Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[FriendBot]

I wouldn't say Sonic is smart but he's quick to adapt to any given situation. The two are not interchangeable 

[Osmium]

Yeah, I'd say Sonic is more crafty than anything. He's really only got average intelligence but is also a quick thinker which is frankly required in the situations he's in. 

Sonic's not exactly the sort of guy I'd expect to have a huge vocabulary with lots of "complicated" words in it. 

[Kintor]

20 minutes ago, Soni said:

I wouldn't say Sonic is smart but he's quick to adapt to any given situation. The two are not interchangeable 

In addition to having a quick wit; the ability to swiftly analyse a situation with all its variables and then decide on a course of action is also an indication of considerable intelligence. People tend to dismiss the importance of being able talk as an intelligent talent because nearly everyone has the ability to talk at some capacity. But not so long ago things were different; there use to be formal schools of rhetoric, following the example set by the ancient Greeks and Romans, where the ability to talk and talk well was recognised as an intelligent talent that needed fostering with further education. As a character Sonic is a great example of this intelligence, being able to quickly synthesise new language in response to anything he hears. The occasional bigger word is used for added affect and emphasis, like a trump card that Sonic intelligently play at a key moment.

[StaticMania]

24 minutes ago, Soni said:

That's too far into the other spectrum 

I mean, it was already weird how jovial Sonic when he pretty much killed King Arthur (before he realized he was a fake all along)

Why take it a step further?

That was an actual quote, so it was already taken that far...

[Osmium]

11 minutes ago, Kintor said:

As a character Sonic is a great example of this intelligence, being able to quickly synthesise new language in response to anything he hears. The occasional bigger word is used for added affect and emphasis, like a trump card that Sonic intelligently play at a key moment.

What are you even talking about? Sonic is an intelligent character because he can respond to people? You mean like just about any cartoon or video game character? Christ. 

[Kintor]

12 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

What are you even talking about? Sonic is an intelligent character because he can respond to people? You mean like just about any cartoon or video game character? Christ. 

Anyone can talk, but to talk back sarcastically and with a bit of insightful wit takes more intelligence. What I'm saying is that Sonic Forces needs smart writers to properly bring-out this more subtle aspect of Sonic's character; that 'gift of the gab' which makes Sonic a charismatic hero. A big word here and there is perfectly in keeping with Sonic's dialogue, because it's actually a clever rhetorical trick that Sonic can use to surprise people by saying something pointed they wouldn't otherwise expect.

[StaticMania]

17 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

What are you even talking about? Sonic is an intelligent character because he can respond to people? You mean like just about any cartoon or video game character? Christ. 

I think the idea that's trying to be reached is that Sonic is good at making quips...

 

This rarely ever happens even if it's true...

[Osmium]

I don't think this is something that's really been missing though. Lost World had Sonic making quips left and right to everyone and that was written by Pontac and Graff. And that game out of all of them was one where Sonic's actions were questioned a lot of the time too, he wasn't thinking about the implications of his actions in that game. Just saying. He may be good at making quips but he's still not extremely intelligent. 

I just don't know why you need Sonic saying big words in a quip to surprise people. His quips were cheesy but mostly fine in Lost World and they all worked without large "complicated" words. 

[Kintor]

40 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

I just don't know why you need Sonic saying big words in a quip to surprise people. His quips were cheesy but mostly fine in Lost World and they all worked without large "complicated" words. 

Look back at the beginning of this conversation, Soni argues that Sonic shouldn’t be allowed to use 'formal words' in his dialogue; I argue that this places a needless restriction on the story in Sonic games and actually isn't in keeping with Sonic's character. Because there's more to Sonic's witty dialogue then just quips, it's Sonic's ability to turn around an entire conversation in a short space of time. Sprinkling a few bigger (or 'complicated') words into the conversation helps to keep the dialogue fresh and snappy. This is something that Pontac and Graff never got right, they made everyone in Lost World sound like ignorant morons and the story suffered as a result. Good witty dialogue for Sonic requires more skill then Pontac and Graff are evidently capable of providing.

[StaticMania]

18 minutes ago, Kintor said:

 Because there's more to Sonic's witty dialogue then just quips, it's Sonic's ability to turn around an entire conversation in a short space of time. Sprinkling a few bigger (or 'complicated') words into the conversation helps to keep the dialogue fresh and snappy.

Sonic literally never does anything like this, so where did this idea of him being clever, witty, smartmouthed guy even come from? He never acts witty, he never really makes clever retorts...it's all pretty typical stuff.

 

Character interactions in this series have not been handled in such a way (not even in spin-offs). Surprisingly Sonic and Eggman verbal interactions didn't even ever last that long...so they didn't have many back and forths either. 

[Kintor]

11 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Sonic literally never does anything like this, so where did this idea of him being clever, witty, smartmouthed guy even come from? He never acts witty, he never really makes clever retorts...it's all pretty typical stuff.

It's a 90s thing, being a sarcastic hero with witty retorts is what a good 90s hero should do. Sonic the Hedgehog is no expectation, especially in other media like the comics and cartoons which helped to bring out Sonic's snarky attitude. Heck, even TV commercials helped to empathise this aspect of Sonic's personality, being able to use Sonic’s wit as a way to mock the competition was all part of Sega's in-your-face 90s marketing. But Pontac and Graff never paid much attention to the history of the Sonic franchise, they did their own thing and as a result in Lost World we're left with this warped imitation of what a good Sonic story should be. The Sonic franchise deserves better writers then Pontac and Graff, somebody smart enough to make the witty and sarcastic dialogue really stand out, to make Sonic a cool character with attitude once again.

[StaticMania]

18 minutes ago, Kintor said:

It's a 90s thing, being a sarcastic hero with witty retorts is what a good 90s hero should do.

Sonic the Hedgehog should be...Spiderman the human?

[Shadowlax]

9 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Sonic the Hedgehog should be...Spiderman the human?

No, because spidernan is actually smart. And his cockyness is less cockyness and more " i'm making jokes because this is actually horrifying ", you know interesting character traits and flaws, those things sonic in game mostly doesn't have. And I don't know if sega could get off their horse to give any that actually mean anything 

[StaticMania]

Looks like someone wants a complete change in writing style...something that'll get Sonic out of the purely average (at best) side of entertaining stories, and more character focused stuff.

 

Character psyche focus...even if it's not at all necessary.

[Celestia]

I guess my take is that Sonic is essentially a teenage superhero. If anything, I'm surprised he doesn't spout cheesy superhero speech more often.

Granted, it kinda depends on context. If he said something like "fiend" seriously it'd feel off, but if he was joking around, sure. Like if Eggman was saying some stereotypical villain stuff (which happens a lot, mind you) and Sonic responded by being equally cheesy. Outside of a situation like that I think he's more likely to just call villains jerks or somethin'.

....Though I wouldn't say "madman" is too formal but like Jez said on the last page that might just be because I think of those memes aldjalkjaklfjlkf

[Bowbowis]

The thing with "madman" is that it's just really awkward to say in the second person. Like, if Sonic were describing Eggman to somebody else and called him "a complete and utter madman", that would sound pretty natural. On the other hand, if Eggman does something particularly dastardly and Sonic followed up by yelling "You madman!" at him, that would sound rather forced, particularly when more natural sounding alternatives like "You're insane!" or "You monster!" exist.

[StaticMania]

That doesn't sound forced...like most lines, it's all about delivery.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Sonic literally never does anything like this, so where did this idea of him being clever, witty, smartmouthed guy even come from? He never acts witty, he never really makes clever retorts...it's all pretty typical stuff.

Not to be a dick, but...what?!

The heck you mean Sonic never does that? He always done that--he's done that since the 90s.

Sonic being a clever, witty, smartmouth was one of the pillars of his characterization of him being this character with an attitude. How do you think he was acting in the cartoons everytime he threw an insult to Robotnik while he was ruining his plans, calling him things like "Ro-butt-nik" and "Eggbelly"? How do you think he was acting when he called Eggman "a giant talking egg" in SA1? What was he when he was jumping out of a heavily armed military helicopter, quipping it a low budget flight with no food or movies before jumping off at thousands of feet in the air with a makeshift snowboard on to concrete in his escape? And he doesn't even stop there, making witty remarks about things like Eggman's hairline in Colors, and how it would be the end of the world if he were working with Eggman in Lost Worlds.

He makes snaps whenever the opportunity presents itself, calling Knuckles a Knucklehead, Shadow a fake hedgehog, Chaos a big drip, and more. That's what being a clever, witty, smartmouth is.

[Diogenes]

33 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Sonic being a clever, witty, smartmouth was one of the pillars of his characterization of him being this character with an attitude. How do you think he was acting in the cartoons everytime he threw an insult to Robotnik while he was ruining his plans, calling him things like "Ro-butt-nik" and "Eggbelly"?

Is "Robuttnik" really witty, though?

I feel Sonic's less a master of wit and more a mouthy punk.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Is "Robuttnik" really witty, though?

Yes? Do you even know what "witty" means?

 

[Diogenes]

Just now, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Yes? Do you even know what "witty" means?

Well I usually associate the phrase with some degree of creativity and cleverness, not just putting "butt" in a guy's name.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Well I usually associate the phrase with some degree of creativity and cleverness, not just putting "butt" in a guy's name.

Well that's a pretty narrow association for a term with rather broad usage.

[Diogenes]

Take it up with the dictionary, if you want; just about every definition I've found describes it as being "inventive" or "clever".

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Take it up with the dictionary, if you want; just about every definition I've found describes it as being "inventive" or "clever".

I did, it also adds "humor" to its definition.

Doesn't change the fact that Sonic does indeed have a sense of wit to him, even if you want to cherry pick my examples you think he isn't.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I did, it also adds "humor" to its definition.

Yeah but not all jokes are witty. It needs to be funny and clever to be witty. Calling someone a butt is funny, but I wouldn't call it clever.

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Doesn't change the fact that Sonic does indeed have a sense of wit to him.

Some, maybe, but I'd still say he leans more towards mouthy punk than master of wit.