Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Bowbowis]

This is literally storytelling 101, the absolute basic things you need to get ANYONE invested in your setting or characters...but apparently, its still "too much" for some people. Its just...."Buh whaaaa". Either my definition of "storytelling 101" is off or people really have low standards for the base writing quality for this series.

It's the latter in my experience and it doesn't just apply to story either, it extends into gameplay as well. Sonic Generations featured no camera control, the inability to easily move your character in 360 degrees, level design so linear you might as well be on rails, no plot to speak of, and a total run time of around 2-3 hours; for a 3D game released by a big name publisher in 2011 that ought to be completely unacceptable, yet despite that I still see people defending it as the gold standard for the series. It's ridiculous! We are not asking SEGA perform miracles by demanding games with greater substance; we are asking them to adhere the most basic standards of quality that should be expected of any and all videogame developers in this day and age, both in terms of gameplay and story.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear I don't hate Generations, it's a fine game but it plays things far too safe. The fact that the game needlessly omits such basic mechanics as camera control and unhindered movement in all directions reeks of a development team that has absolutely zero confidence in it's ability to create a decent game without keeping the player on an incredibly short leash. Rather than actually affording the player full control within the game world Generations instead uses an "instant gratification button" (the boost) to provide some cheep thrills while overemphasizing style at the expense of substance. It's fun, don't get me wrong, but it's ultimately just bread and circuses, far from the series fullest potential.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Bowbowis

[NoirSuede]

It's the latter in my experience and it doesn't just apply to story either, it extends into gameplay as well. Sonic Generations featured no camera control, the inability to easily move your character in 360 degrees, level design so linear you might as well be on rails, no plot to speak of, and a total run time of around 2-3 hours; for a 3D game released by a big name publisher in 2011 that ought to be completely unacceptable, yet despite that I still see people defending it as the gold standard for the series. It's ridiculous! We are not asking SEGA perform miracles by demanding games with greater substance; we are asking them to adhere the most basic standards of quality that should be expected of any and all videogame developers in this day and age, both in terms of gameplay and story.

 This is why Lost World was the way it is, Sonic Team knew that the Boost formula was unsustainable in the long run even with gimmicks like the Werehog because of the fact that levels in the Boost formula have to be as large as 10 levels in other games in order to keep the completion time of those levels above 3 minutes, so with Lost World Sonic Team was trying to find a new formula that's more sustainable economically while also yielding a sane completion time (about 6-7 hours), with mixed results.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I am curious how Pontac's and Graff's critics view the writing in games like Shadow/2k6/etc.* Do you find this sort of writing preferable, or equally undesirable, or what? I only ask this because their writing style seems like a deliberate departure from the stories in these games, to distance the series as much as possible from them. So I am curious about how people who are dissatisfied with Pontac/Graff view the writing on the opposite end of the spectrum.

*You'll notice I didn't lump SA2 in with those, because I don't feel it veered into "dark and edgy" territory, and used its dark themes with some degree of nuance and restraint.

Well
1) A badly executed drama story is better then a bad executed comedy.
Sonic 06 is endlessly fascinating to try and untangle and Shadow's game is a comedy goldmine.
I go into that game with a Naked Gun mentality and I'm having the time of my life.
While Pontaff is giving me little but irritation.
It's not even fun to disesemble and look for plotholes, because nobody cares, the story evaporates into nothingness before anything could happen. There's no structure or meaning to anything.

Oh no, Yacker is missing!!! Oh, he's back I guess.
Woa, Eggman is pissed at the Deadly Six!!!!... And, uh... nothing.
Gasp! Amy's captured by Lyric and he's going to hurt her unless she reveals the TERRIBLE SECRETS OF THE SHATTERED CRYSTAL!!
Or....Uh, not, they're just exchanging jokes.
It's like a pointless slideshow of ideas.

At least when 06 or Shadow throw up stupid ideas, it'll lead to something.
Something stupid, sure, but SOMETHING nonetheless.


2) And besides that, at least both Shadow and 06 provide Energy.
There's bad guys, there's music, there's danger, there's set pieces.
The only really BAD BAD thing of the 2 games in terms of story is Sonic's behaviour and Elise in Sonic 06 because it's so out of place in a adreline pumped action story, but anything else, awkward, silly and stupid as they are, at least keep the energy of the gameplay going.
During the finales of those games I feel like a hero saving the world, where in the Pontaff games I feel like a grumpy teenager forced to wake up from bed because mom calls him to do the dishes.
"It's like it's my job or something."


So don't get me wrong, I don't necesairely want the Sonic games to go into this direction again, it's the Other extreme and will damage Sonic's reputation further.
But y'know, it's like climbing a freezing mountain and you're cold. And then you're instantly teleported to a scorching desert.
At first you're happy but after a decade of melting in the desert, you're starting to long for the freezing snow again.
Of course being teleported to a comfortable tropical paradise resort would be the best, but alas.
Scorching desert or freezing mountain it is.
But hey, if you spend one day in the desert and one day on the mountain, constantly switching, it might work.
So hey, splitting up the Sonic series so we get a little of both energies in turns, could work?
But alas, Sonic Boom is more of the same.

...Altough much better written.
At least the Boom writers can write more types of characters, are able to set up and pay off a joke, have some sort of structure to their plots and once every 20 episodes they remember it's an action show and have a near decent action sequence.
So yeah, Boom's at least evidence Pontaff are partly to blame for Sonic's direction as better writers can at least make it a lot less painful.
But still. Boom's not quite providing the adreline pumping action hero we desperatly need now.

So yeah, a well balanced Sonic story that has the brevity and to-the-point attitude of the classics, Character depth, energy and universe context of the adventures and the willingness to laugh at yourself and more natural dialogue of the modern games would be great.

But like our hypothetical teleporté sweating in the desert, I have to admit even a new Shadow the hedgehog seems tempting now, if only as counter energy for this eternal "I don't care about anything. Laugh at how lame everything is." attitude that's chocking the series now.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Roger_van_der_weide

[pppp]

level design so linear you might as well be on rails

Oh come on, don't exaggerate things, the level design in Generations was the first time since 1994 that we actually got level design that captures the alternate path philosophy of the classics. You're telling me Seaside Hill and Sky Sanctuary Modern's level design is on rails linear? Then what are Unleashed's day stages?

[StaticMania]

 You're telling me Seaside Hill and Sky Sanctuary Modern's level design is on rails linear? Then what are Unleashed's day stages?

They'd be interactive cutscenes.

[Bowbowis]

Oh come on, don't exaggerate things, the level design in Generations was the first time since 1994 that we actually got level design that captures the alternate path philosophy of the classics. You're telling me Seaside Hill and Sky Sanctuary Modern's level design is on rails linear?

Taking a side path for five seconds to shave a bit off your time before getting spat back out onto the main road is nowhere close to the kinds of branching paths you saw in the classics or even parts of SA1. Still perhaps linear isn't the right word, "narrow" might be a better description, the game spends so much time in cramped hallways that I sometimes question why it even bothers to pretend that I have freedom of movement rather than simply dropping the pretense an limiting control like Black Knight. But I digress, this is a thread about writing, not gameplay.

 

Then what are Unleashed's day stages?

Hard. 

Edited October 2, 2015 by Bowbowis

[Kuzu]

I am curious how Pontac's and Graff's critics view the writing in games like Shadow/2k6/etc.* Do you find this sort of writing preferable, or equally undesirable, or what? I only ask this because their writing style seems like a deliberate departure from the stories in these games, to distance the series as much as possible from them. So I am curious about how people who are dissatisfied with Pontac/Graff view the writing on the opposite end of the spectrum.

*You'll notice I didn't lump SA2 in with those, because I don't feel it veered into "dark and edgy" territory, and used its dark themes with some degree of nuance and restraint.

I never did address this question did I?

Anyway, I kinda feel like your view is too limited here? Like, this isn't about games being too serious or too lighthearted (note how we constantly praise games like Unleashed despite being nowhere near as dramatic or dark for the most part), its about having any sort of tension or consequences. I see people equate preference for the prior writing as wanting things to be "super serious and grim dark" and its hilariously frustrating how people misconstruct that.

But since you want me to compare and contrast those specific games, sure I'll bite. While I don't have a high opinion of Shadow or 06 as far as writing goes, the writing is at least appropriate for an Action-Adventure series such as this one. Remember when "I mentioned a few posts ago about "Storytelling 101" , yea well those games at least did try to do that; it was a poor effort all the same, but fuck it tried. Colors or Generations actively goes out of its way of not adding any sort of tension; no stakes, no character growth, nothing. Its just a hollow void of jokes. And don't get me wrong, I love seeing Sonic & Tails bro it up as much as the next guy, or Dr. Eggman hamming it up, but I'd much rather watch that in addition to the series actually trying to play its conflict seriously and have a reasonable amount of emotional investment. Which brings me to Lost World, which I would honestly put on par with the likes of Shadow & 06 ironically enough; oh yea, it definitely tried to add those stakes, tension, and character growth...but its...poor, really poor. Better than Colors or Genrations? Definitely, but still not really as good as some people would have you believe.

So yea, to sum this this up; I'm not asking for "Lord of the Rings" tier of writing, I want something that I can just care about again. And I'm sorry, I know you're a big Eggman fan and all, but seeing him just bumble around without actually accomplishing anything aside from just being an obligatory boss fight, it doesn't really endear me to him, but just makes me wonder why everyone is saying why he's been such a top tier villain lately despite evidence to the contrary. 

[Dr. Mechano]

I want to clarify that I definitely didn't intend that question to be loaded, or to imply that Pontac's and Graff's critics must necessarily like the polar opposite of their writing. I just wanted perspective on what you thought of those stories in comparison, and I definitely got what I asked for. So thanks for your responses on that.

[NoirSuede]

With all this talk about how Pontaff leaving would make the series's writing better, everyone should pay attention to Runners's cutscenes. There's no writer credited, but with Runners we can still see what direction Sonic Team wants to push Sonic in.

[azoo]

I don't feel like Runners is very representative of that at all. It's a tiny game with an excuse plot that only gets made up as it goes for the sake of being a mobile game, which is only doubled by going with a style as easily accessible as Lost World's.

That said, I wouldn't be anywhere near surprised if Sega continues to do safe, crummy stories. Once again, the problem isn't just Pontaff's fault, it's Sega's too. If not moreso, actually.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Azoo

[ZDozer]

Vertenkins has made it quite clear. I've read, like, three pages of this thread, but reading further would be going in circles because I have my opinion and Pontac and Graff, and it was never pretty.

Pontac and Graff don't know jack shit about writing for Sonic and shit, they had three big chances (Generations not counting, but as said, the dialogue are theirs) and learned no shit out of any of those.

So yeah, I have a big reason to want them replaced by someone like Ian Flynn, who actually knows Sonic and cares about the characters' personalities. God damn it, even I, a person who never really wrote any Sonic fanfic, could write better than them, and this is horrible.

Also, yeah, SEGA is at fault, but for contracting them and letting them write those stories. There is NO reason for protecting Pontac and Graff from the heat, they EARNED that heat. I also give no fuck to percentages of guilt, guilt is guilt and that's that.

I don't care about writers being japanese or american, I care about them knowing at least the fucking basics about Sonic, and not even this they knew.

Edited October 2, 2015 by ZDozer

[Kuzu]

I don't feel like Runners is very representative of that at all. It's a tiny game with an excuse plot that only gets made up as it goes for the sake of being a mobile game, which is only doubled by going with a style as easily accessible as Lost World's.

That said, I wouldn't be anywhere near surprised if Sega continues to do safe, crummy stories. Once again, the problem isn't just Pontaff's fault, it's Sega's too. If not moreso, actually.

Yea, just because Sega themselves are handling the series again doesn't suddenly mean everything is just gonna get dramatic again; at worst, things will probably get even more boring *sigh* 

[Nepenthe]

Well, at least they bothered to recognize the other characters' existence, and they did a whole bunch of really weird, left-field shit like mind-control and whatnot. It's excuse plot of course, but a bottle of water is just as appreciated as rain in a drought.

[Kuzu]

Maybe I should download runners just to alleviate myself a bit.

[SSF1991]

I remember when Colors came out people absolutely loved the writing. The brotherly relationship Sonic and Tails had was praised, the humor was praised, people loved how Sonic behaved, nothing really that negative.

Nowadays it's a damn crime for them to even think about writing for Sonic games anymore.

[ZDozer]

Things by the time they come out tend to get better reviews. It happens almost always, and because they don't tend to age well. At the time, we didn't know much about Pontac and Graff as we do now. Other cases of bad aging can include both Adventures.

Also, even then there were critics of the joke-heavy story. Don't think everyone went molten in praises.

Edited October 2, 2015 by ZDozer

[NoirSuede]

Maybe I should download runners just to alleviate myself a bit.

Please don't bitch about the micro-transanctions though, it's irritating to hear the same thing 1000000x and the micro-transanctions in Runners are standard Sega microtransanctions (if you don't believe me, go play Chain Chronicle before playing Runners) so it's unlikely they'll change it.

[Kuzu]

I remember when Colors came out people absolutely loved the writing. The brotherly relationship Sonic and Tails had was praised, the humor was praised, people loved how Sonic behaved, nothing really that negative.

Nowadays it's a damn crime for them to even think about writing for Sonic games anymore.

You should probably think about the circumstances behind all of that initial praise; the game was literally off the heels of another Monster of the Week scenario that usurped Eggman, and most of everyone was tired of that scenario. So naturally people were going to love Colors for "lightening things up". That, and honestly, had Colors just been a single event, I wouldn't be as resentful towards it, but it became the hallmark for three games afterward.

What should have just been a breather episode for the series ended up ushering in this new of "lightheartedness" that still has yet to be lifted. That and hindsight is a bitch.

 

Hell, despite be protests, I don't actually have anything against Colors by itself; I just hates what it represents.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[Nepenthe]

I remember when Colors came out people absolutely loved the writing. The brotherly relationship Sonic and Tails had was praised, the humor was praised, people loved how Sonic behaved, nothing really that negative.

Nowadays it's a damn crime for them to even think about writing for Sonic games anymore.

You'll find that a lot of Colors' praise and even reason for existence was influenced to some degree by cutting itself off from every 3D Sonic game beforehand and not doing anything offensive in order to be as superficially appealing as possible in light of the backlash against Unleashed and the worsening reputation of even the better-appreciated games like the Adventures, rendering the ability to be more critical about it at the time utterly impossible (Anyone remember when Distant J got steamrolled by everyone because he dared to suggest not that Colors was bad, but that it merely wasn't as perfect as people made it out to be? I sure do).

On top of that, a lot of the humor was actually called out at the time as being cringe-worthy such as the translation jokes, and in general the conversation was less focused on the qualities of the plot- which is where most of the criticism today is now focused- so much as it was the characterization which is still generally liked. I know I still like the way Sonic acts. But I never gave a shit about the plot because it's non-emphasized and awful.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Nepenthe

[SSF1991]

I recall criticism on Lost World's writing when it came out and a smidge for the writing for Generations but the amount of criticism for Colors' writing was very little, almost non-existent. And it wasn't because of how different it was from the other Sonic games. People seemed to be legitimately excited to play a game they thought would be fun.

I'd say that applied more so to the first impressions of Unleashed.

Edited October 2, 2015 by SSF1991

[TCB]

I recall criticism on Lost World's writing when it came out and a smidge for the writing for Generations but the amount of criticism for Colors' writing was very little, almost non-existent. And it wasn't because of how different it was from the other Sonic games. People seemed to be legitimately excited to play a game they thought would be fun.

The way I see it; times, viewpoints and perspectives change. May not be a good answer but I'm willing to stick by it in a general sense.

Edited October 2, 2015 by TCB

[SSF1991]

Pretty much.

It really does feel like SEGA just can't win. There's always going to be something.

[FriendBot]

I recall criticism on Lost World's writing when it came out and a smidge for the writing for Generations but the amount of criticism for Colors' writing was very little, almost non-existent. And it wasn't because of how different it was from the other Sonic games. People seemed to be legitimately excited to play a game they thought would be fun.

I guess it helps that the opening for Colors still showed us Sonic being the action hero he always while still being pretty comedic as well, I guess it was all a blur when we first played through and loved it since there's no bullshit medal-collecting or Werehog, no more melodramatic stories and being a simple fun game, "back to Sonic's roots" as they say.

But as people always say Donnie, opinions can change over time and let's say Colors hasn't really hold up that great in the writing department. Eggman and the bromance are probably the best parts of the story but that's kind of it, though the ending was pretty nice as well.

[Nepenthe]

Sega could win if they actually put out a game whose mechanics were actually competitive with the likes of Mario, Donkey Kong, and Rayman.

[NoirSuede]

Sega could win if they actually put out a game whose mechanics were actually competitive with the likes of Mario, Donkey Kong, and Rayman.

How much research time does Sega need to do that though ?