Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Slashy said:

Actually if you really look at it, the only major character since the classic era to not be built as a one-shot was Cream and Cream has several unusual factors regarding her introduction as part of her role was to sell the gaming audience on Sonic X.

Yea and Cream and Cheese are among the least relevant characters in the series, even as supporting characters.

[SBR2]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yea and Cream and Cheese are among the least relevant characters in the series, even as supporting characters.

Can I be real? I've never understood their appeal. Like they're cute but people act like it's a huge slight that the 5 year old isn't regularly allowed on a battlefield in a narrative where you can't really make use of Cheese's broken as shit power.

[StaticMania]

Appeal is a word that exist.

Funny cute small innocent kid is actually a badass is pretty basic.

She can't fight tho...

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, SBR2 said:

Can I be real? I've never understood their appeal. Like they're cute but people act like it's a huge slight that the 5 year old isn't regularly allowed on a battlefield in a narrative where you can't really make use of Cheese's broken as shit power.

I don't really care much about them myself in all honesty, I'm just making a point of how neglected certain characters are when they don't have much of a niche to fill.

[Celestia]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

If it helps, Sonic Team specifically asked them to remove a panel of it being destroyed.

Yeah I remember that, but it's interesting how that might mean Ian didn't have any plans for it. I suppose it's destruction could have had ramifications of some kind?

[Slashy]

I think part of the problem with Whisper is that she is a soldier for a war no longer being fought.

If GUN ever ends up back on the table Whisper suddenly has story possibility again.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That’s a rookie number.

Nowadays, 15 is often a bare minimum when they’re starting out (not an exact figure, but an average guesstimate). And Sonic being around as long as he has been far out-paced by franchises with more than twice that number.

Not that we should want an over bloated cast size (memories of Worlds Unite coming to mind), but 10 recurring characters ain’t that friggin much these days.

 

35 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There isn't some set number of characters that's right for every series, it depends on a whole host of factors. But I feel the Sonic series has pretty consistently struggled to manage larger casts.

 

20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

As Dio said, there's no set number for how many main character a series should have, but I think its generally accepted that Sonic has done a really poor job at handling a large cast.

A large part of that is how the games in particular can really only make effective use of maybe five characters at a time. So when the cast started to get as big as it is and there was some move to have as many along for the ride as possible, something started to give.

That's also where the lack of reliable recurring antagonists comes in. 

18 minutes ago, Slashy said:

Actually if you really look at it, the only major character since the classic era to not be built as a one-shot was Cream and Cream has several unusual factors regarding her introduction as part of her goal as a character was to sell the gaming audience on Sonic X.

Part of the reason she also works is that she was conceived as a support character designed to work with the core cast of heroes.

There's also Omega and maybe the Chaotix, although they were even more of a side thing.

But yeah, Cream is the only other character outside of Sonic, Tails, and Amy that was sorta able to just pop up with little issue for a good while. The catch is she was originally intended to support Amy in particular, but that didn't really go anywhere for obvious reasons.

Also, that rumor that she was conceived for Sonic X is pretty interesting to think about.

 

 

[Slashy]

Just now, DabigRG said:

 

 

A large part of that is how the games in particular can really only make effective use of maybe five characters at a time. So when the cast started to get as big as it is and there was some move to have as many along for the ride as possible, something started to give.

That's also where the lack of reliable recurring antagonists comes in. 

There's also Omega and maybe the Chaotix, although they were even more of a side thing.

But yeah, Cream is the only other character outside of Sonic, Tails, and Amy that was sorta able to just pop up with little issue for a good while. The catch is she was originally intended to support Amy in particular, but that didn't really go anywhere for obvious reasons.

Also, that rumor that she was conceived for Sonic X is pretty interesting to think about.

 

 

That's a rumor? I could have sworn that was her purpose.

[DabigRG]

10 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Yeah I remember that, but it's interesting how that might mean Ian didn't have any plans for it. I suppose it's destruction could have had ramifications of some kind?

Your guess is as good mine.

Like it was obviously a unique gimmick for Starline to make use of and getting rid of it inherently depowered him enough to require a new direction, but still.

1 minute ago, Slashy said:

That's a rumor? I could have sworn that was her purpose.

As far as I know, that and her allegedly being in 06 at one point are rumors.

She was explicitly created for Heroes with a lot of leadtime to show up in other things, which is obvious when looking at her concept art.

That said, X did put quite a bit of thought in how it used her and I recall hearing it stated development as far back as 1998.

[Razule]

20 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I suppose it's destruction could have had ramifications of some kind?

Something dumb, like showing it being broken on-screen might encourage children to break jewlery.

[Kuzu]

At the end of the day, Sonic is always going to be the main and central character of the series. So a good supporting character kind of needs some sort of dynamic and relationship with him to really remain relevant without raising any eyebrows. But then that's just limiting the scope of the entire series and revolving everything around Sonic.

I feel like this was much less of an issue in Archie when the world was much wider and there was more things happening than what whatever was going on with Sonic. You had the Freedom Fighters, and the different configurations of that across the globe, the Echidna groups, the different Egg Bosses/Grandmasters, etc etc. It really felt like a large world that the characters lived in, rather than everything being about the important characters. Of course this meant the game characters would occasionally get lost in the shuffle, but I didn't really mind????

 

The big thing in IDW is that since it's like the games, it has to revolve every plot point around Sonic and his immediate circle in some way; hence why Tails is the only character who ever feels relevant at any given time being Sonic's closest ally. This is why Whisper and Starline probably stand out from the other OC's, because their story arcs don't completely revolve around Sonic (Well in Starline's case, his revolves around Eggman but Bad Guys shows he can work on his own from either of them).

 

So I'd say the best way for the game cast and new characters to stand out is to let them stand on their own without having to be subservient to Sonic or Eggman. Otherwise, they're just gonna be thrown in the shuffle with the rest of the supporting cast. Starline, Surge and Kit at least have being villains on their side, but it's still kind of the same issue as their motivations and personality revolve around more important characters. 

[Red Hot Jack]

9 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Afaik, Starline is evidently a fully original character that just so happened to have Finitevus and Snively vibes by virtue of the broad net his design/role covers. He actually has more in with Maw.

Did you actually read anything from Archie or is that just the bare minimum secondhand?

I just think Starline is getting used better than those examples, and yeah I said he's inspired, has elements that lead him to be a mix of those characters.

For the billionth time, I'm not against Archie, I read issues 1-50, some of the later ones, the golden age pre-reboot era by Ian (and drawn by Yardley), all of the reboot and Universe. I really liked it at the time, especially the golden age and the reboot (including Universe), I liked the "expansive cast and universe" although it was too much at times, too much to read, too many characters and ideas that were ultimately scrapped for lawsuit and copyright reasons, so it's not the book's fault but the ideas were still dropped, in the reboot everything was dropped too soon sadly - yeah, that was a waste. I also did not like the Freedom Fighters being the only thing carried on to the reboot, it just annoyed me, so I'm glad in the end, that they aren't back here. Frankly I think a lot of the Archie OCs were better than the FFs, both continuities, Lien-Da, Enerjak, Mina, NICOLE as an original character and not the portable version, the Egg Bosses, the aquatic characters, Eclipse, Scourge, Shard. 

That's what I think about Archie, it's my position, liked it at the time but right now I think it's forgotten, dated, overcomplicated and had too many things going on, and just not my idea of "Sonic" anymore because I'm more a fan of the game continuity, this is why I pushed for at least a "game-like" comic book... which is IDW (at the moment). Also, it has been a long time since I read it bar the reboot, I'm starting to forget most things, a bit like the FFs and their memories after issue 252, I forget those things happened.

 

8 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Can I be real? I've never understood their appeal. Like they're cute but people act like it's a huge slight that the 5 year old isn't regularly allowed on a battlefield in a narrative where you can't really make use of Cheese's broken as shit power.

Cream still fits in the series more than Big, who I find to be the most out of place of the bunch, yeah Cream refuses to fight and makes Cheese do all the work, but she's a pacifist and that is interesting, however when you push her she still fights for what's right, she's very brave too.

IMO Cream was made for Sonic X and Heroes as a tie-in but ended up debuting in Advance 2. It's pretty clear for me she was the Sticks of X. Although it was never confirmed but the fact that she was Sonic X comic exclusive for some time also gave the idea.

I'm... not a fan of Cream though in general, but yeah I do like what IDW did with her, they treated her like an actual character for once, and not a supporting role or cameo.

Returning to IDW, I still think it's too early to judge Surge and Kit because they were literally in 1 issue so far, but yeah I'm sure they will be relevant for some time until their arc is over, post issue 50, just like Belle, she fits in these low stakes stories right now, and has an arc, until that isn't over she will stick around.

I also really like Ian and Evan's approach in this comic, the long term payoff plan really did more harm than good in Archie, I want things to move faster so yeah, stories that resolve within 1 year are great, plus interconnected ideas between seasons... we've had those in IDW, we have had Silver's metallic future in season 1, Omega broken into pieces that opens season 3, the loose Zeti as well got resolved later, Belle's backstory which was connected to both previous seasons. I would say there is decent connection throughout the comic book.

 

 

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

As Dio said, there's no set number for how many main character a series should have, but I think its generally accepted that Sonic has done a really poor job at handling a large cast.

With the common exception being the comic series for the past decade.

Can we not go in circles over the cast size? We’re not in a topic about the games here.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

 Also, it has been a long time since I read it bar the reboot, I'm starting to forget most things, a bit like the FFs and their memories after issue 252, I forget those things happened.

Ah, there's the answer to the question I asked! Took a minute to get there, but here it is!

2 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

 

It's pretty clear for me she was the Sticks of X. Although it was never confirmed but the fact that she was Sonic X comic exclusive for some time also gave the idea.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking too!

She was actually better incorporated than Sticks technically, but even when it was 8 or 9, something about the way Cream was incorporated just made me hone in on her as somehow special. 

2 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

Returning to IDW, I 

I also really like Ian and Evan's approach in this comic, the long term payoff plan really did more harm than good in Archie, I want things to move faster so yeah, stories that resolve within 1 year are great, plus interconnected ideas between seasons... we've had those in IDW, we have had Silver's metallic future in season 1, Omega broken into pieces that opens season 3, the loose Zeti as well got resolved later, Belle's backstory which was connected to both previous seasons. I would say there is decent connection throughout the comic book.

Uuuh...give or take.

There's some things in IDW where them not being able to plan or do more caused some issues.

[Red Hot Jack]

39 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Ah, there's the answer to the question I asked! Took a minute to get there, but here it is!

Lmao, sorry for the big wall of text. I have a lot to say on both comics. 

[Slashy]

3 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

I just think Starline is getting used better than those examples, and yeah I said he's inspired, has elements that lead him to be a mix of those characters.

For the billionth time, I'm not against Archie, I read issues 1-50, some of the later ones, the golden age pre-reboot era by Ian (and drawn by Yardley), all of the reboot and Universe. I really liked it at the time, especially the golden age and the reboot (including Universe), I liked the "expansive cast and universe" although it was too much at times, too much to read, too many characters and ideas that were ultimately scrapped for lawsuit and copyright reasons, so it's not the book's fault but the ideas were still dropped, in the reboot everything was dropped too soon sadly - yeah, that was a waste. I also did not like the Freedom Fighters being the only thing carried on to the reboot, it just annoyed me, so I'm glad in the end, that they aren't back here. Frankly I think a lot of the Archie OCs were better than the FFs, both continuities, Lien-Da, Enerjak, Mina, NICOLE as an original character and not the portable version, the Egg Bosses, the aquatic characters, Eclipse, Scourge, Shard. 

That's what I think about Archie, it's my position, liked it at the time but right now I think it's forgotten, dated, overcomplicated and had too many things going on, and just not my idea of "Sonic" anymore because I'm more a fan of the game continuity, this is why I pushed for at least a "game-like" comic book... which is IDW (at the moment). Also, it has been a long time since I read it bar the reboot, I'm starting to forget most things, a bit like the FFs and their memories after issue 252, I forget those things happened.

 

Cream still fits in the series more than Big, who I find to be the most out of place of the bunch, yeah Cream refuses to fight and makes Cheese do all the work, but she's a pacifist and that is interesting, however when you push her she still fights for what's right, she's very brave too.

IMO Cream was made for Sonic X and Heroes as a tie-in but ended up debuting in Advance 2. It's pretty clear for me she was the Sticks of X. Although it was never confirmed but the fact that she was Sonic X comic exclusive for some time also gave the idea.

I'm... not a fan of Cream though in general, but yeah I do like what IDW did with her, they treated her like an actual character for once, and not a supporting role or cameo.

Returning to IDW, I still think it's too early to judge Surge and Kit because they were literally in 1 issue so far, but yeah I'm sure they will be relevant for some time until their arc is over, post issue 50, just like Belle, she fits in these low stakes stories right now, and has an arc, until that isn't over she will stick around.

I also really like Ian and Evan's approach in this comic, the long term payoff plan really did more harm than good in Archie, I want things to move faster so yeah, stories that resolve within 1 year are great, plus interconnected ideas between seasons... we've had those in IDW, we have had Silver's metallic future in season 1, Omega broken into pieces that opens season 3, the loose Zeti as well got resolved later, Belle's backstory which was connected to both previous seasons. I would say there is decent connection throughout the comic book.

 

 

 

I hate the connectivity. It feels rather forced and feels like a method to artificially make the stories seem grander than they actually are.

It is my biggest problem with this comic, outside of the annuals no story is allowed to stand on its own. It needs to constantly reference a plot before or hint at a plot in the future.

[Red Hot Jack]

The stories do stand on their own, connectivity is really a non issue, it's a way to make the storytelling less static and more fluid. I mean storytelling in general stopped being episodic and autoconclusive in comics a long time ago. Even movies are connected in trilogies. Lost invented serialized TV in 2004 too. I really think standalone stories are outdated since the 2000s, If anything the comic should be bigger and more connected.

[Slashy]

6 minutes ago, Red Hot Jack said:

The stories do stand on their own, connectivity is really a non issue, it's a way to make the storytelling less static and more fluid. I mean storytelling in general stopped being episodic and autoconclusive in comics a long time ago. Even movies are connected in trilogies. Lost invented serialized TV in 2004 too. I really think standalone stories are outdated since the 2000s, If anything the comic should be bigger and more connected.

What is the comic really accomplishing by trying to connect everything together? It seems like it constantly introduces some big arc because things HAVE to be connected somehow even though this comic will never end and any attempt to change the status quo is laughable.

Just because others do it doesn't mean that Sonic has to do it, comics have come out still that are largely self-contained and have been successful and that is still the model for many cartoons. It is the model the games and all the cartoons have operated on for this entire franchise.

It should have been clear after Metal Virus arc that trying to build up huge stories would only let down the audience as there couldn't be any major lasting consequences.

[Kuzu]

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

With the common exception being the comic series for the past decade.

Can we not go in circles over the cast size? We’re not in a topic about the games here.

I mean the comic is structuring itself like the games, so its pretty relevant imo.

[Wraith]

54 minutes ago, Slashy said:

What is the comic really accomplishing by trying to connect everything together? It seems like it constantly introduces some big arc because things HAVE to be connected somehow even though this comic will never end and any attempt to change the status quo is laughable.

Just because others do it doesn't mean that Sonic has to do it, comics have come out still that are largely self-contained and have been successful and that is still the model for many cartoons. It is the model the games and all the cartoons have operated on for this entire franchise.

It should have been clear after Metal Virus arc that trying to build up huge stories would only let down the audience as there couldn't be any major lasting consequences.

I agree that we need more one off stories, but I think another solution for stuff like metal virus is to let there be more lasting consequences, and I'm not even talking about grim consequences like death either. Maybe the world has permanently changed in some way. Maybe a character discovered a new power during the ordeal that they can use now. Maybe it's purely psychological.

I thought Sonic getting "Mr. Tinkered" was interesting and was a little bummed out how fast things snapped back into place after. Just giving us some time with the fallout before slowly easing us back to the status quo would help a lot I think.

[Slashy]

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I agree that we need more one off stories, but I think another solution for stuff like metal virus is to let there be more lasting consequences, and I'm not even talking about grim consequences like death either. Maybe the world has permanently changed in some way. Maybe a character discovered a new power during the ordeal that they can use now. Maybe it's purely psychological.

I thought Sonic getting "Mr. Tinkered" was interesting and was a little bummed out how fast things snapped back into place after. Just giving us some time with the fallout before slowly easing us back to the status quo would help a lot I think.

I assume most of those lasting consequences are heavily restricted by SEGA. You likely can't make any major changes to the world or core cast and probably not even much with the comic exclusive characters.

I like episodic storytelling a lot, I think it is great for Sonic, but I believe heavily in it being the best course of action for this comic because it seems to be the easiest way to follow the rules SEGA lays out for this comic.

[Razule]

They need to establish more of a world existing before they can start doing world-changing events.

The thing is IDW is both the games' world, and also not. They can't contradict it, so that must limit worldbuilding. 

[Kuzu]

13 minutes ago, Slashy said:

I assume most of those lasting consequences are heavily restricted by SEGA. You likely can't make any major changes to the world or core cast and probably not even much with the comic exclusive characters.

I like episodic storytelling a lot, I think it is great for Sonic, but I believe heavily in it being the best course of action for this comic because it seems to be the easiest way to follow the rules SEGA lays out for this comic.

If there's anything this fanbase has been complaining about with the games in the last decade, its how the series no longer feels like a serialized epic and how every game is just self contained with no lasting consequences between the games.

One of the reasons IDW is so popular among the fandom is that it is the last bit of Sonic media to be serialized like this.

I can't imagine a switch to a more episodic "Monster of the Week" style would go over that well.

 

That and I think that's just how Western comics are published. They have to keep readers invested to buy the next issue on a monthly basis. Hence why almost every issue ends in cliffhanger. Its by design.

[Slashy]

11 minutes ago, Razule said:

They need to establish more of a world existing before they can start doing world-changing events.

The thing is IDW is both the games' world, and also not. They can't contradict it, so that must limit worldbuilding. 

I actually wonder if world building new locations that will never affect anything from the games would be a problem.

[Slashy]

23 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If there's anything this fanbase has been complaining about with the games in the last decade, its how the series no longer feels like a serialized epic and how every game is just self contained with no lasting consequences between the games.

One of the reasons IDW is so popular among the fandom is that it is the last bit of Sonic media to be serialized like this.

I can't imagine a switch to a more episodic "Monster of the Week" style would go over that well.

It is what the games have operated on most of the time. Hell in the history of the franchise the only media to be heavily serialized was the comics as even Sonic X was primarily made up of monster of the week plots even in the Metarex arc (though heavily downplayed).

Sure the games might be so self-contained now that they may as well exist in continuites but let's not pretend that there was any real attempt at an ongoing plot pre-Colors beyond Shadow's story.