots. Primarily the Nextgen ones when it comes to there being a basic infantry class robot. I love the sleek looking robots in that game, as well as the style of them that shows that they are highly advanced and effective robots.

My solution to this, as you already know (or probably not since I'm so abstract), is to put that stuff together. Why not have a Kiki robot swing around in the trees keeping an eye from above while the Nextgen robots are patroling the ground looking for Sonic, and when he does show Kiki bombs the hell out of him while the Nextgen bots open fire? Or why not have the varied animal robots in the stages look somewhat sleek and effective against Sonic? I'd favor the first idea if no one would like the second idea.

I agree with all of this. I would like to see classic badniks and Nextgen's mechs work together as one big force. Seeing Kikis, Orbinauts, Grounders, and Buzzbombers get mech-like makeovers (like Rhinotank) and fight right beside the E-Gunners, Bombers, E-Walkers, E-Guardians, so on so forth. Eggman's robots were just drop dead sexy in that game; everybody just doesn't wanna admit it. All of Eggman's robots nowadays should look like them, because anything's better than the same rotund robots over and over again.

Like I said, they jump off the cliff with ideas. And even worse is that they make it oppose Sonic rather than complement him. The werehog idea, minus the story involving it, could be done without slowing down Sonic and giving him some kind of chain or rope like device to have him swing around places and grab things from afar. And since it has similarities to God of War, that chain device could double as a weapon to use when in combat. But that's if they did it without having the story as it was.

I think that although the characters should have their own moves, they should be brought to a minimum. What I mean is that Sonic characters shouldn't have so many actions that it overfloods the basic point in the gameplay, which is what caused so many problem in the Adventures. Even with Tails having the tail swipe and flying, Knuckles with gliding, climbing, punching and digging, and Gamma with shooting and hovering (just showing as an example), the gameplay would still be about the basic "run-roll-jump" and speedy platforming that Sonic was known for. If it doesn't contain those things then it doesn't necessarily belong in a Sonic game.

I know what Mario RPGs are left to, but I would like to see that outside of the RPGs. Mario makes minimum use of other characters besides Mario, Peach, Bowser and occassionally Bowser Jr and Luigi, it would be something if they used the cast that they have in the spin-offs.

Sega can build upon deep storylines in RPGs or in the Main games, there's no rule or even a guideline that tells them how and where to do their deep stories.

I just don't like seeing the RPG route used that much for any games outside of RPGs. When I say that, I mean that there is over 10,000+ characters that all have development and intertwining relationships with eachother and etc. etc. etc. That's what I mean by "Sonic should be simple". There doesn't need to be that many characters in a game and none of them need super high amounts of development; in fact you can't really go wrong if you just leave the story to mostly Sonic and Eggman (and MAYBE Tails, if the story suits him). I just don't want to see where some characters get more development than Sonic himself.

Now I never said Sonic's edginess stemed from complexity or deep stories at all. And I would argue on it's simplicity as back then stories weren't expected or even cared about beyond "Go stop X villian." Now, it's a whole new league. We don't need complex and deep, but we don't neccesarily need to be simple and in my view, shallow.

I don't want shallow, I just don't believe it would be a good idea to have a storyline that breaks the flow of the gameplay. Sure, interaction with other characters is needed, but Sonic needs to be on the go and moving forward because that's the motive of the game. And for a game about moving forward, putting much effort into bigtime explanations or character depth doesn't really cut it. The characters that should be getting the most development should be Sonic and Eggman hands down, and have other characters gain some development, but leave it mostly to the hero and the villain.

If he has it like the Mario games, then he's not Sonic.

When Sonic moves along with the ages, he needs to make his own material unique, not have it like the Mario games. Remember, things in the Mario games are just that: Mario material. Of course there's nothing wrong with inspiration to help push ideas, but doing in like another series is essentially making this series just like it, and we want this series to be "Sonic" (a GOOD Sonic), and not like Mario.

Aw, shush you, taking my words and using them against me. =P

I want Sonic to take inspirations from Mario on how to be a good and simple series, not completely base the Sonic style around it.

Sly Cooper to an extent was, but not Ratchet & Clank. And the humor more than makes them on par with Sonic despite a slightly darker tone with one of the games. Better them than Halo or GTA.

Because it's not THE wrong direction, and it's direction that is more than possible to reach. It's only wrong when it is handled in the wrong fashion, like how they did with ShTH with it's over seriousness and Heroes with the silliness.

There's nothing wrong with altering anything so long as you do it to fix a problem or to further improve something. It's good to be flexible in handling things.

Those "guidelines" tell us how Sonic can be identified as "Sonic", but they don't tell us that we shouldn't be allowed to try other ideas so long as you can arrange it to fit in and maintain the series' identity. They never said a darker atmosphere is the wrong direction, they never said an expanded plot is bad for the series, they never said more characters shouldn't be allowed to be main staple characters, they never said we couldn't have real world elements with surreal ones (and I'm just throwing things in here at this point), they never even said anything on the "dos" and "don'ts" of Sonic.

Like I said, we don't want the series to be inflexible where it's not allowed try other things, and those things include trying a darker atmosphere, a more immersive plot, etc.

If I could see the Sonic franchise handle a decent balance between the edgy stuff like you mentioned and timeless cartoony charm like Mario, then I'll be impressed. I just think that no matter what Sega might just go overboard with it.

I'm not scared of seeing them try something for the gameplay or storyline, because I know why they're doing a poor job at both. And there is a solution to fixing those problems, but dodging them isn't the answer or you won't even come to that solution. That's not to say you can't try to put things on hold until you come to that solution, but constantly stay away from it isn't not fixing anything.

You're right, but still, that doesn't stop the fact I want Sega to pull a NSMBWii with Needlemouse ;P

And I would like to see Sonic have some of that sleek edge we saw in the previews for Nextgen, and the funny side to it like from Ratchet and Clank, but it shouldn't stray too far away from what the Sonic series has always been. Nextgen could've been just that, but the overdone melodrama, character overload, realistic humans, Elise, and the Flames of Disaster threw everything off. You know how much I would pay to see next-gen styled Sonic wiping out nextgen-styled Eggman's nextgen-styled mechs (with some revamped badniks), teasing the robots as he goes and acting like a goofball, in the middle of a giant open valley with semi-checkered yet photorealistic mountains, and the gameplay akin to a bugless SA1? That's my dream right there.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Azukara

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, they sort of do. I think it's okay to have sort of photorealism-esque levels, but not exact carbon copied places from real locations. I thought that was kind of silly because I usually see Sonic stages remaining as an original landscape, made with blends of realism and cartoony surrealism into one big cluster of colorful awesome. Making them real locations sort of takes away from the originality in the game's environments, and I think it's easy to say that Unleashed had the most realistic levels out of any Sonic game.

Unleashed wasn't too realistic in comparison to ShTh and Sonic 06. It was more like a blend of realism with...something, I can't put my finger on the word. That world was sort of caraturized (for lack of a better word) to fit the style that Sonic would look well in.

You have to admit that despite how it looks, Sonic blends perfectly (or atleast better) in Unleashed than how he did in Sonic 06.

I agree with all of this. I would like to see classic badniks and Nextgen's mechs work together as one big force. Seeing Kikis, Orbinauts, Grounders, and Buzzbombers get mech-like makeovers (like Rhinotank) and fight right beside the E-Gunners, Bombers, E-Walkers, E-Guardians, so on so forth. Eggman's robots were just drop dead sexy in that game; everybody just doesn't wanna admit it. All of Eggman's robots nowadays should look like them, because anything's better than the same rotund robots over and over again.

And here I thought I was the only one who thought that...

I think that although the characters should have their own moves, they should be brought to a minimum. What I mean is that Sonic characters shouldn't have so many actions that it overfloods the basic point in the gameplay, which is what caused so many problem in the Adventures. Even with Tails having the tail swipe and flying, Knuckles with gliding, climbing, punching and digging, and Gamma with shooting and hovering (just showing as an example), the gameplay would still be about the basic "run-roll-jump" and speedy platforming that Sonic was known for. If it doesn't contain those things then it doesn't necessarily belong in a Sonic game.

Well we don't want them to be like the fighting games, where pulling off an awesome combo is like trying to pull off a cheat code.

I'd favor a DMC-style platformer, where even the most complex moves are done depending on the sequence you press on a single button. Pretty much all of the sword combos in DMC were done with just pressing the Y/triangle button, and all it takes is the timing. That, and Sonic can do this kind of fighting while on the move. I'd like that sort of inspiration, but without it being too much like DMC (since DMC is just that: DMC material. )

But I'd want that in another game, since Needlemouse adheres to the Classics. Although I might be asking for a lot more than what can be handle...

I just don't like seeing the RPG route used that much for any games outside of RPGs. When I say that, I mean that there is over 10,000+ characters that all have development and intertwining relationships with eachother and etc. etc. etc. That's what I mean by "Sonic should be simple". There doesn't need to be that many characters in a game and none of them need super high amounts of development; in fact you can't really go wrong if you just leave the story to mostly Sonic and Eggman (and MAYBE Tails, if the story suits him). I just don't want to see where some characters get more development than Sonic himself.

Whoa...10,000+ characters. We can do a helluva lot with the ones we have already. 10,000 is just too much, we'd be diving from the atmosphere with that many characters. I can understand where you're coming from when you say that, but I don't think even Sonic Team would go to that route. Then again...

I don't want shallow, I just don't believe it would be a good idea to have a storyline that breaks the flow of the gameplay. Sure, interaction with other characters is needed, but Sonic needs to be on the go and moving forward because that's the motive of the game. And for a game about moving forward, putting much effort into bigtime explanations or character depth doesn't really cut it. The characters that should be getting the most development should be Sonic and Eggman hands down, and have other characters gain some development, but leave it mostly to the hero and the villain.

Bigtime explanations? You mean like how they do in a lot of animes where they do an attack and then tell their enemy exactly how they did their attack? Or in other situations, they think to themselves for two minutes on their strategies and how they had to attack their enemy? Or here's my favorite, they say the exact same thing several times in 5 mins.

Guy one:

"If it weren't for your shield in the way, I might not have been able to get through your defense. That's why I had to tell my troops to go around your shield and attack you from behind."

Guy two (to himself):

"I see. So he had to go around my shield to get to me. But if I could put up another shield behind me, he can't get another attack in. But then what do I do about the troops from behind me."

Guy Three:

"I'm impressed. Without the shield covering him from behind, he's completely vulnerable to attack. He's going to have to figure something out if he wants to stop that."

Yeah, no thanks. I'm with you there.

Character Depth can go a long way tho, that is if it's done well. And we all know what happens with something that falls short of that.

Aw, shush you, taking my words and using them against me. =P

Hey, you set yourself up for it.

I want Sonic to take inspirations from Mario on how to be a good and simple series, not completely base the Sonic style around it.

That's better...

If I could see the Sonic franchise handle a decent balance between the edgy stuff like you mentioned and timeless cartoony charm like Mario, then I'll be impressed. I just think that no matter what Sega might just go overboard with it.

It's possible, and I know a lot of people would be impressed, even me. But despite all that, Sega has to really step things up before they even try something like that. They got it down in the Adventures and Unleashed, now they need to really work on quality to step it up a level. And something like this isn't something I would expect to get right that easily since many folks lack the skill to handle it.

And I would like to see Sonic have some of that sleek edge we saw in the previews for Nextgen, and the funny side to it like from Ratchet and Clank, but it shouldn't stray too far away from what the Sonic series has always been. Nextgen could've been just that, but the overdone melodrama, character overload, realistic humans, Elise, and the Flames of Disaster threw everything off. You know how much I would pay to see next-gen styled Sonic wiping out nextgen-styled Eggman's nextgen-styled mechs (with some revamped badniks), teasing the robots as he goes and acting like a goofball, in the middle of a giant open valley with semi-checkered yet photorealistic mountains, and the gameplay akin to a bugless SA1? That's my dream right there.

And you pretty much read part of my mind with this.

[Semi-colon e]

I have to say I agree with half 06 style and half animal etc robots. I like both styles and it'd be perfect. I loved the big lazer robots that come down in 06. They wouldn't have to necessarily take 4 hits but they could be used as like mini-boss style robots that appear every so often. Real and surreal mix is the way to go. I think SA1 handled this the best. You have realistic locales but so much random crap going on and it's just trying to be as cool as possible with all the stuff you do.

[azoo]

I like to think of the realism/surrealism balance like how Green Hill Zone was shown in Sonic Chronicles:

Link here because the picture is humongous

Still maintaining the classic colorfulness and checkered coastal liking, but also containing realistic undertones like rock formations and more natural looking flora, and overall the two styles blend to make absolutely beautiful scenery that goes perfect in a Sonic game, especially a more modern one.

Unleashed wasn't too realistic in comparison to ShTh and Sonic 06. It was more like a blend of realism with...something, I can't put my finger on the word. That world was sort of caraturized (for lack of a better word) to fit the style that Sonic would look well in.

You have to admit that despite how it looks, Sonic blends perfectly (or atleast better) in Unleashed than how he did in Sonic 06.

You are right on that. Although what I said about the too-close-for-comfort world is true, I will admit the design has been made like cartoony "Pixar style", and didn't clash nearly as much as Nextgen did.

It's possible, and I know a lot of people would be impressed, even me. But despite all that, Sega has to really step things up before they even try something like that. They got it down in the Adventures and Unleashed, now they need to really work on quality to step it up a level. And something like this isn't something I would expect to get right that easily since many folks lack the skill to handle it.

I would definitely be impressed, because I would do anything for what I listed earlier. And I'm suprised you liked the idea so much.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Azukara

[DC111]

Thats why Mike Hayes has said they will be creating two different kinds of Sonic games from now on.

the Retro Plus Plus type games for the people that like the old Sonic Games (mainly adults)

and the 3D games for people who like the current games (mainly kids)

Pretty obvious you can't make both audiences happy with the same game.

Sorry, but where was this said? I don't recall...

[Phos]

He sort of said that, he said that you can't have everything that pleases both old and new fans in every game, but it really came off more like he though old fans were perfectly satisfied with repeated rereleases of the Genesis games. Another possibility is that Sonic Unleashed was aimed at least in part at older fans (it was), but it turned out they had no idea what old fans were looking for, so that could have been all he had to say at that point. Unleashed had just basically bombed (inb4 2.5 million: most of that was for Unwiished) in spite of having the largest budget of any Sonic game, and SatBK, as I said, was simply a flop.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Phos

[Arioch]

Turn-based virtual board game based in the Mushroom Kingdom Maginaryworld,

Honestly, where would you have them put it? Mushroom Kingdom is Mario Party's universe/setting. If it was more or less a rip-off they would have focused more on the Sonic universe, instead they made a dream/imaginary world as a setting. Making it more stand-offish.

the occasional mini-game,

The minigames in Sonic Shuffle weren't set up like the Mini games in Mario party. Mario Party minigames occured at the end of a turn, while Sonic Shuffle Minigames/Events occured when you triggered an event, by landing on the spaces set for it. Not to mention that Sonic Shuffle Minigames were unique in there own way. If my memory serves me correctly, none of the minigames cut/copy and paste off Mario Party.

Besides, how many party games do you know that doesn't have mini games? If it didn't have Minigames then the game itself would be bland.

Power Stars Precious Stones,

land on a red space, lose 3 coins rings, land on a blue space, gain 3 coins rings,

For the both of these I have nothing against, and they could have done better in these aspects/areas.

Bowser Eggman will show up at times to steal your coins rings, randomly generated numbers in Item Boxes Cards that move you forward...

Actually, they made this unique, except for the spaces with the pluses and minuses. Eggman had his own random theme with his mechanical roulette of numbers. Each number having it's own individual event.